Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version] [Difficulty: Medium]

[IchoTolot]

Here is the next bunch. 20 more replays from rank 2.

More specific comments after I had time to finish the rank.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the replays, IchoTolot! The majority is still as intended. Though this is probably going to change, at the latest once you get past the point up to which Colorful Arty has played so far, which is the end of the Diva rank.

There seems to be something broken with the pickup skills from the GigaLem Tree-Mod tileset: Bomber pickup skills get incorrectly displayed as Stoner pickups, Cloner pickup skills are depicted as empty pickup skills (i.e. ones that have already been collected). Consequently, the Cloners cannot be collected, and thus, your replay of Amateur 13, "Ayo Technology" (as well as mine), fails.

This definitely wasn't the case when I tested the New-Formats version of this level. This replay in particular was just recently created, because "Ayo Technology" is a radiation level in the original version of the pack.

Maybe this has something to do with the removal of support for custom pickup skills? Then again, I still have the stable 12.6.5 version, so this shouldn't be a problem, but for some reason, it is... maybe the official styles download got changed in this regard?

Apart from that, on your single solutions:

Spoiler

Amateur 03, "Walking on sunshine": This is the talisman solution that avoids using any Walkers. I'm going to try to re-enable all the talismans in the next update, which is going to be for the stable version 12.7.

Amateur 06, "Cliffs of Dover": Nice, I didn't know it was possible to avoid using the Climbers! I actually like that, though, the level was originally just about creative skills, and then I felt there wasn't a way of doing it without the Climbers. So now, the main thing to find out here is how to keep the lemmings from climbing over the stack on the right at the end. This can either be done by placing a Stoner there and using the Climbers - or by going with a Stacker and avoiding the Climbers entirely.

Amateur 08, "Who let the dogs out?": A valid alternative solution, uses all the skills.

Amateur 09, "Greensleeves": This is another talisman solution, because it uses the Stacker-Stoner trick introduced previously on the Noisemaker rank by "Rock, Paper, Scissors" (Noisemaker 38).

Amateur 12, "Smoke on the water": This is somewhat of a backroute, platforming over the palm tree to avoid bombing down. But I don't see a way of preventing this without employing massive amounts of steel or fire areas. So I think I'll just leave it as it is, it's not like you've completely broken the level...

Amateur 14, "Meet me halfway": Ah, great, now I finally don't feel quite as bad about this level anymore, knowing that you don't necessarily have to make two Miners pass through each other with very precise timing to solve it. You still used all the skills, so I don't see what else I should ask for.

Amateur 16, "Slide it in": Interesting place to trap the Floaters. This is much more convenient than the intended solution, which has the Floaters create a straight wall of Stoners, which the Gliders then bump again at just the right angle to sail into the exit while the Floaters fall down straight into the exit. Trapping the crowd somewhere and then gliding over the barrier from above is something I like to use myself on other levels, though, and indeed, you've already done so as part of the intended solution on "How to save a life" from the Noisemaker rank.
So again, another valid alternative solution that actually seems less fiddly to execute than the intended one. I'm always happy about those, because it means people can no longer accuse me of execution difficulty for those particular levels!

It's also a curious coincidence that you stopped at Amateur 20 for the time being, because Amateur 21 is the only level in the pack featuring an anti-splat pad. This is going to get re-introduced with the 12.7 update as well - during initial conversion, I had to replace the anti-splat pad with an updraft, but this breaks the solution.

As far as I know, conversion from Old-Formats levels to version 12.7 is still going to be possible? i.e. anti-splat pads are now going to be recognised again when opening an old level? That would make it easier to just re-convert the level, rather than manually setting everything back to the way it was - because I think I had to slightly adapt the skillset in order for the level to work in some way with the currently-installed updraft.

I also noticed I still have to re-add my Medieval background to Amateur 19, "Holding out for a hero".

EDIT: Background added. I also just made a quick little emergency fix to "The lion sleeps tonight" (Professional 21). It was one of the weakest levels in the pack so far, which I was just tired of. Now that the release rate has been maxed out and another cat trap added, it should be at least slightly more difficult. The fix is of course also coming to the Old-Formats version!

[IchoTolot]

It's also a curious coincidence that you stopped at Amateur 20 for the time being, because Amateur 21 is the only level in the pack featuring an anti-splat pad. This is going to get re-introduced with the 12.7 update as well - during initial conversion, I had to replace the anti-splat pad with an updraft, but this breaks the solution.

Don't bother yourself reading too much into that. The case was: Hmmm, it's late, but I wanted to continue playing the pack today. Hmm, let's play half a rank.....

[IchoTolot]

Had a quick look after redownloading everything fresh now.

Some levels are not loading:

arty_underwater:invisible_updraft

1 15, 4 24

gigalem_treemd:o4

2 02, 2 08, 2 10, 4 08

gigalem_treemd:pickupleaf

2 13

These were the ones not loading in for me.

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for reporting, but I don't get any of these errors. Are you already using the new version 12.7? This one is still for 12.6.5.

I've noticed you posted a separate notification into the topic of every pack you're maintaining once you had cleansed the levels. Since I haven't done that yet, you can assume that LWT isn't updated for 12.7 yet.

Hopefully this doesn't involve a whole bunch of renamed pieces again... feels like I've just updated this pack to New Formats, and now, there's an even newer New Formats. I hope this will not be the case with every odd-number version (i.e. 12.9 being the next one) that gets released...

Currently, version 12.7 gives me the message that it cannot cleanse certain levels and will simply skip them - and among those are precisely those you listed.

[IchoTolot]

Thanks for reporting, but I don't get any of these errors. Are you already using the new version 12.7? This one is still for 12.6.5.

Well, then disregard.

I was using 12.7.

Most packs should not be affected on the playability side anyway with the new version. Only if they included some of the custom pick-ups problems could arise.

Hopefully this doesn't involve a whole bunch of renamed pieces again... feels like I've just updated this pack to New Formats, and now, there's an even newer New Formats. I hope this will not be the case with every odd-number version (i.e. 12.9 being the next one) that gets released...

The only thing that was failing in all my stuff was a custom pick-up skill object, that I replaced and in namida_circuit that duplicate not being automatically replaced. So as the standard library goes you should not have many problems.

It's only your extra stuff (especially that treebright tileset) that maybe could cause a problem. But I bet most of that would also be pick-up related and for that I would simply suggest "go with the default one" for now.

Also cleansing is not nessesary for getting it to work. It's more future related.

[Strato Incendus]

The problem is that I cannot even open these levels in the new editor to replace these pickups with default ones. I'd have to do that either in the 12.6.5 editor, or even further back in Old Formats, because the old editor still had the "replace object with another one from a different tileset" feature that kept the piece in exactly the same position.

In case of the failing underwater levels, however, I have no idea what this is about. As I had feared and just anounced in the post above, some objects have been renamed in that tileset, and even though I've replaced all text instances with the new names, the player still cannot cleanse these levels, and thus, the editor can't open them either.

It's only your extra stuff (especially that treebright tileset) that maybe could cause a problem.

I thought so, too, but actually, it doesn't cause more or fewer problems than the (not yet officially-included) Dex Halloween tileset, or than any other graphic set - as long as no custom pickups are involved, as you suspected.

In contrast, other graphic sets that are part of the official download, but still included custom pickup skills (like Plom's modification of the Psychedelic tileset) are a much bigger problem, because of course, those custom pickups aren't there either.

[IchoTolot]

The problem is that I cannot even open these levels in the new editor to replace these pickups with default ones. I'd have to do that either in the 12.6.5 editor, or even further back in Old Formats, because the old editor still had the "replace object with another one from a different tileset" feature that kept the piece in exactly the same position.

In case of the failing underwater levels, however, I have no idea what this is about. As I had feared and just anounced in the post above, some objects have been renamed in that tileset, and even though I've replaced all text instances with the new names, the player still cannot cleanse these levels, and thus, the editor can't open them either.

This should solve your problem:

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4504.msg78051#msg78051

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4504.msg78052#msg78052

[Strato Incendus]

Nope, it doesn't - I've responded in the above-linked thread, so I think we can stop cross-posting .

Basically, two objects - one background and one updraft object - have been removed from the arty_underwater tileset in the official styles download coming with version 12.7, while they were still present in the latest version of the styles folder I downloaded for 12.6.5.

Maybe someone just forgot to add them to the 12.7 styles download. Anyways, they've always been there, from Old Formats to well within the time period of New Formats, so I don't see a reason why they should be intentionally culled right now.

In the meantime, these levels should work fine for anyone continuing to play in version 12.6.5.

For 12.7, namida has implemented a code that replaces any instance of the gigalem_treemdbright tileset with the matching piece from gigalem_treemd. However, this breaks the respective levels, because the exit gets flushed down into the ground, since the exit objects are actually not identical between these two tilesets. The change also only applies to the new NeoLemmix player; the editor still displays the levels as gigalem_treemdbright, and only once you hit playtest, it turns to gigalem_treemd on the preview screen (and within the level itself, of course)...

[Strato Incendus]

...therefore, the update I just uploaded (for version 12.7.0!) sets all instances of gigalem_treemdbright to regular gigalem_treemd. Since the player doesn't let anyone use the bright tileset anyway without custom editing of the alias file, I decided I could just as easily do this replacement myself; in fact, I had to, in order to make the exits work in the first place.

(Alternatively I would have had to spend my time merging the animation of the exit top with that of the bottom for the gigalem_treemdbright tileset as well, just to have the default programming of NeoLemmix 12.7 replace it with the regular Tree Mod exit anyway.)

The arty_underwater levels have been fixed.

The anti-splat pad on Amateur 21 has also been reintroduced. That's why I'm already uploading this now, just as a "hot fix", so that IchoTolot can not only continue playing in NeoLemmix 12.7., but also at just the right spot with this particular level featuring its intended solution again!

Consequently, the missing talismans will then be added in the next, i.e. "proper" update.

[Turrican]

Hi Strato! After seeing the description for the groupie level for Clam, I decided to put here some thoughts about the author, and more importantly to put here a small piece of the lemmingsforums history , back in the beginning of the decade. Personally I joined the forum in 2013. There were several authors whose packs made me solving custom packs , but Clam was the main one and he is still my favourite level designer. This post is not a critique for the groupie level . Unfortunately I didn't have the opportunity to try the pack , very probably I will try it next month. This post is just an opportunity to put here some small pieces of the history of the forum.

Clam's main characteristic is that he liked small levels. I remember him saying that he liked to see what you can fit in one screen in terms of level size. Now for the exact quote I need to dig older threads but that's I remember him saying (another older user can correct me if I am wrong here). In any case he seemed fan of the idea that "less is more".

EDIT: This post originally was very large. I mentioned several things and small stories about challenge solutions, the challenge board, how it had influenced Clam , and the cstame packs. But it was way off topic for your thread , so I posted it instead in a new thread in the main lemmings board. Please don't forget to visit it , I am really looking forward for your opinion.

link for the new thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4514.0

[Strato Incendus]

Hi Turrican! Thanks for your detailed explanation on Clam's level building style! If I ever create levels in the style of other content creators again, I'll surely come back to them! I've already designed some of the levels from the Groupie rank based more on explicit instructions than on my own observation (for example, Proxima told me his level building style pretty explicitly - thus, it was also easy for him to recognise when I put it into practice ).

There are a couple users for which I might have enough information about their level-building style to create yet another few levels in their fashion, plus also some further quotes or phrases they commonly use I could "poke fun at".

For Clam in particular, however, I sadly didn't make it very far into Clammings before getting stomped. Therefore, I acknowledge that my levels might not have encapsulated his typical style of making small levels - I only observed a frequent use of the Beach tileset and more vertical scrolling than any other pack (although I think Ski Sloping Lemmings by grams88 has taken the cake on that by now ).

I had similar issues with creating the namida level, because I usually only got past the initial X-of-everything levels of any Lemmings Plus pack before the first real puzzles hit me out of nowhere. In his case, apparently I got pretty close merely by observation, rather than by own level execution. But then again, using one of namida's custom tilesets certainly helped to make it feel more authentic to him.

Anyways, I'm glad some people are actually taking the time to read the descriptions I've listed for the Groupie rank!

In case anyone is interested, I also listed all the intended tricks that the Noisemaker and Amateur ranks are supposed to teach in their respective sections (both in the Old- and New-Formats thread).

Just to be on the safe side in case any of this level still can't enforce its intended trick with absolute certainty. Although I'm feeling pretty confident about them as of now, because so far, the replays I've received by IchoTolot (up to Amateur 20) were all pretty much intended solutions.


PS: Thanks for making me aware of this particular level again. I have just recently created a level for Lemmings Open Air (currently in development) called "Rama Lema Ding Dong", no longer aware that I had already used that song title as a reference here in Lemmings World Tour, with just a slight variation. So I should probably go ahead and change the title for the Lemmings Open Air level. Because a double-pun ("Clam-a-Lem-a-Ding-Dong") is always better than just a single pun!

[IchoTolot]

Finished Amateur.

Good levels in there. The difficulty is still a bit variable but not as much as before (For example: 2 15 too hard, 2 23 is a bit hard for the position, 2 31 waaaay too easy, 2 34 a bit too easy).

2 13 and 2 26 I would say is are prime examples that the pack is more enjoyable now if my guess is right that before there was radiation/slowfreeze in there. No way I would have enjoyed/wanted to play that with radiation/slowfreeze.

I should have tracked a few serious backroutes this time, but I await your call there.

My favorite level was 2 10!    I also really enjoyed 2 32 and 2 35.

Level I did not really enjoy: 2 08 (I did expect the dogs but not the chocolate, also I would say it's too hard for the position), 2 40 (no way to find the exit without true physics mode here, also it's quite easy for the position)

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks a lot for both playing and your feedback, IchoTolot! I'll respond to them one by one, and then address the replays in a spoiler.

2 15 too hard

Really? I think this is the first time I hear that. Maybe it's because of the direct succession after 2 14 ("Meet me halfway"), which was extremely difficult for Arty, so that 2 15 ("Ring, Ring!") seemed very easy in comparison. You can also lose comparatively many lemmings on this one, and usually people have some skills remaining at the end.

2 23 is a bit hard for the position

On this one ("Fields of gold") you had even more skills remaining, so just from watching the replay, it seemed like this particular one was even easier for you. Are you maybe referring to the level above or below?

I've mentioned them by name again, just to be able to clarify.

2 31 waaaay too easy

This one is obviously a joke level. There is a talisman for saving everyone, though, which I'm going to re-add with the next update. Since you did save everyone, simply re-run your replay over that level (mass-replay check should also work to get all the talismans you've already collected without knowing).

Basically, the purpose of this level is showing how pointless I find 10-of-everything levels on lower ranks in general, because the skill supply is so generous that the player doesn't have anything to lose. And to stress that, I thought "Why not go all the way and make the save requirement zero?"

2 13 and 2 26 I would say is are prime examples that the pack is more enjoyable now if my guess is right that before there was radiation/slowfreeze in there. No way I would have enjoyed/wanted to play that with radiation/slowfreeze.

Indeed, 2 13 was a radiation level, so were 2 25 and 2 39, and 2 26 was a slowfreeze level. I've adapted the pre-level texts so that the player can usually tell.

On 2 13, you took some sort of a shortcut, but I don't really have to enforce any "intended" solutions on these levels where the object required for the actual intended solution is no longer present in the first place.

On 2 25 and 2 26, however, you actually exactly replicated the intended solution to the best it can be done with the pickup skills in place of radiation and slowfreeze.

My favorite level was 2 10!

That's nice to hear! Especially since that level is right on the borderline between puzzle- and execution difficulty. Even with the replay-write feature, as Arty showcased in his LP, it's still not as easy as it looks at first.

I also really enjoyed 2 32 and 2 35.

I'll address those in the spoiler.

2 08 (I did expect the dogs but not the chocolate, also I would say it's too hard for the position)

Interesting, because Arty actually found it too easy for its position. He was only fine with it being as high as level 08 of the second rank because of the music ("Who let the dogs out?" goes with "How much is that doggie in the window?", obviously).

Regarding the trap: Take a good look at its position again and I doubt you'd want to refer to that as chocolate...

Spoiler

As the pre-level text announces, dogs are usually "let out for one very specific reason"... and that reason is a bathroom break.
The dog on the balcony actually also has an additional trap on top of the red barrel from the Brick tileset. I think no one has found this yet because everyone immediately bashes through the barrel. But anyone who decides to build over it instead will find out that the dog on the balcony will pee down on the lemmings. This trap actually is even partly visible, in form of a little yellow puddle on top of the barrel.

2 40 (no way to find the exit without true physics mode here, also it's quite easy for the position)

Fair enough, I think this problem can occur anytime someone encounters a new graphic set for the first time. Even with familiar graphic sets, such as L2 Space, Nepster still mistook the airlock trap as the exit first when playing one of my Paralems levels.

Since this is not purposefully hidden information, I'm happy to spell it out for everyone: The acoustic guitar in my instruments tileset is always the exit. As such, it is an object and never solid.

On your single replays

2 21, "You can't play with broken Lems": Totally not intended, but you still needed all the skills except one stacker, so it's a viable alternative solution to me. Also, it's not really obvious. I think solutions like these really require prior knowledge of how everything works, and I don't want to punish that. I went to quite some lengths to enforce the use of the main trick on Noisemaker 38, because it was required again later. But here, this level is the only one in the entire pack that even contains anti-splat pads, so I don't see it as necessary to enforce one specific solution just to make the player aware of how these objects work.

2 22, "Firework": intended.

2 23, "Fields of gold": open-ended and fine as it is.

2 24, "Wonderwall": intended. The additional Basher is just provided in case the bouncing-it-off-the-Blocker part doesn't quite work. Otherwise the level would have been too hard for this position, at least for my taste.

2 25, "Radioactive": intended, as said above. In Old Formats, the radiation object is right beneath the receiver, and the pickup skill is a Blocker rather than a Bomber - that's pretty much all the difference. The fire traps were added in New Formats, though, to enforce Stacker usage, rather than allowing the Climber to go straight up the steel piece. In the Old-Formats version with radiation, the fire traps aren't needed, because the Stackers need to go in front of the radiation object anyway to prevent the crowd from walking into it.

2 26, "Like ice in the sunshine": intended. This one isn't really harder to execute in Old-Formats, though, because the slowfreeze is placed in such a way that the cloned Glider automatically stones in the correct two positions. Also, it's an 8-of-everything level in Old-Formats; hence, the extension to 10 skills was required in New Formats, so that I could provide additional Stoner pickup skills.

2 27, "Don't fear the Reaper": intended. Compression method is the way to go here.

2, 28, "Zombie": I've come to notice that timing-based solutions to Zombie levels are usually an option, and since this is the introductory level for Zombies, I don't see a justification for me to say that it's "forbidden". It's just usually a form of self-imposed execution difficulty, because it relies on the Zombie being in the correct position when the lemmings arrive at the exit. The cloned Stacker at the beginning is part of the intended solution, though. Any player who uses your solution actually demonstrates transfer of knowledge of the compression method taught on the previous level!

2 29, "Seven Nation Army": This level provides way more skills than necessary, just to make the skillset look "pretty" (descending from 7 to 1). It's pretty much open ended. However, I was impressed by how you used the Blocker on the staircase - the one that caused the Builder to turn around - to at the same time trap a lemming on the other side of that staircase, due to the trigger areas still touching the ground! I might actually make that part of the intended solution on some new levels I create!

2 30, "Georgia on my mind": Once again a timing-based solution - in this case one that requires flow control, rather than compression method. There is the possibility to trap the crowd on this level, but since I generally consider flow control the more "advanced" approach, once again, I don't want to punish players who approach levels in this manner. Just like you suggested once with regards to Builder gaps - that advanced players who stretch out their Builder staircases out of a learned habit for skill efficiency shouldn't be penalised for their increased knowledge.

2 32, "Ich und mein Holz": Almost intended - you only spared the Bomber. The intended solution connects the block of one-way arrows with the crowd on the left via a Builder, then has the Miner carry on over the staircase. This requires the Basher to go beneath the crowd on the left, and then the Basher must be bombed to be stopped, thus opening a passage to the exit below. The way to enforce this intended solution to full extent would be to also put one-way down arrows on the wall containing the crowd on the left (which you bashed through). This would only allow a Miner to be used there. But your solution is so close to the intended one that I think I'm just going to leave this level as it is - it might even be a bit too hard for the second rank otherwise. Another case where I'm happy somebody found a slightly easier solution, compared to the intended one - that way I can feel like less of a douche!

2 33, "Eagle": Even though it took a lot fewer skills than required, this also looked much more elegant than the intended solution! I think the only way to prevent this slight shortcut is obcessive amounts of steel, or horribly out-of-place fire traps (which have historically been my most frequent emergency responses to Builder-based shortcuts). Since however this is one of the "landscape" levels, and the backroute is not severe enough to warrant that, this level is also going to remain as it is, at least for the time being.

2 34, "Levels": Intended. Well, open-ended, of course; but you needed all the Builders, that's the intended part.

2 35, "Black Polished Chrome": Intended + Talisman (you saved the Climber from going over the stack). There are various ways to do this; the non-talisman solution bombs that Climber before he can walk off the screen and die. Arty took a completely different approach to this level; you however platformed over the market square, which is what I had in mind originally.

2 36, "Walk this way": Intended. Or, more accurately, the same solution Arty found, which is as close as possible to the intended solution. I originally wanted the pioneer to make another round, come back from the other side, then climb on top of the Stack blocking the exit, so that you can bomb it open. That's of course still possible, but overall, this solution is much cleaner and more appropriate for this position in the rank, while still requiring all the main tricks (turning around the Glider correctly and making the Fencer continue over the staircase).

2 37, "Shipping up to Boston": Intended. Though I do think you've also managed to spare one Bomber here.

2 38, "The Shocker": This level is also open ended, and pretty much just an exercise of various ways to get through semi-thin walls.

2 39, "Japan": I was very curious for this one, because obviously, this solution changed completely, compared to the original one including radiation. The original level is so complex that I didn't even attempt to replicate the solution here, but made up something completely different. I didn't know that the masts with the one-way left arrows were thin enough to get through it with a Digger! This is enabled by the steel stopping the Digger; however, at the same time, the steel needs to be in this position to prevent the player from simply shortcutting by going beneath everything with a single Basher.
In the end, you still needed all but 1 skill, so I'm more than happy with this! I could enforce the Bomber usage at the masts by replacing the one-way left arrows with one-way down arrows, because these are the spots in which the lemmings need to bomb in the Old-Formats version using radiation. But I don't think I have to, given that, as stated before, the "intended" solution for the New-Formats version is completely different from the Old-Formats solution anyway.

2 40, "God gave Rock 'n Roll to you": Pretty much intended. This is really just a level to show off the Instruments tileset. The important things are the way the crowd is contained, plus the pioneer going along the top path in the beginning and then coming back along the bottom.

In sum, most of your solutions were slight improvements over the intended ones. That's usually what gets turned into talismans, and as I said, some of these solutions actually are talisman solutions - they just haven't been re-added yet.

On every level where you saved a considerable amount of skills, this actually happened via an observably higher level of knowledge than required by the player at this point - and I don't want to punish experienced players for their knowledge, or disable valid alternative approaches where they are appropriate, such as timing-based solutions when dealing with Zombies.

As such, there are no immediate backroute fixes required yet. But I'm pretty sure it's only a matter of time...

Good luck on the Professional rank! Don't be confused if some levels are even slightly easier than those at the end of Amateur... this would be in line with the feedback I received from Arty, and doesn't necessarily mean those solutions are backroutes.

[IchoTolot]

2 23 is a bit hard for the position


On this one ("Fields of gold") you had even more skills remaining, so just from watching the replay, it seemed like this particular one was even easier for you. Are you maybe referring to the level above or below?

I've mentioned them by name again, just to be able to clarify.

No, it's exactly this one. I had a few skills left over, but it still took me the longest from rank 2.

Regarding the trap: Take a good look at its position again and I doubt you'd want to refer to that as chocolate...

I knew what it shall represent.