"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[Nepster]

Would that be okay?

Has my approval.

Regarding Scaling the Heights:
Attached are 8 different solutions, the longest taking roughly 1:45, the shortest 17 seconds. I really would like to see any solution that takes longer than the 2 minutes. Otherwise I still don't see any reason to keep the time limit.

[Proxima]

My solution to Scaling the Heights. With no time limit, this could be done without multitasking the miner and the long bridge from the bottom.

[EDIT: Attached the correct replay this time!]

[bsmith]

I object to considering my solution to FANL2 to be a backroute.  Not bashing through that one specific part of the terrain is not enough for me to say 'backroute'.  The fact I used a trick to make it work just makes my solution less obvious than the more common solutions.  I am fine with the other three proposed changes but leave the skillset alone.

I have my solution to Scaling the Heights attached.

[Nepster]

Here are 4 more solutions to FANL2 that use two miners (and one that is possible even with the reduced skill set). Most of them a probably acceptable, apart from the one shortcut that turns on the steel of the exit platform. Perhaps one or two others are too similar to FANL1, though.

My solution to Scaling the Heights. With no time limit, this could be done without multitasking the miner and the long bridge from the bottom.

I already mentioned this in chat: If one blocks instead of mines at the beginning and then blocks another time at the end to turn the crowd earlier, the solution works in 2 min even without multi-tasking.

[namida]

Regarding FANL2, I just played it. I don't recall the actual solution, so I just tried to find the first one that appeared to me.

My initial attempt with this route fell short by about 5 seconds. This modification (using a miner instead of a basher to hold the crowd, as it's otherwise interchangable with the basher near the end) allowed the solution to pass with about 10 seconds to spare.

I can think of some solutions that would fail due to the time limit, but I'd personally think they're more obscure than this one anyway.

(Note: Replay is based off the original version of this level, without the modified lemming counts. I doubt it'll affect the success of the replay though.)

[namida]

If we can't come to any final decision on these last few levels' time limits, could we consider: Is the presence or absence of one going to significantly affect where the level should be placed in the order? And if not, perhaps we should start working on the order now; we can always come to a decision on these last few time limits later (and perhaps more people can give their input).

(Although with that being said, you could definitely argue that if it matters little enough that we can go on with ordering, then the best answer is "remove the time limit" anyway.)

[bsmith]

I support the notion to remove the time limit from the last couple of disputed timed level so we can move forward.

[Proxima]

Sorry for the delay. I wasn't hanging back in the hope of firmer consensus; it was just that other things in life got in the way for a while.

Here's version 0.2.1, with Scaling the Heights non-time-limited (other levels where we decided to remove had already been done); Just a Quicky has one minute; my edited versions of It's hero time and FANL2 are in, and I've added the same extra steel to FANL1 for consistency.

[namida]

If we're happy with the lemming counts and time limits, then that just leaves ordering and maybe a few more fixes.

I'll take a look at this sometime over the next couple of days (probably tomorrow night) and give some more input on level ordering. Also - have we decided on a fix for "Let's Go Camping"? (This is probably the only level I'd need to see a fix for before I could give useful input on its position.)

[Proxima]

I believe we decided on a fix for "Let's Go Camping" (principally, removing the digger, which cuts out all the "turn back at the top" backroutes), but it isn't in the pack yet. Thanks for the reminder.

I think the remaining tasks are:

1. Terrain modifications, including revealing hidden traps (we've agreed we should do this, but haven't agreed on how in all cases).

2. Which levels to backroute-fix, and how.

3. Ordering.

4. Talismans.

I think it makes sense to do the tasks in the above order (particularly as backroute fixes will affect decisions about ordering), but ordering is by far the largest remaining task, so perhaps we should start on that straight away? What do the others think?

[namida]

For #1, the logical first step would be to come up with a list of which levels have such traps. This is what most of the (non-backroute-fixing) modifications will consist of; there might be a few cases where it's a matter of fixing things that look (or function) weird or trimming out excessive decoration, but I'd guess such cases will be the minority.

For #4, it's always good to have ideas. The only ones I recall that came up so far were save-all on "Cascade" (obvious one), lose-3 for "Onward And Upward", and lose-10, 10-builder, 10-bomber for "You Live And Lem". We should probably keep a list of these somewhere, maybe in the first post.

[bsmith]

I see one lemming count I would adjust.  Menacing currently has 25/40 but the other special graphic levels have 30/50 or 35/50.  I propose to change Menacing to 30/50.

There are several levels with bombers in excess of the amount of lemmings that can be lost.  I think we should remove these bombers (except for levels like X of everything or other pattern in the skill counts).

I don't like the terrain change in Compression Method.  It adds a digger pit backroute that is not possible in the original.  I think making the horizontal steel thinner as opposed to moving it up would be better.

Removing the traps from Worra Load of Old Blocks also adds a backroute buy building up to the steel on the right.  In this case I think the right way to fix the hidden traps is to change the type of trap to the grinder wheel trap rather than take them all out.

[Proxima]

Menacing has 80 lemmings in the original, the other special graphic levels have 100. So the change is consistent with what we've done on other levels.

The digger pit solution to Compression Method is possible in the original (use a bomber to stop the digger going too far), and not really a backroute since it's exactly the same idea as the main solution (compress to get through the traps), just a more complicated way to set it up.

I also don't like the way namida changed Worra load of old blocks, but I'm not sure what I prefer. I'll have a look at which other levels had hidden traps so we can discuss them all together.

[bsmith]

I attached a modified version of Compression Method where I made the horizontal steel thinner.  The destructible bricks only lose 5 pixels of height in this version.

[Proxima]

Version 0.2.2. I've added this new version of Compression Method 1.

There were more levels than I realised with unusable bombers, so after going through the pack, I decided on the following changes. (Let me know if you disagree with any of these, we can always reconsider.)

* Removed bombers on the following 100% levels: Quest for Kieran, Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy, Just a Quicky, I have a cunning plan, Let's go camping, Electric Circuit, Everyone's a hard nut, The North Poles, The gate trap lemmings, Emmings! (No L), Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), Steel Block Party, Lemmy in the cold, cold ground.

* Reduced the number of bombers on these levels: And then there were four (10, 50/60), Acrophobia (1, 24/25), Upsidedown World (1, 49/50).

* Pop Yor Top: required 33/40 and has 30 bombers. I changed this to 30/40 and 10, since this looks neater in the skillset.

* Removed blockers on a few 100% levels where this makes the skillset look neater and blockers weren't really useful: Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy, The North Poles, Lemmy in the cold, cold ground.

* Menacing: originally required 70/80 and had 15 bombers. We previously changed this to 35/50 and 15. I've made it 30/40 and 10 since this looks neater in the skillset.

* The Needs of the Many: originally 8/15 but only 11 floaters, you can't save the other lemmings at all. I've made it 8/11.

The following levels still have unusable bombers, but I haven't changed them as the skillset is either N-of-all, patterned, or at the very least has all 8 skills present: Where do you see lemmings?, Doomsday, Rainbow Island, A Spot of Bother, Perseverance, Across the Gap, Four Play, It's hero time, There's madness in the method, The Great Lemming Caper*, Which one are you trying to get?, Oh No! Squish, Triple Trouble.

* In the backrouting discussion, we will at least discuss removing blockers from The Great Lemming Caper, so this may be reconsidered.