"Lemmings Redux": A "remake" of official games for NeoLemmix.

[namida]

Over on the NeoLemmix Bugs & Suggestions forum, I suggested some modifications to the NeoLemmix conversions of the official games. Proxima suggested keeping these as is, but creating a seperate, "updated" version using levels from the official games, under the title "Lemmings Redux".

I don't know how I feel about the name, but it works as a working title. The idea itself however, I do like.

My idea of what this should be - a single pack, as large as nessecary, using most or all content from the official games, including the Genesis version, Covox and Prima. Not sure whether we should also include Holiday in this. The content could be re-ordered, and solutions we think are likely to be backroutes fixed, as nessecary.

In the future, when NeoLemmix gets a proper level browser rather than the current "load one game at a time" setup, it could also be included (alongside the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack) as a default pack.

Some thoughts on changes to be made:

1. Get rid of repeats.
Usually this would be done by removing the earlier level, though in some cases it should be done by removing the later one instead (Fun 18 / Taxing 19, and Fun 30 / Mayhem 24, are good examples of this case). Some pairs where this may be questionable are the repeats of training levels, where if we remove the earlier version we lose a valuable introduction level; if we remove the later version, we lose a very good level (in one case, the level that was voted to be the best of all the official levels). Perhaps exceptions only in the case of the training levels is the best way to handle this. In regards of losing the easier levels to fill an early rank, I feel that the Tame levels, some of Covox and Prima, and perhaps even some of the very-misplaced later levels can fill this void.

2. Get rid of time limits where they aren't nessecary.
This one is quite self-explanatory. Some discussion may be needed as to what is or isn't nessecary.

3. Reorder levels.
We should try and improve the difficulty curve. We can split these over more than just four / five ranks if need be; indeed, we should try to stick to (although not consider it the "critical" goal) an equal number of levels per rank.

4. Ditch some of the levels that don't generally conform to modern standards.
The first level to come to mind here would be Tricky 28. Some others that do include the special graphics levels (which perhaps should just be excluded automatically anyway, or maybe replaced with their less-long-and-boring Genesis variants), Taxing 14, etc.

5. Backroute-fix existing levels.
This one may be quite controversial, as we don't really know what is or isn't a backroute. Particularly around the middle of the games, it's likely that many levels are intended to have more than one way to solve them.


For clarification: I'm not proposing we remake, or even to much of an extent alter, the existing levels. It would be more about trimming certain ones, combining into one large pack, and maybe fixing up a few that have functional issues (major backroutes, etc). The majority of levels would, in and of themself, remain unmodified, and the decision is more on where they fit into the overall order (and whether or not to include them at all).

[namida]

Let's take a look at how many total levels we have available to choose from:

Original Lemmings (Amiga) - 84 levels (click to show/hide)

120 levels total.
Of these, we have 80 unique maps. However, there are two maps of We All Fall Down (even if there are some very slight differences in the decorative terrain), bringing it down to 79 truly unique maps.
If we do allow the training levels' repeats (except Fun 6, as that one would be entirely redundant), this brings it up to 84.

Original Lemmings (Genesis) - 87 levels (click to show/hide)

105 levels total that aren't in other versions, excluding the 2-player and test maps.
Of these, (I think) 13 are repeated, and 8 are remakes of ONML levels (we could consider whether to use these versions rather than the authentic ONML versions, due to the abundance of brick tileset levels in ONML). Assuming my counts are right, this brings it down to 92.
Taking out the five special graphics levels (though we might use these ones instead of the usual Orig ones, if we keep them at all), 87 levels.

Original Lemmings (Master System) - 5 levels (click to show/hide)

The Sega graphic set levels may be usable, but in one version of each (so that's the 5 levels).
Sixes Not is basically an alternate version of All The 6s, so should be excluded.
We should maybe discuss whether to use this version's repeat of Tricky 12 rather than the Amiga / PC version's one. Both are very good levels, but we probably don't want to include both.

Original Lemmings (Other sources) - 10 (click to show/hide)

We have 11 levels in the "Others" rank. There's quite obviously little reason to consider "The Apple Computer Level", though, bringing it down to 10 possible levels.

Oh No! More Lemmings! - 100 levels (click to show/hide)

Very straightforward here. I can't think of any reason to immediately exclude any of the levels in this one, possibly we will find some when we do some more in-depth cutting.

Covox / Prima - 22 levels (click to show/hide)

Ignoring the special graphics levels, there's 7 in Covox and 15 in Prima. A lot of them (especially from Covox) are poor quality, but now is not the point in time to make decisions regarding quality of levels.

Holiday Lemmings? - 70 levels (click to show/hide)

2 Xmas91 + 4 Xmas92 + 64 Holiday 93 / 94. If we want to avoid mixing "Xmas-y" levels in, we could consider remaking some of them in the snow set. However, perhaps it's a better idea to simply leave Holiday out of it.

So, we have 308 levels to choose from (378 if we include Holiday Lemmings). Chances are we'll probably trim the list a bit further, so some fairly "nice-looking" numbers we could aim for are:

300 levels - (15 ranks x 20 levels) or (10 ranks x 30 levels) or (6 ranks x 50 levels) or (5 ranks x 60 levels)
280 levels - (14 ranks x 20 levels) or (7 ranks x 40 levels)
275 levels - (11 ranks x 25 levels)
270 levels - (9 ranks x 30 levels)
250 levels - (10 ranks x 25 levels) or (5 ranks x 50 levels)

One advantage of the 270 levels across 9 ranks option is we don't need to invent any new rank names (or pick and choose which ones to keep) - we can just combine those from Orig and OhNo; some decision as to the ordering may still be needed.

EDIT: It appears I somewhat miscounted. I used more advanced methods to get a count of useful levels (read: actually put all the candidates into an NXP, looked through and removed obvious problem ones at a glance, used a duplicate file checker on an image dump to look for any duplicates I missed), and also removed a Genesis level that had much the same problem as Tricky 28 (I forget the position, but the name was "Stray Sheep" I think, and it was in Sunsoft).

The end result is - 296 levels. Of course, this is without taking into account that we may want to re-introduce some other duplicates, though I do think we should be very selective about it.

EDIT: General opinion is in favor of including Holiday, so we now have 366 levels to consider (and that's without taking into account how repeats may be treated).

[namida]

(reserved)

[Proxima]

Hmm. I don't agree with entirely getting rid of repeats -- for one thing, Genesis has a few examples where both levels are interesting puzzles. For another, in my opinion the Fun rating as it stands is a lot more fun than the majority of the Tame levels. It could be streamlined, but removing every level that has a repeat would leave the pack without a good supply of decent easy levels.

However, a possible source of further easy levels is taking some of the more pointless later levels, such as Highland Fling, and giving them 20 of everything 

[namida]

I put a quick overview of how many levels we're likely dealing with in the second post above. I also clarified in the first post (in regards to some misunderstanding on IRC), that the goal isn't to remake any levels, or even modify most of them, but more about compiling the official levels into a single pack, in a more suitable order, and with some of the more pointless or low-quality levels removed; maybe a few of them getting backroute fixes.

[namida]

Alright, so here's a very-very-very preliminary version. As in, don't consider it even close to final; it's really just a first attempt to compile together the probably-will-be-used levels.

It includes:

1. Original Lemmings (Amiga). All unique, non-special-graphics levels, except for Tricky 28. In the case of levels that have repeats, the later (/latest, in the case of WAFD) version was used, except in six cases: Both versions are retained for Fun 2 / Tricky 18; Fun 4 / Mayhem 20; Fun 5 / Tricky 16; and Fun 7 / Tricky 19. In the case of Fun 18 / Taxing 19; and Fun 30 / Mayhem 24, the earlier version has been retained.
2. Original Lemmings (Genesis). All unique levels are retained, using the same rule of "later version in case of duplicates". The exceptions are (a) remakes of ONML levels, (b) "Stray Sheep" (similar reasoning to Tricky 28), and (c) the extra special graphics levels. However, the Genesis versions of the also-found-in-other-ports special graphics levels have been retained.
3. Original Lemmings (Master System). The earlier versions of the 5 Sega levels are retained.
4. Original Lemmings (other versions). Added all the levels found in the "Others" rank of the Extra Levels NXP, except "The Apple Computer Level". (Including Vacation in Gemland)
5. Oh No! More Lemmings!. Added all levels.
6. Prima and Covox. Added all levels except the two special graphics ones.

At the moment, the first 9 ranks are named after Orig / ONML ranks, which I like as a possible final structure. All levels have been grouped by the rank they were originally in (which will obviously not be the final structure); in the case of the two levels that don't really have an original rank as such ("One Way To Freedom" and "Vacation In Gemland"), I used my own judgement as to where to put them (Taxing and Wild respectively), but this will probably change as the pack develops. To avoid having to make judgement-based decisions at this stage for a large number of levels, I simply added extra "Present" and "Sunsoft" ranks and put the respective levels in those for now.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0jnt81iyxmwd0at/LemmingsRedux.nxp


So - no need to try and seriously play it at this stage, as the levels are unmodified from the versions found in other NXPs (apart from removing any use of oddtabling, and changing Genesis levels to use regular version graphic sets). It's just to see what levels have been included.

So the next part of discussion should be:
1. Should any of the removed levels in fact be added back in? If so, why? In the case of duplicates, should the retained version be swapped with the removed one, or should both be included (I would like to lean away from doing this as much as possible, but there are cases where it may be justified - there are four examples of this already; five if you count the two versions of Just A Minute from Mayhem).
2. Which further levels should be removed? I've essentially removed only on account of repeats, completely worthless levels (eg. The Apple Computer Level), and two levels that go against the "no hidden exits" guideline (although I didn't remove Taxing 17; we probably need more discussion around this one as it has perfectly-accessible visible exits as well as a hidden one). I have avoided removing, for now, even almost-universally-disliked levels like Taxing 14, though. In particular, what should we do about the special graphics levels, now that we don't have one per rank anyway (unless we make four extremely large ranks as the final structure)?
3. We also probably want to decide fairly soon about whether or not to include Holiday Lemmings. I'm leaning towards no.

[Minim]

Generally, I think we should include the Holiday levels; although I do know one level that shouldn't make the cut at all: Blitz 14. That one, as the title says, has a hidden exit. The Two Presents of Mind levels actually have slightly altered level designs (e.g. the snowman on the right in II), but as one level has just fewer skills than the other, should we remove either one? The time limits of some levels, such as Flurry 13, Hail 5, Hail 6, should be removed because of a low release-rate. Hail 8's time limit should also be removed because the player may run out of time freeing the lemmings after the path is completed by the worker Frost 10's time limit is also too low for roughly the same reason. (There may be more to come, though. I'll double-check). Flurry 3 and 4 are different level designs, but have exactly the same solution and are therefore redundant. Should we keep both levels because of different level design?

Edit: Frost 8 is an interesting one. The level layout has two exits, although we do know that one exit cannot be reached by the required number of lemmings. The other one is possible but involves changing the release rate. This time limit is obviously there to prevent multiple solutions. I'm not sure what to do about this level. Maybe we should keep this one?

Frost 13 fits in the unnecessary criteria of low release rate and low time limit levels, as does Frost 16, Flurry 11, Flurry 14 and Blitz 8. Maybe we should change the title of the first one to 5 minutes?

[Proxima]

It depends on what direction you want to steer the project in. If you want it to be a way for new players to experience the original levels, then it should be as inclusive as possible, omitting only levels we think don't come up to modern standards; that means adding Holiday (and keeping Tame). If you want it to be a way for new players to experience Lemmings as a game, then the number of retained levels should be much lower, and the vast majority of Holiday wouldn't make the cut. My preference is for the latter.

While falling asleep last night I thought some more about your idea of removing all repeats, and now I think it could work. There are quite a few repeat pairs where the later one is not a very interesting level, and we could keep the earlier one so as to have more easy levels. One pair not on your list where we should certainly keep the earlier one is Fun 11 / Taxing 18; the former serves to introduce one-way walls to a new player, and the latter is a bomber-timing level.

I had a go at drafting an order for the new Fun set, and I'll post this soon -- have to go out right now

[namida]

I wasn't really considering removing Tame (perhaps a couple of levels if need be, but not the rank as a whole).

With earlier repeats cut out, this does leave somewhat of a shortage of easy levels, and keeping Tame is one way to increase the count of them without keeping duplicates or cutting the later versions. As far as Orig Amiga goes, we have a total of 9 levels kept - the 7 training levels, "Let's Block And Blow", and "Lock Up Your Lemmings". Adding Genesis version to this adds just 3 more levels - "Catch more floaters", "A Beast of a Level" and "Dark Dawn". The various other ports, and Covox and Prima, add a handful more, but I suspect a lot of these will be chosen to move to later ranks during the course of this project.

Even if we look at Tricky as well, the only levels (from Orig Amiga; may be some more from other ports) which may fit into a first rank would be "This should be a doddle", and maybe "All The 6's" if placed towards the end of it. We might be able to find a few more from Present and Sunsoft, as while these levels get extremely hard at some points, many are also very easy.

Keep in mind that we should be thinking of the ordering of the levels as a whole, not on a per-rank basis. They're organised corresponding to their original ranks for now, but this is not intended to be their final division - more just an aid for putting a very preliminary draft together. It should only really be thought of as "what levels are in at all?" (and even for that, a starting point only).

In regards to Fun 11 / Taxing 18, it is true that we need more early levels, and quite possibly, a level that introduces one-way arrows - something that Fun 11 does very nicely. However, I wouldn't consider Taxing 18 to be just "a bomber-timing level" either; it has a variety of solutions and I would consider it a fairly good level. Since Fun 11 serves a similar purpose to training levels (even if it can be beaten without actually making use of what the game is trying to teach on it), perhaps this can be another case where we allow a duplicate. I'm not entirely against having them at all; more I just think they should be kept to a minimum. In cases where it's "two different levels on the same layout" (which happens in some cases with Genesis, and I will need to take a closer look at the levels in question), or like this where one serves a training purpose and the other is a general puzzle, I feel it's okay to have them.


In regards to Holiday, I'm just not sure how I feel about it still. It feels like it should remain seperate more so than the others should... I would think perhaps a Holiday Lemmings Redux as a second project, but there aren't so many changes to propose there - perhaps a few levels dropped (such as Blitz 14 as Minim mentions; or "Check Your Hints", etc), de-time-limiting, but overall the result would be much the same game apart from reordering. Maybe it's better to just leave those as they are.

[namida]

I've looked through the levels, and given a rough division of them into ranks.

I've listed this as 5 ranks so far; I know that isn't an ideal target (and nor is it very balanced between them; some have way more levels than others), but it's easier for me to mentally divide them up this way. Note that I haven't paid very much attention to the order withink a rank, but mostly just put each level either at the start, at the end, or occasionally roughly in the middle. The finer details can come later. Also note, for the overwhelming majority I've gone from memory here. There's only a few where I actually re-played the level while deciding this. So, especially for those I haven't played as extensively (read: everything that isn't DOS / Amiga Orig), chances are this isn't optimal. This is why feedback is needed!

So I guess, as usual, this is a starting point.

I've also added comments with some levels.

Note that this list is assuming no backroute fixes, but generally ignoring time limits in levels where the time limit is likely to be removed.

List (click to show/hide)

-== Rank 1 ==-
(Training Levels)
Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming
(All of Tame)
Let's Block And Blow (or, Bomboozal?)
Lock Up Your Lemmings
Bridge Away
A Beast Of A Level
Dark Dawn
Digger Conversions
SEGA One
Catch More Floaters
SEGA Two
SEGA Five <--- probably needs a name change, 3 and 4 come later
Alternate Route
This Should Be A Doddle
Animal or Vegetable?
All The 6's
Let's Go To The Moon
Where Do You See Lemmings?
Lemming Excavation
Ohayou Lemming-San
Livin' On The Edge
MENACING!
Rainbow Island
Through The Graveyard
Walk The Web Rope
What An Awesome Level!
A BeastII Of A Level
How Do We Get Down There?
JackLemmings
Natural Life
Let Me Get Out Of Here
Darkness of the Royal Family
Rules To Fall
Inside The Bone
Libra <--- maybe use Part 2 instead?
Turn Around And Look
Here Is Mr. Lemming's House
Let's Go Camping

-== Rank 2 ==-
Cave Quest <--- maybe remove. very reliant on hidden traps.
Doomsday
Spiral Staircase
Everyone Turn Left (Part 2) <--- do note that Part 1 is among the not included levels, maybe rename?
A Trap Is A Trap
Like An Overflowing Wave
Balance Beam
Watch Your Step (Part 2) <--- probably needs a name change, Part 1 comes later
Lemmings Standing On The Earth
Which Way Do We Go?
Dolly Dimple? <--- probably needs a name change
The Pipeline
Lots Of Steel Crates
Don't Leave Any Lemmings
SEGA Three
The Island Of The Wicker People
Going Their Seperate Ways
For Every Lemming, Turn Turn
Konnichiwa Lemming-San
Tightrope City
On The Antarctic Coast
Bridge Delay
Luvly Jubly
It's Lemmingentry Watson
One Way Digging To Freedom
Turn Around Young Lemmings
The Crankshaft
From The Boundary Line
Cascade
Salvage Boat
Let's Go Sledding
I Have A Cunning Plan
Many Lemmings Make Level Work
24-Hour Lemathon
Lemming Friendly
Something Weighing On Your Mind?
It's A Trade Off
Time Waits For No Lemming
Across The Gap
Digging For Victory
Ice Ice Lemming
Watch Out, There's Traps About
The Prison
The Art Gallery
Perserverance
Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy
X Marks The Spot
Tribute To M.C. Escher
Feel The Heat
Take A Running Jump
Follow The Leader
Call In The Bomb Squad
How Do I Dig Up The Way?
The Bridge Is Breaking Down
No Choice But To Follow Them
Watch Right Or Left
SEGA Four (or - Mayhem version, in a later rank?)
IceTown
Oh No! Squish.
Pop Your Top!
Lemming Hotel
Lemming Rhythms
Ice Station Lemming
The Chain With No Name
Dr Lemminggood
Lemmingdelica
Pop Till You Drop!
Suicidal Tendancies
Almost Nearly Virtual Reality
The Lemming Learning Curve
Don't Leave My Lemmings
Where Are You Heading? <--- perhaps its earlier repeat should be used instead?
Anxiety

-== Rank 3 ==-
Two Heads Are Better
Move On In Two Seperate Groups
No World Without You <--- use earlier repeat instead?
King Of Lemmings
Lemmings-Preying Iron Plate
Evil Whisper
No Time For A Detour
Highland Fling
Welcome To The Party, Pal
Creature Discomforts
Tubular Lemmings
Don't Make The Wrong Choice
Two Different Worlds
The Fast Food Kitchen
Curse of the Pharoahs
Pillars of Hercules
We All Fall Down (Mayhem version)
The Far Side
Spam Spam Egg and Lemming
Oh No! It's The Fourth Dimension!
Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility
Vacation in Gemland
Snow Joke
It's A Tight Fit
Just A Quicky
Meeting Adjourned
One Way To Freedom
Watch Your Fingertip
Value Each Moment
Lemmings Search For Treasure
Temporary Peace
Triple Trouble
Come On Over To My Place
The Ascending Pillar Scenario
Lend A Helping Hand
If At First You Don't Succeed
Don't Follow Me <--- note: is a duplicate that slipped under the radar ("Climb and fall. Fall and climb.")
Go For It
Postcard from Lemmingland
Lemming Lament
King Of The Castle
Quote: "That's A Good Level"
Lemming Express
The Stack
Keep On Trucking!
No Problem
Heaven Can Wait (We Hope)
Compression Method 1
Every Lemming For Himself
Mary Poppins' Land
Poor Wee Creatures
You Take The High Road
Ice Spy
Got Anything... Lemmingy?
Introducing SuperLemming
Last Lemming To Lemmingcentral
A Towering Problem
How On Earth?
Rocky Road
Lots More Where They Came From
The Lemming Funhouse
Steel Works
The Crossroads
Last One Out Is A Rotten Egg
Stepping Stones
And Then There Were Four
Have A Nice Day
The Steel Mines Of Kessel
Over The Wall
No Hurry, Relax
Old MacDonald Had A Farm
Now Get Out Of That!
Flow Control
Synchronised Lemming
Have An Ice Day
Look Before You Leap
Fix The Road, Quick!
None title
Try Anything Once
Which One Are You Trying To Get?
Watch Your Step
Is This A Circus?
Water Processing Plant
Haunted Botanical Garden
Be Sure To Be A Builder

-== Rank 4 ==-
Watch Right Or Left (Part 2) <--- although we have part 1, they seem barely related, change name?
Train Your Body
Precarious Oasis
Electric Circuit
Looks A Bit Nippy Out There
Lemmings In A Situation
AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!
It's The Price You Have To Pay
Be More Than Just A Number
Two Ponds
Rendezvous At The Mountain
Mind The Step
Going Up
One Way Or Another
Down, Along, Up. In That Order.
The Boiler Room
Up, Down or Round and Round
Five Alive
Temple Of Love
Chill Out!
The Silence Of The Lemmings
Onward and Upward
Mutiny on the Bounty
Higgeldy Piggeldy
Lemming Head
Watch Your Step!
It's Not Over Til It's Over
Dolly Dimple
And Now, The End Is Near
Rocky VI
Worra Load Of Old Blocks
Don't Panic
Upside Down World
Jump Down
Take Care, Sweetie
Down The Tube
Poles Apart
The Great Lemming Caper
Just A Minute
Just A Minute (Part 2)
Just A Minute (Part 3) <--- do we really want all three parts?
With A Twist Of Lemming Please
Save Me
Let's Get Together
Scaling The Heights
Everyone's A Hard Nut
The Gate Trap Lemmings

-== Rank 5 ==-
I Am A.T. <--- I'd like to remove this one but I get the feeling that preference will be strongly opposed
Out, Away From The Tune
Evacuating A Coal Mine
Underground City
Pitfall
Where Lemmings Dare
It's All A Matter Of Timing
Lemming About Town
The Race Against Cliches
There's Madness In The Method
Climb and fall. Fall and climb. <--- is a duplicate that slipped under the radar ("Don't follow me.")
It's Hero Time
This Corrosion
Fall And No Life
No Added Colors Or Lemmings
Lemmings' Ark
Private Room Available
Final Impediment
Fall And No Life (Part 2)

-== Probably Remove =--
No Problemming! <--- stupid
Hunt The Nessy <--- boring and buildery
SEGA Five <--- much easier than either version of SEGA Four, and possibly the other three too
Heaven Can Wait II <-- virtually the same as the standard version, but easier
Wild World Of Lemmings <--- boring and buildery
Winter Lemmingland <--- relies on hidden traps for difficulty
Pea Soup <-- boring and buildery
Time To Get Up <-- most difficulty comes from bomber timing. May be better to include "Lemmings in the Attic" as an easy level.
Congratulations! <--- out of place if not final level, and definitely not suitable for final level

[Proxima]

So this is turning into something very different from what I originally envisioned, which is fine if that's how the community wants to take it. I think we should pause and give everyone a chance to weigh in on this, since this is a big question that affects all the decisions we make from here on.

The question is: should this be an inclusive project, in which we try to keep as many levels as possible, or an exclusive project, in which the main aim is to make a pack that's fun to play through as a whole, and is probably 100 or so levels shorter than the inclusive version? Or do we make both?

[namida]

I don't feel we should make two versions. Rather, in regards to inclusivity or exclusivity, I think the main questions are (if you think there are others, feel free to mention them!):

1. Do we include Holiday Lemmings or not?
2. Do we avoid repeats for the most part, perhaps retaining them where both versions are interesting (or where one version serves a training purpose)?
3. Do we remove levels purely on concerns of quality, or only in cases where they're outright redundant?

My preference is not to include Holiday Lemmings (I can't really explain why, it just feels strange to me), avoid repeats as a rule of thumb but allow exceptions if there's a good reason, and do remove levels if they're considered low quality.

I've made some suggestions, particularly in regards to the 3rd point, in my above list. But please don't consider this anywhere near final - if you have input you'd like to give, give it! This is especially important for those who are more familiar with ONML / Genesis version, as I'm probably not nearly as familiar with those as many people here are, even though I have played both (well, in the latter case, played the levels from it via Lemmix).

[namida]

Other thoughts:

An additional possible structure for the pack is to have an introductory training rank, including the 7 training levels (and perhaps "Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming"). Then, divide the remaining levels across 5 or so ranks; this will result in really large ranks, but I would also think it's most likely people will try to play in order regardless (especially if new to Lemmings) so I'm not sure how much this matters.

Since all the special graphics levels fall under first rank difficulty, I'm even more strongly leaning towards removing these now. Using the DOS / Amiga versions instead of the Genesis ones doesn't really make them any harder either; just longer, and therefore, more likely to be removed due to being fairly boring levels.

How strict do we want to be in terms of difficulty curve? I do think it's a good idea to not emphasize "every level is harder than the last one", but rather have somewhat of an up-and-down curve (although overall increasing, and no major out-of-place levels). Either way, my above list will still need much improving.

Do we want some additional training levels, perhaps for features such as traps? It'd be very preferable to not introduce any completely new levels, but perhaps some of the removed earlier-repeats (or new earlier-repeats of included levels, even) could serve this purpose. Or are these things the player should be left to figure out as they play - keeping in mind that what may have existed in the official game as early examples, are no longer present. (For example, traps would previously have been introduced out-of-the-way in Fun 15; avoidable but likely to be encountered at first in Fun 17; and nearly unavoidable in Fun 21; none of these levels are in the above list, though SEGA One and Through The Graveyard could serve similar purposes.)

[Flopsy]

Throwing in my 2 cents

First of all, I can't really comment on the difficulty of the Genesis levels since I have yet to play that game myself.
For that reason, I'm probably not going to be much help with the ordering of the list itself since a lot of the levels I don't recognize.

On the subject of level names with Part 1, Part 2 etc. If they are in the correct order still on the list then they don't need changing obviously but if they are in the wrong order then they do need a name change to reflect the out of order-ness.
Something I thought of while scrolling through the list is making sure there isn't multiple levels in consecutive order which uses the same graphic set. The only thing that comes to mind is late in ONML there were a lot of Brick graphic set levels in a row and it was noticeable and a bit annoying (for just me maybe?!)
Anyway noticed it happens quite low down in Rank 3.
Got Anything... Lemmingy?
Introducing SuperLemming
Last Lemming To Lemmingcentral
A Towering Problem

With regards to the Special graphic set levels, I'm a fan of these levels. Even if they are close together, in the first rank and easy that doesn't make me want them any less. Couldn't help noticing the Sunsoft Special is missing aswell, one Genesis level I do know about

I'm generally in agreement with the list at the bottom of levels which will be removed as the reasoning is justified, although again don't know anything about the Genesis levels. Just wish King of the Castle could join them

Holiday Lemmings, not a fan of the game in general there were some good levels in the harder ranks of HL93 and HL94, Lemmy in the Cold, Cold Ground and Emmings! (No L) are some good ones to include but I wouldn't miss the levels too much if they weren't included.
Good levels to be included if we went for a small number of them.
Hail 10 - Lemmy.... (above) - Fun level overall, 3 entrances and you have to work together to save the left most lemmings. Skill set is a bit limited also.
Hail 11 - Emmings - 2 entrances aligned one above the other, bringing them together is a fun solution.
Frost 10 - Four Play - 4 Lemmings and tightish time limit.
Blizzard 8 - Presents of Mind II - Solution is not obvious in this one, a bit of a puzzle.
Blizzard 15 - The Needs of the Many - A few builders in this one but the skillset is limited in other skills.
These are the only levels I considered memorable in the Holiday Lemmings series.

I'd be for separating out the training levels into a separate rank as well, I'd consider the Tame levels as Training levels.
Also on the point of Tame, please don't remove any of the last 5 levels in the rank because I've only ever played the first 15 of them due to the last 5 being omitted from the PS1 and Win95 Lemmings for some bizaare reason. On the ONML side of the game, they removed Superlemming and the last 5 levels of Tame and I could never understand why the Tame levels?
Luckily we lost the 60 version of We All Fall Down on the Lemmings side but we lost all the Special graphic sets levels and All the 6's

Other than what I've said, I'm very much in agreement with what's been said so far

[namida]

I very much doubt any Tame levels will be removed. As mentioned, there's a shortage of easy levels to a degree. (Also, for the record - it's only the last 4, not the last 5, that are missing from Win95 Lemmings. I'm not sure about the PS1 version. Also - I thought it was the 20 version of WAFD that was removed?)

But I wouldn't consider them "training levels" either; but just very easy levels. If there's a training rank, they won't be in it. On the other hand, if we simply put the training levels in the first rank, then the Tame levels would likely more or less follow directly on from these.

In regards to consecutive levels in the same graphic set - don't worry too much about this for now; as mentioned, for now, the focus is on dividing by rank rather than ordering (although to a degree, these overlap). But it probably is worth keeping in mind at a later point. A lot of brick levels also have remakes in the Genesis version, so if we're a bit too brick-heavy, we could use those versions instead.

I wouldn't want to include just a small number of Holiday levels. As Mayhem 24 says, "(Almost) All or nothing". Which is somewhat ironic, since that level is one of the ones that isn't being included.

[Proxima]

Now that I've more time to think about the ordering of levels, I don't think the "shortage of easy levels" is nearly as bad as I at first assumed -- certainly not bad enough to justify keeping all or even half of the Tame levels. Surely we don't want to put new players through that yawnfest. The Fun levels present genuine challenges to overcome, so that the player feels they are building on the skills they learned in the tutorials, whereas if you can pass Tame 1 you can pass the whole set.

I would argue for keeping the special levels in the same spirit as they were originally intended -- a once per rank "just for fun" level. Doesn't matter that they don't fit the difficulty curve -- the odd breather level is much less of a problem than abrupt difficulty spikes.

Here's a draft order for a redux Fun set, to show that it could work with only a small number of Tame levels:

Training levels -- Either keep as they are, or, for a repeats-free pack, replace Fun 2, 4, 7 with 2P Level 33, Tame 11, Tame 8, and give those levels the skillsets and titles of the training levels they replace.

8 - Tame 1
9 - Adapt two-player level "The Pipe Room" (or Tame 5)
10 - Tame 4
11 - Fun 11
12 - Tame 7
13 - Highland Fling with 20 of all
14 - Go for it!
15 - Bridge Away!
16 - Tricky 3
17 - PSP 10 (Just 17)
18 - Fun 18
19 - Genesis Fun 19 (Catch more floaters)
20 - PSP 9 (Pillar talking)
21 - Through the graveyard
22 - A beast of a level
23 - Flow Control, remove red herring skills and have more lems to allow more leeway
24 - PSP 14 (Tunnel vision)
25 - Fun 25
26 - PSP 18 (The run around)
27 - Natural life
28 - PSP 20 (Lemming toast)
29 - Genesis Fun 29 (Dark dawn)
30 - Let me get out of here (of course, we should fix the pun: Lemmy get out of here)

...then there are quite a lot of levels on the late Fun / early Tricky boundary, so it would be easy to fill the set up if we decide on 40 per rank.

[607]

I'm a fan of the repeat levels myself, as long as they actually need a different solution instead of just more precision or time-management.
I don't get why you'd want to remove repeat levels but keep Tame levels. Surely, the solution matters more than the lay-out. See, the Tame levels just aren't interesting. Nearly all of them are virtually the same as any other Tame level.
I like the list Proxima compiled.
I don't think most of the Holiday Lemmings levels are too interesting, and that'd be the reason for excluding them. I don't mind the graphic set.
In this set, will the decoration that doesn't influence the solution be removed, like I think was done in the NeoLemmix Lemmings pack that was released before?

[Minim]

I agree with Proxima's list for the earlier levels. I like that creative idea of doing 20 of each skill for Highland Fling.

I just had an idea as for where to order most of the trickier levels:

The levels with just one skill (e.g. King of the castle, Take a running jump) can go near the 'start', which is roughly halfway across the whole set. Then as the levels progress the number of types of skills increase. So the last level would probably be something like "It's hero time", where all eight skills are available.

Although on second thought, if I apply this trick to all the Taxing and Mayhem levels, then levels like "How do I dig up the way" and "Watch out, there's traps about", two easy Taxing levels because of plentiful supplies, would also end up near the end of the set. Maybe I should look at the Lemmings level spreadsheet to help me out.

[namida]

Difficulty is a subjective matter, and so ordering will need to be based off feedback and consensus, rather than attempting to define it by any kind of objective criteria.

In regards to decorative terrain, excluding any possible backroute fixes (which we'll save for much later) and the switch to not use the Genesis versions of graphic sets even on Genesis-origin levels, the layouts will be identical to as seen in the existing NXPs of the games.

I think adapting 2-player levels is going too far (but if other people disagree, I can reconsider). I think we should aim to, unless there's a really good purpose to it, use only existing levels as much as possible.

A once-per-rank just for fun use of the special graphics levels is plausible, provided we stick to 5 ranks (plus a training rank, perhaps).

In regards to the Tame levels being "boring" - I'd like to ask, does there happen to be anyone here who played ONML before original Lemmings? If so, did you indeed find the Tame levels boring?

[mobius]

I attempted this on my own a long time ago but only ever made a spreadsheet about it. So you can look at this spreadsheet as my personal thoughts and opinions on this.* It's incomplete but I re-ordered some levels by difficulty and removed all the levels I didn't like.

I really liked the Genesis remakes of the ONML levels, I think the decoration on those looks better than the originals imo. I also think they picked some of the best or most memorable levels from ONML. Not many others stand out in my mind, except;
Madness in the Method
Flow Control
AAAAARRRG
This Corrosion

probably nobody cares but a while ago, for some reason I remade these levels in the Original graphics. Unfortunate I can't find them at the moment...

On training levels; I like the idea of having more than the just 8 levels for the 8 skills but other levels maybe demonstrating things like make a builder wall and turning miners etc. But this depends on what other kinds of levels are in the later part of the pack.

I strongly recommend only having 1 WAFD. the rest seem totally redundent and tedious imo. Some levels like "I am AT" were annoying on the Genesis, but I just played this level on NEoLemmix the other day and found it was not nearly as aggravating, of course I did know what to do. Perhaps you may want to ease the difficulty of that level slightly. I have "Private Room available" in that spreadsheet but I'm not strongly in favor of that level, unless it's altered; it could be awesome. It's a really nice concept imo, just flawed because of difficulty of execution.

*I didn't make this from scratch, I altered finlay's level list.

[607]

In regards to decorative terrain, excluding any possible backroute fixes (which we'll save for much later) and the switch to not use the Genesis versions of graphic sets even on Genesis-origin levels, the layouts will be identical to as seen in the existing NXPs of the games.

And that means? I don't get what you mean by the existing NXPs. Was any decoration removed, there?

[Minim]

Difficulty is a subjective matter, and so ordering will need to be based off feedback and consensus, rather than attempting to define it by any kind of objective criteria.

In regards to the Tame levels being "boring" - I'd like to ask, does there happen to be anyone here who played ONML before original Lemmings? If so, did you indeed find the Tame levels boring?

Not sure how much help this is considering that we're using so many levels, but I just found one of Proxima's old posts suggesting a level order for ONML here. He also mentions ten of the least interesting Tame levels to solve, and replaces them with some of the easiest levels in the proper difficulty ranks.

I think we should exclude all the 2P Levels unless there is some kind of unique feature or method to them.

In regards to repeated levels, I'd keep the first and third "Just A Minute" levels because of different level graphics (also, the second is not as much fun as the first because of less terrain) and keep the third WAFD level (60 lemmings). Obviously WAFD is quite tedious, but do we want fewer lemmings or a bigger challenge? I'd say 60 lemmings is just right in terms of difficulty and tedium.

[namida]

I'm going to put polls up in regards to some of these questions, as this gives a clearer idea of how people feel about things (and takes away the pressure one might feel of having to explain why).

First one is in regards to whether or not to include Holiday Lemmings. Please be aware that I've deliberately decided not to have any inbetween option of "have a few of them only". If we're going to include them at all, they should be given the same regard as levels from any other game (and what exactly that is will be decided later; the point here is simply that Holiday won't be treated any differently if it does get included).

[Proxima]

I voted "Yes" to Holiday because I think we should do exactly that -- keep them on the list for consideration, decide which to remove, which will mean removing almost all the Holiday levels, but there are a couple of good ones in there that we could use.

However, I don't feel strongly about it. Removing them all would certainly save a bit of time and effort.

[namida]

Seems people do want Holiday to be included, so I guess Holiday Lemmings is eligible too.

So, onto the next question - repeats! I've put up three options:

a) Don't take repeat status into account. Judge each level individually, regardless of whether it has / is a repeat or not, and regardless of whether its alternative versions made it in (obviously cases where they're virtually identical, such as WAFD or Fun 18 / Taxing 19 would be exceptions).
b) Allow them but only in exceptional cases, such as where one version is a training level. This is my preferred option.
c) No repeats at all. This will likely mean we can't have training levels, as otherwise it'd mean having to cut out some excellent levels such as Postcard From Lemmingland and No Added Colors Or Lemmings.

[Proxima]

This will likely mean we can't have training levels, as otherwise it'd mean having to cut out some excellent levels such as Postcard From Lemmingland and No Added Colors Or Lemmings.

See my post at the top of the page for a suggestion as to how we could keep training levels, and keep Postcard and No Added Colors, without using repeats.

Still, I've voted for (b) because I think there are some exceptional cases where we should keep both of a repeat pair -- the clearest example is Fall and No Life and its repeat, which are both among the very best puzzles in the game.

But in general, I've now changed my original view and I think we should get rid of repeats wherever possible. This is because most repeats in the original game were created to fill the lack of easy levels -- but now that we have Covox, Prima, PSP and the possibility of using a small number of levels from Tame and Holiday, we just don't need those repeats any more. (Again, see my earlier post for an example of how this could be done.) For training levels, I think it's more interesting to use a different layout, so that one more unique layout is present in the game.

I think the only circumstances in which two repeats should both be kept are if (1) they are both good puzzles in their own right; (2) the harder one is a good puzzle and the easier one is a good 20-of-everything that's fun to play around with and the level set definitely loses something by omitting it. Now, it's entirely possible that some levels I've omitted in my draft ordering fall under category (2) and should be retained. That's something we can discuss later when we decide which specific levels to retain and how to order them.

[namida]

It seems once again, the polling is almost entirely in favor of one option - the "Generally disallow, but make exceptions where there's a very good reason" one.

So next question... how inclusive should we be in general?

a) Include every eligible level. We only exclude levels when doing so under the "generally avoid repeats" guideline.
b) Include the majority of eligible levels, but remove some of the less interesting ones. (Levels like "Hunt The Nessy" come to mind here.)
c) Be very selective. Decide which levels to include essentially on a level-by-level basis.

[Proxima]

As I've already implied, I am strongly in favour of (c).

With Holiday and the possibility of keeping some repeats, we have around 400 eligible levels. That is a lot to play through, and contains a lot of levels that, solution-wise, are not very different from each other. I think new players would be much more impressed with the game if we gave them a highly selective pack and they rose up the difficulty ranks more quickly. The Covox, Prima, PSP and Holiday packs contain some good levels, but an awful lot of dross. ONML and Genesis are higher-quality in general, but still have so many levels that the designers ran out of ideas and threw in a few duffs.

Honestly, I think a sensible target would be to aim for 5 x 40 levels, around half of the total.

[RubiX]

My opinion would be a  'Greatest Hits'  volume

The absolute most fun / best puzzles from all the retail lemmings games.
We've had threads about favorite maps etc in the past, lets just put the best of the best into its own game.

[Flopsy]

Proxima makes a good point about there being a lot of duff levels, not having a vast knowledge of Genesis Lemmings I still know there are some not so good levels in that.

There were some great levels in the PSP Special rank aswell, like "No Justice for the Hero" - tough level to solve when you first see it. I mean the PSP remake has not produced very fun levels in general but some of the tougher levels were pure gems I thought.

An aim for 5 ranks of 40 levels each seem appropriate, how we'll reach that I do not know

[namida]

200 levels does sound like a good target.

So, we've got:
- Consider all L1-like games
- Allow repeats only when there's a very good reason to do so (ie: not if the earlier version is just a 20-of-everything version of the latter; but allow it if they're two different puzzles, or if one is a training level, etc)
- If we're aiming for 200-ish levels, then we'll want to somewhat rely on picking and choosing, but not be too fussy about it


If we count up the total available levels to choose from (the only ones I've excluded here are the Genesis version's remakes of ONML levels, the two test maps from Genesis, and all two-player levels):
Orig Amiga: 120 Levels
Orig Genesis: 97 Levels (This includes the alternate versions of special graphics levels; obviously we will only want one version of each one at most)
Orig Master System: 12 Levels (Two versions of each SEGA level, plus Sixes Not and Stepping Stones)
Orig Others: 10 Levels (1 x Amiga Demo, 1 x Mac Demo, 4 x Budget Amiga, 2 x Bookclub Amiga, 1 x Mac Tricky 21, 1 x SNES Tricky 21)
ONML: 100 Levels
Holiday Lemmings: 70 levels (2 x X91, 4 x X92, 32 x H93, 32 x H94)
Covox: 8 Levels
Prima: 16 Levels

This brings us to a total of 433 levels. So, we'll have to decide on 233(ish) to cut out.

Perhaps looking back at the voteoff results might give us some good starting points - we should probably, in most cases, cut out those that didn't make it past the first round, except in the cases of eg. training levels, or if we're including them for the purpose of having a good difficulty curve. Basically, we can't use them as the sole deciding criteria, but they can certianly be a great help in deciding.

I don't really know that we want to go as far as including the PSP levels. Although Lemmix conversions of them do exist (and by extension, these levels have also been converted to NeoLemmix), the quality of them feels a bit iffy to me... we could remake them better, I guess, but I think we already have plenty to choose from...

[namida]

Here are the full list of levels that made it past the first round in their respective voteoffs. We can use this as a starting point.

I've bolded any levels where both versions of a level with repeats are in here; though it's quite possible I may have missed some in Genesis's case.

Also note that the voteoff didn't include the Sega Master System levels. However, if we are picking and choosing, I'd think that unless we need some extra easy levels, only SEGA Four is really worth considering (probably the Mayhem version, but it could go either way).

Original Lemmings (non-Genesis) (click to show/hide)

(All levels are standard Amiga version unless otherwise mentioned.)

Fun 09 "As long as you try your best"
Fun 10 "Smile if you love lemmings"
Fun 11 "Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming"
Fun 20 "We are now at LEMCON ONE"
Fun 22 "A Beast of a level"
Fun 22 (Budget Amiga) "Go for it!"
Fun 24 "Konbanwa Lemming san"
Fun 26 "Nightmare on Lem street"
Fun 27 "Let's be careful out there"
Fun 28 "If only they could fly"
Tricky 04 "Here's one I prepared earlier"
Tricky 06 "Lemmingology"
Tricky 09 "They just keep on coming"
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 12 "Bitter Lemming"
Tricky 14 (Budget Amiga) "Lemming Lament"
Tricky 18 "It's Lemmingentry Watson"
Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland"
Tricky 21 (Mac) "Going Their Seperate Ways"
Tricky 21 (SNES) "Ohayo Lemming San"
Tricky 22 "Turn around young lemmings!"
Tricky 23 "From The Boundary Line"
Tricky 25 "Cascade"
Tricky 26 "I have a cunning plan"
Tricky 28 "Lost something?"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Tricky 30 "The Crankshaft"
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 03 "Heaven can wait (we hope!!!!)"
Taxing 06 "Compression Method 1"
Taxing 07 "Every Lemming for himself!!!"
Taxing 08 "The Art Gallery"
Taxing 09 "Perserverance"
Taxing 10 "Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy"
Taxing 13 "Upsidedown World"
Taxing 16 "Mary Poppins' land"
Taxing 18 "Tribute to M.C.Escher"
Taxing 21 "Feel the heat!"
Taxing 22 "Come on over to my place"
Taxing 26 "Triple Trouble"
Taxing 27 "Call in the bomb squad"
Taxing 28 "POOR WEE CREATURES!"
Taxing 29 "How do I dig up the way?"
Mayhem 01 "Steel Works"
Mayhem 03 "It's hero time!"
Mayhem 05 "Down, along, up. In that order"
Mayhem 06 "One way or another"
Mayhem 07 "Poles Apart"
Mayhem 08 "Last one out is a rotten egg!"
Mayhem 09 "Curse of the Pharaohs"
Mayhem 10 "Pillars of Hercules"
Mayhem 12 "The Far Side"
Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Mayhem 16 "Just a Minute..."
Mayhem 18 "And then there were four...."
Mayhem 20 "No added colours or Lemmings"
Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please"
Mayhem 26 "The Steel Mines of Kessel"
Mayhem 27 "Just a Minute (Part Two)"
Mayhem 28 "Mind the step....."
Mayhem 29 "Save Me"
Mayhem 30 "Rendezvous at the Mountain"

Original Lemmings (Genesis) (click to show/hide)

(Levels from ranks other than Present or Sunsoft are referred to here by their position in the Extra Levels NXP / Extra Levels Lemmix player. Remakes of ONML levels are struck out, though this doesn't mean we can't decide to use the Genesis variant instead - but we definitely don't want to use both.)

Genesis 04 "Catch more floaters."
Genesis 11 "Where do you see Lemmings?"
Genesis 17 "Don't leave any Lemmings"
Genesis 21 "The bridge is breaking down."
Genesis 22 "Temporary peace"
Genesis 24 "Jump down!"
Genesis 29 "Lunch time"
Genesis 30 "Fall and no life."
Genesis 33 "Watch your fingertip!"
Genesis 35 "Let's get together."
Genesis 36 "Over the wall"
Genesis 37 "Twins"
Genesis 46 "No hurry, Relax."
Genesis 47 "Lemmings' Ark"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Present 06 "No time for a detour"
Present 09 "Fix the road, quick!"
Present 15 "Evil whisper"
Present 17 "Electric circuit"
Present 22 "None title"
Present 24 "Everyone's a hard nut."
Present 25 "Underground city"
Present 26 "Pitfall"
Present 27 "Try anything once."
Present 28 "Which one are you trying to get?"
Present 29 "Private room available"
Present 30 "Final impediment"
Sunsoft 03 "Anxiety"
Sunsoft 09 "Evacuating a coal mine"
Sunsoft 12 "Water processing plant"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 14 "No world without you"
Sunsoft 15 "Exodus!"
Sunsoft 18 "SUNSOFT Special"
Sunsoft 19 "Let's go camping."
Sunsoft 20 "Haunted botanical garden"
Sunsoft 22 "Watch right or left (Part two)"
Sunsoft 23 "Move on in two separate groups."
Sunsoft 24 "Out, away from the tune"
Sunsoft 26 "Just a minute (Part Three)"
Sunsoft 27 "Two heads are better..."
Sunsoft 28 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Sunsoft 29 "I am A.T."
Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)"

Notes on repeats:
- Genesis 37 / Present 22 are two different (though somewhat similar) puzzles on the same layout, rather than the usual X-of-everything filler level situation

Oh No! More Lemmings! (click to show/hide)

Crazy 01 "Quote: "That`s a good level""
Crazy 02 "Dolly Dimple"
Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Crazy 07 "And now, the end is near..."
Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Crazy 14 "Time waits for no Lemming"
Wild 01 "PoP YoR ToP!!!"
Wild 03 "Lemming Rhythms"
Wild 05 "Lemming Head"
Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wild 07 "You Take the High Road"
Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wild 11 "Mutiny On The Bounty"
Wild 13 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"
Wild 15 "THE SILENCE OF THE LEMMINGS"
Wild 16 "Take care, Sweetie"
Wicked 01 "LeMming ToMato KetchUp fAcilitY"
Wicked 02 "Inroducing SUPERLEMMING"
Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 05 "Chill out!"
Wicked 06 "PoP TiL YoU DrOp!"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming To Lemmingcentral"
Wicked 08 "A TOWERING PROBLEM"
Wicked 10 "Temple of Love"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Wicked 17 "Down the tube"
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Havoc 02 "Be more than just a number"
Havoc 03 "It`s the price you have to pay"
Havoc 04 "The race against cliches"
Havoc 05 "There`s madness in the method"
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 08 "Lemming about town"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 12 "It`s all a matter of timing"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"
Havoc 17 "Where Lemmings Dare"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a situation"
Havoc 19 "Looks a Bit Nippy Out There"

Xmas / Holiday Lemmings (click to show/hide)

X92 03 "A Lemming Holiday"
X92 04 "The North Poles"
H93 Flurry 05 "Christmas South of the Equator"
H93 Flurry 08 "Vacation in Gemland"
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
H93 Flurry 12 "Presents of Mind"
H93 Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"
H93 Blitz 04 "Santus Lemmingus"
H93 Blitz 08 "Presents of Mind II"
H93 Blitz 13 "The Final Frontier"
H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..."
H94 Frost 04 "Separate Ways"
H94 Frost 06 "The Land of the Bizarre"
H94 Frost 09 "Quest for Kieran"
H94 Frost 10 "Four Play"
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight"
H94 Frost 15 "Plethora of Presents"
H94 Hail 01 "Go Thataway!"
H94 Hail 04 "Lemmintaschen?"
H94 Hail 05 "Get the Point?"
H94 Hail 06 "Surprise Package?"
H94 Hail 10 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground"
H94 Hail 11 "Emmings! (No L)"
H94 Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze"
H94 Hail 13 "Polar Expedition"
H94 Hail 14 "Rendezvous II"
H94 Hail 15 "Steel Block Party"
H94 Hail 16 "Peak of Performance"

Covox and Prima (click to show/hide)

Covox Tricky 02 "Lots of Steel crates!"
Covox Taxing 01 "IceTown"
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Prima Tricky 01 "The Prima Publishing Level"
Prima Tricky 04 "The Pipeline"
Prima Taxing 03 "Oh No! Squish."
Prima Mayhem 01 "Dolly Dimple?"
Prima Mayhem 03 "Old MacDonald Had a Farm..."

Some other levels I would argue for including:
- The training levels, for obvious reasons.
- One version of We All Fall Down. Yes, it's annoying when repeated 4 times; but a single version on its own, especially if one of the later ones, could be a nice addition.
- One version of SEGA Four, as mentioned above
- All The 6's. For obvious reasons. (Perhaps in place of Ohayo Lemming San; the latter is basically just a less "offensive" but longer and more boring version of the former)
- Some Tame levels (no specific ones in mind), we're probably going to need some more easy ones.

The above list brings us to 181 levels, not including the Genesis remakes of ONML levels, but including both variants of repeats.
Adding the training levels to this brings it to 188. Also including my above suggestions of specific levels brings this up to 190, taking into account that All The 6's would probably replace Ohayo Lemming San in the list. So, if we can pick 10 Tame levels, we have our initial list; of course, we'll want to refine it a bit from there (I think we should decide on our list before trying to order it). We'd then also need to make decisions in regards to which pair of repeats to keep - and what levels to add in their places, unless we go for less than 200 for the total count (6 ranks x 30 levels = 180 levels is a nearby option) - but like I said, the goal is an initial list here, not the final one.

My votes for Tame levels would be:
- Tame 1 "Down and Out Lemmings"
- Tame 4 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
- Tame 8 "Dangerzone"
- Tame 9 "And Now This..."
- Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
- Tame 11 "With Compliments"
- Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
- Tame 13 "Thunder Lemmings Are Go"
- Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
- Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"

In the event we do decide the need for adding extra levels in place of repeats, one level I would personally push quite strongly for is "It's Not Over Til It's Over" (Budget Amiga, Taxing 15). Another one I'd quite quickly put forward (although perhaps not as quickly) is Vacation In Gemland (DOS H93). That level's already in there, I forgot the voteoffs were based on the DOS versions. xD

EDIT: I just counted now. Excluding Twins / None title, we have to remove 12 levels if we want to be repeat-free-except-the-training-levels, or 11 if we also allow the repeat in Fun 11's case (since it can somewhat also serve as a training level). Add one more to that if we also consider Just A Minute and its Part 2 to be a repeat of each other for the purpose of this. (In the case of Fall And No Life, I'd say the two versions are different enough that they shouldn't be considered repeats of each other.)


In regards to PSP levels, while there are indeed some good levels in there, one key thing to keep in mind is they never saw release on an L1 or very-L1-like engine. To me, including them would be comparable to if we were to, say, include some of the Classic Tribe levels from L2. Sure, there may be good levels among them, but I don't think it's right for this project...

[namida]

One question: If we're going to go with including special graphics levels, we should probably have one per rank. This would obviously be the original 4, but assuming a 5 ranks x 40 levels structure, we need one more. If we look at the voteoff results, we have two options - "The Prima Publishing Level" or "Sunsoft Special". Which one?

I would lean towards Sunsoft Special. It doesn't have as blatant branding of any kind, and there's a little bit more variety to the level. It's also a bit smaller.

(My ultimate preference would still be not to include special graphics levels at all, but it seems that isn't the overall preference, so we do need to pick one...)

[607]

Did we already have a poll for the special graphics levels, then?
Oh, and I can't find reference of "The Prima Publishing Level", does anyone have a picture or a video?

[namida]

Did we already have a poll for the special graphics levels, then?
Oh, and I can't find reference of "The Prima Publishing Level", does anyone have a picture or a video?

Tricky 1 in Prima.

[namida]

Alright, based on the new ideas for structure, I've started making a new potential list, divided into ranks. Note that once again, I've made no attempt yet to order levels within a rank.

What I'd like is if someone - preferably someone quite familiar with ONML - could go through and add the remaining ONML levels from this post to the list (I've added Tame, and all non-ONML levels). Use your own judgement as to where to place them for now; this is only meant to be a draft, after all. Don't worry too much about the 40 levels per rank target either - Rank 3 already exceeds it, while none of the other ranks meet it. We'll shuffle them around later.

I have de-repeated this for the most part; I've kept repeats (where they passed the first round of the voteoff) of the training levels, Fun 11 / Taxing 18, and "Twins" / "None title" from Genesis. I did make a few minor changes from the voteoff results; apart from the de-repeating, I added in the aforementioned Tame levels, the training levels, remaining special graphics levels (I currently listed Sunsoft Special for the 5th one, but if the voting goes the other way it can easily be swapped for Prima Publishing Level), etc.

(It's also not entirely impossible that I've missed some levels, especially from Holiday or Genesis.)

Once we've got a full list based on the voteoffs, we can look at further fine-tuning the difficulty curve and making more substitutions.


You may notice three levels are bolded:
Tricky 28 "Lost Something?" was previously mentioned as a level we probably shouldn't include. However, it did make it past the first round in the voteoff. Given that it has that "unfair" nature to it, but is also a one-off thing, is somewhat predictable (at least for me; the first time I played it, I immediately guessed correctly where the exit was; and there aren't that many other possibilities that seem logical).
Mayhem 11 "We All Fall Down" (yeah, I snuck it into the list already). Perhaps we should use Taxing 30 instead? I'm not sure. I don't think using the Fun or Tricky versions is worthwhile.
Sunsoft 19 "Let's Go Camping" will absolutely need backroute fixing if we want it to be anywhere near where it's currently placed on the list. If we decide against backroute fixes, this level needs to be much earlier.

[Flopsy]

I'll give those ONML placements a try namida, I feel like I know which ones are harder than others in that game.

[Proxima]

It seems sensible to decide on a final list of levels to include before doing any ordering. This is a big part of the project and we absolutely shouldn't hurry it.

The obvious defect of discarding all the first-round voteoff losers is that it discards roughly the same proportion from each set, whereas purely in terms of quality we should discard a much higher proportion of Holiday, Tame, Covox and Prima, a lower proportion of ONML and Genesis, and probably a middling proportion of Original.

That said, on a cursory glance, it seems that the first-round losers in ONML and Genesis are largely levels that aren't worth including. So perhaps we should consider downsizing the project to 4 x 40 or 5 x 30. I'm also going to have a closer look at the list of discarded levels and see if there are any we should keep -- some may have had bad luck in the voteoffs due to being against a particularly strong group.

* * *

Given that myself and Flopsy have expressed preference for keeping the PSP levels, and 607 and Minim approved of my draft ordering for the Fun difficulty including several of these, I really think this needs more consideration. And yes, let's include the Classic L2 levels as well (at least the better ones), if Lemmix remakes of those exist.

* * *

We All Fall Down: either include just the Fun copy, or none. Clicking on every lemming is annoying, and when the game includes framestepping, it's not even a test of skill, just an exercise in patience. However, the argument for keeping the Fun copy is that the behaviour of using diggers to reduce fall height is interesting and worth showing to new players. Perhaps give 20 lemmings and 10 diggers to make it more of a puzzle?

Let's Go Camping is an excellent level if fixed, so we should do that.

[namida]

The obvious defect of discarding all the first-round voteoff losers is that it discards roughly the same proportion from each set, whereas purely in terms of quality we should discard a much higher proportion of Holiday, Tame, Covox and Prima, a lower proportion of ONML and Genesis, and probably a middling proportion of Original.

That said, on a cursory glance, it seems that the first-round losers in ONML and Genesis are largely levels that aren't worth including. So perhaps we should consider downsizing the project to 4 x 40 or 5 x 30. I'm also going to have a closer look at the list of discarded levels and see if there are any we should keep -- some may have had bad luck in the voteoffs due to being against a particularly strong group.

That's why this is just a preliminary list, and will face much further discussion before coming anywhere close to final.

Given that myself and Flopsy have expressed preference for keeping the PSP levels, and 607 and Minim approved of my draft ordering for the Fun difficulty including several of these, I really think this needs more consideration. And yes, let's include the Classic L2 levels as well (at least the better ones), if Lemmix remakes of those exist.

Okay, we can discuss this more when we get up to the point of fine-tuning the level list. Please do be aware that the current remakes are often sub-standard (especially from a graphical point of view), and I do not intend to create better remakes myself. If we do decide in favor of using them, it will fall on someone else to do the remakes (or tune up the existing ones). There is also the issue that some names do not fit tidily; this could of course be fixed with renaming them, though that is something I would like to avoid as much as possible.

In regards to the Classic tribe levels, as far as I'm aware, Lemmix / NeoLemmix remakes of them do not exist. Even if they did, we would have to make a solid decision on the save requirement for them, since L2 does not have save requirements in the same way L1, and by extension NeoLemmix, does. On the bright side, the NeoLemmix version of the Pillar set does include the flamethrower object, precisely because someone (might have been DynaLem?) expressed an interest in remaking these levels for NeoLemmix at one point; as far as I'm aware the remakes never happened though.

We All Fall Down: either include just the Fun copy, or none. Clicking on every lemming is annoying, and when the game includes framestepping, it's not even a test of skill, just an exercise in patience. However, the argument for keeping the Fun copy is that the behaviour of using diggers to reduce fall height is interesting and worth showing to new players. Perhaps give 20 lemmings and 10 diggers to make it more of a puzzle?

Once again, I'd rather keep modifications to the levels to a minimum, except for the purposes of either (a) NeoLemmix-isation (generally already done for most if not all levels, apart from time limit removal) or (b) backroute fixing. However, I do indeed see your point in using the Fun version, we should definitely give more consideration to this.

Let's Go Camping is an excellent level if fixed, so we should do that.

Yes, I've heard this often, even though I don't know the "fixed" solution myself. That's why I put it in a late rank with the note that it would need fixing, rather than just throwing it into an early rank.

[namida]

Votes are completely in favor of Sunsoft Special, not a single vote for Prima (yes, it wasn't up for long, but I doubt Prima would catch up). Okay, put up a poll for how to handle WAFD.

[Wafflem]

In regards to the Classic tribe levels, as far as I'm aware, Lemmix / NeoLemmix remakes of them do not exist. Even if they did, we would have to make a solid decision on the save requirement for them, since L2 does not have save requirements in the same way L1, and by extension NeoLemmix, does. On the bright side, the NeoLemmix version of the Pillar set does include the flamethrower object, precisely because someone (might have been DynaLem?) expressed an interest in remaking these levels for NeoLemmix at one point; as far as I'm aware the remakes never happened though.

I tried doing this with the first level, but the problem is that there are some tiles in the L2 Classic version that do not appear in the L1 Pillar tileset. This, plus with some IRL stuff and trying my hand at my first set of NeoLemmix levels (this pack have been deleted since then, and some of them will appear in my large pack) have caused me to stop doing this.

There are some Lemmix remakes by MC Marshy and I think doggycharly. Nepster's converted some Lemmix levels to NeoLemmix, so you might find those there.

The simpler thing to do would be to use PacGuy765's Lemmini conversions.

[namida]

Ah, didn't know about those. Lemmini levels can almost as easily be converted to NeoLemmix ones (in cases where custom additions to the graphic set are used, they might not always correspond perfectly, but this is usually easy enough to fix up).

However, one problem there is that PacGuy tends to be a bit on the iffy side about anyone else using his content. He runs a Lemmini facebook group, and (despite me having very little to do with it) he once ranted to me for ages about how someone else supposedly didn't give him credit in a highly visible way when they used some of his graphic sets... Of course, it could be argued in this case that it isn't really his content, all he did was convert it to a different engine. (EDIT: There again; that's also equally true of most of the graphic sets he was complaining about the use of.)

[Nepster]

I am currently working on MCMarshy's levels with currently three out of nine level packs finished. Hopefully I can upload these levels soon. doggycharly's levels are already available in the conversion topic.

[Flopsy]

Finished my thoughts on where the ONML levels should go.

Rank 2
Crazy 1 - Quote That's A Good Level
Crazy 14 - Time Waits For No Lemming
Wicked 6 - Pop Til You Drop (untimed bombers, 30 of 80 saved, more like a fun level now)

Rank 3
Crazy 2 - Dolly Dimple
Crazy 6 - The Stack
Crazy 7 - And Now, The End is Near
Crazy 8 - KEEP ON TRUCKING
Wild 5 - Lemming Head (untimed bombers)
Wild 10 - Higgledy Piggledy
Wicked 2 - Introducing Superlemming (Speed removed)
Wicked 8 - A Towering Problem (untimed bombers)
Havoc 10 - Flow Control
Havoc 14 - Synchronised Lemming (low time limit but easy solution)

Rank 4
Crazy 10 - ROCKY VI (hard for a Crazy level)
Wild 1 - POP Yor TOP (higher save requirement and less USABLE skills)
Wild 3 - Lemming Rhythms (Builder placements have to be near perfect)
Wild 6 - Just A Quicky (100%, 2 mins)
Wild 7 - You Take The High Road (99RR, 100%, chain link section!)
Wild 11 - Mutiny on the Bounty (Tricky solution to pull off)
Wild 15 - Silence of the Lemmings
Wild 16 - Take Care Sweetie (Tricky puzzle)
Wicked 1 - Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility
Wicked 3 - This Corrosion
Wicked 5 - Chill Out!
Wicked 7 - Last Lemming to Lemming Central
Wicked 11 - ROCKY ROAD
Wicked 16 - Five Alive
Wicked 17 - Down The Tube
Wicked 20 - The Lemming Funhouse
Havoc 2 - Be More Than Just A Number
Havoc 3 - It's the Price You Have To Pay
Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts (was tempted to put this in Rank 5)
Havoc 9 - AAAAARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!!!!! (not a difficult level overall)
Havoc 12 - It's All A Matter of Timing
Havoc 18 - Lemmings in a Situation (again was tempted to put this in Rank 5)

Rank 5
Wild 13 - ONWARDS AND UPWARDS (very strict time limit)
Wicked 10 - Temple of Love (one of the hardest levels in ONML outside of Havoc)
Havoc 4 - Race Against Cliches (tight time limit and awkward timing between the groups)
Havoc 5 - There's Madness in the Method (I don't care that Neolemmix is around, this level is hard!)
Havoc 8 - Lemming About Town (tricky solution)
Havoc 16 - Scaling the Heights (not an easy one to work out)
Havoc 17 - Where Lemmings Dare (traps near the exit would catch anyone out)
Havoc 19 - Looks A Bit Nippy Out There (Like Scaling the Heights but more tricky)

EDIT: Forgot to attach the file! oops

[namida]

Awesome.

So now, we can discuss (a) should any of these levels be removed, and (b) should any other levels be added. We have 193 levels at this stage, so if we go for a 5 x 40 structure we need a few more; while if we go for a 6 x 30 structure we need to take a few out. Either of those structures is a plausible option.

[Proxima]

Pretty good list. The only ones I don't agree with are:

Wild 1 - yes, it may be harder than Wicked 6 when both have untimed bombers, but it's not that hard. Rank 3.
Havoc 7 and 18 - very hard levels, should be Rank 5.
Havoc 3 - this is really easy, and I don't think de-backrouting is much of an option as it's not clear how to change it. Either move to rank 3, or (probably) remove.
Wild 13 - as we're removing time limits except when they are the main point of the level, I think this one will be unlimited, so it should come earlier. Probably Rank 3.

[namida]

Wild 13 - as we're removing time limits except when they are the main point of the level, I think this one will be unlimited, so it should come earlier. Probably Rank 3.

They don't nessecerially have to be the main point, but they should add to the difficulty rather than just being an annoyance. Wicked 2 is an example of a level where, although the time limit isn't the main difficulty, I would argue for keeping it, as it does nonetheless require some time-saving tricks to make it in time, without being overly fidgety to do so.

Let's also keep in mind that adjusting the time limits in some cases may be an option, for levels where the current limits make it extremely fidgety, yet removing the limit would be a bad idea. In particular, with NeoLemmix, we have the option of having part-minutes in the time limit, rather than being restricted to whole-minute limits. This way, for those kind of levels, we can add an extra 15 or 30 seconds, in cases where adding a whole extra minute would negate the whole point of having one. Of course, in the case of levels where the time limit is primarily an annoyance more than anything else (eg. Mayhem 12) or just means you've got to be quite precise with when you release the crowd (eg. Mayhem 29), or where it's fairly irrelevant in the first place (training levels), it should be removed.

[Flopsy]

These are the ONML levels I feel need to be added in

Crazy 15 - Worra Load of Blocks - (This has a Genesis remake) Always liked the trick used with Diggers in this level.
Crazy 16 - Across the Gap - I think this level is tricky and should be included
Crazy 17 - Digging for Victory - This has a similar problem to ONWARDS AND UPWARDS where the time limit is harsh. But we can adjust the time limit if necessary
Crazy 19 - Don't Panic - The design for this level is excellent, there's a few different ways to tackle this level and it's too great a level to not include.
Wild 4 - Meeting Adjourned - Yes, it's a builder heavy level but it's tricky to contain the lemmings at the start.
Wild 8 - It's A Tight Fit - Believe it or not, I like this level a lot and the solution is simple to see but hard to execute. Not a problem in Neo Lemmix I feel.
Wild 14 - Ice Spy - Just a good suggestion for Snow graphic sets which seem to be lacking in the levels already in.
Wild 20 - Got Anything Lemmingy - Another good level with a nice solution.
Wicked 18 - Another Snow graphic set, probably the hardest snow level in the game even. It's possible to do this level by going over or under and I like that about it.
Havoc 6 - Now Get Out of That - Yes it's repeating a trick with miners and builders but it's also a tricky level.
Havoc 11 - Welcome to the Party Pal - Yes the time limit is brutal and the building section in the middle is boring but I still like this level.
Havoc 15 - Have an Ice Day - I always find this level difficult every time I play it and I feel it should be included, easily a Rank 4 or 5

It's not many but I think there are some gems in this list.

[namida]

Wild 14 - Ice Spy - Just a good suggestion for Snow graphic sets which seem to be lacking in the levels already in.

Don't forget that there's a lot of Xmas set levels, which are practically Snow levels too. At any rate, I don't think we should worry too much about the graphic set - certianly, for the two levels on the list that have them (maybe more pending changes to the list), we can use Genesis remakes of ONML levels if there's too many brick levels which is a very real possibility since it's by far the most common set in ONML, but diversity of graphic sets should be fairly low on our priority list.

[Proxima]

Strong agreement on Crazy 16 and 19, these are excellent puzzles. I'm ambivalent towards most of the others on Flopsy's list -- they are not bad levels but not outstanding either, and we could add some of them back to get to a round number.

[bsmith]

All the original levels I like all appear to be included in the compilation.

From Flopsy's list I also would want Crazy 16, Crazy 19, Wild 20 and Havoc 15.

[Flopsy]

Well if we don't want to be adding levels for graphic set variety then disregard Wild 14 - Ice Spy

Still want to push Wicked 18 and Havoc 15 though because they are good levels in my opinion. Havoc 15 is a bit builder heavy but I feel it gives you just enough builders and the buried exit will catch new players out.

Happy there's strong agreement about Crazy 16 and 19

[Proxima]

Looking through the current list of retained Holiday levels, as I've said, this is a group of levels that's much lower-quality in general, and we could handily trim out most of them. I'll make two lists, firstly ones I feel strongly we should remove:

X92 03 "A Lemming Holiday" -- a Tame level, but much blander-looking than the actual Tame levels
H93 Flurry 05 "Christmas South of the Equator" -- same
H93 Flurry 12 "Presents of Mind" -- has a repeat, nothing interesting to the solution
H93 Blitz 04 "Santus Lemmingus" -- huge level, few actions, basically a simplified version of "Go for it!"
H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..." -- essentially the same as Covox Tricky 2
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight" -- nothing to it, just build a landing platform
H94 Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze" -- annoying long level
H94 Hail 13 "Polar Expedition" -- same idea as "Poles Apart" but the steel makes this trivial
H94 Hail 14 "Rendezvous II" -- same idea as "Rendezvous at the Mountain" but much uglier

...then ones I would prefer to remove, but feel less strongly about:

H93 Blitz 08 "Presents of Mind II" -- still not very interesting, just multi-tasking widely separated lemmings
H93 Blitz 13 "The Final Frontier" -- just hold the crowd and build, we have enough levels like this
H94 Frost 04 "Separate Ways" -- another one where the main "difficulty" is multi-tasking
H94 Hail 05 "Get the Point?" -- mostly just building, though it does have some unique elements
H94 Hail 16 "Peak of Performance" -- assign one floater at the bottom to separate them. Okay, it's kind of nice to have a level showing new players this trick.

The other listed levels, I think we should keep.

[Proxima]

Of the L2 Classic levels, the two I most want to include are Level 2, "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door", and Level 3, "LEMTRIS".

Here are remakes of those two levels.

Also remade 1 to give myself more editor practice

[mobius]

in replay to the present poll [on We all fall down]
I think this answer depends on what other types of levels are included. If there are few or no other digger themed levels then included the Mayhem version might be better.* IF not, for example if levels like I am AT or Private room available are included I don't think it's necessary and would be too much of the same thing. Tedious levels should be few and far between.

*First time playing the Mayhem version I actually had a little fun solving it because it isn't as simple as it seems at first; or as the earlier versions [I'm pretty sure I skipped over the Taxing version however.] If you just make every lemming dig you'll run out of room and takes a little bit of thinking to realize what to do. But then, if the mayhem version is included I wouldn't include any others, only maybe the first one, if there's a level slot to spare which I doubt there will be.

[namida]

But then, if the mayhem version is included I wouldn't include any others, only maybe the first one, if there's a level slot to spare which I doubt there will be.

There will only be one version, if any at all.

[Minim]

Earlier on in terms of which WAFD we should keep I think I initially said we should keep the Taxing version. Now I've changed my mind and voted against including the level.

I think we should stick with the idea of having 200 levels, split into 5 ranks of 40 levels.

I thought of another idea yesterday, and that is to order the levels based on the length of their solutions. To make sure they're from the same writer I used the Lemmings Encyclopedia. I discovered that Mayhem 5 had the longest solution from Original and Havoc 19 from OhNo.

So, taking a look at Flopsy's inclusions for ONML, that brings the total up to 205. Taking a look at Proxima's removal requests for Holiday,  the one I totally disagree on is Blitz 15. There's more to this level with some floaters (and fewer lemmings too) than the Covox version. Apart from that, I agree that we should at least remove Blitz 8, Frost 13, Hail 12, Hail 14 and X92 03; maybe more if we've actually made the decision to include some L2 Classic levels, but at least this keeps the total at 200 for now.

[Proxima]

It won't stay at 200; I'm going to go through all the other sets and suggest further removals. I just tackled Holiday first because the list of suggested removals would be the longest. At the moment, my target is to make suggestions for how we could get down to 150 or 160 levels -- though of course it's up to everyone else whether to agree with these.

[IchoTolot]

40 level per rank is a bit much.  How about 6X30 = 180. A bit lower than 20 and not too many levels per rank which could be annoying to scroll through.

[RubiX]

When I first got the Amiga, about 1992 It was a computer package called "Cartoon Classics"  (Amiga 500+)
Containing:

Lemmings
Captain Planet
Bart vs The Space Mutants
Deluxe Paint

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?

[607]

Currently, the votes are split 50-50 between keeping We All Fall Down or removing it...
Anyway, I like how this project is shaping up so far!

[RubiX]

I always had some anger regarding we all fall down towards DMA for doing this to the game.

Taking away the placeholders of what could have been more original maps just to replace it with cheap filler levels 4 times was very wrong.   This is why I strongly would rather not even have to look at it.   On the upside, only having it a maximum of 1 time isnt going to hurt.

With the multiple other maps that were used just twice in lemmings I feel only slightly the same way, however the maps were much more enjoyable remakes than:  we all fall asleep

[namida]

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?

These levels are potential candidates. The draft list has 3 of othe 4 unique-to-that-version levels on it.

[RubiX]

Thx Namida

[ccexplore]

Taking away the placeholders of what could have been more original maps just to replace it with cheap filler levels 4 times was very wrong.

I think they were going for some sort of running gag by repeating it that many times.  I just don't think it was all that funny by the 4th time though.   I also suspect they just felt they couldn't afford to spend additional time on more original levels not knowing how much of a hit the game would become (and a game that's effectively almost a new genre at the time), hence the high number of repeats overall.

=================

Anyway, WAFD ain't exactly award-winning, so I don't think I'll miss it if it's excluded completely, but at the same time I don't think I'd mind too much if it was included somewhere just once without repeats.  Even unique levels from other ports can sometimes be pretty lame as well (eg. the "solvable by doing absolutely nothing" Apple Computer special graphics level).

[namida]

Okay so, the winning option currently is "Don't include it at all". However, the total votes for any version (regardless of which one) outnumber it. Between the votes that are for including some version, Fun and Mayhem are tied for the most.

So I'm going to put up another poll between these two versions; and keep in mind that it's one of the levels we should look at quite closely in regards to possible removals. Apologies to the people who already voted one of those two options.

[mobius]

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?

I've only heard of this recently and I've never seen that level. Why were these levels removed? Was this explained somewhere?

[namida]

There were a few levels in Lemmings that I have not seen since first playing through the game, it seems that they got removed from later versions of the original lemmings for some reason?  Cant remember all the names, except one of them which was in TRICKY [Lemming Lament] which I thought was a good map back then.   Anyone know of these levels I talk of, and can they be found and possibly added to the pack here?

I've only heard of this recently and I've never seen that level. Why were these levels removed? Was this explained somewhere?

They weren't removed as such. Rather, there was a "Budget Amiga" version of the game designed to fit on a single disk, or something like that; this didn't leave enough space for the special graphics levels, so those were removed, and these other levels were added in their place.

Some other versions that lack special graphics levels (eg. Master System) also include these levels, although at least in the case of Master System the difficulty of them was dumbed down a bit (although Lemming Lament, or "Menace" as it's called in that version, still remains the hardest level in Tricky).

[namida]

Looking through the suggestions so far, here's what seem to be the suggestions for additions / removals - please let me know if I've missed any!:

-= Additions =-
Crazy 15
Crazy 16 - suggested by multiple people
Crazy 17
Crazy 19 - suggested by multiple people
Wild 1
Wild 4
Wild 8
Wild 13
Wild 20 - suggested by multiple people
Wicked 18
Havoc 6
Havoc 7
Havoc 11
Havoc 15 - suggested by multiple people

-= Removals =-
Havoc 3
X92 3 - suggested by multiple people
H93 Flurry 5
H93 Flurry 12
H93 Blitz 4
H93 Blitz 8 - suggested by multiple people
H93 Blitz 13 - suggested by multiple people
H93 Blitz 15 - disagreed by another person
H94 Frost 4
H94 Frost 13
H94 Hail 5
H94 Hail 12 - suggested by multiple people
H94 Hail 13
H94 Hail 14 - suggested by multiple people
H94 Hail 16


Of the removal suggestions, I strongly disagree on H94 Frost 13 "2 minutes before midnight" (it has the added difficulty of that the splatform must be built without blocking access to the exit; sure, it's not a very hard level, but it isn't worthless), and somewhat disagree on H94 Hail 12 "Merry Christmaze" (it's an interesting concept somewhat, and a fairly easy level which is something we're somewhat lacking in at this point) and Blitz 15 (for much the same reasons as Minim).

[Minim]

Looks like we have a consensus. The Mayhem version would be used! I'm glad I voted for that one as IMO this one is more interesting than the Fun version because it adds a few elements in terms of difficulty.

So, I've lost track on how many levels we've got at the moment. Are we still on 205?

[namida]

Seems indeed like the Mayhem version is preferred.

Are there any further agreements / objections / additions to the above addition/removal lists? If not, I'll update the level listing taking these changes into account (for now, I probably won't take off / add ones that were controversial; obviously we'll have to look at them at some point).

[Proxima]

Yes, I'm still going to go through the other level sets as I did for Holiday, and suggest removals. I will also disagree with some of the suggested additions 

Havoc 3 is mislabelled; it's a suggested removal (by me), not an addition.

[namida]

Fixed that in the above list.

Regarding Havoc 3 though, I think it's quite clear what the intent here was - how to enforce it may be a bit harder. Are there any other levels on the list that use this trick? If not, I think that it may be worth at least keeping it on the list for now; when we decide on more levels to cull later once we have a set target (particularly if we can't fix it), we could remove it.

[Minim]

I played Havoc 3 and discovered something. I think in the DOS version a basher is sometimes able to stroke past two walls if you bash in the right place. The NeoLemmix Mechanics cuts that glitch out. Anyway, I discovered three methods.

First (and that I think is the intended solution, saving a climber and a floater AFAIK) is to bash the three pipes, and let one lemming turn back to do the hard work while the other lemmings explore the landscape. The big bubble wall must be mined, but let the worker lemming climb a bit to gain a bit of height before doing so. He can therefore build once the breakthrough is made so that he can mine the wall he just climbed. As you need 100% IMO holding the others back like this is a unique method, and uses the full landscape fantastically well. I see that trick is repeated into Havoc 13 on the TLE (Not sure if we're keeping this or not). I think that's a backroute, as the intended solution is to build over the big rocky wall, mining near the end of it, before bashing the next.

Another method on Havoc 3 that TLE discovered was to force your way into the terrain pit, building into it, possibly keeping a few lemmings at bay with climbers, but bashing one the stair is made and enough height is gained. Trapping lemmings like that is also quite a unique concept.

The third is to just mine and build the last pipe with the second lemming, and bash the bubble wall with the first like most players would. I think that's unintentional, as it abuses the terrain of the starting platform, but we can't really do anything about that for now.

So, given the unique trapping method in what I think is the intended solution, I say we should keep this level.

[Flopsy]

That Havoc 3 basher glitch occurs in the Windows 95 and PS1 version of Lemmings aswell.

It bashes through sometimes 2 vertical pipes depending on the basher placement, giving you a spare basher to solve the rest of the level.

I was never a fan of this level personally, the only good thing about it is it's a Bubble graphic set which is the most underused ONML graphic set. But again we're not considering graphic sets anyway, it's just one of my favourite graphic sets.

[namida]

The cause of this, at least in DOS L1, is that a basher will never stop simply as a result of no terrain in front of him on an even-numbered stroke (he can still stop on an even stroke due to having nothing to stand on, or hitting steel / a wrong one way). This is no longer true in NeoLemmix; however it very well may still be possible to bash through two in one basher if very well placed (I haven't tested to find out for sure) because, even though the lemming can stop on an even-numbered stroke, the terrain check covers a larger distance from the lemming.

It'd sound like a fix to this level would need to somehow involve preventing building over the poles. Come to think of it, the level can be solved without builders (apart from one to cross the gap near the start), right? If so, then the fix at least to that backroute would be simple - reduce the number of builders to 1.

[namida]

Here's a new list, taking into account those addition / removal suggestions. I've also made sure no rank has more than 40 levels; however, since we have 196 total candidates at the moment, this does mean one rank has less than 40 levels (just happens to be the 4th rank, mostly just as a result of the order I did things in when moving levels to avoid excess).

So, the next thing to decide I guess is our target. 5 ranks does work pretty well, especially with only having 5 really suitable special graphics levels available, so I would prefer to stick with this. This gives us three options that retain a fairly nice number of levels per rank - 200 levels (5 x 40), 175 levels (5 x 35), or 150 levels (5 x 30). I've put a poll up as to which one should we go for.

Also, chances are this list is far from optimal in regards to the division of levels into ranks, so feel free to suggest alterations. Do however note that currently, I haven't considered the order within a rank - the ordering in the attached file is just based on their original positions in the source games.

[Flopsy]

Well one thing I've noticed already is "Wild 13 Onward and Upwards" is both in Rank 3 and Rank 5 so it appears on the list twice (I feel that level is better in Rank 5 with the 3:00 time limit intact otherwise it is a Rank 3 with an increased or no time limit)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Wild 4 Meeting Adjourned I feel is too hard to be a Rank 2 (100% and hard to contain lemmings), can easily swap with Higgledy Piggledy in Rank 3 (lax save requirement, simpler solution).
Wicked 18 Lots More Where They Came From would be better in Rank 4, swap with Crazy 2 Dolly Dimple and bring that to Rank 3.
Havoc 9 ARGH! could easily move down to Rank 4, I found this to be easy for a Havoc level.
Taxing 6 Compression Method 1 should move up from Rank 2, that level was a brick wall for me back in the early days for me!
Taxing 26 Triple Trouble - How is this even a Rank 2? Rank 4 easily I'd say.
Crazy 17 - Digging for Victory - Again like Onwards or Upwards, it needs to move up from Rank 2 if the 3:00 time limit remains otherwise it can stay in Rank 2.
Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts - This level is very hard for a Rank 2 level and would be better off in Rank 4 or even Rank 5!
Havoc 6 - Now Get Out of That, this level could possibly move down to Rank 3 from Rank 4.
Taxing 18 - Tribute to MC Escher - Possible move from Rank 2 to Rank 3, not an easy one to work out and too close to Fun 11 which is it's repeat.
Taxing 21 - Feel The Heat - This level I feel is also a little too hard for a Rank 2.
Hail 10 - Lemmy in the Cold Cold Ground - Also feel this level is too hard for a Rank 2, this one is possibly the hardest Holiday Lemmings level in my opinion. Definitely should be up in Rank 4 with Emmings! (No L)
MENACING and AWESOME should be swapped I feel, Don't feel like MENACING is harder than AWESOME.

This is only my opinion though and can only really comment on Original, Holiday and OHNO.
Nonetheless, well done namida for sorting them into more equal numbered ranks

EDIT: Spoiler tagged my suggestions for rank movement since it seems we're not quite ready for that stage yet.

[Minim]

Looking at the poll, I see more users are choosing to hit 200 rather than be a "deletionist" and subtract some levels to reach 175, the one I voted for. That's OK, because I have a couple more Genesis Levels that I'd want to see in the redux:

Genesis 43: "A group of entrances" This level has the rare double OWW, not seen in any of the Amiga Lemmings Levels.
Present 18: "King of Lemmings". Despite being only a builders & bashers level, the layout of this level makes the solution very interesting. The worker and the group need to go through different paths.
Present 19: "Acrophobia". It's challenging trapping the lemmings without having to hit the traps above. One slight drawback however is that bombing the stairway leading up to the trap takes perfect pixel precision.
Present 23: "Precarious oasis" Nice puzzle. 'nuff said.
Sunsoft 5: "Watch your step" Takes a fair bit of skill trying to bash at the correct height, but unlike Crazy 7, you don't need to save 100%, and you also don't have to climb a huge wall before doing so.
Sunsoft 21: "Be sure to be a builder" Another one of those unusual "One-way blocking the exit" levels. However, ignore this level if all the lemmings happen to go over it.

Another surprise addition I'm thinking of is Genesis 14: "Go out for a walk?" I don't remember seeing climbing bombers for walkers to ascend to higher ground anywhere else in Lemmings. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong though.

[Proxima]

Why the hurry? I said I was going to disagree with some of the suggestions as well as making others. And that will drastically affect what the list looks like, which will affect decisions about the number. Do I not have a voice in this any more?

* * *

Strong agreement re Acrophobia. That one probably lost in the vote-offs due to the direct drop backroute, but in NeoLemmix the de-backrouting work is already done for us.

[IchoTolot]

I am still for keeping it a MAX 30 levels per rank. Do not overload them too much. If you go 150+ do more ranks with fewer levels instead of the 30+ ranks.

[bsmith]

I agree with IchoTolot.  IIRC, 30 is the largest rank size in the official sets and that gets long on harder difficulties.

My preferred ranking options would be 180=6x30 or 175=7x25 - I voted for 5x35 only because that is the closest to these numbers.  It should not be too hard to cull 16 levels out of the tentative list we have now to meet 6x30.

If we want to keep the list of 196 as is then 7x28 is an option. As long as there are no objections to the current list I would be happy with this division.

[IchoTolot]

from IRC:

<IchoTolot>I just wanted to stop the 30+ level per rank thing before it gets too clumsy. With the current implementation it is hard to go through 30+ level batches.  That why a rank-levels-list at the side of the screen will be nessesary
<Proxima>We need to slow down and finish looking at the list of levels first before deciding anything about ranks. That should have been obvious.
.....
<IchoTolot>Proxima is 100% right

[Nepster]

I agree with Proxima and IchoTolot: First we have to decide on the levels we think deserve to be included in the level pack. After that we can worry about distributing them into ranks.

And we really should slow down with deciding on which levels to include. The levels were made over 20 years ago, so there is absolutely no time pressure to get the pack together!
We even had a vote on the WAFDs already, while it was absolutely impossible to guess the avarage quality of the other levels. Can anyone tell me, how I can make an educated vote, if I'm not able to compare the WAFDs to the other levels in the pack?

Furthermore I am not convinced that voting on a question is a sensible thing to do, when there was no discussion on the problem before. Sure, I can give arguments while the voting is still ongoing, but people will not be able to change their votes when getting convinced by arguments that another option would be better. So a poll is useful (and only useful) once everyone presented their arguments and had their say.
Moreover during the discussion it might turn up that the best solution is something noone had considered previously and so would have been missed as an option in the poll.

Finally you have to give us more time. How I would vote in the current poll depends very much on the number of levels I feel deserve to be included. However finding this number requires lots of research efforts that I have to do myself. Having lots of other stuff to do, I will certainly not be able to do this within the next three days. Do you really prefer votes reflecting peoples' gut feelings or do you want votes that were given proper thoughts on the matter at hand?

PS: And I still wonder why the vote counts are kept secret while being logged in, but can be viewed after logging out. That doesn't make any sense at all.

[Minim]

BTW I discovered that one entry in the downloadable spreadsheet has been mentioned twice. "Creature Discomforts". So that means we're down to 195 levels.

We even had a vote on the WAFDs already, while it was absolutely impossible to guess the avarage quality of the other levels. Can anyone tell me, how I can make an educated vote, if I'm not able to compare the WAFDs to the other levels in the pack?

I'm just wondering in a similar sort of fashion with a similar type of question, why there are still half of the Tame levels left? If we compare those with the tutorial levels and Fun 11 then these ones are just pointless to include.

[namida]

Well one thing I've noticed already is "Wild 13 Onward and Upwards" is both in Rank 3 and Rank 5 so it appears on the list twice (I feel that level is better in Rank 5 with the 3:00 time limit intact otherwise it is a Rank 3 with an increased or no time limit)

BTW I discovered that one entry in the downloadable spreadsheet has been mentioned twice. "Creature Discomforts". So that means we're down to 195 levels.

Damnit. I thought I caught all cases of those. >_>

Why the hurry? I said I was going to disagree with some of the suggestions as well as making others. And that will drastically affect what the list looks like, which will affect decisions about the number. Do I not have a voice in this any more?

Of course you do. I'm not looking at this of a matter of "gather levels once, sort it once, bam, product finished", but rather an ongoing matter of the two. The reason being that, while obviously we need an initial list before we can sort anything at all, having a sorted list of some kind would be beneficial to see if we're lacking anywhere. We can probably see quite easily if we're lacking in really-easy or really-hard levels, but what if the weak spot is somewhere near the middle? Having a rough list also allows us to more comfortably pick a target - we may not have our final list, but we're close enough to it to start giving that consideration.

<IchoTolot>I just wanted to stop the 30+ level per rank thing before it gets too clumsy. With the current implementation it is hard to go through 30+ level batches.  That why a rank-levels-list at the side of the screen will be nessesary

And such a thing is planned for NeoLemmix in the future. Probably the not-too-distant future.

PS: And I still wonder why the vote counts are kept secret while being logged in, but can be viewed after logging out. That doesn't make any sense at all.

It should be possible to view them, without voting, even when logged in. I'll pop onto the test account and check.
EDIT: Confirmed, I can view the results when logged in on the test account. Just click the "View Results" button underneath the poll.

I'm just wondering in a similar sort of fashion with a similar type of question, why there are still half of the Tame levels left? If we compare those with the tutorial levels and Fun 11 then these ones are just pointless to include.

Because we're quite lacking in easy levels otherwise. Even with the current list, there are some levels that don't fit too well into a first rank; but they're there because they're the easiest of the levels that would fit well into a second rank. A 30 or 35 levels per rank structure may help remedy this.

If we want to keep the list of 196 as is then 7x28 is an option. As long as there are no objections to the current list I would be happy with this division.

The list is nowhere near finalized.

If you go 150+ do more ranks with fewer levels instead of the 30+ ranks.

Hm, we would have to include the other special graphics levels (Covox and Prima's ones) if we wanted to keep a once per rank thing for them going here. In fact, most of them only got in at all (at least initially; perhaps they would've been specifically mentioned later) on the "let's have one of them per rank" ticket.

[namida]

Re-posting of the list again, with those duplicates removed.

I'll stress once again - just because it's more neatly divided up, does not mean this is final in ANY way - it is not final in terms of included levels, it is not final in terms of how the levels will be divided up, or anything else! All input is still welcome! I will probably post updated lists often, and draw attention to things that we probably need to start thinking about; it doesn't mean older subjects are now decided. It means (especially the former) I don't want to fall too far behind on the suggestions, and end up forgetting about some of them altogether.

[Flopsy]

Just wanted to make a post to compile what I said in IRC among some other things.

I went on suggesting rank changes for levels in my previous post (in the  spoiler tag) because I'm very laid back and I was just following the flow of the topic at the time. I also neglected the fact that others like Proxima and IchoTolot had additional input about what levels should be included.

I never really thought about the fact that 40 levels per rank would be a bit on the high side. I did vote for 200 (5 x 40) in the poll but I'm having second thoughts on my vote after seeing the points which others have made.
I feel it should be no more than 30 levels per rank which means we would most likely be having 6 ranks if we're going to keep around the 180 mark. However it means we're going to have to shed about 15 more levels from the current list, and that is if we're not adding anymore levels otherwise we'd need to lose more. I also feel there should not be more than 6 ranks if we need more than 5 ranks.

Also, the way polls are done. I can see why they are done that way, it's to gauge an opinion on a matter without leading the topic on to talking about the matter specifically. I think it would be better to instead of using polls to decide certain scenarios. We should instead just talk about the matter in the topic as well as having the poll existing that way there is more discussion generated on the matter and we can explain why we voted the way we did. It also gives people who are unsure a chance to see what others have said even if the poll results are hidden to them.

There is no rush to get things done anyway, I agree that this project should not be rushed and it needs careful consideration on what levels should be included.

That's about all I can think of that needs to be said at the moment

[namida]

The main reason behind the polls is that there are often people who do have an opinion on the subject, but for whatever reason don't wish to make a post about it - perhaps they don't want to say "Do this, it's just what I feel would be best and can't explain why"; perhaps they'd rather give their opinion anonymously; and so on.  As always when I make polls regarding projects, the answer isn't nessecerially binding anyway - if further discussion gives a good reason to change from the winning option, it can be repolled, or even just changed without a second vote. Using the We All Fall Down example - perhaps when we decide to reduce the level count to a lower amount (if we do), We All Fall Down may end up being one of the culled levels anyway.

Since people have indicated they'd like more time to make suggestions for additions / removals, perhaps in the meantime we should start on some backroute fixes for levels we can be fairly certain will get in (eg: due to being widely liked, and scoring very high in the level voteoffs). We'll avoid doing those for levels that are far more borderline, until we're closer to a finalized list.

One level we can perhaps start with - this scored 3rd place in the voteoffs, so I think we can be fairly sure it's getting in - is Mayhem 13. I've attached a replay of what I believe is probably the intended solution. If we agree to go for this one, the changes I would propose are removing the blockers (as most backroutes rely on them, I believe) and perhaps reducing the release rate to 1 to reduce the difficulty of execution (although it's also possible to simply use some of the spare destructive skills to delay the lemming). A few variants on this solution would still remain possible, but the key idea of the lemmings taking two different paths would remain.

[Minim]

I think the intention with Mayhem 13 is to try not to make both lemmings get across the first gap together, otherwise this level would be backrouted. Your plan of decreasing the release rate might seem like a good idea, but if you just slow down the other lemming with diggers and bashers he might still be able to get across that gap along with the builder. Maybe that's why the developers actually increased the rate (50 compared to Fun 26's 30) just because this might happen.

Your solution is a not a bad one, but there is at least one interesting but valid alternative. The TLE solution uses a blocker to hold the other lemming back while the first does his job. It only takes one route but it also uses quite a fair bit of landscape and most importantly, the two lemmings aren't on the middle platform so quickly. So in that regard, I suggest keeping the blockers for this level.

At the moment I'm going through every level on the list here. My intention wasn't really to go backroute searching, but I'm glad you mentioned it though, because I discovered a major backroute on Present 27 "Try anything once" under PC mechanics. Basically, it involves digging the one way wall to free the others, thus cancelling out the top and outside area of the level. (I'm not sure if this works on the Genesis version, I might ask someone about that) If we're allowed to fix them, this level can easily be remedied however by adding steel on top of the first one-way wall.  Here is what I think is the intended solution.

[Nepster]

I will probably post updated lists often, and draw attention to things that we probably need to start thinking about; it doesn't mean older subjects are now decided. It means (especially the former) I don't want to fall too far behind on the suggestions, and end up forgetting about some of them altogether.

You might want to compile a list of all comments sorted by level. Every time you want to update the list according to opinions posted, you have to check all previous remarks anyway to see that there aren't comments contradicting the recently stated opinion.

The main reason behind the polls is that there are often people who do have an opinion on the subject, but for whatever reason don't wish to make a post about it - perhaps they don't want to say "Do this, it's just what I feel would be best and can't explain why"; perhaps they'd rather give their opinion anonymously; and so on. 

Yes, this is a good reason to have polls at some point. But my argument still stands, that we shouldn't vote without having a discussion first.

...perhaps in the meantime we should start on some backroute fixes for levels we can be fairly certain will get in.

Why backroute fixing levels at all? Aren't most of the L1 levels meant to have lots of alternative solutions? And if we really want to backroute fix levels, we run in a few problems: For most levels, I cannot see one specific solution that I would be reasonable sure to be the "intended" one. Secondly, with the huge amount of skills most levels give the player, backroute fixing will turn out to be very hard. And thridly, even if we succeed in backroute fixing, this will likely result in huge changes to level.
All in all, I thought the intention was to essentially use the original levels, and not to create challenge versions of them that force the player to use a specific solution?

One level we can perhaps start with - this scored 3rd place in the voteoffs, so I think we can be fairly sure it's getting in - is Mayhem 13.

Usually your eagerness to get things done helps a lot to reach decisions at some point. However this time I feel you are too eager. Forum threads are a very linear structure, which makes them a bad place to have multiple discussions about different subjects (which levels to include, how many, how to backroute, ...) in them. So I wonder whether it wouldn't be better to purely focus on the level selection right now, even if that means that we only discuss and don't decide anything for the next one or two weeks.

Regarding Mayhem 13: Even with your suggested fixes, the attached solution works.

[Proxima]

I agree we shouldn't decide about backroute fixes yet, but I think (for some levels) we should do them. As I see it, the point of this project is to collect the best levels, and also improve them to make the playing experience more organic according to modern standards. This includes (as already mentioned) changes such as removing unnecessary time limits. On the last page, it was debated whether Wicked 18 is worthy of inclusion due to the hidden trap; we could consider revealing some of the more obnoxious hidden traps. I think Present 19 (Acrophobia) is worth including because the absence of direct drop does the de-backrouting work for us; if that were still in, it would not be worth considering.

We don't know about the developers' intentions, and we don't know whether any particular levels were meant to have multiple solutions or not. In some cases it's easy to guess: surely the developers would not have made two versions of Acrophobia / Rules to fall if they'd known about direct drop. In other cases, developer intention doesn't matter so much, the main reason to de-backroute is simply to improve the level as a puzzle: Sunsoft 19 (Let's go camping) is a clear example. It is really ruined by the backroute, which is so easy that no-one bothers to solve it any other way.

[namida]

Backroute fixing was more or less a consideration from the beginning for this project. If all we were going to do is reorder things and take out time limits, it would almost have made more sense to stick with the original suggestion of just making some slight tweaks to the NXPs of the official games. Obviously, we don't know the original intentions in most cases, and would have to rely on educated guesses and/or consensus. However, there's no reason we can't accept multiple solutions on levels - the cases we need to look at the most would indeed be those like "Let's Go Camping".

[bsmith]

I have been thinking recently that the best thing to do right now is to try to sort all the levels according to difficulty (ignoring major backroutes) - no decisions about what to include or exclude yet; no backroute fixes either.  That way once we reach the stage to cut levels then we will have a focus on where to cut.  I'm going to try to do that this weekend.

[Minim]

Not a bad idea, but maybe we should simplify that and categorise which levels are "tutorial", "easy" and "normal" levels before we can sort them out into difficulty ratings. At the moment, we have 8 tutorial levels (Including Fun 11). "Easy" levels are those levels with many-of-each skill, and a lenient percentage requirement. We have about 25 of them (Though I might consider "Rendezvous At the Mountain" an Easy level as well despite the layout). The others are considered "normal" levels. Here's the list of "Easy" levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Genesis 11 "Where do you see Lemmings?"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 18 “Sunsoft Special”
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings"
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
Tame 08 "Dangerzone"
Tame 09 "And Now This..."
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
Tame 11 "With Compliments"
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
Tame 13 "Thunder Lemmings Are Go"
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
Fun 22 "A Beast of a level"
Mayhem 22 “A BeastII Of A Level”
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 15 “What an AWESOME level!”
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 14 “Menacing!”
Tricky 21 “All the 6’s...”
Tricky 28 "Lost something?"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"

[namida]

If we're going to use special graphics levels, I think we should keep the whole "one per rank" thing. I believe other people have said the same. Therefore, they should only be considered relative to each other, not relative to any other levels.

[Proxima]

Also, levels with several of each skill are not all easy and we definitely don't want to put all such levels before others. Watch out, there's traps about is much harder than Catch more floaters.

[ccexplore]

I feel like rather than seeing an intended solution for Mayhem 13, I want to see some of the solutions that are supposed backroutes (especially Minim as he seem to have rather specific criteria) and see how truly easier they are.  I'm not opposed to eliminating certain classes of solutions such as removing the blockers, but I guess with the Fun repeat-counterpart being so much easier, I had never even really considered there are backroutes at all in the Mayhem-repeat version.

[namida]

This would be the first one to come to mind; although it could very well be argued that this solution is clever enough to be worth leaving as well. Also, see Nepster's replay above.

[ccexplore]

Incidentally, the possibility that we might include just a subset of Tame levels just feel very strange to me.  I think I'd rather we cull more levels rather than ending up with a situation where we may be forced to use any Tame levels as padding.

[namida]

Unless we cut down to a lower amount of levels (or at least lower per rank, with a larger number of ranks) - which is, of course, also an option - the problem that arises from doing so would be that even in the first rank, things might get too hard too quickly. There's a lot of great levels among the harder ones, not so much so among the easy ones. If also keeping repeats to a minimum (currently, IIRC, we have only 5 repeat pairs), this quickly results in a situation where easy levels are lacking.

[Proxima]

Well, my opinion is that we should cut down to a lower number (I'm going to go through the list and make suggestions, as soon as I have time to do this). I'd like to use some repeats to pad out the easy set -- while not all of the original Fun set are worth including, there are some that are really good fun levels -- lots of solutions, potential for challenges, and the hard version has particular requirements that ensure it presents something distinctly new. At the moment I'll just say that Fun 27 is a clear example of the kind of thing I mean.

Also, I'm still in favour of using a small number of the PSP levels, as there are some excellent easy levels in that set.

I think, if those changes are made, we will need fewer Tame levels, but we should still include some. They do the job of bringing the gap between the skill tutorial levels and the first true puzzles much better than the original early Fun levels. In particular, Tame 1 and 4 stand out as good levels to include early in the revised Fun; Tame 5 is worth special consideration as it introduces steel. Tame 14 is a good inclusion as it's a bit more demanding than other Tame levels, and introduces the rock tileset.

[Minim]

I think cutting it down to a lower number is a good idea, rather than increasing it to make sure it reaches 200, because there are some levels, like "Welcome to the party pal", that are remarkably tedious and builder heavy. These sorts of levels - unless if they have an innovative feature, like "We All Fall Down" for example - should be removed without question.

[ccexplore]

Hmm, I guess I can at least accept the idea of using Tame as a way to introduce ONML tilesets.  I guess I'm so used to original Lemmings that I don't feel like there needs to be anything in between the tutorial levels and the Fun levels following right after them, but I get others may feel differently and I'm not oppose to the idea.  Anyway, maybe I'm not the best person when it comes to opinions related to easy levels.

And you're right namida, if we also want to minimize repeats, we probably have no choice but to replace some of the easy but repeated levels with Tame levels, even though IMO in doing so we may actually be replacing a level rejected merely due to repeats with a "worse" one from Tame.

[Proxima]

I guess I'm so used to original Lemmings that I don't feel like there needs to be anything in between the tutorial levels and the Fun levels following right after them

That's not quite what I'm saying. Between the tutorial levels and the first true puzzles (levels like "Catch more floaters", "Just 17", "Easy when you know how") there should be some easy N-of-everything levels with no or few hazards that allow the player to mess around and get a better grasp of what the skills do and how they combine. Using a few Tame levels is a great way to do this.

The original Fun 8-16 do the same job, but overall they don't do it particularly well. Fun 8 and 9 are completely trivial, worse than anything in Tame. 10 is annoying because the most obvious solution is to make everyone a floater. 11 and 12 are good levels. 13 is We All Fall Down. 14, 15 and 16 are quite good, but unnecessarily long and builder-heavy.

[Minim]

Don't know if this is necessary, but maybe we should also introduce a level based on how to clear traps. Fun 21 is not a bad example as it forces the player to go over the trap. Also makes a good introduction to water if the player wants to challenge themselves. Prima Fun 3 is a slightly better example, as while it is a bit lengthy, it does at least force the player to go under the traps. If we put steel under the first trap, then the player will have to clear the traps both ways.

[Proxima]

I agree, there should be an early easy level that shows that triggered traps exist and makes the player bypass one. Fun 21 is a fairly good example -- a little lengthy, but not builder-heavy, and it has the advantage of being an interesting level with lots of possible solutions.

I like Prima Fun 3 much less because it's visually very plain, and the obvious solution is trivial and tedious (it takes a long time compared to the number of skill assignments).

Not sure if there are any other candidates. This is one thing I'll check when I go over the lists in more detail.

[607]

(it takes a long time compared to the number of skill assignments).

But this is NeoLemmix, right? You can always fast-forward.

[Minim]

(it takes a long time compared to the number of skill assignments).

But this is NeoLemmix, right? You can always fast-forward.

Yes, we do know, but fast-forwarding levels isn't the point of the project. It is just to include some of the best puzzles in the set, which includes cutting out the tedious ones, whether it needs fast-forward or not.

I think we're in agreement that Fun 21 should be included in the set. There are actually two ways to clear the trap, build over it, or bunch them all up and release! I also realise there's water that the player may like to cross if they want to.

[Minim]

Since we've been talking about the tediousness of levels for quite some time, I came up with an awesome brainwave. I went through each level to check out the maximum time the player has to waste before assigning an alternate skill to a lemming, or before clearing the path for the others. So let's take Fun 15 for example, which involves bashing and building. I start timing by the moment he's assigned the first basher, and finish when I assign him the builder. I assign him the basher at 7:36 and then the builder at 6:54. He's wasted 42 seconds. Then when he starts building to the exit, the path is cleared at 5:46, meaning that he's taken 68 seconds. I take the higher of the two numbers shown at fill it in the table. I've completed most of the levels the intended way, but I have a few questions to raise on some of the levels that I think I backrouted.

Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)": I ended up bashing underneath the right-facing OWW at the bottom, saving a builder in the process. I still can't find the intended solution though. Replay attached below.

Present 27 "Try anything once": As mentioned before, I solved it easily by digging the one-way. Steel on top highly recommended.

Present 30 "Final impediment": I want to see this one out of the redux. I never used the platforms below, and was able to solve 100% by just working on the top two. Building to the wall and back takes a whole minute to be exact.

Crazy 19 "Don’t Panic" Not a bad level for the second rank (and I don't mind if it stays in the second rank for the Redux if no terrain alterations are made, it's a fairly decent size anyway) but I think the proper route involves going up to the OWW above, and digging down to the exit. That's why there's only one basher and two walls before the exit. The TLE's solution is a backroute as it uses two bombers to break the last wall. I've found out that you can dig and bash the floor. If we wanted to remove the backroutes, this can easily be remedied by taking away the floor in between the two walls.

Sunsoft 19 "Let's go camping." It's a worthy contender for the Redux, no doubt about it, but at the moment all I used was the top platform, freeing the blocker easily with a digger basher.

H94 Hail 04 "Lemmintaschen?" Very nicely designed lantern, but as I mentioned in my old review players can just mine and build under it, removing the challenge altogether. I thought the intended solution was to bash the lantern, including the wall with three candles above. That must be where the 20 builders are coming from.

Sunsoft 20 "Haunted botanical garden" Why a split entrance on the right side? Anyway, I didn't use all the skills, but I expected the lemmings on the left to get hit by the hidden trap after building the gap below. The thing is, they didn't. I wonder if this should be happening on the Genesis version. This post is a similar example that comes to my mind, showing trigger areas for different graphic styles. If so, then I'll need to request a fix to move that trap.

[namida]

There haven't been posts here for a while, but I do remember people saying they wanted time to give further feedback. Are these people still planning on this? (It's alright if you aren't able to do so right away; I just want to see whether I should continue waiting or start moving forward a bit.)

[bsmith]

I just finished what I said I would do earlier - go through all the levels and rate them in difficulty.  There are 480 total levels between all the official packs, many of which I had not played before.  I have attached a spreadsheet with my estimate of difficulty.

In the poll earlier I voted for 5x35.  But after combing through the levels I think it would be better to have 5x30 or even 5x25.  There is a lot of repetition of ideas in the medium difficulty levels that should be pared down for a 'best of lemmings' pack.

[Proxima]

Yes, I'm still going to go through all the levels and give further recommendations for inclusions/exclusions when I have time.

[namida]

No worries.

bsmith: I'll take a look at that tomorrow. Will be useful to have more input for level ordering.

[Nepster]

Thanks for the reminder. I haven't yet looked at Covox and Prima Publ. levels, but here are my opinions, where they differ from namida's list. Some general notes at the beginning:
1) I don't care to have one VGASpec in each rank, which might not even be possible if we go for more than 5 ranks.
2) Whenever one of the more interesting easy levels turned out to have a repeat, I prioritized "interesting game-play" over "no repeat".

Remove these levels (click to show/hide)

• Fun 22 (Beast of a level): Even if it is a VGASpec, this level is boring to play.
• Tricky 11 (Lemmings in the attic): Builder-heavy and uninteresting.
• Tricky 23 (From The Boundary Line): "Cascade" is superior in every aspect, so this level doesn't give anything new. Note that the easy version Fun 12 is in the list to be added.
• Tricky 28 (Lost something?): Totally uninteresting with no replay-value at all!
• Taxing 3 (Heaven can wait (we hope!!!!)): Builder-heavy. Caging the lemmings without blockers can be learned in other levels as well.
• Taxing 8 (The Art Gallery): Worse than first version of this level, Tricky 5, which I noted to be included instead. Stright-forward solution to an easy level. So if should be a proper easy level with more skills.
• Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land): Way too much building. Perhaps replace with H93 Blizzard 1.
• Taxing 21 (Feel the heat!): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
• Taxing 27 (Call in the bomb squad): Genesis 17 (which is included as well) has the same idea and is not only constant repetition of "block-bomb-build".
• Taxing 29 (How do I dig up the way?): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
• Mayhem 1 (Steel Works): WTF??? Builder-heavy, a non-obvious spatting fall at the beginning and the very real possibility to be one or two builders short at the end.
• Mayhem 9 (Curse of the Pharaohs): There are much better replacements out there, see suggestions for inclusions.
• Mayhem 11 (We all fall down): NeoLemmix has rendered this level totally trivial and uninteresting.
• Mayhem 16 (Just a Minute...): Part 2 suffices. The first level does not add any additional value.
• Mayhem 30 (Rendezvous at the Mountain): Boooring!
• Tame 9-14: All of them totally uninteresting. The remaining two tame levels are more than enough. See my suggestions for other easy levels below.
• Crazy 17 (DIGGING FOR VICTORY): Apart from a terribly tight time limit, this is very straight-forward with obvious placement of skills and not much replay value.
• Wild 3 (Lemming Rhythms): Does this add anything new?
• Wild 5 (Lemming Head): Does this add anything new?
• Wild 7 (You Take the High Road): In principal an acceptable level. However the great amount of scrolling required kills all the fun.
• Wicked 2 (Introducing SUPERLEMMING): As gimmicks get removed, this becomes an extremely boring level.
• Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!): As one can simply ignore two hatches, this essentially is a repeat of Wild 1. So this adds nothing to the level pack.
• Wicked 18 (LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom): The straight-forward bottom path is just terribly annoying. Either modify the level to remove this path or remove the level altogether.
• Wicked 19 (Up, Down or Round and Round): Pixel-precise placement of builders AND a hidden trap
• Havoc 6 (Now get out of that!): Wicked 5 (Chill out!) is far superior.
• Havoc 11 (Welcome to the party, pal!): Tedious to the extreme!
• Havoc 16 (Scaling the Heights): Not a bad level per se, only very fiddly. There are much better stuff to choose from.
• H94 Hail 1 (Go Thataway!): Crazy 7 is just superior.
• H94 Hail 6 (Surprise Package?): On No, more nuke abuse!
• H94 Hail 12 (Merry Christmaze): Just build at the top... So why have this level? The idea might be nice, but no like this!
• Present 22 (None title): The first version of this level is excellent, but this one? Simply uninteresting compared to that.
• Present 25 (Underground city): Not a really bad level, just a very mediocre level. The first solution that comes to the mind is not really nice and clean.
• Present 29 (Private Rooms Available): Pixel-precise nonsense.
• Present 30 (Final impediment): Does this add anything new?
• Sunsoft 9 (Evacuating a Coal Mine): Does this add anything new?
• Sunsoft 18 (Sunsoft Special): Far uglier than all other VGASpecs and most normal levels as well. Furthermore totally boring and absolutely trivial.
• Sunsoft 27 (Two heads are better): I don't see any value in this level any more, now that we have untimed bomber.

PS: There are several more levels that only barely missed their participation in this list. So if we want to reduce the size of the redux pack, this is absolutely no problem for me .

Add these levels (click to show/hide)

• Fun 12 (Patience): Easy level, which teaches high RR.
• Fun 21 (You live and Lem): Again an easy level, which is much more interesting than the Tame levels.
• Fun 27 (Let's be careful out there): Same here.
• Tricky 5 (Careless clicking costs lives): Not as good as the previous two, but still superior to the Tames.
• Mayhem 14 (Pea Soup): If we really want to include a builder-heavy level, then include this one. At least it has a funny theme and is not only building like e.g. Steel Works.
• Crazy 13 (It's a trade off): Nice relatively simple idea.
• Wild 2 (Lemming Hotel): Lots of skills and many different easy obstacles. Good level to transition from introduction levels to more advanced stuff.
• Wild 12 (SNOW JOKE): Lots of different easy obstacles again.
• H93 Flurry 11 (At Home in a Cave): If you another candidate to replace the Tame levels with...
• H93 Flurry 12 (Presents of Mind): Another simple level, that is better than the Tames.
• H94 Blizzard 1 (Oogilemming!): Not the best level ever, but certainly better than Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land).
• Genesis 23 (No choice but to follow them): Nice level of medium difficulty.
• Genesis 39 (Climb and Fall, Fall and Climb): Good level idea, that doesn't really appear in any other level.
• Present 4 (Lemmings standing on the earth): Lots of skills, not too long and not trivial either.
• Sega 5 (SEGA Five): One of the best levels to replace the tame stuff.
• PSP 14 (Tunnel Vision): Very smart level idea.
• PSP 18 (The run around): The little sister of Lemming Caper.
• PSP 24 (With a little help from my Lem): Another very good level with only two lemmings.
• PSP 26 (Back of the net): Very unique level idea.
• PSP 35 (No justice for the hero): Multiple solutions, none of the straight-forward.

PS: I don't know if we want to include SEGA or PSP levels at all.

For later reference, here two levels, that I think are greatly misplaced:

• Tricky 25 (Cascade): The hardest level in Tricky by far. Certainly not Rank 1, but rather around Rank 3.
• Taxing 10 (Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy): Better in Rank 1.

[Dullstar]

Perhaps a bit late to the discussion, but in regards to ONML and especially Tame:

I honestly don't think it's worth including more than, like, 5 of the Tame levels, and even that, I think, is a bit of a stretch.  They generally require only one or two skills to clear, and it's almost always one of the three terrain remover skills, typically used interchangeably, with the occasional builder thrown in.  Once you understand what all of the skills do (i.e. what the tutorial levels in Fun are designed to do), there is no longer any value in playing the Tame levels, as they generally aren't even usable for self-imposed challenges.

What I feel makes Fun so effective as easy levels is the fact that they DO throw challenges at the player that force the player to figure out how to bypass, but make it so the skillset is not a constraint.  This allows the player to experiment with the skills and learn how they interact with each other before having to actually use the skills to solve puzzles later in the game.

The role of easy levels isn't to be easy; it's to ease the player into the game and to prepare them for the later levels.  The Tame levels are easy, but they definitely don't prepare you for anything other than the levels immediately following the tutorial levels in Fun.

[namida]

That's definitely an interesting point. I would think it's important to, beyond the tutorial levels, have a few extremely simple ones of the Tame variety - no huge dangers, but do require the player to at least think "which skills can I use here". In other words, a small handful of Tame levels between the tutorial levels and any Fun type levels.

[Minim]

Hey, I'm glad that there are some people still interested in this. During the rather inactive period I've already compiled a list of 150 levels that I feel should be included in the redux. Because this list is so long, I've collapsed them into separate lists of different games. I've compared my list to Nepster's suggestions and have bolded the levels that he considered controversial.

Original (click to show/hide)

Fun 1 “Just Dig!”
Fun 11 "Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming"
Fun 2 “Only Floaters Can Survive This”
Fun 21 “You Live and Lem”
Fun 27 “Let's be careful out there”
Fun 3 “Tailor-Made For Blockers”
Fun 4 “Now use miners and climbers”
Fun 5 “A task for bombers”
Fun 6 “You need bashers this time”
Fun 7 “Builders will help you here”
Mayhem 03 "It's hero time!"
Mayhem 05 "Down, along, up. In that order"
Mayhem 07 "Poles Apart"
Mayhem 08 "Last one out is a rotten egg!"
Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Mayhem 16 "Just a Minute..."
Mayhem 18 "And then there were four...."
Mayhem 20 "No added colours or Lemmings"
Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please"
Mayhem 22 “A BeastII Of A Level”
Mayhem 27 "Just a Minute... (Part Two)"
Mayhem 28 "Mind the step....."
Mayhem 29 "Save Me"
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 06 "Compression Method 1"
Taxing 08 "The Art Gallery"
Taxing 09 "Perserverance"
Taxing 10 "Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy"
Taxing 13 "Upsidedown World"
Taxing 21 "Feel the heat!"
Taxing 22 "Come on over to my place"
Taxing 26 "Triple Trouble"
Taxing 27 "Call in the bomb squad"
Taxing 28 "POOR WEE CREATURES!"
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 18 "It's Lemmingentry Watson"
Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland"
Tricky 21 “All the 6’s...”
Tricky 22 "Turn around young lemmings!"
Tricky 23 "From The Boundary Line"
Tricky 25 "Cascade"
Tricky 26 "I have a cunning plan"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Tricky 30 "The Crankshaft"

ONML (click to show/hide)

Crazy 01 "Quote That's A Good Level"
Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Crazy 07 "And Now the end is near"
Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Crazy 14 "Time Waits for No Lemming"
Crazy 15 “Worra Load Of Old Blocks”
Crazy 16 “Across The Gap”
Crazy 19 “Don’t Panic”
Havoc 04 "The Race Against Cliches"
Havoc 05 "There's Madness in the Method"
Havoc 06 “Now Get Out Of That!”
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 08 "Lemming About Town"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 12 "It's All A Matter Of Timing"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a Situation"
Havoc 19 "Looks A Bit Nippy Out There"
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings"
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
Tame 08 "Dangerzone"
Tame 09 "And Now This..."
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
Tame 11 "With Compliments"
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
Wicked 01 "LeMing ToMato KetchUp fAcility"
Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 05 "Chill Out!"
Wicked 06 "PoP TIL YoU DrOp"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming to Lemming Central"
Wicked 08 "A Towering Problem"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Wicked 17 "Down The Tube"
Wicked 18 “Lots More Where They Came From”
Wicked 19 “Up, Down or Round And Round”
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Wild 01 “Pop Yor Top”
Wild 04 “Meeting Adjourned”
Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wild 07 "You Take The High Road"
Wild 08 “It’s A Tight Fit”
Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wild 11 "Mutiny on the Bounty"
Wild 13 "Onward and Upward"
Wild 15 "The Silence of the Lemmings"
Wild 20 “Got Anything... Lemmingy?”

Genesis (click to show/hide)

Genesis 04 "Catch more floaters."
Genesis 17 "Don't leave any Lemmings"
Genesis 21 "The bridge is breaking down."
Genesis 24 "Jump down!"
Genesis 30 "Fall and no life."
Genesis 33 "Watch your fingertip!"
Genesis 35 "Let's get together."
Genesis 36 "Over the wall"
Genesis 37 "Twins"
Genesis 46 "No hurry, Relax."
Genesis 47 "Lemmings' Ark"
H93 Flurry 8 "Vacation in Gemland"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Present 06 "No time for a detour"
Present 15 "Evil whisper"
Present 17 "Electric circuit"
Present 19 "Acrophobia"
Present 22 "None title"
Present 24 "Everyone's a hard nut."
Present 26 "Pitfall"
Present 28 "Which one are you trying to get?"
Present 29 "Private room available"
Sunsoft 03 "Anxiety"
Sunsoft 09 "Evacuating a coal mine"
Sunsoft 12 "Water processing plant"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 18 “Sunsoft Special”
Sunsoft 22 "Watch right or left (Part two)"
Sunsoft 23 "Move on in two separate groups."
Sunsoft 24 "Out, away from the tune"
Sunsoft 26 "Just a minute (Part Three)"
Sunsoft 27 "Two heads are better..."
Sunsoft 28 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Sunsoft 29 "I am A.T."
Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)"

Holiday (click to show/hide)

H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..."
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
H93 Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"
H94 Frost 09 "Quest for Kieran"
H94 Frost 10 "Four Play"
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight"
H94 Frost 15 "Plethora of Presents"
H94 Hail 01 "Go Thataway!"
H94 Hail 06 "Surprise Package?"
H94 Hail 10 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground"
H94 Hail 11 "Emmings! (No L)"
H94 Hail 15 "Steel Block Party"

Other levels (click to show/hide)

Tricky 14 (Budget Amiga) "Lemming Lament"
Tricky 21 (Mac) "Going Their Separate Ways"
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Prima Mayhem 1 "Dolly Dimple?"
Prima Mayhem 3 "Old MacDonald Had a Farm..."
Prima Taxing 3 "Oh No! Squish."
X92 4 "The North Poles"

BTW whether we should include it or not "Don't leave any Lemmings" is supposed to be a right-entrance level despite the right-left layout. It makes more sense to bomb the right side of the starting platform to give the lemmings a safer drop.

[Proxima]

I'll go over a few things quickly -- this isn't my full review, which I'll still do as soon as I have time.

Tame levels

I think we should include Tame 1, 4, 5 and no others, for the reason namida stated two posts up. These are actually much better suited to the role of "first non-tutorial levels" than the original Fun 8, 9, 10 -- 8 and 9 are as trivial as the least interesting Tames, and 10 is bad because the most obvious solution for beginners is to make everyone float, which is boring.

Why these three in particular? 1 is an excellent first level. 4 adds some interest with having to bring the lemmings down without splatting. 5 introduces steel.

As I mentioned previously, I also like the idea of using Tame 11 and 8 as replacement tutorial levels to cut down on the number of repeats, but if you don't want to do this, their 20-of-all versions don't bring anything new -- both are just "bash twice" like Tame 2.

Feedback on Nepster's lists

Repeats: Strongly agree with including Fun 12 and not Tricky 23. Fun 12 is a good easy level and teaches coping with RR 99.
Strongly agree with including Fun 21 and Fun 27, even though we will probably use their repeats as well. 21 is a good level and might end up being the first level that introduces triggered traps. 27 is really good because it has lots of possible solutions, and and interesting challenge for a talisman.
Agree with including Tricky 5 and not Taxing 8.

Removals: For now, I don't agree with removing levels just because they "don't bring anything new", if they are fun to play, which is of course subjective. Most on Nepster's list I would rather keep if possible, but we should see what the numbers look like after removing any levels we do agree on.
Agree on removing Taxing 29, which is not interesting. This is another where we could re-include its easy version to fill out the easy set, depending on numbers.
Agree on not including any WAFD.
Agree on removing Crazy 17, Wicked 18 and 19, Havoc 6 and 11, Hail 1 and 12, Present 22 and 25, Sunsoft 27. I don't really want to give reasons for every level at the moment, so I'll just say that I agree with Nepster's reasons.

Strong disagreement on Sunsoft 9, which is a really good puzzle that stumped me for a long time. I'd also like to keep Present 30, but only if we can de-backroute it.

Additions: Disagree with Pea Soup, which is tedious and virtually the same as Stepping Stones.
Disagree with Crazy 13, which has a ton of unintended solutions.
I think we should include a selection of the PSP levels, and I think this will help with filling out the easy set, so we shouldn't include more Holiday levels just because they are easy.
Disagree with Blizzard 1, which is long and tedious. True that Mary Poppins' Land is mostly building, but it's also shorter.
Disagree with Present 4, which has too many hidden traps. Present 3 or 5 would be a better additional easy level.

[Proxima]

Also, I note that a couple on Nepster's "remove" list were originally not included, and prematurely re-included because just one person had suggested doing so. For now, we should still regard the list on Page 3 of this topic as the main list, and keep track of how many people are for or against each removal from or addition to that list.

[Nepster]

For now, I don't agree with removing levels just because they "don't bring anything new", if they are fun to play, which is of course subjective.

If enough people find these levels to be fun to play, then I am not against keeping them. However I did not find them memorable, which is a strong indicator for me, that these levels are not a good fit for a "best of" level pack.

Disagree with Pea Soup, which is tedious and virtually the same as Stepping Stones.

Don't know about the list on page 3, but in namida's latest list I haven't seen Stepping Stones. I totally agree that at most one of "Pea Soup" and "Stepping Stones" should be included.

Disagree with Present 4, which has too many hidden traps. Present 3 or 5 would be a better additional easy level.

Oops, I totally forgot about the hidden traps in Present 4. So I change my opinion to "only add this level, if the hidden traps get made visible or if they are completely removed". I still think that the terrain layout is interesting.
Present 5 is already included in namida's latest list. Present 3 is too builder-heavy in my opinion.

[namida]

So, here's what I'm getting from the posts since my last list (just focusing on levels for now, not difficulty):

Minim
-----
Full list:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Fun 1 “Just Dig!”
Fun 2 “Only Floaters Can Survive This”
Fun 3 “Tailor-Made For Blockers”
Fun 4 “Now use miners and climbers”
Fun 5 “A task for bombers”
Fun 6 “You need bashers this time”
Fun 7 “Builders will help you here”
Fun 11 "Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming"
Fun 21 “You Live and Lem”
Fun 27 “Let's be careful out there”
Tricky 11 "Lemmings in the attic"
Tricky 14 (Budget Amiga) "Lemming Lament"
Tricky 18 "It's Lemmingentry Watson"
Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland"
Tricky 21 “All the 6’s...”
Tricky 21 (Mac) "Going Their Separate Ways"
Tricky 22 "Turn around young lemmings!"
Tricky 23 "From The Boundary Line"
Tricky 25 "Cascade"
Tricky 26 "I have a cunning plan"
Tricky 29 "Rainbow Island"
Tricky 30 "The Crankshaft"
Taxing 02 "Watch out, there's traps about"
Taxing 06 "Compression Method 1"
Taxing 08 "The Art Gallery"
Taxing 09 "Perserverance"
Taxing 10 "Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy"
Taxing 13 "Upsidedown World"
Taxing 21 "Feel the heat!"
Taxing 22 "Come on over to my place"
Taxing 26 "Triple Trouble"
Taxing 27 "Call in the bomb squad"
Taxing 28 "POOR WEE CREATURES!"
Mayhem 03 "It's hero time!"
Mayhem 05 "Down, along, up. In that order"
Mayhem 07 "Poles Apart"
Mayhem 08 "Last one out is a rotten egg!"
Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Mayhem 16 "Just a Minute..."
Mayhem 18 "And then there were four...."
Mayhem 20 "No added colours or Lemmings"
Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please"
Mayhem 22 “A BeastII Of A Level”
Mayhem 27 "Just a Minute... (Part Two)"
Mayhem 28 "Mind the step....."
Mayhem 29 "Save Me"
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings"
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings"
Tame 08 "Dangerzone"
Tame 09 "And Now This..."
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block"
Tame 11 "With Compliments"
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming"
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help"
Tame 20 "Custom Built For Lemmings"
Crazy 01 "Quote That's A Good Level"
Crazy 06 "The Stack"
Crazy 07 "And Now the end is near"
Crazy 08 "KEEP ON TRUCKING"
Crazy 10 "ROCKY VI"
Crazy 14 "Time Waits for No Lemming"
Crazy 15 “Worra Load Of Old Blocks”
Crazy 16 “Across The Gap”
Crazy 19 “Don’t Panic”
Wild 01 “Pop Yor Top”
Wild 04 “Meeting Adjourned”
Wild 06 "Just A Quicky"
Wild 07 "You Take The High Road"
Wild 08 “It’s A Tight Fit”
Wild 10 "Higgledy Piggledy"
Wild 11 "Mutiny on the Bounty"
Wild 13 "Onward and Upward"
Wild 15 "The Silence of the Lemmings"
Wild 20 “Got Anything... Lemmingy?”
Wicked 01 "LeMing ToMato KetchUp fAcility"
Wicked 03 "This Corrosion"
Wicked 05 "Chill Out!"
Wicked 06 "PoP TIL YoU DrOp"
Wicked 07 "Last Lemming to Lemming Central"
Wicked 08 "A Towering Problem"
Wicked 11 "ROCKY ROAD"
Wicked 16 "Five Alive"
Wicked 17 "Down The Tube"
Wicked 18 “Lots More Where They Came From”
Wicked 19 “Up, Down or Round And Round”
Wicked 20 "The Lemming Funhouse"
Havoc 04 "The Race Against Cliches"
Havoc 05 "There's Madness in the Method"
Havoc 06 “Now Get Out Of That!”
Havoc 07 "Creature Discomforts"
Havoc 08 "Lemming About Town"
Havoc 09 "AAAAAARRRRRRGGGGGGHHHHHH!!!!!"
Havoc 10 "Flow Control"
Havoc 12 "It's All A Matter Of Timing"
Havoc 14 "Synchronised Lemming"
Havoc 16 "Scaling the Heights"
Havoc 18 "Lemmings in a Situation"
Havoc 19 "Looks A Bit Nippy Out There"
Genesis 04 "Catch more floaters."
Genesis 17 "Don't leave any Lemmings"
Genesis 21 "The bridge is breaking down."
Genesis 24 "Jump down!"
Genesis 30 "Fall and no life."
Genesis 33 "Watch your fingertip!"
Genesis 35 "Let's get together."
Genesis 36 "Over the wall"
Genesis 37 "Twins"
Genesis 46 "No hurry, Relax."
Genesis 47 "Lemmings' Ark"
Present 05 "Darkness of the royal family"
Present 06 "No time for a detour"
Present 15 "Evil whisper"
Present 17 "Electric circuit"
Present 19 "Acrophobia"
Present 22 "None title"
Present 24 "Everyone's a hard nut."
Present 26 "Pitfall"
Present 28 "Which one are you trying to get?"
Present 29 "Private room available"
Sunsoft 03 "Anxiety"
Sunsoft 09 "Evacuating a coal mine"
Sunsoft 12 "Water processing plant"
Sunsoft 13 "Doomsday"
Sunsoft 18 “Sunsoft Special”
Sunsoft 22 "Watch right or left (Part two)"
Sunsoft 23 "Move on in two separate groups."
Sunsoft 24 "Out, away from the tune"
Sunsoft 26 "Just a minute (Part Three)"
Sunsoft 27 "Two heads are better..."
Sunsoft 28 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Sunsoft 29 "I am A.T."
Sunsoft 30 "Fall and no life (Part Two)"
Other 11 "Vacation in Gemland"
H93 Flurry 09 "A Block from Home"
H93 Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"
H93 Blitz 15 "The Needs of the Many..."
H94 Frost 09 "Quest for Kieran"
H94 Frost 10 "Four Play"
H94 Frost 13 "2 Minutes before midnight"
H94 Frost 15 "Plethora of Presents"
H94 Hail 01 "Go Thataway!"
H94 Hail 06 "Surprise Package?"
H94 Hail 10 "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground"
H94 Hail 11 "Emmings! (No L)"
H94 Hail 15 "Steel Block Party"
Covox Mayhem 02 "JackLemmings"
Prima Taxing 3 "Oh No! Squish."
Prima Mayhem 1 "Dolly Dimple?"
Prima Mayhem 3 "Old MacDonald Had a Farm..."
X92 4 "The North Poles"

Nepster
-------
ADD
    Fun 12 (Patience): Easy level, which teaches high RR.
    Fun 21 (You live and Lem): Again an easy level, which is much more interesting than the Tame levels.
    Fun 27 (Let's be careful out there): Same here.
    Tricky 5 (Careless clicking costs lives): Not as good as the previous two, but still superior to the Tames.
      Mayhem 14 (Pea Soup):
    Crazy 13 (It's a trade off): Nice relatively simple idea.
    Wild 2 (Lemming Hotel): Lots of skills and many different easy obstacles. Good level to transition from introduction levels to more advanced stuff.
    Wild 12 (SNOW JOKE): Lots of different easy obstacles again.
    H93 Flurry 11 (At Home in a Cave): If you another candidate to replace the Tame levels with...
    H93 Flurry 12 (Presents of Mind): Another simple level, that is better than the Tames.
    H94 Blizzard 1 (Oogilemming!): Not the best level ever, but certainly better than Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land).
    Genesis 23 (No choice but to follow them): Nice level of medium difficulty.
    Genesis 39 (Climb and Fall, Fall and Climb): Good level idea, that doesn't really appear in any other level.
    Present 4 (Lemmings standing on the earth): Lots of skills, not too long and not trivial either. (Only if traps made visible or removed)
    Sega 5 (SEGA Five): One of the best levels to replace the tame stuff.
    PSP 14 (Tunnel Vision): Very smart level idea.
    PSP 18 (The run around): The little sister of Lemming Caper.
    PSP 24 (With a little help from my Lem): Another very good level with only two lemmings.
    PSP 26 (Back of the net): Very unique level idea.
    PSP 35 (No justice for the hero): Multiple solutions, none of the straight-forward.
REMOVE
    Fun 22 (Beast of a level): Even if it is a VGASpec, this level is boring to play.
    Tricky 11 (Lemmings in the attic): Builder-heavy and uninteresting.
    Tricky 23 (From The Boundary Line): "Cascade" is superior in every aspect, so this level doesn't give anything new. Note that the easy version Fun 12 is in the list to be added.
    Tricky 28 (Lost something?): Totally uninteresting with no replay-value at all!
    Taxing 3 (Heaven can wait (we hope!!!!)): Builder-heavy. Caging the lemmings without blockers can be learned in other levels as well.
    Taxing 8 (The Art Gallery): Worse than first version of this level, Tricky 5, which I noted to be included instead. Stright-forward solution to an easy level. So if should be a proper easy level with more skills.
    Taxing 16 (Mary Poppins' land): Way too much building. Perhaps replace with H93 Blizzard 1.
    Taxing 21 (Feel the heat!): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
    Taxing 27 (Call in the bomb squad): Genesis 17 (which is included as well) has the same idea and is not only constant repetition of "block-bomb-build".
    Taxing 29 (How do I dig up the way?): Does this add anything new? I don't see anything.
    Mayhem 1 (Steel Works): WTF??? Builder-heavy, a non-obvious spatting fall at the beginning and the very real possibility to be one or two builders short at the end.
    Mayhem 9 (Curse of the Pharaohs): There are much better replacements out there, see suggestions for inclusions.
    Mayhem 11 (We all fall down): NeoLemmix has rendered this level totally trivial and uninteresting.
    Mayhem 16 (Just a Minute...): Part 2 suffices. The first level does not add any additional value.
    Mayhem 30 (Rendezvous at the Mountain): Boooring!
    Tame 9-14: All of them totally uninteresting. The remaining two tame levels are more than enough. See my suggestions for other easy levels below.
    Crazy 17 (DIGGING FOR VICTORY): Apart from a terribly tight time limit, this is very straight-forward with obvious placement of skills and not much replay value.
    Wild 3 (Lemming Rhythms): Does this add anything new?
    Wild 5 (Lemming Head): Does this add anything new?
    Wild 7 (You Take the High Road): In principal an acceptable level. However the great amount of scrolling required kills all the fun.
    Wicked 2 (Introducing SUPERLEMMING): As gimmicks get removed, this becomes an extremely boring level.
    Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!): As one can simply ignore two hatches, this essentially is a repeat of Wild 1. So this adds nothing to the level pack.
    Wicked 18 (LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom): The straight-forward bottom path is just terribly annoying. Either modify the level to remove this path or remove the level altogether.
    Wicked 19 (Up, Down or Round and Round): Pixel-precise placement of builders AND a hidden trap
    Havoc 6 (Now get out of that!): Wicked 5 (Chill out!) is far superior.
    Havoc 11 (Welcome to the party, pal!): Tedious to the extreme!
    Havoc 16 (Scaling the Heights): Not a bad level per se, only very fiddly. There are much better stuff to choose from.
    H94 Hail 1 (Go Thataway!): Crazy 7 is just superior.
    H94 Hail 6 (Surprise Package?): On No, more nuke abuse!
    H94 Hail 12 (Merry Christmaze): Just build at the top... So why have this level? The idea might be nice, but no like this!
    Present 22 (None title): The first version of this level is excellent, but this one? Simply uninteresting compared to that.
    Present 25 (Underground city): Not a really bad level, just a very mediocre level. The first solution that comes to the mind is not really nice and clean.
    Present 29 (Private Rooms Available): Pixel-precise nonsense.
    Present 30 (Final impediment): Does this add anything new?
    Sunsoft 9 (Evacuating a Coal Mine): Does this add anything new?
    Sunsoft 18 (Sunsoft Special): Far uglier than all other VGASpecs and most normal levels as well. Furthermore totally boring and absolutely trivial.
    Sunsoft 27 (Two heads are better): I don't see any value in this level any more, now that we have untimed bomber.


Proxima
-------
ADD
  Fun 12: "Patience" Agreement with Nepster
  Fun 21: "You Live And Lem" Agreement with Minim and Nepster. Notes that both versions should be kept.
   Fun 27: "Let's be careful out there" Agreement with Nepster. Notes that both versions should be kept.
   Tricky 5: "Careless Clicking Costs Lives" Agreement with Nepster
  Tame 5: "Snuggle Up To A Lemming" Introduces steel
  Present 19: "Acrophobia". Agreement with Minim
REMOVE
  Tricky 23: "From The Boundary Line" Agreement with Nepster
   Taxing 8: "The Art Gallery" Agreement with Nepster
   Taxing 29: "How Do I Dig Up The Way?" Agreement with Nepster
   Mayhem 11: "We All Fall Down" Agreement with Nepster
        < Most of Tame, apart from 1, 4, 5 >
   Crazy 17: "DIGGING FOR VICTORY" Agreement with Nepster
   Wicked 18: "LoTs moRe wHeRe TheY caMe fRom" Agreement with Nepster
   Wicked 19: "Up, Down or Round and Round" Agreement with Nepster
   Havoc 6: "Now get out of that!" Agreement with Nepster
   Havoc 11: "Welcome to the party, pal!" Agreement with Nepster
   Hail 1: "Go Thataway!" Agreement with Nepster
   Hail 12: "Merry Christmaze" Agreement with Nepster
   Present 22: "None title" Agreement with Nepster
   Present 25: "Underground city" Agreement with Nepster
   Sunsoft 27: "Two heads are better" Agreement with Nepster[/tt]

Have I missed anything, or are there any comments on any of the suggestions here?

[Dullstar]

Assuming we're still dividing levels into ranks, I don't think we have enough easy levels to fill a rank; however, I'd have to go through the games to see if there are any specifically that should be added, since a decent number of them (e.g. most of Tame) would just end up being padding.

In regards to the current list of Tame levels:
Tame 01 "Down and Out Lemmings" - No opinion.  It's a very easy level, but it's also the first one in ONML.  If we use it, it should probably be directly following the tutorial levels, as the first level to give you options on what skills to choose.
Tame 04 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings" - This is probably the best level in the Tame set, so we should keep this one.  It's similar to the blocker tutorial level, but it gives options to save 100% if you want.
Tame 08 "Dangerzone" - I think this one could be a good level with some minor modifications.  If we increased the release rate enough so that lemmings would definitely turn around it would make a good level to teach crowd control.
Tame 09 "And Now This..." - Probably redundant with a combination of Down and Out Lemmings (Tame 1) and Builders Will Help You Here (Fun 7).  It's basically an easier version of Fun 7 that also gives you the option of bashing through the last obstacle instead of building over it.
Tame 10 "New Lemmings On The Block" - It's a bit unnecessarily large, but that's not hard to fix.  It could be a good level to introduce using digging tools to avoid splatting, but that would probably require removing the first obstacle (as bashers going through have a pretty good chance of just continuing to bash, which eliminates having to worry about that drop at all).
Tame 11 "With Compliments" - I feel like this is redundant with Tame 1.
Tame 12 "Citizen Lemming" - This could be an alternative to You Need Bashers This Time, but I don't feel like it's good for much else.
Tame 14 "Get A Little Extra Help" - I feel like it could be a good early crowd control level with a higher release rate.

For Just A Minute:  The levels are fairly similar, but I'd suggest keeping Part 1 over Part 2, as they are similar difficulty conceptually, but Part 2 is just a little more annoying to execute.  Being able to easily pause buffer in NeoLemmix makes it more bearable, but I think it would be better to use the one that's more easily completed without it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Unless I just did something really weird that happened to work last time I played Part 2, which is entirely possible

As for VGASpecs, I'd suggest going all-or-nothing on them; specifically, I'd suggest removing all of them. 
They were originally one per rank and I feel like having, like, one or two remaining would feel out of place. 
Besides, they all have trivial solutions and the only thing that makes the later ones harder than the earlier ones is that there's more junk terrain for builders to get stuck on in AWESOME, and, in the context of NeoLemmix the fact that some terrain that LOOKS solid in Beast II isn't (under the original game's mechanics, you can also add having to quickly assign a builder to a basher; pause buffering is easier in NeoLemmix so I don't think this applies anymore). 
MENACING and Beast 1 are about equally difficult, and are both boring levels (although Beast 1 does at least look pretty, so there's that).

Don't know if any ports have any of their own VGASpec-type levels, so I can't comment about any in ports.

[namida]

Don't know if any ports have any of their own VGASpec-type levels, so I can't comment about any in ports.

The Genesis version has one extra VGASPEC ("Sunsoft Special"). The four that are also found in the standard versions are altered in Genesis, to be much shorter. See:

A Beast Of A Level
Menacing!
What an AWESOME level!
A BeastII Of A Level
Sunsoft Special

I had earlier proposed that if we are going to use VGASPEC levels, we should use the Genesis versions as they're far less tedious. No decision was ever made (nor even much discussion) of whether to do so or not, beyond using Sunsoft Special as the 5th VGASPEC level if we needed one.

I myself originally supported not including VGASPECs; it seemed like people wanted them, so I went with a one-per-rank structure.

[ccexplore]

I had earlier proposed that if we are going to use VGASPEC levels, we should use the Genesis versions as they're far less tedious.

I think I'd use the Genesis versions of Beast1 and Menacing, but DOS versions for Awesome and Beast2.  Basically, since none of them are particularly interesting in the puzzle department, I think I would err more on the side of having the more complete visuals.  Beast1 is fine since the DOS version basically just have more of the same boring trees, and Genesis Menacing pretty much keeps everything visually interesting in DOS and only reduces lengths of the boring walking parts (though I'd like add back in that floating island over the gap that was removed in Genesis).  Whereas Awesome in Genesis cut off the head of the second dragon, and Beast2 cut out that heart-shaped terrain island in the middle.

For reference, here are screenshots taken from TLE for the DOS/Amiga versions of the special levels:

A Beast Of A Level
Menacing!
What an AWESOME level!
A BeastII Of A Level

[Dullstar]

In the case that we do keep the VGASpecs, would it be possible to make the collision on Beast II's terrain better?  I've always thought that object in the middle looks like it should be completely solid, but it's not.

I'd also suggest making the stars in AWESOME background objects.

[namida]

Former is possible, latter is (at this stage) not. Whether it's an acceptable modification or not would need further discussion.

[Dullstar]

I just noticed in addition to the Tame levels I commented on Tame 05 "Snuggle up to a lemming" was also proposed.  I agree with adding this one for the reason that it introduces steel.  Might be a good idea to remove some of the unused space to make it more NeoLemmixy though.

[Proxima]

I think I'd use the Genesis versions of Beast1 and Menacing, but DOS versions for Awesome and Beast2.

I strongly agree with this suggestion.

[bsmith]

Big thanks to namida for collecting all those level opinions in one post.  I used that information along with some of the attached lists earlier in the thread to create a set of 127 levels. These levels seem to have strong overall support.  I divided them into 5 ranks according to where myself and others had already placed them, with a few adjustments to make the per rank totals roughly equal (24-26 per rank).

I am hoping that this list is relatively accurate of the community as a whole and can be used to start fine-tuning level selection and placement.

[Dullstar]

I think "Quote: That's a good level" might be better off as an early rank 2, assuming Rank 1 should have a similar difficulty to the Fun levels of the original game.  Upsidedown World might be better off in Rank 3 rather than Rank 4, assuming the climbability of the Terrain gets fixed. In addition, there are probably better Tame levels than "Custom Built for Lemmings."
Across the Gap is kinda hard to execute, so I think it might be better in Rank 3 or 4 rather than 2.

I don't recognize most of the levels from ports, so I don't have an opinion on those.  I haven't ever finished ONML, either.  I should probably do that so I can comment on the later levels.

---

EDIT TO AVOID DOUBLE POST:

So I've been playing through ONML recently, and I'd just like to make a note about its level design in general.
Compared to the first game, it seems to focus a lot more on execution than on puzzle solving, which means several levels will be trivialized by NeoLemmix mechanics (haven't checked with our list of candidate levels to see if any of them specifically will be, just talking in general). Many (probably at least half) of them commit the level design sin of the "Time limit that doesn't really restrict the solution set in any way, but makes it so you inevitably have to go back and release the lemmings earlier because you waited too long to do it." I assume (greatly hope) we'll be removing the time limits from these levels, but that may have an effect on how easy/difficult different levels are, since NeoLemmix is designed in such a way that it's a lot more about the puzzle solving and a lot less about perfect execution.

So, how does this little rant about ONML level design relate to this?
My main point is that we should probably "NeoLemmixize" all of the levels we plan on including before attempting to put them into difficulty ranks.
I'd also suggest whittling down the list to slightly more than however many levels we decide to include, and make the decisions on further cuts based on the edited, rather than the original, versions of the levels.

[bsmith]

Actually I expect to add more levels to this set of 127.  This list was complied from just 4 people's opinions.  If you think there are levels that should be added, just say so.

The rankings can change and most likely will.  The way I placed them is just a rough sort.

Things like closing backroutes and removing unnecessary time limits will come after we have a final list.  Our main focus right now is choosing which levels to include.

[namida]

So, how does this little rant about ONML level design relate to this?
My main point is that we should probably "NeoLemmixize" all of the levels we plan on including before attempting to put them into difficulty ranks.

For around 95% of levels (I'd estimate), the only change that will be made is maybe removing the time limit. Obviously, for levels where the time limit is one of the main sources of difficulty (eg. Taxing 3, Mayhem 16), is used to avoid backroutes (eg. Mayhem 3), or possibly exists for a thematic reason (eg. Tricky 21), it wouldn't be removed.

It remains to be discussed exactly how aggressive we'd be with backroute fixes, but even the suggestion of fixing Mayhem 13 wasn't too well-received. So likely, it would only be the extreme cases like "Let's Go Camping" that will get fixes in the end.

[namida]

To the people who previously indicated they'd like to give further input: Are you still wanting to do so?

If you're wanting to but haven't had the time yet, that's fine, there's no rush for this project. I'd like to have it ready by the time the next stable NeoLemmix (major) update comes out so that it can be shipped with it, but as you're all well aware, that's probably quite some time away still. However, if you're no longer interested in giving the input at all, perhaps it's time to start trying to compile the existing input into a finalized level list, and begin ordering the levels.

[bsmith]

I have 23 more levels I think should be included (in addition to the cross-compiled list of 127):
Tricky   11   Lemmings in the attic
Taxing   15   What an AWESOME level
Taxing   18   Tribute to M.C.Escher
Tame   1   Down And Out Lemmings
Tame   5   Snuggle up to a Lemming
Tame   9   And now this...
Crazy   2   Dolly Dimple
Wild   12   SNOW JOKE
Wild   16   Take care, Sweetie
Mayhem   16   Just a Minute...
Wicked   10   Temple of Love
Havoc   16   Scaling the Heights
Hail   4   Lemmintaschen?
Genesis   23   No choice but to follow them
Present   4   Lemmings standing on the earth
Present   9   Fix the road, quick!
Sunsoft   14   No world without you
Sunsoft   18   SUNSOFT Special
Sunsoft   19   Let's go camping
PSP   14   Tunnel vision
PSP   18   The run around
Other   3   Go for it!
Other   8   It's not over 'til it's over

I don't have any strong feelings about any other levels.

[bsmith]

To try to get this moving again, I have taken the time to compile the list of 127 I posted earlier, plus the 23 levels I think should be added, minus the special graphic levels, to get a resultant list of 146 levels.

The sort into five ranks is rough at best.  The only levels I see staying put are the first thirteen levels in the first rank (Fun 1-7 and 6 of the Tame levels).

I would like everyone's input as to how to sort these into five ranks.  Then we can nominate other levels to fill in shorter ranks.

[namida]

bsmith - I'll look in more detail later, but is this list taking into account other people's suggestions as well? If so, let's use that list as a "starting" point for the future discussions on this.

[bsmith]

Yes, other people's suggestions are reflected.  The list of 127 levels I posted earlier in the thread was a compilation I made which tracked where multiple people other than myself wanted certain levels included.  Each of those levels has at least two backers.  The 23 I added were also supported by one other person.

I definitely do not expect this list to be final, but I do want this project to move forward and thought that an alpha version would get some ideas flowing.

[namida]

Awesome.

So, any suggestions for changes from bsmith's list? (Especially in regards to additions / removals) Or are we probably ready to move onto ordering now?

[Nepster]

Yes, other people's suggestions are reflected.  The list of 127 levels I posted earlier in the thread was a compilation I made which tracked where multiple people other than myself wanted certain levels included.  Each of those levels has at least two backers. [...]

How did you handle levels where at least two people wanted to remove them? I thought at least Proxima and myself wanted at most three instead of the current six tame levels.
And how did you handle levels where people posted contradicting opinions, e.g. when two wanted to include a level and one was against? (not sure whether this actually happened)

[bsmith]

I went on a level-by-level basis, looking at specifically named levels.  I did not include blanket claims like 'only 3 tame levels'.  Just from looking at the levels in the current set I think we may need to have more than three Tame levels just to keep the difficulty in the first rank easy, especially if more levels are added and we approach 35-40 levels per rank.  Of course if we do keep the pack to roughly the current size then I can see having only three or four tame levels.

If someone did not want a level, then that canceled out one vote from people who did want it in.  So the levels I included had a net +2 or higher votes.  There are maybe three or four levels that had 3-1=2 net votes. I don't think there were any levels in this set that two people wanted to exclude, but if there is then at least four other people said yes to it.

In any case this is not final.  I fully expect additions and subtractions to occur.  The 146 level set is my best guess as to where we stand right now in terms of what to include.

Honestly, right now I want to see how this current set of 146 levels is distributed in difficulty.  I think we have a larger number of medium difficulty levels than easy or hard levels right now.  If this current set of levels get a good sort, then we will have a better idea of which kind of levels to add or remove

[Wafflem]

Before we go any further, should we wait until Ron_Stard has completed his ZX Spectrum / NES Remakes?

[namida]

Before we go any further, should we wait until Ron_Stard has completed his ZX Spectrum / NES Remakes?

Are there any levels from it you specifically have in mind to suggest?

[Wafflem]

Not yet. I haven't played them yet, but I'm just suggesting that these levels should also be taken into consideration.

I'll look at them when I have the time and suggest which ones should be included.

Another thing to note is that a majority of these are Crystal levels, something which has noticeably been very lacking in the Original games (and only one level of Sunsoft uses it).

[namida]

Graphic set balance should be an afterthought at most. Perhaps to the extent of slightly rearranging a few levels to avoid repeating the same set too many times in a row, or even to that of, if we have two otherwise-roughly-equal levels to consider, we use "This level uses a less common graphic set" as a tiebreaker. It shouldn't be a strong consideration.

[Flopsy]

I'd like to weigh in on the NES levels, there's only 3 that I would call unique. Arctic Lemming, Spot of Bother/Is That Lemming Licensed and Hello John Got A New Lemming.
I attempted to recreate those levels over in the ZX spectrum/nes topic and posted screenshots of them. They are almost true to the originals except I made some modifications to account for the less steep builders since builders are 45 degrees in NES/spectrum.

I'd say the levels are average, Hello John Got A New Lemming has a good solution but is let down by Floating every lemming out of the trapdoor.

Arctic Lemming is like a Fun level because you get X of everything pretty much, not that exciting.
Spot of Bother and its repeat have another set of good solutions, takes a bit of thinking to solve them. I feel there is more potential for these levels because the skillsets are awful. The repeat is very builder heavy!
All 3 are crystal graphic set and they have some odd shaped crystal terrain.

I'm only talking about the NES levels. Some of the NES levels I haven't mentioned are also in the ZX Spectrum version.
You can download the spectrum levels in the topic and try them for yourself 😊

[Proxima]

As the current number is 146, I think we should aim for 150, probably by adding a few more PSP levels, L2 remakes and maybe ZXS/NES levels (I haven't looked at these yet so I don't know what they are like), and then removing a few to get back down to the round number.

I'm happy with using bsmith's current list as a starting point, since it takes into account the feedback so far. So, in order to avoid anyone having to look again through all 10 pages of the thread, I'll list again the ones on this list that I have reservations about including. This isn't the same as "voting against", since we are currently short of the target, so we should probably decide on additions first, then an appropriate number of removals.

Present 4 -- this may have been included by error, since Nepster originally voted in favour, then withdrew his vote when I pointed out the level contains many hidden traps.
Taxing 18 - we threw out the bomber timing levels. Why add this one back?
Tame 8, 9, 20 -- three Tames is enough, and these three don't contribute anything new.
Frost 13 -- while not completely trivial, not very interesting either.
Covox 8 -- more annoying than fun.
Wild 8 -- uninteresting.
Sunsoft 26 -- requires miner turning on OWW, which will be removed in future versions of NL. Weird to have Part Three before Parts One and Two, but also weird to put it after, since it is the easiest.
Wild 10 -- uninteresting. I remember Insane Steve called this "the worst level in ONML".
Sunsoft 28 -- nothing special. Could be kept or removed depending on number of levels.
Havoc 19 -- hidden traps, probably unfixable backroutes.

Other than that, this looks like a really solid shortlist! I'll list my suggested additions soon; this will take a bit longer as there are more levels to look through

[bsmith]

As far as unfavorable levels, I don't have as long of a list.  Other than some reassessment of which tame levels to include the only level I don't think is that good is Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming please".  The second half is a nice puzzle but the first half is having to float every single lemming out - a tedious chore to do before the actual puzzle comes into play.

I think there should be four tame levels - one of each ONML graphic set.  L4 for the bubble set - it has a good emphasis on vertical movement.  L5 for the brick set - it introduces steel.  L7 for the snow set - the terrain trap on the left is a gentle way to get new players used to the idea of surveying the entire level.  L14 for the rock set - in my opinion it is the least trivial of the five rock levels.

One more thought - add Frost 5 after the tame levels.  A very easy level to introduce the xmas graphic set and multiple entrances.

[Proxima]

If we're going to NeoLemmix-ify the levels, we could just make it a floater-spawning trapdoor

Though I remember that some other version (SMS?) had a level with the same terrain and a better puzzle. We could use that instead.

[Proxima]

One more thought - add Frost 5 after the tame levels.  A very easy level to introduce the xmas graphic set and multiple entrances.

Frost 3 would be better for that. Easy, but not completely trivial. Also, if we have this then I feel we don't need a separate level to "introduce" the almost identical Snow set.

[Minim]

Just so you know (also forgot to mention! ) my blue laptop (where I organised my list of levels from) is now working after 3 weeks of problems. So I can now compare bsmith's list of levels with mine.

So, any suggestions for changes from bsmith's list? (Especially in regards to additions / removals) Or are we probably ready to move onto ordering now?

Well, if we are considering including PSP levels (Which so far 4 people said they want to) then we could consider adding 9 (Pillar talking), 10 (Just 17), 20 (Lemming toast), 24 (With a little help from my Lem), 26 (Back of the net) and 35 (No justice for the hero). These levels were suggested earlier in the thread by Proxima and Nepster.

If namida decides that we should ban PSP levels (Which would bring bsmith's total down to 144) then we could add bsmith's tame level ideas (Tame 4 and 5 have been included already) and Proxima's suggestion of Frost 3. I might consider adding the following levels to bring the total to 150, although these might need more discussion.
* Havoc 3
* Havoc 17
* Mayhem 12

[namida]

Personally, I wasn't in favor of including PSP, NES, etc; but since it seems like enough people are, let's at least consider them.

[bsmith]

namida, can you make a new poll for the thread asking "Should we consider remakes of levels from PSP, NES, etc?"  with 'Yes'/'No'/'Don't Care' as voting options?

[Proxima]

How about first deciding what is or might be included in the "etc" and maybe expanding the options, just in case anyone wants to vote for inclusion of some categories but not others?

Off the top of my head, the contended categories are:

PSP
NES/GameBoy
L2 Classic

...any others?

[namida]

Sega Master System? Although as mentioned earlier, the only levels I can see as potentially being worthwhile are Taxing 21 / Mayhem 18 (of which only one could be included if we prefer avoiding repeats) and Mayhem 17 (which would have to replace Tricky 12 / Mayhem 21 for similar reasons).

[Ron_Stard]

namida, can you make a new poll for the thread asking "Should we consider remakes of levels from PSP, NES, etc?"  with 'Yes'/'No'/'Don't Care' as voting options?

How about first deciding what is or might be included in the "etc" and maybe expanding the options, just in case anyone wants to vote for inclusion of some categories but not others?

Off the top of my head, the contended categories are:

PSP
NES/GameBoy
L2 Classic

...any others?

Personally, I wasn't in favor of including PSP, NES, etc; but since it seems like enough people are, let's at least consider them.

As the user behind the recreation of ZX Spectrum and NES levels, I think I'm an authorized voice to opine on this: there are only 4 levels interesting enough to be considered for this project, between the two ports of the game. They are the following:

-Speed Trap (Mayhem 3 from ZX Spectrum Lemmings)
-A Spot Of Bother (Taxing 6 from NES Lemmings)
-Is That Lemming Licensed? (Mayhem 22 from NES Lemmings)
-Hello John Got A New Lemming (Mayhem 16 from NES Lemmings)

Minim and Flopsy also made versions of these ones. The rest of the levels I've adapted are way too easy, and even too much plain for a novice player. These four levels I've mentioned are intriguing, but compared with others already selected on the .ODS list, they are not a big deal. I think there is no point in creating a poll for these things, unless you want to select at least one significative level from each official port of the game.

[bsmith]

After the recent responses, I don't think we will need a poll after all.

After another look at Proxima's thoughts on what to remove I agree with these: remove Tame 1, 8, 9, 20, Present 4 and Sunsoft 26.  After these removals, add Tame 14.  Then move Flurry 9 "A Block From Home" (already in the list) to be immediately after the three Tame levels (4, 5, 14).

That reduces the list to 141 levels.  From the PSP levels Minim suggested I like 9, 20, 24, and 35.  I also like his suggestions to add Havoc 3 and Mayhem 12.

I do like the four ZX/NES levels Ron has ported and recommended, but I think only one of 'A Spot of Bother' or 'Is That Lemming Licensed' should be added.  Both of 'Speed Trap' and 'Hello John Got a New Lemming' are worthy of including. 

Making all these changes to the list would bring the level count to exactly 150.

[Dullstar]

I haven't finished playing the nxp yet, but here are my thoughts so far:

 - Too many tame levels!
 - Quote: "That's a Good Level" has an egregiously easy to pull off backroute in NeoLemmix due to the untimed bombers.
 - There's no point in including both "Dolly Dimple" and "Dolly Dimple?" since they're almost the same.
 - I don't like "Two minutes before midnight" at all. I spent 10 seconds figuring out the solution and 5 minutes trying to position the builders such that the exit wouldn't get blocked off.
 - Lemmings in the Attic is very builder heavy. I know there's a repeat level of it later in the original game, but I don't remember off the top of my head if it's any good or not. It might be worth considering over this version, however.
 - Worra Load of Old Blocks contains hidden traps, which would need to be made visible.
 - While I'm trying not to comment too much on order right now, Plethora of Presents is egregiously difficult for its current position and should be moved to a later rating.

[Proxima]

After the recent responses, I don't think we will need a poll after all.

This is still a team project. Sure, that's one way to reach 150 and it's fairly good, but we still need to make the decisions together. I haven't even had a chance to look at the ZX/NES levels yet. And I've suggested including two of the L2 Classic levels.

@namida: Indeed, on the previous page I suggested we include SMS Mayhem 17 rather than Mayhem 21.

[namida]

Another question - if we do include a version of Sega Four, should it be remade in a normal graphic set (since otherwise it would be the only level in the Sega set)?

[Minim]

I do like the four ZX/NES levels Ron has ported and recommended, but I think only one of 'A Spot of Bother' or 'Is That Lemming Licensed' should be added.  Both of 'Speed Trap' and 'Hello John Got a New Lemming' are worthy of including. 

I also had a go as testing all four of the levels mentioned (and solved them all ). 'A Spot of Bother' is better than 'Is That Lemming Licensed' because you can create nicer solutions with the 8-per skill set, for example clearing the three OWWs. 18 builders in the latter level is highly unusual, considering that I only needed four of them. This isn't helped by the fact the level looks like it needs climbers, so that's my opinion. I also agree that the other two should be included if namida decides to permit ZX/NES levels.

Looking at SEGA Four, it comes down to which challenge we like better: Saving 100% with more skills, or permitting the loss of a few lemmings while reducing the skillset? To be honest, I prefer the latter.

Another question - if we do include a version of Sega Four, should it be remade in a normal graphic set (since otherwise it would be the only level in the Sega set)?

The SEGA graphic set seems to be compatible with DOS, so I don't think it's mandatory to remake it in one of the normal graphic sets. If we decide to keep it however, it might be useful to upload the Redux with it.

[namida]

The SEGA graphic set seems to be compatible with DOS, so I don't think it's mandatory to remake it in one of the normal graphic sets. If we decide to keep it however, it might be useful to upload the Redux with it.

The SEGA set isn't entirely compatible with DOS. There is a DOS version of it, but when played on the actual DOS game, the graphic quality will be reduced because the SEGA set uses more colors than DOS supports at once. (If you use the latest updates I made to (standard) Lemmix, the graphics will display correctly on that.)

It isn't nessecary to include a copy of the SEGA set with Lemmings Redux, because NeoLemmix itself includes a copy.

[namida]

- Lemmings in the Attic is very builder heavy. I know there's a repeat level of it later in the original game, but I don't remember off the top of my head if it's any good or not. It might be worth considering over this version, however.

The repeat relied on bomber timing for difficulty; that aside, it was mostly just a clone of the first version.

[bsmith]

It has been a while since any input has been made, so I figure it is time for an update.

A few levels have been suggested for removal from the list.  The choices that seem to have support are:
- Reducing the number of Tame levels to three: 4, 5, and 14 have been proposed as the three to use.
- Present 4 Lemmings Standing on Earth may have been included in error.
- Sunsoft 26 Just a Minute Part 3 uses a soon to be depreciated mechanic involving miners going against one-way walls.

This short list of removals reduces the list to 141 levels.

Then the following levels have been proposed to be added, with at least one other person in agreement:
- One of ZX Spot of Bother/Is That Lemming Licensed, with preference to Spot of Bother
- ZX Hello John Got a New Lemming
- ZX Speed Trap
- PSP 9 Pillar Talking
- PSP 20 Lemming Toast
- PSP 24 With a Little Help from my Lem
- PSP 35 No Justice for the Hero
- One version of Sega Four
- Havoc 3 It's the price you have to pay
- Mayhem 12 The Far Side

This would bring the total up to 151 levels.

There was discussion as to whether ported levels should be included.  The original list of 146 and these adjustments assume the answer is Yes.  If that answer is No, then 7 of the 10 levels in the addition list would be excluded, along with PSP 14 and PSP 18 already in the original list of 146.  That would then bring the total down to 142.

[namida]

- Mayhem 12 The Far Side

O_O
This one wasn't already on the list?! Now when did I let that happen? :O
To be fair, I would probably have picked up on this while actually putting the pack together, and snuck it back in (nah, kidding, but I would have probably had another go at questioning it once I noticed ). While by today's standards it might not seem so great, I remember thinking this level was incredible when I first played it - and since it's quite possible that new players, or those who haven't played in a long time, may be playing this, levels that create a first impression like that are well worth including I think.

In regards to Just A Minute Part 3 - the option is always there of adapting the level to keep the spirit of the solution while removing the need for that mechanic. Do keep in mind that, if I'm not mistaken, you can still turn a miner around by mining into a one-way-arrow, you just can't start a miner when he's already standing on one. (Do we want to keep it this way? It's still very much possible to start a basher near something that will turn him around, in fact, this is one of the very few cases recently where I've contested one of Nepster's physics decisions and refused to budge, usually I ultimately accept whatever decisions he makes even if they're not my first preference nowdays. However, whatever the outcome is for a miner, we want it to be the same for both steel and wrong one-way arrows - so this decision is basically "apply the existing rule for steel to OWWs too", rather than "apply the existing rule for OWWs to steel too" or "make an entirely new rule".)

In regards to ports - I still don't really know how I feel about it (aside from of course the near-direct ports, like Genesis - I would even say Master System is pushing the limits a bit), but the general preference seems to be towards allowing these. With this in mind, perhaps (if Minim's okay with it) we want to consider the PS3 ports too - although I will put my foot down here and say that none of the levels that use Cloners are eligible, period, as we don't want to be introducing a 9th skill here, no matter what the reason. (I'm not sure if we should perhaps also avoid those that use pickup skills here... but I'll leave that one open for discussion.)

[bsmith]

I'll agree with you regarding Just a Minute Part 3.  It does seem simple enough to either shrink the one way area or add a veneer to the top of the brick to fix the level.

I don't think that the PS3 ports will be a good fit.  Those levels make extensive use of teleporters and pickup skills - neither of which are found anywhere in the current list of levels.

[bsmith]

Update time!

This set of 153 levels takes the set of 146 from earlier and incorporates changes I summarized in a previous post.  Just a Minute (Part 3) is still in this set since it can be fixed.  Also, I added Frost 3 Cindyland to the first rank, adding that level was also discussed earlier in the thread.

The first rank starts with the seven introductory levels, then three Tame levels, then various X-of-everything levels with small values of X mostly occuring later; finally, the puzzle levels are at the end of the rank.  In general, the other ranks are in a rough sort avoiding putting levels with matching tilesets close to one another.

I have attached the nxp and a spreadsheet of the levels.

So, it seems to me that the next step is to choose which three levels to exclude and to make adjustments for placement of this compilaiton.

[Proxima]

No, we're not necessarily done with additions. I think, given the current status and the fact that we want to finalise the list of included levels so we can start work on ordering, the next step should be to make a final call for suggestions for additions, and any that are suggested should be put to a vote (whether by a forum poll or just by getting people to post). Then, decide which levels to remove to get back down to exactly 150.

At the moment, my suggestions for additions are:

* Special graphics levels, which should be kept as one per rank rather than sorted according to difficulty. There was an early consensus in favour of keeping the special graphics levels, which seems to have been disregarded in the latest lists for no apparent reason.

* Other 4 "Lane of Lament" is a really strong level that got missed somehow.

* Sunsoft 9 "Evacuating a coal mine" was included in the earlier lists. Nepster suggested removing it, but I disagreed, so there was never a consensus to remove it.

* Levels 2 and 3 of Lemmings 2 Classic. As we seem to have a majority agreement in favour of including remakes of PSP and ZX levels, there's no reason not to extend this to L2 levels, and I think these two would make the cut.

I've watched Wafflem's videos of the PS3 remakes, and I don't think we should include those. Nearly all levels use teleporters and pickup skills; the remakes look very bland compared to the majority of original levels; I haven't seen any with particularly interesting solutions.

[namida]

* Special graphics levels, which should be kept as one per rank rather than sorted according to difficulty. There was an early consensus in favour of keeping the special graphics levels, which seems to have been disregarded in the latest lists for no apparent reason.

I'm okay either way on this one. However, if we aren't including one per rank, I am very strongly in favor of not including them at all.

* Other 4 "Lane of Lament" is a really strong level that got missed somehow.

Agreed. The main thing that could hurt this level is that it relied somewhat heavily on timed bombers; which is no longer a problem in NeoLemmix.
I think you mean "Lemming Lament", though. "Lane Of Lament" is a level from one of my old Cheapo packs.

* Sunsoft 9 "Evacuating a coal mine" was included in the earlier lists. Nepster suggested removing it, but I disagreed, so there was never a consensus to remove it.

I'm in favor of including this one, but it'd be quite far down the list - if we need to leave it out to make room for better levels, that's okay.

[Minim]

* Special graphics levels, which should be kept as one per rank rather than sorted according to difficulty. There was an early consensus in favour of keeping the special graphics levels, which seems to have been disregarded in the latest lists for no apparent reason.

Out of the 150 levels that I originally included the only level that I found the most interesting out of the four special levels is the Mayhem version. The Fun version is just an elongated version of 'A Block from Home', 'Menacing' is just boring near the end with too much building to do and the 'Awesome' level's process isn't too much different to 'Menacing', but makes it more annoying by adding randomly placed stars, making the builder turn back every time he hits one.

* Other 4 "Lane of Lament" is a really strong level that got missed somehow.

* Sunsoft 9 "Evacuating a coal mine" was included in the earlier lists. Nepster suggested removing it, but I disagreed, so there was never a consensus to remove it.

I like them both too. They're both solid puzzles. That's why they were in my top 150.

* Levels 2 and 3 of Lemmings 2 Classic. As we seem to have a majority agreement in favour of including remakes of PSP and ZX levels, there's no reason not to extend this to L2 levels, and I think these two would make the cut.

I'm just wondering, where can I download these levels?

[namida]

* Levels 2 and 3 of Lemmings 2 Classic. As we seem to have a majority agreement in favour of including remakes of PSP and ZX levels, there's no reason not to extend this to L2 levels, and I think these two would make the cut.

I'm just wondering, where can I download these levels?

Anywhere you can download a copy of Lemmings 2. I don't know if anyone's remade them for NL yet (which someone would have to do in order to include them in this project).

[Wafflem]

Proxima remade the three L2 Classic levels in this post.

[Minim]

Thanks, Wafflem! Didn't see your post until today so I got my chance to play those recreated L2 levels.

Here's my verdict:

1: The blocks are a bit oversized (Although that can't be helped) but nonetheless is a great level to experiment with altogether. I just wish the exit platform could be thinner but nevermind. The level layout is what it is.
2: It's quite a journey to reach the other side before building a bridge but not a bad puzzle. It's like an easier version of ROCKY VI, another good level with a similar concept. At least I've been unsuccesful in trying to backroute it.
3: Personally I'm not a fan of this one, even though there's a lot of experimentation for the players: You could just bash the first four blocks and it would still be too easy to tackle the last three.

So with all three of them I'm hanging on the fence, leaning slightly towards keep. Comparing them to the ones I initially selected to add back in June (Havoc 3, Havoc 17 and Mayhem 12) if I had to select three levels I would definitely keep all three L2 levels. Those other levels were only in the case of emergency.

[bsmith]

Of the three remade L2 levels, the only one I think that should be included is level 2.  Minim summed it up nicely with his statement that it is like an easier version of ROCKY VI.  I think this level would fit nicely in late-tricky or taxing rank.

The first level is a decent sandbox level, but I don't think it is very inspiring.

The third level might be worth something with a different skillset.  If we do include it then I would want to see a talisman to reflect an interesting solution - something like '100% with no builders'.

[namida]

The third level might be worth something with a different skillset.  If we do include it then I would want to see a talisman to reflect an interesting solution - something like '100% with no builders'.

Changing the skillset is something I'd rather avoid, except in very limited cases:
- Removing blockers on levels that use them solely to avoid the need to time bombers (since NL bombers are instant anyway) - this could possibly be extended to skills that aren't nessecary under NL for other reasons
- If extra skills are needed to keep the usual solution possible on NeoLemmix (eg: "Out, Away From The Tune" needed this)
- As part of a backroute fix

Certianly, giving a new skillset to an existing level to keep it interesting is not a valid reason. The correct action here would be to not include that level; if it's worthwhile as an easy level, then indeed making the more-restrictive variant a talisman is a possible approach.

[bsmith]

For everyone's consideration, I have built the rest of the Lemmings 2 Classic Tribe levels and made a pack with all ten levels.  All ten levels start with 60 lemmings and have a save requirement reduced by the number of bombers available.  Level 6 has one extra builder for splat height reasons.

[Minim]

Right. I've downloaded it, and managed to solve 9 of the 10 levels. The only level I can't solve is Level 7. Basically on this level you have 8 builders, and you need 6 of them to ascend to the steel platform above. The job is made more difficult by the limited area on the left, meaning that you can't build 6 clean stairs without having to be blocked by another lemming that needs to be released. This requires perfect timing.

You also need one builder to build to the ceiling and another to build to the exit. Near the end where you dig down the sandy wall, I run out of builders when I really need one to stop the digger.

Whether I solve this level or not there's no reason why I should put this one in the redux, especially considering that's there's a lot of building to do.

The last six levels (WTF?) are ridiculously boring to execute and should be left aside. Level 4 isn't too bad because it requires lemmings to go both ways in order to solve it. I also quite like the idea of 'making a bridge but think of something to turn him round as well'. Still, it isn't as good as the first three IMO.

[bsmith]

My thoughts on the L2 Classic is similar to what Minim has already stated.  Then it looks like levels 2, 3, and 4 are candidates in the Redux.

I have been playing with the special graphic levels recently.  If we include them (which looks likely) I suggest placing one in each of the first four ranks and place the only nominated Sega level in the final rank.  Since that Sega level is the only one included then it can act as a 5th special graphic so each rank has one level with unique graphics.
I have a few Talisman ideas to go along with the special levels:
:tal-bronze:Beat Menacing with only 7 builders.
:tal-silver:Beat Beast 1 using no more than 3 of each skill.
:tal-gold:Save 100% on Beast 2 without using bashers.

Adding these levels plus Other 4 and Sunsoft 9 will take the level count to 162.  So at this point I will again ask are we done with nominating levels to include?

[bsmith]

I have compiled a new current status NXP.  This is for the new v1.47 Neolemmix engine.

This NXP has 162 levels divided into 6 ranks.  The first five ranks have 30 levels each and are intended to be the final ranks (not necessarily with the levels currently in them).  The sixth "extra" rank has the overflow from the 150 level target.  These 12 levels are 12 of the levels which someone has raised some objection to in the last few pages of the this topic.

Any thoughts on inclusions, exclusions or ordering?

Should levels using the Genesis tilesets be converted to the corresponding original tilesets?  (I expect to wait to do this after the editor gets its updated build officially released.)

What about music files?  Should we have a distinct song for each graphic set?
On a more techinical note, where can I get the four special tunes for the original special graphic levels?

[namida]

Should levels using the Genesis tilesets be converted to the corresponding original tilesets?  (I expect to wait to do this after the editor gets its updated build officially released.)

I could see this one going either way. One offers more consistency, while the other is more true to the original forms of these levels.

What about music files?  Should we have a distinct song for each graphic set?

Hmm, interesting idea. If we're (presumably) using the Orig and OhNo tracks, this means that a handful of tracks will be used more than once per rank. If we tie it to the graphic set instead, this effect could be less noticable; as well as allowing for Xmas-y music on any Holiday Lemmings levels that are included.

On a more techinical note, where can I get the four special tunes for the original special graphic levels?

I've attached a ZIP of them to this post. Can't help you with the Sunsoft one, though.

[Wafflem]

On a more techinical note, where can I get the four special tunes for the original special graphic levels?

I've attached a ZIP of them to this post. Can't help you with the Sunsoft one, though.

Here is the Sunsoft Special music. I found it in one of the archives while searching for lost levelpacks.

[Minim]

This NXP has 162 levels divided into 6 ranks.  The first five ranks have 30 levels each and are intended to be the final ranks (not necessarily with the levels currently in them).  The sixth "extra" rank has the overflow from the 150 level target.  These 12 levels are 12 of the levels which someone has raised some objection to in the last few pages of the this topic.

It's interesting that you created a sixth rank containing the extra levels. I've found out on my spreadsheet which ones I've criticised.

1. 'Tribute to M.C. Escher' I found the intended solution too builder-heavy.
11. 'Dolly Dimple' There are two levels called 'Dolly Dimple', created with different graphic sets and skillsets. The ONML version (in the redux) involves too much building to get the last lemming home, while the Prima version (in the extra rank) is a decent albeit quite an easy puzzle. I might suggest changing the requirement total of the ONML version to 79/80, provided that it doesn't create any new backroutes. Otherwise, remove it and replace it with the Prima version.

[bsmith]

If it were up to me I would have just tossed those 12 levels, but because this is a group project I created the extra rank so that all the nominated levels would be accessible in the pack.  If no changes are made to level selection then it will be trivial to cut the extra rank out when the later stages focus on polish and details.

I think the five main ranks are in a good shape overall, but I am biased since I created the ordering.

[namida]

11. 'Dolly Dimple' There are two levels called 'Dolly Dimple', created with different graphic sets and skillsets. The ONML version (in the redux) involves too much building to get the last lemming home, while the Prima version (in the extra rank) is a decent albeit quite an easy puzzle. I might suggest changing the requirement total of the ONML version to 79/80, provided that it doesn't create any new backroutes. Otherwise, remove it and replace it with the Prima version.

Aren't we generally avoiding modifications unless it's to fix backroutes?

[Minim]

11. 'Dolly Dimple' There are two levels called 'Dolly Dimple', created with different graphic sets and skillsets. The ONML version (in the redux) involves too much building to get the last lemming home, while the Prima version (in the extra rank) is a decent albeit quite an easy puzzle. I might suggest changing the requirement total of the ONML version to 79/80, provided that it doesn't create any new backroutes. Otherwise, remove it and replace it with the Prima version.

Aren't we generally avoiding modifications unless it's to fix backroutes?

Sorry; you're right. If we keep changing save requirements then this redux project may get out of hand.

Speaking of backroutes; I discovered that in "Quest for Kieran" (Currently in Rank 1, Level 28) that under NeoLemmix Mechanics you are able to stretch your builders so that all lemmings reach the exit. After some testing, if we move the exit platform by two pixels to the left then that would fix the problem.

[Dullstar]

In regards to Dolly Dimple:

While changing the requirements for levels could potentially get out of hand, I think in a few limited cases it could be justified. Assuming the current is 80/80 _{(Suggestion: Don't say you changed the requirement to X; say you changed the requirement from Y to X; this makes it easier if someone doesn't recall the requirements off the top of their head)}, 79/80 for Dolly Dimple might not be unreasonable. I think the ONML version is slightly more interesting than the other version, but it is certainly builder-heavy.  I don't remember how much extra building that one extra lemming takes to save off the top of my head, though, so I don't know if the 79/80 change would actually solve the problem.

That said, I would propose the following restriction on changes to save requirements (not counting changes made to prevent backroutes):
 - Can only make the save requirement looser (e.g. from 80/80 to 79/80 is okay, but from 79/80 to 80/80 is not)
 - Should only be done in situations where it is obvious how to save the remaining lemmings but tedious to do so

[namida]

After some testing, if we move the exit platform by two pixels to the left then that would fix the problem.

Unless there's some other detail I'm overlooking (which is possible), if it'd need a two pixel change, it's probably still possible in the standard game. If it'd only need a one pixel change, it could indeed be a NeoLemmix-only thing (as left-facing builders stretch one pixel less far in the DOS games compared to NeoLemmix; right-facing builders are unaffected).

[Dullstar]

After some testing, if we move the exit platform by two pixels to the left then that would fix the problem.

Unless there's some other detail I'm overlooking (which is possible), if it'd need a two pixel change, it's probably still possible in the standard game. If it'd only need a one pixel change, it could indeed be a NeoLemmix-only thing (as left-facing builders stretch one pixel less far in the DOS games compared to NeoLemmix; right-facing builders are unaffected).

Is this level present in any DOS version? I'm not familiar with the level off the top of my head.

[namida]

Frost 9 from Holiday Lemmings 94.

[bsmith]

I have two different solutions for ONML Dolly Dimple.  In my anti-splat build solution I use a total of six builders.  In my everybody over the left side solution I use only three builders. 
Changing the save requirement from 80 to 79 saves only one builder in the first solution (and that builder is just a one brick lemming turnaround) and no builders saved in the second.  So, I don't think changing the save requirement will have any real effect on solutions.  I still prefer this level over the other Dolly Dimple level.

I have always solved Quest for Kieran with just two builders and a miner.  If this is a backroute then I have no idea what the intended solution is.
The exit platform could be moved four pixels to the left and have no effect on my solution.   Moving it six pixels would just make the final builder pixel precise.

[Dullstar]

6 builders isn't too bad IMO, especially considering we have the ability to skip forward and it just so happens that the default is about the same amount of time as a builder takes.

[bsmith]

I had some time recently to take another look at the current Redux pack.  Some more thoughts on some levels:

In 'Tunnel Vision' (currently rank 3 level 19) a climber can safely ascend past the spike trap but gets killed when falling down past it.  Is this okay?

In 'Lemmintaschen?' (currently rank 4 level 2) it is possible to bash between two of the steel blocks.  Is this a backroute due to Neolemmix steel?  I think I remember in the DOS version that the steel area covered the snow between the visible portions of the steel pates.

In 'Poles Apart' (currently rank 5 level 4) is the ceiling route possible?  If so it could make a good talisman.

Out of all the levels (including the 12 alternates currently in the Extra rank) these are the ones I think should keep a time limit:
2-27 Just A Quicky
2-28 Speed Trap
3-15 No Time for a Detour
3-21 Four Play
4-8 Five Alive
4-13 Synchronized Lemmings
4-14 Just A Minute
4-17 The Silence of the Lemmings
4-24 Onward and Upward
5-1 Its Hero Time
5-6 Lemming About Town
5-12 Just A Minute (Part Two)
5-18 Scaling the Heights
5-24 Hello John Got A New Lemming
5-26 Oh No! Squish
Ex-2 2 Minutes Before Midnight
Ex-5 Just A Minute (Part Three)
I am thinking that 'Just A Quicky' can be moved up earlier in the pack: rank 2 level 4 seems like a good place in my opinion.  Right now this list of timed levels is weighted towards the end of the pack, which I am okay with.

I am thinking that in the next Redux version I will remove the 12 extra levels since there seems to be no objections to the 150 levels in the five main ranks.  I plan to wait for version 1.48 to become the official stable release so that the special graphic levels use the new graphic set mixing as opposed to the soon-to-be depreciated VGASPEC system.

[namida]

In 'Tunnel Vision' (currently rank 3 level 19) a climber can safely ascend past the spike trap but gets killed when falling down past it.  Is this okay?

Probably not. This might be something better addressed via trigger area changes than level changes; depending on how the trap is generally placed in levels. (In the case of the flamethrower trap in the fire set, I fixed this via trigger area changes a long time ago.)

In 'Lemmintaschen?' (currently rank 4 level 2) it is possible to bash between two of the steel blocks.  Is this a backroute due to Neolemmix steel?  I think I remember in the DOS version that the steel area covered the snow between the visible portions of the steel pates.

If it shouldn't be possible, place extra steel between them. Make sure it isn't possible on DOS first (or that it doesn't significantly affect the level's solution).


With that being said, let's leave level modifications until we're more or less settled on a level list.

[Minim]

I am thinking that in the next Redux version I will remove the 12 extra levels since there seems to be no objections to the 150 levels in the five main ranks.

Hang on; there is one level in the 150 that I think should be removed: "Fix the road, quick!" (Currently in 5-21) I've stated this in my spreadsheet but never mentioned this in the forums; With this level being builders only and that there are gaps to fix, a level concept that involves building gaps with other lemmings while creating a path is so boring and tedious. Havoc 12, another builders only level, uses a concept that is much better. This level is a lot shorter than the other one and requires fairly precise builder placements.

I'll have a look at the rest of your earlier post later on, but thought I might mention this first to get that out of the way.

[namida]

In regards to waiting for V1.48n - levels that use the default VGASPECs will work fine with V1.48n, because V1.48n can auto-patch these to use graphic set mixing instead (nonetheless, the copies of levels in recent NXPs have been updated to use graphic set mixing anyway). It's only custom ones that need special attention.

However, my intention for Redux is to include it packaged in with the new-formats version of NeoLemmix, whenever that ends up coming. Of course, if it's ready before then, there's no reason not to offer a copy that's compatible with current versions at the time. This is just why I haven't treated it as a particularly high priority for now.

[bsmith]

Another idea for this pack.  Should we use the 'Author' field of the level to display which official game a level was first seen in?

[Proxima]

That's a good idea.

Sorry, I've been unwell for a few days, so I haven't gotten round to having a look at the latest version and offering my suggestions for which levels to remove. I certainly oppose removing "Fix the road, quick", which is a very nice puzzle where you have to work out the best way to keep the crowd contained with builders only. Yes, it's true that the crowd-control is made necessary by having a bit where you have to build a long bridge with the worker lemming, but in NL long bridges are just a matrer of click, ten-second skip, click, ten-second skip and so on, no problem whatever.

[bsmith]

New version of the Redux, this one is built for v1.48/10.010.010.

Updates and Changes:
The special graphic set levels use graphic set mixing now.
I removed timers from the majority of levels.
Added entries to the Author field to indicate which release each level was first seen in. 
'Just A Quicky' has been moved earlier in its rank. 
The Extra rank is still present as we still seem to still have discussions as to whether 'Fix the Road Quick' should be included. 
Finally I removed some of the obviously excessive bombers on levels, like the ones given on save 100% levels or bombers in excess of the number of lemmings that can be lost (I left X of everything levels untouched).

[Minim]

The Extra rank is still present as we still seem to still have discussions as to whether 'Fix the Road Quick' should be included. 

Well, looks like Proxima's provided a solid counterargument with 'Fix the Road, Quick' so maybe we should keep this in, even though I'm not a fan of this level myself. Out of the twelve levels in the bonus rank, I think 'Worra load of old blocks' could be brought back, even though there're hidden traps.

Some spoilery comments (click to show/hide)

The digging down the narrow wall twice concept is rather interesting and unique compared to other levels, unless I'm mistaken for another level.

[namida]

I had a look through bsmith's NXP (finally), here's my thoughts on the ordering, and the levels in "Extra":

-= Too Early =-
0126 "Across the gap"
0130 "Dolly Dimple"
0205 "The Stack"
0206 "Postcard From Lemmingland"
0309 "A Towering Problem"
0412 "Fall And No Life"
0428 "Fall And No Life (Part 2)"

-= Too Late =-
0213 "Going Their Seperate Ways"
0221 "The Crankshaft"
0223 "Pop Your Top"
0229 "Cascade"
0303 "The Needs Of The Many"
0308 "Don't Leave Any Lemmings"
0312 "The Bridge Is Breaking Down"
0317 "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door"
0321 "Four Play"
0327 "Last Lemming To Lemmingcentral"
0404 "The Far Side" - Would suit position if time limit was restored, I think, but I am not in favor of restoring it (I am definitely in favor of keeping this level though)
0430 "POOR WEE CREATURES"
0504 "Poles Apart"
0508 "Down, Along, Up. In That Order"
0528 "Triple Trouble" - HOW IS THIS IN THE LAST 3?! (I do agree with including it in general, but nowhere near this late in the pack)
0529 "Save Me" - The difficulty from this one comes from the precise assignments near the end, which are no longer as difficult under NeoLemmix

-= Unknown =-
0313 "Let's Go Camping" - I only know the backroute solution

-= Extra =-
0601 "Tribute to M C Escher" - No preference either way.
0602 "2 minutes to midnight" - Slightly in favor of including.
0603 "Jacklemmings" - Not in favor of including.
0604 "It's a tight fit" - Not in favor of including.
0605 "Just A Minute Part 3" - No preference either way.
0606 "Higgedly Piggedly" - No preference either way.
0607 "The Gate Trap Lemmings" - Slightly in favor of including.
0608 "Looks a bit nippy out there" - Not in favor of including.
0609 "With A Twist Of Lemming Please" - Strongly in favor of including.
0610 "Quote: That's A Good Level" - Slightly in favor of including.
0611 "Dolly Dimple?" - Not in favor of including.
0612 "Worra lorra old blocks" - No preference either way.

[Proxima]

Sorry for taking so long to get round to this. I've had a look through the pack now, and I think as regards selection, the current "main 150" is a very solid selection and there's only one more change I would suggest making: Havoc 3 "It's the price you have to pay" should be dropped and either Mayhem 21 "With a twist of lemming, please" or Crazy 15 "Worra load of old blocks" re-included.

Reasons for this change:
* Minim was the original proponent of including Havoc 3. On page 12 of this topic he says this was "only in case of emergency", i.e. it could easily be scrapped in favour of a different level.
* Havoc 3 is not a very well-designed level, with too many alternative solutions / backroutes.
* Pro Crazy 15: The main solution is interesting (as Minim noted above; Flopsy also noted this much earlier in the thread). The main thing against is the hidden traps (however, you discover them very early in playing the level). There are alternative solutions, but they are harder than the main solution, so not really backroutes.
* Pro Mayhem 21: namida is in favour. The solution is interesting, and the annoyance of selecting a right-facing basher is fixed in NeoLemmix. The main thing against is the annoyance of assigning 50 floaters. In NeoLemmix we could change it to a floater-spawning hatch (though maybe this is a bit "off" as it introduces a new mechanic for a single level).
* As an alternative, I've suggested using the SMS level with the same terrain as Mayhem 21. This has an interesting solution that requires building a landing platform instead of assigning 50 floaters. There hasn't yet been any discussion of this proposal, so no points have been raised against.

Regarding namida's comments on the other "Extra" levels: fair enough, some of them are somewhat interesting, but re-including any of these levels means dropping one of the current main 150. Except for Havoc 3, I would rather keep all the current main 150 in preference to any of the Extras.

* * *

Now onto ordering. A quick look through the pack suggests that Rank 1 is fairly solid, but the other ranks have many cases where I disagree with the ordering. I think the best thing to do is to make final decisions on selection and Rank 1 ordering, then look in detail at which levels should move up or down a rank, then work on the ordering within each rank.

So for now I'll only comment on Rank 1. Only two levels here felt out of place -- the same two namida highlighted, "Across the Gap" and "Dolly Dimple". These are not Rank 1 levels.

Moving them up means two levels have to move down. I would have suggested "The Stack", but I see namida disagrees. Instead, I will propose "It's lemmingentry, Watson" and "Going Their Separate Ways" -- the latter is a memorable level that would be suitable for being the last of a rank.

[namida]

The main thing against is the annoyance of assigning 50 floaters. In NeoLemmix we could change it to a floater-spawning hatch (though maybe this is a bit "off" as it introduces a new mechanic for a single level).

Alternatively, we could reduce the level to 10 or 20 lemmings.

So for now I'll only comment on Rank 1. Only two levels here felt out of place -- the same two namida highlighted, "Across the Gap" and "Dolly Dimple". These are not Rank 1 levels.

Moving them up means two levels have to move down. I would have suggested "The Stack", but I see namida disagrees. Instead, I will propose "It's lemmingentry, Watson" and "Going Their Separate Ways" -- the latter is a memorable level that would be suitable for being the last of a rank.

Going Their Seperate Ways sounds like a good choice, especially if used as the rank-ender. Perhaps Cascade is another good one to put into late Rank 1?



Another level that IIRC was left out but I would like to see included is "The Steel Mines Of Kessel". The biggest reason for this - it provides a GREAT opportunity to add a talisman challenge; specifically completing the level without blockers. (At one point this level didn't have blockers in the NL conversion of Orig, but I readded them after realising how much harder it made the level - it was definitely still possible though.)

[bsmith]

I was thinking of removing "Let's go camping" due to its backroute, but I have figured out a way to remove the backroute with a small terrain change and removing the digger.  I think "The gate trap Lemmings" is a good level, but as stated earlier what do we remove if we want to keep the pack to 150 levels.

"You Live and Lem" is in the pack currently, which is the easy version of "The Steel Mines of Kessel".  I have in my notes levels I want to include talismans for and this is one of them.  Alternately, "Don't leave any Lemmings" is in the pack and has the builder/blocker/bomber theme that Kessel uses. I think Kessel is more interesting and if we include a talisman for Live and Lem then Don't Leave could be removed.

[Proxima]

I looked back through the earlier discussion, and it turns out, we did discuss Havoc 3, and namida proposed a way to de-backroute it, namely reducing builders to 1. So I'm not entirely against including this level any more.

Well, we have a number of levels that are on the fringe of inclusion/removal, but we have to make a decision, so maybe we should regard everything except Havoc 3 as fixed, and have a poll between Havoc 3 and the suggested alternatives (Crazy 15, Mayhem 21, SMS version of Mayhem 21) and then a separate poll for Don't leave any Lemmings vs Kessel?

* * *

EDIT: I just had another look, and there's another level I think should be removed: Wicked 7 "Last Lemming to Lemmingcentral". This becomes trivial with instant bombers (because you can bomb in the first five seconds from leaving the hatch).

* * *

I don't think Cascade should be down-ranked. In earlier discussion, Nepster agreed with this and said it was, in his opinion, the hardest Tricky level.

Another candidate for the second level to down-rank would be "Pillar talking".

[Proxima]

Sorry, I just spotted another problematic level:

In 'Lemmintaschen?' (currently rank 4 level 2) it is possible to bash between two of the steel blocks.  Is this a backroute due to Neolemmix steel?  I think I remember in the DOS version that the steel area covered the snow between the visible portions of the steel pates.

If it shouldn't be possible, place extra steel between them. Make sure it isn't possible on DOS first (or that it doesn't significantly affect the level's solution).

With that being said, let's leave level modifications until we're more or less settled on a level list.

Yes, on this level (picture here) it's possible to build to the long horizontal bar, then bash all the way across. That said, other solutions (the one pictured, or build up and bash the top bar) are just about as easy. Either down-rank this level to Rank 1, or remove it entirely.

[Ron_Stard]

It seems that the levels I adapted from ZX Spectrum and NES (currently located at Fun 22 [A Spot Of Bother], Tricky 28 [Speed Trap] and Havoc 24 [Hello John Got A New Lemming]) have a small preview screen than the rest of the levels in this Redux pack. I suppose that happens because they were built with the 1.43 editor, right? Should I rebuild/save as with a current NeoLemmix editor, or there is another explanation?

[bsmith]

Opening your ZX remakes in the editor shows the levels use the original size of 1584x160.  Most of the levels in the redux pack were taken from namida's versions of the classic lemmings packs in which he has cropped out the unused space.  I have added cropping these levels to my to-do list for the next build of the redux pack.  If you do compile all your ZX remakes into a single pack you may want to crop all your levels at that time.

[namida]

It seems that the levels I adapted from ZX Spectrum and NES (currently located at Fun 22 [A Spot Of Bother], Tricky 28 [Speed Trap] and Havoc 24 [Hello John Got A New Lemming]) have a small preview screen than the rest of the levels in this Redux pack. I suppose that happens because they were built with the 1.43 editor, right? Should I rebuild/save as with a current NeoLemmix editor, or there is another explanation?

bsmith pretty much got it. If you change the level size (in the editor's Level Properties method), so that there's no excess space, it'll work better. This was possible already in the V1.43 editor (though upgrading is highly recommended).

[Ron_Stard]

Opening your ZX remakes in the editor shows the levels use the original size of 1584x160.  Most of the levels in the redux pack were taken from namida's versions of the classic lemmings packs in which he has cropped out the unused space.  I have added cropping these levels to my to-do list for the next build of the redux pack.  If you do compile all your ZX remakes into a single pack you may want to crop all your levels at that time.

bsmith pretty much got it. If you change the level size (in the editor's Level Properties method), so that there's no excess space, it'll work better. This was possible already in the V1.43 editor (though upgrading is highly recommended).

Thank you! Here are the modified versions, I remove almost all redundant void space in the three of them:

Speed Trap
(Mayhem 3 from ZX Spectrum Lemmings)


A Spot Of Bother
(Taxing 6 from NES Lemmings)


Hello John! Got A New Lemming?
(Mayhem 16 from NES Lemmings)

[mobius]

I feel like looking through the list and giving some thoughts; is bsmith's nxp the most up-do-date?

[bsmith]

The latest build of the Redux is on one of my posts about half way up page 14 with a verbose name: Lemmings Redux 162 v10.010.010 10-23-2016.nxp  I have not made any recent builds since there was little discussion since then until namida rekindled the topic a few weeks ago.

I would love to see more feedback, so please feel free to offer any ideas you have.

[mobius]

played some of it; my thoughts so far:

on Snuggle up to a Lemming: I suggest moving the exit over to the left of the large structure. It only makes the level very slightly more difficult for a beginner and I always though the level was weird with all that non-used space on the left.

All the 6's: I was never a big fan of this level, or any levels like this to be honest. Even though I made one, I no longer like it.

just in case you weren't aware; the empty sides of some levels like "A Spot of Bother" haven't been removed.

Is CindyLand a reference to something? I'm not familiar with this level.

I think Across the Gap should placed a little bit later. It's not nearly as straightforward as the other here imo. Same for Dolly Dimple. Also I suggest changing the name of Dolly Dimple to the Genesis name; "Dangerous Balcony" I like  this level btw, I read some people don't like it; I think it offers a decent challenge for beginners and has a surprising number of solutions. Also I might recommend using the Genesis version I think the decoration is better.
I've always found Poscard from Lemmingland harder than "It's Lemmingentry Watson, I would move that a little later.

Vacation in Gemland; I'm not real fond of this level.

I might have some other levels to suggest replacing later.

[mobius]

more comments on Fun:
I'm super fond of the levels:
Quest for Kieran
CindyLand


Tricky:
The decoration on "No Justice for the Hero" could be better; maybe I'll try to offer something. Also this level may be easier than it's position.

Speed Trap needs the empty sides cropped. I like this level a lot btw; and some of the other new ones that were chosen.

Taxing:
Come Over to My Place is an okay level but I'd prefer it removed if better levels are offered.

random thought:
If Hunt the Nessy were reduced to one a few humps; it would make a good fun level.

[namida]

I think we want to avoid drastic modifications to the level. Things that are standard for NeoLemmix - removing blockers if their only use is to position bombers, removing time limits that don't serve a purpose, etc - is alright, and backroute fixes I think is also okay to some extent; but changes such as those suggested for Snuggle Up To A Lemming / Hunt The Nessy are going too far IMO.

[Dullstar]

I haven't checked if Hunt the Nessy is in the suggestions at this time, but if it is, I would highly suggest excluding it since the solution is trivial and tedious.

mobius's proposed change would probably make it a decent early level, when trivial solutions aren't really a big deal. But it's probably possible to do better.

[mobius]

thoughts on Taxing:

I think "Twins" is a bit easy for here, maybe better in Tricky.
Let's get together too hard
flow control too hard

On the Runaround; the entrances need to be marked no overwrite. I might add decoration to this one too.
too easy

towering problem too easy

Pitfall; not the biggest fan of this level; it's one of those that seems hard at first then turns out to be easy and feels a bit backroutish [not as bad as Let's go camping but Genesis has a ton of these]

The Bridge is Breaking Down -- not particularly outstanding

Let's Go Camping -- only if the backroute is fixed, as I'm expecting you plan to do. Exactly how to acheive that there's probably a couple of ways, one is to make the top platform steel, though that might not be enough...

Plethora of Presents; maybe. This one doesn't really stand out to me.

Tunnel Vision; I'll offer to improve decoration on this one too. Actually I think Lacktardo remade this level once. Way too easy for taxing.

Four Play; It feels like this level could have an interesting solution but has backroutes. At least it turned out to be much easier than I was expecting.

Creature Discomforts: not a fan of this level.

Upsidedown world: not a very big fan of this one.

North Poles; this was a very good one. I see where the inspiration for all these  types of levels came from (in case it's not obvious I've never played Holiday lemmings)


thoughts on rank 4:
Lemmintaschen? I feel like this level was supposed to have some interesting solution but it's very easy and not very interesting.

the price you have to pay; not sure I'm too fond of this level


BTW reguarding that ZX Spectrum level; who is John?

[Ron_Stard]

Speed Trap needs the empty sides cropped. I like this level a lot btw; and some of the other new ones that were chosen.

You're right: according to the official map, it needs to be reduced even more (Level 48) --> http://www.gamesdatabase.org/Media/SYSTEM/Sinclair_ZX_Spectrum/Map/big/Lemmings_-_1991_-_Psygnosis_Limited.jpg

(Also, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0g1tv1gXvk at 2:05:51 on beyond)

BTW reguarding that ZX Spectrum level; who is John?

That level is from NES version, and it's a pun on this 80's song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hhHJ4zEKDZY

whose catchphrase allegedly became part of the popular culture in UK. ZX Spectrum Lemmings has a level called "Jon's Mayhem Level" (Level 56), which also seems to pay tribute to this catchphrase.

[mobius]

to be clear; when I said certain levels were too easy I meant they should be moved back; not that they necessarily should be removed.

rank 4:

Emmings no L -- entrances need to be marked no overwrite.
Out of the christmas levels this ones stood out to me.

Old McDonald Had a Farm - not a huge fan of this one

Silence of Lemmings - a bit easy for it's position

Lemming Tomato -- don't like this level.

Snow Joke: I think this is a bit easy for rank 4.

I think POOR wEE CREATURES may fit better in the previous rank.

Onward and Upward; not a huge fan of this one.

Down the Tube: don't like this one.


Some of rank 4 and 5 I would swap, maybe Evil Whisper, Water Proccessing Plant, Synchronised Lemming,

rank 5:

Hero Time; I would put this in rank 4.

Mutiny on the Bounty; swap with 4

Poles Apart; I know the acid on the poles was there in the original but I think this looks incredibly silly.

rank 6:

I don't like "Dolly Dimple?"
I think Worra Load of Old Blocks should go in the main ranks; I liked this level, or it's Genesis remake.

I'm almost done, but I haven't looked through all of rank 5 and 6 yet.

[namida]

"You Live and Lem" is in the pack currently, which is the easy version of "The Steel Mines of Kessel".

Although a bit more awkward, the talisman could still work on this level. Basically would be "complete the level with no more than 10 bombers, 10 builders, no other skills, and saving at least 90 lemmings". I don't see any need to enforce Steel Mines' time limit (which would probably be one that gets removed anyway if the level were to be included).

[mobius]

rank 6:
JackLemmings ; not a fan
It's a tight fit; maybe, I can see this one being removed.

Just a Minute Part 3: this is a classic example of a Genesis level that's not going to work as intended because the physics are different (can't mine on wrong arrows). You could argue that it's still solvable but I don't care for it either way.
But I must argue if you're saying you'd not like to alter a level very much then I don't like the idea of including a level that's going to be fundamentally different because of a thing like this-- even if you're not altering the level directly it's being altered in the end.

Twist of Lemming: As I personally don't have any problem altering a level (and thus would be okay with allowing Just a minute 3; the reason I voted no is because I just don't care for the level itself); I'd love to include this one as long as, and only if the number of lemmings is reduced to about 5 or 10. This is a good puzzle level with totally unnecessary tedium at the start.

The rest except "Dolly Dimple?" and maybe MC Escher, I think can be included in the main game. I'm guessing this extra rank isn't part of the final plan?

[namida]

Just a Minute Part 3: this is a classic example of a Genesis level that's not going to work as intended because the physics are different (can't mine on wrong arrows). You could argue that it's still solvable but I don't care for it either way.

The level has been specifically adapated so it will work in NeoLemmix (if it's not adapted, then most likely this NXP has an out-of-date copy of the level). A bit of non-one-way terrain - enough to mine on, not enough to really use for anything else - has been added.

[namida]

Another thought I've just had, somewhat inspired by the Mayhem 21 issue - the general trend with newer levels is to usually keep the number of lemmings relatively low; whereas 80 or 100 was the usual amount in the past, these days 20 to 40 seems to be far more common. Should we make such changes to levels in this pack, too?

One possible reason against it is that unlike other NL trends, such as the removal of time limits and empty space, this change more often than not seems to not get applied to older levels when being updated for new versions of NL. (On the contrary, Lix does seem to be implementing this when updating, however one crucial difference here is that Lix no longer allows the player to change the release rate, while NL does unless the individual level prohibits it - which older levels won't, due to the feature not existing at that time.)



From a look through various recent NL packs, the general trend in NL seems to be towards 50, but levels with even fewer are starting to become more common very recently - for example, 20 is nearly twice as common as 50 in LPO2, and 30 is also more common than 50). And a point of interest is that Lix is usually a few steps ahead of NL in terms of level design conventions, and in Lix, the most common values (at least based off the LemForums pack) are 20 and 10. I don't know how I feel about using 10 as a standard, but if we do go ahead with this idea, using 20 as a "default" value should work well. Of course, this doesn't at all mean that no level can have a larger amount of lemmings - for levels such as Cascade that need the high number of lemmings to keep the original feel, there's no reason why a higher number can't be used, but I'm just meaning as a general guideline when there's no real reason to have more. (The Sega Master System version of Lemmings also used 20 as a maximum, and only a very small number of levels were worse off because of it. In the case of an NL pack, we can just not apply such a change to levels that would be affected in such a way.)

[namida]

In regards to fitting Mayhem 21 in, I think Sega Four is a good level to consider cutting. Even though it's a good level, it's the only level in the pack using the Sega tileset, which is a tileset many new players may be unfamiliar with. On top of that, it also raises the issue of "Where's Sega One, Two and Three then?"; although this isn't as big a concern, given that Redux is a compilation pack and would advertise itself as such, meaning the (correct) explanation of "they weren't deemed worthy of inclusion" is easily arrived at.

[mobius]

I think decreasing overall Lemming counts (as long as it doesn't negatively effect the level) is okay. It helps a great deal on levels like "With a Twist of Lemming"

[namida]

Since we should ideally move towards getting a final level list (then we can focus more on ordering / fixes), I think we're starting to see a bit more in favor of including Mayhem 21, subject to a reduction in the number of lemmings - which will probably happen anyway not just for this level, but across the board.

With this in mind, we do need to pick one level to remove. Aside from Sega Four (which would be my pick), Proxima mentioned two other candidates in IRC; one of which was Lemmingtaschen (I can't remember the other one). This doesn't mean a different level's removal is ruled out, though. Any input on which one?

One other point that came up is whether or not we need to include the training levels, which if not, could make room for a few more of the borderline case levels - as well as room for Mayhem 21. In the future, I plan to include this pack with NeoLemmix itself, which would also come with the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack - which could simply be expanded into a full Lemmings introduction pack for NeoLemmix. We don't nessecerially need to cut all of them; some can quite easily stand on their own as just easy levels. Fun 3 in particular comes to mind here, and to a lesser extent, Fun 7. Possibly even Fun 5.

[Proxima]

Putting together the feedback from the last two pages:

The "Extra" rank are levels that had less support to begin with than the main levels, so they shouldn't be re-added without strong consensus. Only two Extra levels have had multiple votes in favour: "Worra load of old blocks" and "With a twist of lemming, please". The only level outside the current pack whose reinclusion has been suggested is "The Steel Mines of Kessel".

So, we should consider these three levels plus the main 150 as our pool, and decide on exactly three levels to leave out (which may, of course, include some of the above suggested additions). "Last Lemming to Lemmingcentral" should certainly be dropped, as it's trivialised in NL due to the ability to explode lems in the first five seconds out the hatch (this was simply overlooked earlier). It looks like there's a fairly strong consensus that "Lemmintaschen" is weak and shouldn't make the cut.

For the final level to drop, I certainly don't agree with cutting "Sega Four"; not only is it a good level, but we decided to keep it as a sort of equivalent to a special graphics level so as to keep one in each rank. "It's the price you have to pay" is really the only one that stands out as having several votes against, though another possibility is "All the 6's".

So, having got this far, how do we make the final decision? Should we have a last vote on the borderline levels, or just go with these additions and removals and call it a day?

* * *

I'm strongly opposed to cutting Fun 1-7, because I think it's the perfect way to start a level pack, with simple levels playing with the skills one at a time so the player will definitely get used to all of them. Just look at how many usermade packs start in this fashion, even when the pack as a whole is clearly aimed at players already familiar with the game.

[bsmith]

I am in favor of dropping "Last Lemming to Lemmingcentral" and "Lemmintaschen" to include "Worra load of old blocks" and "With a twist of lemming, please".

There was some support for "The gate trap Lemmings", but not as much as "Worra load of old blocks" and "With a twist of lemming, please".  If we add a third level then I think "The gate trap Lemmings" is the one.

Namida brought up "The Steel Mines of Kessel" for the talisman (90% with 10 builders and 10 bombers) which we can instead apply to its Fun version "You Live and Lem", which is in the pack.

I have a talisman idea for "All the 6's" (100% with 11 builders and 1 of each other skill), so I do not want that level cut.

"It's the price you have to pay" seemed to have gotten mentioned mainly for what is believed to be a major backroute: trapping the lemmings between the posts instead of letting them take a long walk.  A fix was proposed by reducing the number of builders.

[namida]

For the final level to drop, I certainly don't agree with cutting "Sega Four"; not only is it a good level, but we decided to keep it as a sort of equivalent to a special graphics level so as to keep one in each rank.

However, at that point we were contemplating six ranks, weren't we? We have five special graphics levels without including it, unless we plan to drop one of them (or already have; I don't remember off-hand).

[namida]

<Proxima> i tried to persuade namida about having a team leader but no luck

I don't mind taking on this role, especially given that I originally started this project (albeit at the suggestion of others, including you IIRC) and that I want to eventually ship it with NeoLemmix. I just didn't want to be pushy and say "okay, I'm taking this role now and making all the decisions". But if it's preferred that I take it on, I don't mind this - and now is an alright time for this, as aside from updating my own packs as needed for V10.13 when it arrives (which won't be too much work) I'm not working on any packs at the moment - at least until I decide "alright, time to start making Lemmings Plus VI", and I think I want to wait a bit longer for that as I got a bit dry on level ideas towards the end of making LPO2.

[namida]

I have a talisman idea for "All the 6's" (100% with 11 builders and 1 of each other skill), so I do not want that level cut.

How about 100% with only 7 builders and 1 each of the other skills? (Even this is still fairly easy, but I could see it at least being worthy of a bronze talisman.)

EDIT: Found a way with only 6 builders, even - which could (but doesn't really benefit from) even have a time limit of 1:45. As far as I can tell, 5 builders is not possible without allowing losing one lemming, which makes this very trivial, time limit or not.

[bsmith]

New build of the Redux attached.  Changes made from the previous build:
- Lemminatschen and Last Lemming to Lemming Central have been removed and replaced with Worra Load of old Blocks and With a Twist of Lemming Please.
- Across the Gap and Dolly Dimple have been moved up to rank 2.  Turn Around Young Lemmings and Going Their Separate Ways have been moved down to rank 1.
- Removed the Extra rank
- The ZX levels Spot of Bother, Speed Trap, and Hello John Got a New Lemming have been cropped.
- Removed the digger from Let's Go Camping, this removes the most obvious backroute.
- Reduced the number of builders from 3 to 1 in It's the Price you Have to Pay.
- Moved the traps in Let's Go Camping and Compression Method by a few pixels to make the traps visible.
- Repositioned the traps and added a 'window' to see the traps in Worra Lorra of old Blocks.
- Reduced the number of lemmings in With a Twist of Lemming Please to 25 (Talisman idea: solve the level in 2 minutes without adjusting the release rate)

At this point I want to know if the current set of 150 levels in this build will be our final set.  Perhaps it is time for a poll?

[Proxima]

Yes, let's make a final decision on the level list next. There are still a couple of levels on the fringe of inclusion / exclusion, but I'm happy to go along with whatever we decide regarding these.

At the moment, it looks like it's down to "All the 6's" and "It's the price you have to pay" as possible exclusions, "The gate trap Lemmings" and "The Steel Mines of Kessel" as possible inclusions.

Good call on moving "Turn around young lemmings" down, this level becomes much easier in NL with untimed bombers. But perhaps we should also consider cutting it entirely.

I had another look through the Genesis levels to see if any particular favourites had been left out. "Where do you see Lemmings?" and "Let's go to the moon" are good easy levels that haven't been considered yet; I'd like to add these as suggestions for replacing "All the 6's" (particularly "Where do you see Lemmings?", which would be my first choice). "Final impediment" is another one where fixing the backroute might be problematic, and if this can't be done then it should be left out.

Regarding the other changes: I think you should add one builder to "Let's go camping" to compensate for the missing digger (or fix it some other way). The level has become enormously harder now, and since it was already one of the tougher puzzles in the original games, that might not be what we want.

[Ron_Stard]

Regarding the other changes: I think you should add one builder to "Let's go camping" to compensate for the missing digger (or fix it some other way). The level has become enormously harder now, and since it was already one of the tougher puzzles in the original games, that might not be what we want.

On the pre-1.43 NeoLemmix version of "Cheapo Copycat - Other Levels", there was a "Let's Go Camping" fixed scenario, with a slightly different skillset, and a left column: both of those changes prevented obvious backroutes and even make the level challenging and interesting.

EDIT - This was the modified level, and its skillset went this way: 2|1|1|1|7|2|0|1, with a RR of 50 and 4:00 minutes of timing:



The author of this fixed level was Michael S. Repto

[Proxima]

The author of this fixed level was Michael S. Repton

That would be me

I can't remember now why I added the climbers (the only change to the skillset). It doesn't look like that was to prevent backroutes (and I'm not sure how adding skills could ever prevent backroutes). The steel, though, was an obvious and completely unsubtle backroute fix.

I'm not sure I even knew a non-backroute solution at the time; I think I found one for the first time when playing the level in Lix, so that would have been years later.

* * *

Addendum to my previous post: I'm against weighting "this level has a cool talisman" very heavily as a factor when deciding which levels to include. I think we should select on the merits of the level, and then decide on a good set of talismans for the levels we have.

[Proxima]

I just realised: the extra climbers were to allow solutions where one or two lemmings take the long route, the other two or one being allowed to climb over the steel directly to the exit. I didn't, at the time, know of any solution where all three take the long route.

Now that I do know the "all three take the long route" solution, I'd be inclined to treat that as the main solution and enforce it if possible.

[bsmith]

I think All the 6s is worth including if we just reduce the supplies to 6 of each rather than 66, possibly also change the save quantity to 60/66 in keeping with the 6 theme.

I would support cutting Turn Around Young Lemmings to include The Gate Trap Lemmings.  Turn Around feels tutorialish at this point.

Lets Go Camping seems to have several backroutes.  I have found 2 which involve placing a blocker and getting a basher to undermine him, even without the digger.  I have attached a proposed fix to Lets Go Camping.  The empty area between the right of the entrance and the rightmost block is wider.  This eliminates one backroute and gives my scout lemming some extra spacing ahead of the other two.  A steel plate was added to prevent the other backroute, but not jutting out of the terrrain like in the Cheapo version.  A third basher was added to the skillset.

[Proxima]

I think that change improves "All the 6's", but I still prefer including either of the Genesis levels I mentioned. Or both, if we additionally cut "Turn around young lemmings".

What solution to Let's Go Camping are you trying to enforce? I've attached a replay to your latest version that feels like a non-backroute to me (all three go down), but it uses the blocker-release trick you seem to dislike.

[Ron_Stard]

Interesting. Never tried Proxima solution to solve this level. I've always thought the intended solution was this one I've attached.

[bsmith]

The backroutes I am trying to eliminate are ones where a blocker is placed just to the right of the entrance - both of which involve solutions that ignore half of the level.  It is hard to say what is the intended solution but I would say anything making use of the entire level is acceptable.  I have my own solution attached (the last basher is not necessary).

[mobius]

Without the backroute of turning around right at the start; I found "Let's go camping" very difficult. I would say any solution that goes down around (using most of the level) should be acceptable. There are probably lots of variations on this; I remember geoo and ccx (or somebody) have two very different ones years ago.

[Proxima]

geoo's is basically the one I posted above; he used the digger to delay one lemming, where I used the extra basher in bsmith's version. My original solution doesn't work any more without the digger.

[namida]

If we're down to the last decision on whether to remove "It's the price you have to pay" vs "All the 6's" to remove in favor of "The Gate Trap Lemmings" (I don't see much need to add The Steel Mines Of Kessel if we're going to base the talisman on You Live And Lem; as the talisman is essentially just Kessel minus the blockers), I'd personally go with removing the former. All The 6's has quite a history / iconic status to it, and I think it would be a bit weird to remove it.

So, any objections to dropping "It's the price you have to pay" in favor of "The Gate Trap Lemmings"?

Once we've got a decision on this, I think we should start looking at what levels need adjustments. We shouldn't be overly heavy on these - they should either be to keep levels in line with newer trends (such as fewer lemmings, removing time limits, making traps clearly visible, etc), or for the purpose of fixing backroutes; not just because "removing this one skill enforces a really awesome solution". Basically - unless it's a clear backroute, a solution that works on the original version will ideally work on the Redux version too; if a level was too easy for its position, we should handle that by moving it to an earlier position

[Proxima]

All The 6's has quite a history / iconic status to it

...which mostly consists of it being removed in the majority of versions. In any case, I strongly believe we should select levels for quality and fun, not "iconic status".

So, any objections to dropping "It's the price you have to pay" in favor of "The Gate Trap Lemmings"?

No, I'm fine with that. But I still believe we should also drop "All the 6's" for "Where do you see lemmings?" and "Turn around, young lemmings" for another level, or at least see how many people are in favour.

[namida]

I'd argue in favor of keeping Turn Around Young Lemmings. While I am aware solutions that don't use it exist, I found the two-bomber turn around to be quite an impressive trick the first time I played. (Indeed, I've used this trick a few times in my own levels, and it's caught people out in several cases.)

"All The 6's" for "Where Do You See Lemmings" is not a change I'd strongly object to.

[bsmith]

It looks like we are still mulling over five levels.  My thoughts:

After some playing around I have grown to like Turn Around Young Lemmings. It can be completed with only 1 lemming lost. I think this solution is truly talisman-worthy.

All the Sixes has a really excessive number of skills for only 2/3 saved.  If we do not plan to change the stats then I can see this level being removed.  Earlier I suggested if we keep this level then to have 6 of each skill and 60/66 saved.

Reducing the builders to 1 in It's the Price You Have to Pay in my opinion makes the level more interesting (and harder).  However the change also eliminates solutions based on trapping the lemmings between the posts.

I like The Gate Trap Lemmings.  It is the only level that I would want to see added to what we have now.

I just don't like Where Do You See Lemmings?  Nothing specific, just not appealing to me.

With three of these five levels to be in the pack I would choose Turn Around Young Lemmings, It's the Price You Have to Pay, and The Gate Trap Lemmings (effectively swap out All the Sixes for The Gate Trap Lemmings).  This really screams make a poll to select which levels make the final list of 150 levels.

[namida]

After some playing around I have grown to like Turn Around Young Lemmings. It can be completed with only 1 lemming lost. I think this solution is truly talisman-worthy.

It can be completed with no lemmings lost. In fact, most of the levels in the original game can be; some of them that could on DOS no longer can on NeoLemmix due to the 100% solutions relying on glitches, though (Taxing 6 comes to mind here).

With three of these five levels to be in the pack I would choose Turn Around Young Lemmings, It's the Price You Have to Pay, and The Gate Trap Lemmings (effectively swap out All the Sixes for The Gate Trap Lemmings).

The main issue here is that we're already a bit short on easier levels. All The 6s, Where Do You See Lemmings and to some extent Turn Around Young Lemmings fill this role nicely (with the last one being more of a near-the-end-of-first-rank level). Ideally, we want to keep at least two of them.


Anyway, as you suggested, I've put a poll up. Get in quick, as I haven't set this poll to last very long (as I think we've been on the "level selection" phase for long enough already).

[namida]

I've also added source files from Redux (obtained by de-NXP-ifying bsmith's latest build) to the NeoLemmix git repo; check the "NXP" folder under the backwards-compatible branch.

I noticed that since all the special graphics levels are Level 16, the 16th music track will never actually play (except on Sega Four). So, I adjusted the music order so that orig_16 is in the list twice; essentially meaning the music rotation is just "delayed" by one level rather than one track being skipped. (This will no longer be nessecary as such if / when the "Mac style rotation" option is implemented.) An alternative option could be to put the special graphics levels always as Level 24 or higher, as that's when the default rotation restarts from the first track.

Speaking of Sega Four, if we're treating it as a special graphics level (which there are several reasons - people have mentioned treating it as such; it's Level 16 like all the special graphics levels are; and it's the only level in Redux using the Sega tileset), it should probably also have its own unique track, right? At the moment, I've put in the title screen music from the Sega Master System version of Lemmings for this, but if this is a bit weird, using one of the SMS-exclusive tracks could also be an option (however, this might have weird results with people who use the Sega Master System musics instead of the default Amiga ones anyway) - if we do go with this, I vote in favor of the track from Level 13/30 (seriously, that's probably my favorite Lemmings track from any game and any version).


I haven't uploaded an NXP of this yet as some code I wrote to quickly mass-fix certain things has had an unfortunate side effect of messing up the screen start positions of levels. Once I've got that fixed, I'll upload an NXP.

[namida]

Here we go.

Note that the screen start positions aren't yet fixed for the NES or L2 levels, since I fixed them by simply writing some code to copy the correct positions from the copies of the levels in other official game NXPs (which don't exist for these levels). However, in all cases, I've made sure the latest versions (based on the official game conversion NXPs) are used. I didn't include any of the proposed fixes for Let's Go Camping, nor have I done anything about the last few potential level changes yet (in other words, the level list, including order, is unchanged from bsmith's last build).

[Dullstar]

Despite not being a huge fan of either of the levels, I think in the interest of having some relatively easy levels, it's best if, out of the levels in the poll, All the 6's and Turn Around Young Lemming are kept.

[Proxima]

Since I've done a lot of griping in the past about the project moving on before I'd finished giving my input, I'd like to mention that today I had another look at the entire pack, and I'm very happy with the current selection of levels. (I also agree, now that bsmith has pointed it out, that "Turn around young lemmings" is worth including because of its interesting dual solution, with bombers or builders.) There are a couple of my favourite levels that haven't made it in, such as "Temporary peace" and "One way or another", but honestly, I wouldn't advocate re-including those at the expense of any of the current selection.

A couple of isolated thoughts....

"Lemming toast" (currently 1-29) is an easy level with several solutions, and that's fine. Still, I wonder whether it originally had a time limit that was part of the puzzle? [EDIT: The original time limit was 4 minutes, and all solutions fit into this. We could have a talisman for solving it in 1 minute.]

"Five Alive" is much easier with NL mechanics, so it should be down-ranked, but it's still worth including.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Bombing at the edge of the steel destroys the normal terrain but none of the steel, creating a sharp edge.

"Fall and no life" (both parts) could do with slightly enlarging so the pillar pieces aren't sharply cut off by the left edge. This wouldn't have any impact on the solution(s).

[namida]

So, from the poll it seems we have a clear decision in favor of including The Gate Trap Lemmings and Turn Around Young Lemmings. However, we've got a tie between It's The Price You Have To Pay and Where Do You See Lemmings.

Personally, I'm a bit more inclined towards the latter, simply so that we've got a bit more in the way of easy levels. (Counter-argument: The former isn't exactly that hard either.)

[bsmith]

Sounds good.  It looks like we can replace All the 6s with Where Do You See Lemmings and replace Its the Price You Have to Pay with The Gate Trap Lemmings and have an official final list.

I put the special graphic sets at level 16 in each rank thinking 'Here is something special for the halfway point'.  But that was never the case in the official games so I have no problems moving those levels within their ranks.  Although if in each rank we have a good finale level (like Going Their Separate Ways in the first rank) then it may make sense to keep the special levels where they are.

[Proxima]

In addition to finalising the level selection, are there any objections to finalising the selection for Rank 1? I think the current Ranks 2-5 are all over the place in terms of difficulty and will require a lot of discussion to come up with a final arrangement, but the current selection for Rank 1 (if "All the 6's" is replaced with "Where do you see Lemmings?" at the same position) is very solid.

I don't have any problem with the special graphics levels all being Level 16; it's quite a nice touch that the player can spot the pattern and learn to expect a special level at that point. The only objection would be namida's point about the music, but that won't be a problem once Mac-style music rotation is implemented.

Regarding the ordering of levels within Rank 1, the only change I'd suggest is switching "Lemmings in the attic" with "CindyLand"; the latter is a very easy level that should come earlier than its current position.

[namida]

Taking another look at it, I'm not entirely sure if LEMTRIS is Rank 1 material. I'm not sure what the best level would be to swap it with, though.

Anyway, here's an updated NXP. We now have rank signs, and if used with the recent V10.13.16 experimental, you'll get Mac-style music rotation. Haven't reordered anything, just made the switches. I did set the music order back to normal now, though.

[Proxima]

That's actually a good point In that case, I suggest swapping "LEMTRIS" with "Pillar talking".

Also, I noticed a typo on the main menu page: "By the Lemmings Fourms Community".

[namida]

I think it would be best to work on any needed adjustments to levels before we put too much focus on their order. We should decide the order based on how the levels turn out post-adjustment. In some cases this may not make a huge difference, in others it will probably make a lot.

Levels that may need anti-backroute adjustments might be a more controversial matter (since we don't know for sure what is the actual intended solution), so I think we should first start with simply ensuring the levels conform to NeoLemmix conventions. This would mean:
1. Making hidden traps visible (and other similar fixes to misleading designs)
2. Reducing the number of lemmings where suitable
3. Removing time limits on levels that don't need them

#1 will be the most straightforward. There should be very few cases that need discussion, and it will be more a matter of simply going through and making the changes.

#2 will be a bit trickier, though should still be straightforward. The way I see it, the ideal approach would be to simply use some kind of formula or conversion table, which could be applied by a bit of quickly-written code to the entire collection of levels. The levels where this should not happen, I believe, would be in the minority, so these could be reversed manually. (Off the top of my head, the only example I can think of is Cascade, though I'm sure there's more.) Two ideas that have come up are "Halve the count on any levels with more than 30 lemmings", or to use a system like "Leave <=30 as is, 31-50 change to 30, 51-80 change to 40, 81-100 change to 50". Of course, any such formula can be overridden for specific levels - for example, "With A Twist Of Lemming Please" we probably want to consider something even lower than this. Likewise, we might also want to change the NES-origin levels with 14 lemmings to instead have 10 or 20, or maybe even 15 - the reason for 14 there is not because 14 is the optimal amount, but because 14 is the maximum the NES version supports.

#3 may be a bit trickier. Some levels should clearly keep their time limits, for example, "Just A Minute". Some very clearly should not, such as "Save Me". But there are cases that may be a bit more ambiguous, such as "It's Hero Time" - sure, the time limit adds to the challenge, but take it away and you've still got a good, challenging level. Do also keep in mind that we have the option of simply changing the time limit, too - for levels that do need one, but the existing one is a bit too tight. One major advantage here is that whereas the official games only allowed whole minutes, NeoLemmix time limits can be adjusted by seconds.

[Proxima]

Sure, that makes sense -- although those adjustments don't really affect difficulty, except for backroute fixing; but it's still good to focus on one job at a time.

#1 I'm fine with that. I don't think there are any hidden trap levels left in, other than those mentioned in bsmith's post here. The NXP in that post contains possible fixes.

#2 I can think of a few more levels that should keep their lemming count: "Go for it!", "Just a Minute" (both parts), "No time for a detour". Levels with a splat trapdoor should be treated separately instead of by formula: "POOR WEE CREATURES" and "No hurry, Relax."

#3 bsmith's post here has a preliminary list of levels that should keep their time limits.

For #2 and #3, I'll have a look through the pack myself to see if I can find any others.

There may be other minor adjustments to make -- I mentioned enlarging "Fall and no life", and we also need to decide which version to use for each of the levels that appears in both Genesis and ONML.

[namida]

#2 I can think of a few more levels that should keep their lemming count: "Go for it!", "Just a Minute" (both parts), "No time for a detour".

Agree on all four of these. I'd most likely approach this by doing the automated parts first, then looking at each level one at a time during which I'd see these things.

and we also need to decide which version to use for each of the levels that appears in both Genesis and ONML.

I'd say ONML versions in all cases. There'll be less use of the ONML tilesets.

But on the subject of tilesets, one thing that does come to mind - the Xmas levels, should we perhaps convert them to Snow levels? I'm not sure if it's kind of weird to be having the Santa lemmings, and two slight variations of what's otherwise the same graphic set? (This would be as simple as manually replacing the objects, while the terrain can be left as-is.)

Re: bsmith's time limit list, here's the list. Anything I haven't commented on, I agree with.

2-27 Just A Quicky
2-28 Speed Trap
3-15 No Time for a Detour
3-21 Four Play
4-8 Five Alive - Would have to see how this level plays when debackrouted before I could comment.
4-13 Synchronized Lemmings
4-14 Just A Minute
4-17 The Silence of the Lemmings - Disagree. My first attempt at solving this level just now (with zero memory of the solution I've used in the past) had 1:30 left on the clock. I can't see how the time limit really plays a part in this level.
4-24 Onward and Upward - Unsure. I had 30 seconds left on this one, but my solution did use a somewhat obscure trick. Anyone else have any thoughts on this one?
5-1 Its Hero Time - Unsure here. I believe there are a few solutions that would work if it weren't for the time limit, but perhaps it's better to backroute-fix those in other ways and remove the time limit?
5-6 Lemming About Town - Disagree. The time limit may be tight, but it doesn't really serve a purpose beyond annoyance.
5-12 Just A Minute (Part Two)
5-18 Scaling the Heights - This is one where I'd be in favor of loosening it up a little bit, maybe 15 seconds. But yes, overall it should stay.
5-24 Hello John Got A New Lemming
5-26 Oh No! Squish

[namida]

Regarding trap unfairness fix for "Worra Lorra Old Blocks"... do the traps actually need to be there? The only effective way to deal with them is to build up to the steel, so is there any reason that the steel block as a whole - as well as the traps it's hiding - couldn't simply be removed, and the builder count reduced by one?

Found another level that I think should keep the time limit - 4-18 "The Race Against Cliches".

[namida]

Here's a first draft NXP with lemming counts reduced, time limits removed and traps made visible (may have missed some, let me know if I have).

Lemming counts were determined by the 31~50 -> 30, 51~80 -> 40, 81 ~ 100 -> 50 rule, with manual adjustments on certain levels. In the two NES levels that had 14, I changed one of them to 10 and the other to 20. The decision for 10 in the case of "Hello John! Got A New Lemming?" was because, similarly to "With A Twist Of Lemming Please", it has mass-assigning floaters at the start.

In most cases, the save requirement was determined by the following rules:
1. If the original save requirement is 20% or less of the original lemming count, leave it as-is. (Eg: A level that required 10 out of 100 would now require 10 out of 50.)
2. If the original save requirement is between 21% and 80% of the original lemming count, keep it at the same percentage of the lemming count. (Eg: A level that required 50 out of 100 would now require 25 out of 50.)
3. If the original save requirement is over 80% of the original lemming count, keep the number of lemmings that may be lost the same. (Eg: A level that required 97 out of 100 would now require 47 out of 50.)
This worked very well for most levels, though a few cases (such as "Poor Wee Creatures") needed manual changing. In cases where it didn't seem that it would significantly affect the level, I've also adjusted them to nicer numbers in some cases (eg, a lot that came out 24 of 30 (from an original 40 of 50) I adjusted to either 20 or 25 required.

Time limits were kept for most of the levels on bsmith's list, as well as "The Race Against Cliches". In the case of "It's Hero Time", I made an adjustment to the layout that prevents the only solution I know of that fails solely due to time and cannot be tweaked to meet the time limit. I know of a few that are very borderline on time (to the point where tweaking them a bit can make them pass), so I decided to go with no time limit here (we might want to consider similar changes in other cases like this - the key factor being that some solutions can go either way depending on how optimized they are). In the case of "Scaling the Heights", I added an extra 20 seconds.

I've also switched all the Xmas levels to Snow levels. I kept this in a different commit than the other fixes, so it can easily be changed back if we decide that way.

The order still remains unchanged.

Let me know if I've missed any hidden traps, or if there's lemming counts / save requirements / time limits that need further adjusting (as well as more input on the disputed cases for time limits).

[Proxima]

Well, I think we need to slow down again. Having got a final level selection, after taking so long, is great and feels like we've really gotten things moving, but we still need to discuss changes before implementing them. In this case, you've barely allowed any time for people to chime in on whether we should reduce lemming counts and remove time limits at all, never mind discuss which levels.

Right now, I'm looking over the previous NXP to compile statistics on lemming counts and tileset usage, so that I can make a post with informed views. This will take some time.

In the meantime, here are the statistics for lemming counts in Rank 1 only:

1 - 1 level
10 - 4 levels
14 - 1 level
20 - 1 level
40 - 1 level
50 - 12 levels
60 - 2 levels (including LEMTRIS, which we've considered up-ranking)
80 - 3 levels
100 - 5 levels

It follows that 50 can be seen as a kind of "default" value that's the most commonly chosen when there's no reason to choose any particular value. (It remains to be seen whether this will persist over the whole pack.) So reducing the lemming counts by formula will result in another value, most likely 25 or 30, becoming the most common and being seen as the default. That's something we should bear in mind.

[Proxima]

Okay, my thoughts.

Firstly, I'm not sure about the whole idea of "NeoLemmix conventions", because it's never really been made clear what these are -- namida's preferences as NL's owner; an overview of what's actually produced by the community; or community-agreed guidelines for new content? If it's the last, then there ought to be a discussion (separately from the Redux pack) of whether the community actually does agree on some of the guidelines, including reduced lemming counts. So far, all I know is that namida and Nepster are in favour, IchoTolot is against (he has said he likes seeing crowds of lemmings walk to the exit); and a 2-1 majority is hardly conclusive of anything. (I don't count Simon's view as known, since the reduction of lix counts in D Lix is a separate issue, resulting from the lack of player-controlled release rate.)

Anyway, I've looked over the 150 levels we've decided to include, with the following results:

<10 - 15 levels
10 - 6 levels
20 - 9 levels
50 - 54 levels
60 - 8 levels
80 - 17 levels
100 - 25 levels
Intermediate values - 16 levels in total

In short, there are "peaks" at 50, 80 and 100, with minor peaks at 20 and 60, other values being rare. Namida's proposal would result in similar peaks at 30, 40 and 50. The alternative of halving lemming counts would be very similar, but peaks would be at 25, 40 and 50, and the 60-lemming levels would retain their distinct identity as a 30-lemming peak instead of joining the 40-lemming peak.

However, there are two disadvantages to the halving system. 25 is an odd number, so save requirements would be a bit more awkward. There are no levels in the set with 25 lemmings pre-reduction, so aesthetically it might seem weird to suddenly make this the most common value. (Or maybe this is a good thing, as it makes a clean separation between the old and new systems?)

So, my vote is to go with namida's system, but only if the community agrees that reducing lemming counts is a good idea.

One more level where I'd suggest keeping the original lemming count is "Patience". It's the first level with RR 99, and this is made a lot less stressful for the player by the fact that you can lose as many as 40 lemmings.

* * *

I haven't looked at the time limits issue yet. Maybe we should concentrate on one issue at a time so that each can get fully discussed?

* * *

Regarding the Genesis/ONML levels, I counted how many levels use each tileset:

Dirt - 9
Pillar - 23
Marble - 29
Crystal - 13
Fire - 17
Bubble - 6
Brick - 26 (interestingly, there are very few Brick levels in the first two ranks)
Rock - 7
Snow - 15 (including Xmas)

There are nine levels in ONML that have a Genesis clone, and the Redux pack retains six of them:

Dolly Dimple (Brick / Fire)
The Stack (Snow / Crystal)
And now, the end is near (Brick / Pillar)
ROCKY VI (Rock / Dirt)
Time waits for no lemming (Brick / Marble)
Worra load of old blocks! (Brick / Marble)

So, except for "Dolly Dimple", in every case the choice is between two styles that are very close in usage count. And in the case of "Dolly Dimple", the principle of selecting the less used style would actually favour Fire, not Brick. However, Fire is still the fourth most used style, so I wouldn't weight this consideration very highly.

In short, I think we should select on an individual basis, prioritising which version of the level looks better rather than which style is most used.

[Nepster]

Although I am in favor of reducing the number of lemmings, I don't agree with those blanket reductions based on just their original numbers. Here are some reasons:
- Some reductions may add backroutes, e.g. in "No added colors and lemmings".
- Some reductions may prevent some solutions, e.g. in "I have a cunning plan".
- In some levels, the number of lemmings in the hatch after finishing the route to the exit might still be considerable.
- Some reductions may now allow to ignore one or more hatches, where previously lemmings from all hatches have to be saved.
(Note that I haven't looked at namida's version whether the last one occurs or not.)

I just played through the whole Redux pack in the version namida attached to post #253. Here is a list of lemmings number, that I would personally change, together with the number of lemmings spawned after I finished building the route to the exit. The numbers are displayed as "save requirement / total number of lemmings".

Big list (click to show/hide)

Fun  3: 5/20 instead of 5/50
Fun  5: 5/20 instead of 5/50
Fun  6: 5/20 instead of 10/50
Fun  7: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun  8: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun  9: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 10: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 11: 15/20 instead of 75/80
Fun 12: 30/40 instead of 50/60
Fun 13: 18/20 instead of 48/50 (spawns all)
Fun 14: 12/20 or 22/30 instead of 42/50
Fun 15: 20/50 instead of 20/100 (allow at least 20 lems to die)
Fun 16: 30/50 instead of 80/100 (spawns all)
Fun 18: 15/30 instead of 60/100
Fun 19: 10/20 instead of 25/50
Fun 20: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~30)
Fun 21: 29/30 instead of 99/100
Fun 23: 15/20 instead of 75/80
Fun 24: 20/30 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~40)
Fun 25: 16/20 instead of 56/60 (spawns ~30)
Fun 27: 20/20 instead of 40/40 (spawns ~25)
Fun 28: 20/30 instead of 90/100

Tricky  2: 30/50 instead of 80/100 (spawns ~50)
Tricky  4: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (why need any more??)
Tricky  6: 20/20 instead of 50/50
Tricky  8: 10/10 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~7)
Tricky 10: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Tricky 11: 60/60 instead of 100/100 (one solution requires ~50 lemmings)
Tricky 12: 15/20 or 20/25 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~25)
Tricky 14: 15/20 or 25/30 instead of 75/80 (spawns ~40)
Tricky 15: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~25)
Tricky 16: 20/30 instead of 70/80 (spawns all)
Tricky 17: 10/20 or 20/30 instead of 50/60 (spawns ~40 until digging)
Tricky 21: 20/30 instead of 90/100 (spawns ~35)
Tricky 23: 33/40 instead of 53/60 (spawns ~10, but needs more lems to avoid saving only some of the hatches)
Tricky 24: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~30)
Tricky 25: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~15)
Tricky 26: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~25)
Tricky 27: 20/30 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~35)
Tricky 30: 40/50 instead of 90/100 (spawns ~20, but needs more lems to avoid saving only some of the hatches)

Wild  1: 20/30 instead of 90/100 (spawns ~65)
Wild  2: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~15)
Wild  5: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~25)
Wild  8:  5/30 instead of 25/50 (spawns ~25, but need 25 to lose)
Wild  9:  5/10 instead of 45/50 (spawns ~7)
Wild 10: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~25)
Wild 11: 19/20 instead of 99/100 (spawns ~20)
Wild 12: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~40)
Wild 14: 29/30 instead of 49/50 (spawns ~25)
Wild 16: 30/50 instead of 80/100 (spawns all)
Wild 17: 18/20 instead of 58/60 (spawns ~40)
Wild 18: 90/90 instead of 100/100 (to fill the upper loop completely)
Wild 20: 19/20 instead of 49/50 (needs last lemming)
Wild 22: 17/20 instead of 47/50 (spawns ~10)
Wild 26: 29/30 instead of 99/100 (spawns ~60)
Wild 27: 14/20 instead of 44/50 (spawns ~20)
Wild 28: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Wild 29: 18/20 instead of 48/50 (spawns ~40)

Mayhem  1: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem  2: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem  3: 20/20 instead of 100/100 (spawns ~60)
Mayhem  4: 20/20 instead of 75/75 (spawns all)
Mayhem  5: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~20)
Mayhem  6: 30/30 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem  7: 20/20 instead of 70/70 (spawns ~50)
Mayhem  9: 10/20 instead of 40/50 (spawns all)
Mayhem 10: 10/20 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 11: 16/20 instead of 76/80 (spawns ~20)
Mayhem 12: 20/20 instead of 85/85 (needs last lemming)
Mayhem 13: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~20 without RR change)
Mayhem 15: 20/20 instead of 100/100 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 16: 20/30 instead of 85/100 (spawns all)
Mayhem 17: 20/30 instead of 40/50 (spawns ~20)
Mayhem 19: 15/15 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~12)
Mayhem 20: 13/40 instead of 83/100 (spawns ~40)
Mayhem 21: 10/20 instead of 40/50 (spawns all)
Mayhem 22: 18/30 instead of 48/60 (spawns ~10)
Mayhem 23: 19/20 instead of 49/50 (spawns ~30)
Mayhem 24: 15/20 instead of 75/80 (spawns ~40). I guess this reduction allows saving one more lemmings than in the original version by a more precise version of the standard solution.
Mayhem 26:  9/10 instead of 29/30 (spawns ~10)
Mayhem 28: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns all)
Mayhem 29: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~35)
Mayhem 30: 20/50 instead of 70/100 (spawns ~40)

Havoc  4: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns all)
Havoc  5: 19/20 instead of 79/80 (spawns ~30)
Havoc  6: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns all)
Havoc  8: 20/40 instead of 60/80 (spawns all)
Havoc  9: 20/20 instead of 60/60 (spawns ~30)
Havoc 10:  8/10 instead of 68/70 (spawns ~10)
Havoc 13: 19/20 instead of 49/50 (spawns ~30)
Havoc 14:  6/10 instead of 46/50 (spawns ~6)
Havoc 15: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns ~20)
Havoc 17: 20/20 instead of 60/60
Havoc 18: 15/20 instead of 45/50 (spawns all)
Havoc 19:  9/10 instead of 29/30 (spawns ~15)
Havoc 20: 20/20 instead of 100/100 (spawns all)
Havoc 21: unsure whether to change at all, perhaps to 34/40?
Havoc 22: 19/20 instead of 49/60 (spawns ~25)
Havoc 23: 28/30 instead of 68/70 (spawns all, but 30 are sufficient to fill to crowd area)
Havoc 25: 30/30 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~40)
Havoc 26: 20/20 instead of 80/80 (spawns ~8)
Havoc 28: 59/60 instead of 99/100 (spawns ~50)
Havoc 29: 20/40 instead of 80/100 (spawns 90)
Havoc 30: 20/20 instead of 50/50 (spawns all)

And now regarding time limits. I generally would remove even more time limits than namida:

Another big list (click to show/hide)

Tricky 8 "Just A Quicky": If we reduce the number of lemmings, then the current time limit does not pose any problems at all. Can anyone show me solutions that are only possible if we remove this time limit? If not, then I prefer to remove the time limit here.
Tricky 28 "Speed Trap": I agree - keep this time limit.
Wild 15 "No Time for a Detour": I agree - keep this time limit.
Wild 21 "Four Play": I agree - keep this time limit.
Mayhem 8 "Five Alive": I don't see any way to solve the level using more than one minute. So remove the time limit.
Mayhem 13 "Synchronized Lemmings": I agree - keep this time limit.
Mayhem 14 "Just A Minute": I agree - keep this time limit.
Mayhem 17 "The Silence of the Lemmings": I, too, don't know what function the time limit has in this level. So I vote to remove.
Mayhem 18 "The race against cliches": I would add this to the list of levels that keep their time limit. Otherwise there is no race at all in this level: The top lemming finishes his work and then the bottom lemmings start...
Mayhem 24 "Onward and Upward": I don't see any reason to keep the time limit here, especially if we reduce the number of lemmings so that the player doesn't has to set the RR to 99. My solution doesn't use any obscure tricks.
Havoc 1 "Its Hero Time": I can see a few additional ways to solve the level without the time limit. Fixing all those would be a major task. Moreover I always thought the title of this level to have a double meaning, one referring to the very tight time limit. So keep this time limit.
Havoc 6 "Lemming About Town": Remove the time limit here. I don't know any reason to keep it.
Havoc 12 "Just A Minute (Part Two)": I agree - keep this time limit.
Havoc 18 "Scaling the Heights": I had roughly one minute left on the clock and don't know of any solutions requiring more time than given. So what is the reason the time limit should stay?
Havoc 24 "Hello John Got A New Lemming": The time limit is very tight, but what function does it serve beyond anoying the player? I vote for removing this time limit.
Havoc 26 "Oh No! Squish": This is another level where reducing the number of lemmings makes the time limit pointless. Currently one has to think about setting the RR to 99 early enough. But is there any solution that requires more time than the given two minutes?

Finally some general comments and questions:
- Fun 9 has lots of space on the left-hand side and the whole playing are is a single screen on the right edge. Should we crop the level a bit?
- Fun 22 has a screen start at the right edge, away from the hatch and exit. This should be changed. Moreover I would prefer enlarging the OWWs to cover the whole terrain piece and not only the middle part. This should just be an aesthetic change.
- Tricky 17 has a wrong screen start position, too.
- Tricky 28: Same problem with the screen start position.
- Havoc 17: Is is intended that one can start digging directly from the starting platform?
- Havoc 22: Give another builder to adapt to stricter builder terrain checks? Currently the level is solvable, but I don't know any nice and elegant solution.
- Havoc 24: Why the deadly fall out of both hatches? What do you think about moving them down and giving only one floater?
- Havoc 30: Has anyone solved this level in NeoLemmix? My old solution with building from the basher tunnel into the miner tunnel no longer works.
- There are a lot of levels where either the hatch or the exit are not set to no-overwrite, e.g. Fun 30. This creates problems when one wants to build in that area.

[bsmith]

I was just thinking of doing what Nepster did, playing the levels and seeing how many lemmings are spawned when I am effectively done.  I hope to get through all the levels through the weekend, then I can post my numbers and see how close I am to Nepster.

[Proxima]

In that case we should definitely postpone the question of lemming counts until people have had more time to play through the pack.

Meanwhile, I've looked through to decide how I feel about time limits. Other than the 16 levels already mentioned, I don't see any that would benefit from retaining a time limit, so I think we can concentrate on just those 16.

These levels should definitely keep the time limit, as it's the main point of the level: "No time for a detour", "Four Play", "Synchronized Lemming", "Just a Minute" (both parts), "The race against cliches".

All other levels could do without one. However, some levels certainly had a short time limit chosen for effect. I believe "It's hero time" is one of these, rather than the time limit being intentionally chosen to prevent backroutes (although it's true that the time limit does prevent some solutions that would otherwise work).

My inclination is to keep one-minute time limits (Speed Trap, Five Alive, It's hero time) and time limits that provide a psychological effect of being pressed for time (Scaling the Heights, Hello John). On these levels, it feels that the time limit should not be much annoyance, as it's hard to carry out the correct solution without being in time.

(Note that the title of "Speed Trap" seems not to refer to the time limit, but to having to hurry at the start to keep the crowd under control. So I don't think this is a level where the time limit is important to keep, though I would prefer to keep it.)

There are several 2-minute levels in the pack: Just a Quicky, Twins, Let's get together, The Lemming Funhouse, Watch right or left (Part 2), Scaling the Heights, Oh No! Squish, I am A. T. On most of these, the level actually requires considerably less time so the time limit doesn't really do anything. (This is true of Just a Quicky even with its original lemming count.)

The title of "Just a Quicky" does suggest a short time limit, so an alternative would be to reduce it to one minute. This wouldn't really make it any harder (especially with a reduced lemming count) and it would be a good level for a new player's first introduction to time limits.

Spoilers for ONWARD AND UPWARD:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The "obscure trick" namida referred to is to send up two climbers close together, and bash the thin pole with the first one, starting a step back so its first stroke ends in the middle of the pole, turning the other climber. On the original game, this is the only way to achieve lose-3 (not possible on NL since it also uses the left edge of the level). This trick isn't necessary to finish in time, although without using the trick, I was down to the last second. I don't think the intention was to require this trick, so I would prefer to remove the time limit.

[namida]

Screen start issues should be fixed in the newer version.

Regarding that we might be moving too fast - these changes can easily be reverted if need be. Likewise, if any further cases need manual adjustment rather than the defaults, that can be done too.

[namida]

Going to have a proper look through the feedback now:

One more level where I'd suggest keeping the original lemming count is "Patience". It's the first level with RR 99, and this is made a lot less stressful for the player by the fact that you can lose as many as 40 lemmings.

Not completely against this, but I think lose 20 is still very generous. Personally, on my first playthrough, I didn't find this level stressful at all - and this was on the Sega Master System version, where this level only allows losing 10 lemmings (and yes, unlike some other levels (even including this level's repeat), this level remains RR99 on that version). But yeah - I'm okay to go either way on this one.

I haven't looked at the time limits issue yet. Maybe we should concentrate on one issue at a time so that each can get fully discussed?

Removal of time limits is, beyond any doubt, an established NL convention. So it'd be really weird not to do so for this pack. The reason I did them at the same time was because, with it being automated - as well as needing a manual looking through to reverse some cases - it was much easier to do everything in one go to come up with a starting point, from which any individual cases can be reverted as nessecary. (If we do decide against these changes altogether - which is unlikely for the "no hidden traps" or "remove unneeded time limits", maybe a bit more debatable for the "reduce lemming counts" - I can just throw together another bit of code to reverse them.)

(regarding styles)

Hm, that changes things then. We may indeed want to consider the Genesis variants of these levels. The only counter-argument I could think of is that the ONML variants may be a bit more recognizable to some people.

- Some reductions may add backroutes, e.g. in "No added colors and lemmings".
- Some reductions may prevent some solutions, e.g. in "I have a cunning plan".
- In some levels, the number of lemmings in the hatch after finishing the route to the exit might still be considerable.
- Some reductions may now allow to ignore one or more hatches, where previously lemmings from all hatches have to be saved.

We can always reverse the count reduction (or even just reduce it by a lesser amount) on levels where it has these issues.
However, I'd be interested to know which solutions you're referring to in the first two points?
For "No Added Colors Or Lemmings", the obvious one may be to instant RR99, bash with the earliest lemming that would result in all lemmings still turning around, then build to cross the gap before the crowd gets back. The most optimal execution of this I can manage on the current version of the level (30 lemmings) still ends up with 5 lemmings falling down. You can reduce this to four by using the usual trick for the end of that level, or to three by simply using the now-spare climbers to delay some of the crowd lemmings, but neither is enough to complete the level.
For "I Have A Cunning Plan", I assume you're referring to the solution using the Medi 23 trick? This solution requires at least 42 lemmings; the modified-lemming-count version of this level has 50.

[namida]

- Fun 9 has lots of space on the left-hand side and the whole playing are is a single screen on the right edge. Should we crop the level a bit?

I'm okay either way on this one. What does everyone else think?

- Havoc 17: Is is intended that one can start digging directly from the starting platform?

Not possible on the DOS / Lemmix version (and thus presumably not Amiga either), so this probably should be fixed.

- Havoc 22: Give another builder to adapt to stricter builder terrain checks? Currently the level is solvable, but I don't know any nice and elegant solution.

When it was first brought up that the direct conversion of this level was impossible, I considered the options to make it possible again, and IIRC I found that an extra builder either made it too easy or added a backroute, so I opted for an extra basher instead.

- Havoc 24: Why the deadly fall out of both hatches? What do you think about moving them down and giving only one floater?

Only read if you've solved the level. (click to show/hide)

I thought that too at first. But after I solved the level, I realised that only giving one floater would make the solution a bit less hidden. By requiring them all at the start, it doesn't imply "the worker needs a floater at some point", which hides the solution a bit more.

The time limit here actually works similarly - it prevents a solution where you let the worker continue going then dig down to the left-exit, thus penalizing the player if they bash the OWW at the top too early. This is more subtle, but similar to, how the one at the bottom also shouldn't be bashed too early.

- Havoc 30: Has anyone solved this level in NeoLemmix? My old solution with building from the basher tunnel into the miner tunnel no longer works.

Can confirm it's solvable on V10.13.16 exps, haven't tested on stable but I doubt any of the changes will affect this level.

- There are a lot of levels where either the hatch or the exit are not set to no-overwrite, e.g. Fun 30. This creates problems when one wants to build in that area.

Yes, this should be fixed.

(Spoilery stuff about Onward And Upward)

I actually couldn't think of any other way to solve the level, to be honest.



By the way, to avoid confusion (especially if we change the order later) we may want to either include titles when referring to levels, or refer to them by their original game positions rather than Redux positions. Former is probably a bit more convenient while working on Redux.

[Proxima]

Removal of time limits is, beyond any doubt, an established NL convention. So it'd be really weird not to do so for this pack.

I know; but my point was that (as you can see above) there's still a lot to discuss on this issue, and this is made harder if we're discussing several issues at once so that we have to look a long way back in the topic for everyone's thoughts on a particular issue. Anyhow, I've given my thoughts on time limits now, so I'll wait to see if we reach a consensus.

Regarding the particular levels that have been mentioned:

Snuggle up to a lemming: I would favour mobius' suggestion of moving the exit so as to use more of the level area. If not, then I believe we should keep the decorative terrain, as the original games make good use of decorative terrain to produce memorable levels. (We are keeping the decorative terrain in "Turn around young lemmings", aren't we? [Goes to check] Yes.)

Steel Block Party: Certainly, this should be fixed, as it trivialises the level.

Hello John: Agreed with namida's reasoning for keeping the splat start.

ONWARD AND UPWARD: The other solution is to send up two climbers, block one on the thin pillar to turn the other, also block the front lemming of the crowd. This feels more intended, as it uses every given skill except the second basher. (I was wrong about lose-3 being impossible on NL; you do lose the climber-miner when he splats after climbing the left wall, but this is still lose-3. So that could be a talisman.)

No added colors: Even if the backroute doesn't work with 30 lemmings, the player is more likely to waste time attempting it, so I would keep the original lemming count for that reason.

One more level to keep the original lemming count: The gate trap lemmings. It feels like having to avoid the stragglers from the left hatch splatting in the digger pit was intended to be part of the level.

* * *

As for the confusion when referring to levels by rank and number, this is going to remain an issue when the pack is published, so we should come up with unique rank names for Redux, preferably a system of adjectives gradually increasing in intensity like the original games, but different from any rating names already used.

My suggestions: Gentle, Quirky, Zany, Manic, Lunatic. "Quirky" has been used by the Lix pack, but no NL content.

[Nepster]

For "No Added Colors Or Lemmings", the obvious one may be to instant RR99, bash with the earliest lemming that would result in all lemmings still turning around, then build to cross the gap before the crowd gets back. The most optimal execution of this I can manage on the current version of the level (30 lemmings) still ends up with 5 lemmings falling down. You can reduce this to four by using the usual trick for the end of that level, or to three by simply using the now-spare climbers to delay some of the crowd lemmings, but neither is enough to complete the level.

Yes, I thought one could save even more lemmings this way. Note however that delaying two lemmings by letting them climb on the left-hand side allows even saving 27 lemmings.
Anyway all of this means that while the backroute does not quite work, this is by no means obvious: It would work if the gap was one pixel smaller or if one could delay three more lemmings. So I would really prefer to keep the original 50 lemmings just to make it obvious from the very beginning that this appraoch won't work.
Edit: Proxima was faster

For "I Have A Cunning Plan", I assume you're referring to the solution using the Medi 23 trick? This solution requires at least 42 lemmings; the modified-lemming-count version of this level has 50.

Yes, I refer to the Medi 23 trick, assuming this means

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

blocking directly below the hatch and then free the blocker with a newly spawned lemming.

Again I would give a little bit more lemmings than the bare minimum, so that less experienced players have no problem executing this solution. As the idea is by no means obvious, I think we should honor them for the idea and not make the execution harder than necessary. So I still vote for 60 instead of 50 lemmings, especially as the level has RR99, i.e. becomes only 3 seconds longer with this change.

- Havoc 24 "Hello John": Why the deadly fall out of both hatches? What do you think about moving them down and giving only one floater?

Only read if you've solved the level. (click to show/hide)

I thought that too at first. But after I solved the level, I realised that only giving one floater would make the solution a bit less hidden. By requiring them all at the start, it doesn't imply "the worker needs a floater at some point", which hides the solution a bit more.

The time limit here actually works similarly - it prevents a solution where you let the worker continue going then dig down to the left-exit, thus penalizing the player if they bash the OWW at the top too early. This is more subtle, but similar to, how the one at the bottom also shouldn't be bashed too early.

Mild spoilers (click to show/hide)

I don't think giving only one floater is really a big hint.
Regarding the time limit: Fair enough that it prevents one solution, but with the current time limit I cannot first assign all the floaters and then start with the climber, because for this I need at least 5 seconds more. So I already have to assign the climber while lemmings are still spawning, which I dislike. And it prevents the other solution only barely. I attached the screenshot of the last frame when I tried (an optimized version) of the alternative approach.
So overall I am more in favor of changing the level slightly in other ways to make sure that the alternatice approach doesn't work (e.g. removing one basher and one digger from the skill set).

- Havoc 30 "Lemming's Ark": Has anyone solved this level in NeoLemmix? My old solution with building from the basher tunnel into the miner tunnel no longer works.

Can confirm it's solvable on V10.13.16 exps, haven't tested on stable but I doubt any of the changes will affect this level.

Ok, I managed to solve the current level in the stable version, but...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The basher needs to be placed at exactly the correct height to prevent bashing further than one block. So I would stongly suggest enlarging the thin horizontal gap to 4 pixels height instead of only 2 pixels.

[namida]

Snuggle up to a lemming: I would favour mobius' suggestion of moving the exit so as to use more of the level area. If not, then I believe we should keep the decorative terrain, as the original games make good use of decorative terrain to produce memorable levels. (We are keeping the decorative terrain in "Turn around young lemmings", aren't we? [Goes to check] Yes.)

Both of these levels have quite an excessive amount of it. I would not be opposed to (but nor do I particularly strongly favor) removing it in both. However, I would think it was weird if we were to remove it in one but not the other.

No added colors: Even if the backroute doesn't work with 30 lemmings, the player is more likely to waste time attempting it, so I would keep the original lemming count for that reason.

This makes sense.

One more level to keep the original lemming count: The gate trap lemmings. It feels like having to avoid the stragglers from the left hatch splatting in the digger pit was intended to be part of the level.

Fair enough.

Again I would give a little bit more lemmings than the bare minimum, so that less experienced players have no problem executing this solution. As the idea is by no means obvious, I think we should honor them for the idea and not make the execution harder than necessary. So I still vote for 60 instead of 50 lemmings, especially as the level has RR99, i.e. becomes only 3 seconds longer with this change.

60 doesn't make it much less pressure than 50, but I see your point. So let's change this one back to 100. (I guess 75 could also work, but this is a somewhat unusual number of lemmings to have - though arguably, to a new player, less weird than 80.)

[bsmith]

I have gotten most of the way through another playthrough of the pack (the version before namida made his proposed lemmings count adjustments).

Often by the time I had effectively completed my solution I either have a bunch of lemmings yet to come out or they have already all come out, very few levels were close.  So my thought is for any level with at most 20 lemmings leave it alone.  For levels with more than 20 lemmings reduce the count by cutting in half the excess over 20 (equivalently cut the total in half and add 10).

Exceptions I would make to this rule to keep the original count: Patience, I Have a Cunning Plan, Cascade, No Time for a Detour, Just a Minute, It's Hero Time, Which One are You Trying to Get, Just a Minute Part 2.  All these levels seem to already have been mentioned already to keep the original counts, plus a few more I don't object to.

[Dullstar]

I have gotten most of the way through another playthrough of the pack (the version before namida made his proposed lemmings count adjustments).

Often by the time I had effectively completed my solution I either have a bunch of lemmings yet to come out or they have already all come out, very few levels were close.  So my thought is for any level with at most 20 lemmings leave it alone.  For levels with more than 20 lemmings reduce the count by cutting in half the excess over 20 (equivalently cut the total in half and add 10).

Exceptions I would make to this rule to keep the original count: Patience, I Have a Cunning Plan, Cascade, No Time for a Detour, Just a Minute, It's Hero Time, Which One are You Trying to Get, Just a Minute Part 2.  All these levels seem to already have been mentioned already to keep the original counts, plus a few more I don't object to.

I like this idea for setting the lemming counts, but I would also add a step to it:

If 20 lemmings or less:
    do nothing
Otherwise:
    1/2 number of lemmings
    add 10
    round to nearest 5

(note: I checked to make sure that cutting the total in half and adding 10 was equivalent to cutting in half the excess over 20, which it is)

Proof in case that seems a bit odd like it did to me when I first read that line (click to show/hide)

Cutting in half the excess over 20 could be written this way:
Total Lemmings = 20 + ((number of lemmings - 20)/2)

Rewriting the fraction:
Total Lemmings = 20 + ((number of lemmings/2) - 20/2)

Simplify
Total Lemmings = 20 + (number of lemmings/2) - 10
Total Lemmings = 10 + (number of lemmings/2)

[Proxima]

As the most common lemming counts are 50, 80 and 100, the proposed "half + 10" would make the most common values 35, 50, 60. This has two disadvantages: firstly, 35 is a less appealing number than 25, 30 or 40. It's still a round number, since it ends in 5, but being 5 x 7, it's less comfortable and familiar than the numbers made up of only the primes 2, 3 and 5. Secondly, 60 is still quite a lot of lemmings, and I would rather keep to a maximum of 50, except for the few levels we've decided should keep their original count. (Nepster's list agrees -- 50 is the maximum he uses, with one exception, "Triple Trouble". For that level, it makes sense to use a multiple of 3, since the NL version has ABCABC window ordering.)

[Proxima]

So, we had two weeks without any posts; I think we're not going to get much more input and we should push towards final decisions on these issues, preferably one at a time so good points about one issue don't get lost in the discussion of another. Since the last few posts have been about the lemming count issue, how about we tackle that one first? (I'm not trying to take over the leadership role, but I think someone needs to provide a push to keep this moving, so it may sound like that at times.)

Of the five who've input on the issue, everyone is in favour of reductions, so we can go ahead with that. The biggest question is whether to make the initial reductions on the basis of original lemming counts (namida's proposal), or number spawned after building the route (Nepster's proposal); either way there will be individual exceptions.

So far, only Nepster is in favour of the second alternative, and the only reasons he's given amount to "there will need to be individual exceptions", which isn't really an argument either way for which general method to choose.

I strongly favour the first general method, for the following reasons:
* It's more faithful to the original developers' intentions. They chose to work with a maximum of 100 lemmings, to use exactly that number on certain levels, and to use a smaller number on certain other levels. We'd be reducing the maximum to 50 but keeping the relative counts the same (with particular exceptions where necessary).
* Always spawning exactly as many lemmings as can come out in the time taken to build the route feels much too neat and clinical. True, this is what we're doing in the Lix pack, but that's because of a historical accident that doesn't apply to Lemmings. The Lix pack was designed, in its entirety, for an engine that supported variable release rate; this support was then removed. It's been firmly decided that variable release rate is staying in NL.
* Time taken to build the route is variable, as there are often multiple routes. For instance, on "Doomsday", Nepster's proposal for a drastic reduction in lemming count is probably based on a short route by bombing through the one-way wall. But I think we can trust that a player able to come up with an advanced tactic like that also knows how to change the release rate!

(While writing this post, I've played through a lot of the levels where namida's and Nepster's recommendations differ, and I think several of them may be due to Nepster using short routes that newer players wouldn't be expected to find. Others are, quite frankly, baffling; for instance, without steel glitches I can't see any way to do "The Far Side" quickly enough that namida's 40/40 would be a problem.)

So, I think we should keep namida's lemming counts in general (rather than the proposed "half + 10" alternative; I've given my reasons for this in the above post). But there are two groups of levels that should be exceptions: those that need to keep their original count (already discussed), and those where namida's count is much higher than the number spawned while building the route. Also, for the beginning of the pack, where 10 and 30 are the only lemming counts appearing, I prefer to change this to 10 and 20.

So, here's my list of suggested lemming counts, together with namida's for comparison, and Nepster's if it differs from mine. For all levels not listed, I support keeping the count produced by namida's formula:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tailor-made for blockers: 5/20 (n: 5/30)
You need bashers this time: 5/20 (n: 5/30)
A task for blockers and bombers: 5/20 (n: 10/30)
Builders will help you here: 10/20 (n: 15/30)
All 3 Tame levels: 10/20 (n: 15/30)
A Block from Home: 15/20 (n: 35/40)
Patience: keep original count
Rainbow Island: 29/30 (n: 49/50)

I have a cunning plan: keep original count
Go for it!: keep original count
Cascade: keep original count

Don't leave any Lemmings: 5/30 (n: 15/30)
Acrophobia: 24/25 (n: 49/50; Ne: 19/20)
No time for a detour: keep original count

With a twist of lemming please: 10/10 (n: 30/30, Ne: 20/20)
The gate trap Lemmings: keep original count
Just a Minute...: keep original count
Jump down!: 30/30 (n: 50/50; Ne: 20/20)
It's all a matter of timing: 15/15 (n: 40/40)
No hurry, Relax.: 13/30 (n: 33/50, Ne: 13/40 -- but this must be a typo as lose-27 allows backroutes)
Down the tube: 19/20 (n: 29/30, Ne: 9/10)

No added colors or Lemmings: keep original count
Anxiety: Just noting this as a level where Nepster's proposal (20/20) is definitely too low as it prevents some good solutions
The Lemming Funhouse: 18/20 (n: 38/40, Ne: 8/10)
Just a Minute (Part Two): keep original count
Watch right or left (Part two): 16/20 (n: 26/30, Ne: 6/10)
Steel Block Party: 20/20 (n: 40/40)
Got anything... Lemmingy?: 19/20 (n: 29/30, Ne: 9/10)
Lemmy in the cold, cold ground: 30/30 (n: 40/40)
Triple Trouble: 59/60 (n: 49/50)

[Nepster]

Assuming Proxima's changes have made to namida's new lemming counts, I still have a few requests for changes, but mostly concerning the save requirements. Only 5 levels where I suggest further reductions, and 2 levels where I want to have more lemmings.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A Beast of a Level (Fun 16): Save requirement of 30/50, instead of 40/50, because we want to allow the player to use all bombers/blockers.
Darkness of the Royal family (Fun 24): Save requirement of 20/30, instead of 25/30. If one does not block at the beginning, the 5 additional lemmings that one may lose make a great difference.
Just A Quicky (Tricky 8): 40 lemmings for this incredibly short level sill feels way too much, especially with the low RR 1. Is there any solution that isn't finished when the 20th lemming appears?
Compression Method 1 (Tricky 22): First of all I would keep the original lemming count of 30/50, instead of 20/30, unless someone can give me a reason for the reduced lemming count? Secondly I disagree with terrain changes here, because this opens a new solution: Dig down below the left-most hatch until the digger hits the steel, then collect the lemmings there and finally free them with another basher. I feel that whatever terrain change we make, freeing the lemmings from the digger hole with the basher should not be possible.
No choice but to follow them (Tricky 25): With the low RR10 and short solution, I still prefer a slightly lower lemming count.
Don't leave any lemmings (Wild 8): Save requirement of 5/30, instead of 15/30. This is a bomber level and we should allow the same amount of bombers than the original version, which is 25.
Electric Circuit (Wild 18): Here I prefer to have more lemmings, because we should not have a gap in the lemmings train in the upper loop. So either keep the original count, or use 80/80.
Worra load of old blocks (Wild 27): I distinctly remember squisher traps in this level! Where have they gone?
AAARRRGGGGHHH! (Mayhem 6): Is there any solution where the path to the exit isn't finished by the 21st lemming? If not, then why do we give 30(!) more lemmings in this level? I prefer 30/30 over 50/50.
Rocky Road (Mayhem 9): Save requirement of 20/30, instead of 25/30. Allowing to lose 10 lemmings makes it possible to use all blockers and then to pass one of the traps with a tight group of lemmings.
Synchronized Lemmings (Mayhem 13): Do we want to force players to set the RR to 99, or not? If not, then we have to reduce the lemming count again.
Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility (Mayhem 22): Is there any solution where the fath to the exit is not finished after 20 or even 10 lemmings? If not, then I would prefer a further reduction of the lemming count.
Down, along, up... in that order (Havoc 8): Save requirement of 20/40, instead of 30/40. One easily loses lemmings in that level.
Oh, no! Squish! (Havoc 26): Again the question: Any solution that is not yet finished after 10 lemmings? If not, then a reduction to at most 20 lemmings should be made.
Save Me! (Havoc 29): Save requirement of 30/50, instead of 40/50. There are many ways to kill lemmings, if one isn't careful. So allowing the original kill quota seems preferable.

[Proxima]

Replies to Nepster's comments:

A beast of a level: There are several more levels where the reduced lemming counts prevent using all bombers, e.g. the Tame levels. So either we should relax the save requirement consistently in all such levels, or reduce the number of bombers, or just accept that this is how things are. My preference is for the third option. It's not as though there's much temptation to use bombers on these levels, when there are much easier routes.
Darkness of the royal family: Agreed.
Just a Quicky: Agreed.
Compression Method 1: A very similar solution is possible on the original level; just bomb the digger to stop him going too far. So I don't see this as a major problem. (But yes, keep the original count here, since with RR 99 everyone comes out quickly. Or 30/40 to have a multiple of 4.)
No choice but to follow them: Sure, change this to 30/30.
Don't leave any lemmings: Already on my list
Electric circuit: Agreed, keep the original count for that reason.
Worra load of old blocks: Deciding whether to remove hidden traps, or keep them but make them visible, is one of the things on the current agenda. As I said, I think we should deal with the issues one at a time so they don't get in each other's way.
AAARRRGGGHHH!!!: Agreed, reduce to 30/30.
Rocky Road: Agreed.
Synchronised Lemming: As it's a 1-minute level, I feel that setting the RR to 99 at a good time was meant to be part of the level.
Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility: Yes, reduce to 18/30 (but no lower, since we don't want it to be possible to ignore one hatch).
Down, along, up. In that order: Agreed.
Oh No! Squish!: My solution finishes after 20 lemmings, not 10. As with "Synchronised Lemming", I think getting everyone out in time is meant to be part of the challenge, but I'm not completely against reducing it if others want to.
Save Me: Agreed.

[Proxima]

Sorry for being lazy earlier. Here's LEMTRIS updated to include the decorative terrain below the level.

[bsmith]

Okay, I looked at the levels in Proxima's and Nepster's lists.  Most of the changes I am fine with.  Otherwise I have the following thoughts:

The three Tame levels: If we reduce the counts to save 10/20 should we also reduce the skill counts to 10 of each? The builders only solution to Get a Little Extra Help is doable with just 10.

Beast of a Level: I agree with Nepster to use 30/50.

Don't Leave any Lemmings: This is a bomber level, but with no thick blocks of terrain that need many bombers to blast through.  Can we save 10/30 and reduce the skills to 20 of each? I can solve this level with just 8 of each, so reducing supplies from 30 to 20 should not be a major factor.

With a Twist of Lemming, Please: I know we want to reduce this count due to the mass assignment of floaters. I would have originally supported a low number like 10 or 15 but now I think 25 or 30 is better.  My reasoning is to play this level without changing the release rate and treat it like a multitasking challenge like AAARRRGGGHHH.  The 27th lemming appears just when I finish the route.  25-30 lemmings would also make for a talisman based on multitasking: Finish the level in 2 minutes without adjusting the release rate.

Down, along, up... in that order:  I'm okay with a more relaxed save requirement.  For a new player, figuring out and executing the staircase trick is enough of a challenge.

Oh No Squish:  In my opinion part of the challenge is the time limit and getting everyone through in that time, so keep the original count.

Save Me:  This is a level where I would keep the tighter 40/50 requirement proposed.  I always thought the lynchpin of the level was how to get two scouts out to the left side.

[Proxima]

Okay, given there is support for the idea of ensuring that (most) easy levels don't have more bombers than you can afford to lose, I suggest the following changes:

Tame levels: 10/20 and 10 of each, as bsmith suggested. This has the advantage that "Get a little extra help" builders-only becomes more of a puzzle and not just builder-spamming.

A Block from Home: 10/20 and 10 of each.
Keep your hair on Mr. Lemming: 20/30 and 10 of each.
Where do you see Lemmings?: keep as-is, 28/30 and 20 of each. The original level is lose-2 so we should respect that.
Lemmings in the attic: 20/30 and 10 of each, 50 builders. (This is still enough for a no-builders solve, if we want to make that a talisman.)
A Beast of a level: 30/50 as mentioned.
Let's be careful out there: Not sure, maybe 10/20 and 10 of each? This is one level where the normal (long way) solution involves a lot of waiting even though most lemmings are out by the time the route is built, so it might be an idea to reduce the numbers.
Doomsday: keep as-is, same as Where do you see Lemmings?
Rainbow Island: keep as-is, same reason.
A Spot of Bother: keep as-is, same reason.
CindyLand: 33/40 and 7 of each.
Turn around young lemmings: 35/50.
Don't leave any Lemmings: I agree that requiring 5/30 looks odd so I'm fine with making it 10/30 and 20 of each.

[bsmith]

I like this list of recommended changes.  The only level I disagree with is 'Let's be careful out there'.  The original is 25/50 with 20 of each, not enough to just float the required minimum to the exit.  Having 10/20 with 10 of everything would create that backroute.  15/30 or 20/40 with 10 of everything would be my recommendation, if we change the counts at all.

Also 'Let's be careful out there' has its harder brother later in the pack: 'Come on over to my place'.  This has 50/50 with a select skillset.  I suggest matching the number of lemmings released and making this one 30/30 if we use 15/30 for the easy version. 

Sidenote: while looking at these levels today I found a talisman idea for 'Come on over to my place': Don't use the floaters.

[Nepster]

I can agree with the proposed further changes.

Sidenote: while looking at these levels today I found a talisman idea for 'Come on over to my place': Don't use the floaters.

In my opinion the 2-builder solution makes for a more interesting talisman to this level.

[Proxima]

I'm not taking over leadership of this project, but namida has said it's okay for me to help with editing and building the NXP. I've designated this version 0.2.0 since two tasks are complete: selecting levels, and deciding on lemming counts / save requirements. Everything else is still up for further discussion -- which levels should have time limits; terrain changes; backroute fixes; level ordering.

As well as the changes we agreed on above, I've made these changes:

* Used my suggested rank names, since I proposed them a while ago and no-one has objected;
* Switched "Lemmings in the attic" with "CindyLand", and "LEMTRIS" with "Pillar talking";
* Fixed the typo "Fourms" on the title screen
* Relaxed save requirements on "MENACING" and "What an AWESOME level" to match the change to "A beast of a level";
* Since most N-of-each levels are now 10 rather than 20, I've changed "You live and Lem" to match. This simplifies the proposed talisman, "bombers and builders only" rather than "10 bombers, 10 builders only".
* Used my new version of "LEMTRIS" with decorative terrain.

Save Me is still 40/50 as we didn't agree on whether or not to change. Casting vote from namida, perhaps?

[namida]

I don't particularly see a huge problem with either. Lose-10 doesn't add much to the level, because generally, a solution that loses 10 is probably going to lose most (or all) lemmings anyway. But for the same reason, Lose-20 doesn't really come across as any different. I'll perhaps go with "keep it as lose-10" solely on the grounds of that there isn't much reason to make a special case for it.

[namida]

* Since most N-of-each levels are now 10 rather than 20, I've changed "You live and Lem" to match. This simplifies the proposed talisman, "bombers and builders only" rather than "10 bombers, 10 builders only".

And save 40 lemmings. It's a lot easier if you're allowed to lose 20 rather than 10. (Alternatively, the level as a whole could be made lose-10.)


I notice that on Gentle 22, the one way arrows don't quite cover the terrain they're on exactly. Is there a good reason for this? If not, it's probably something that should be fixed. (This may also hold true for other levels in some cases.)

Gentle 29 also has some graphical oddities (look at the alignment of the bricks of the platform the exit is on, compared to the wall next to it).

Sidenote: while looking at these levels today I found a talisman idea for 'Come on over to my place': Don't use the floaters.

In my opinion the 2-builder solution makes for a more interesting talisman to this level.

To be honest, it never occured to me that the floaters might serve any purpose in the intended solution until I saw the suggestion here. The 2 builders, on the other hand, is definitely worthy of being a Bronze talisman challenge IMO.

[Proxima]

The 2 builders [on "Come on over to my place"], on the other hand, is definitely worthy of being a Bronze talisman challenge IMO.

Bronze? But we could resolve this by making the talisman 1 builder, which is definitely worthy of Gold.

Anyhow, the next thing to be decided is time limits (which to retain; whether to change any). We've had a good amount of discussion on this already, so I'll just summarise what's been said so far.

Everyone is in favour of removing time limits on most levels. Only sixteen levels have been proposed as exceptions, to which I'll add one more, "Fall and no life (Part Two)". So we agree on removing the time limits for all levels other than those listed below. I'll list them in a rough order, from the ones where I most strongly favour keeping the time limit, to ones where I don't.

No time for a detour, Four Play, Synchronised Lemming, Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), The race against cliches -- On all these, the time limit is the main point of the level, and removing it makes the level trivial.

Oh No! Squish -- Time limit prevents a trivial solution, bashing under the entire level.

Speed Trap, Five Alive, It's hero time -- These all have 1 minute. I believe this is a clear signal that the developers intended these to be low-time-limit levels, and we should respect that, regardless of whether infinite time would allow a larger set of solutions; e.g. on Five Alive it's almost certainly impossible to keep the level playing longer than a minute in any case. (Nepster wants to keep the time limit on Speed Trap and It's hero time; namida has proposed a terrain change to It's hero time that prevents an athlete going up the right side of the level, which the time limit also prevents.)

(Nepster cut-off: Nepster proposes removing all time limits below this point.)

Just a Quicky -- The level title suggests a short time limit, though the given 2 minutes is actually far more than the level requires. So I suggest reducing the time limit to 1 minute (which does not make it much harder; it would still probably end up being the first time-limited level in the ordering).

Hello John! Got a New Lemming? -- The time limit provides a satisfying feeling of being just in time, without actually making the level much harder.

Fall and no life (Part Two) -- Same, as regards the main solution, although other (faster) solutions exist.

Scaling the Heights -- Same (if we keep to the original 2 minutes). My solution saves the required number in 1:33 and saves all in 1:45, if I multitask the miner and the long bridge. If instead I start the bridge just after assigning the miner, I still complete within 2 minutes. So I'm on the fence about this level; the fact that you can multitask and finish with a lot of time to spare means the time limit isn't doing very much. Namida, what was your reason for wanting to keep this time limit?

(Proxima cut-off: I propose removing all time limits below this point.)

ONWARD AND UPWARD -- The time limit encourages the solution with the basher-turning trick, but doesn't enforce it. I believe it was not the developers' intention to require this trick (just because it seems a bit too obscure for ONML). The trick is the only way to achieve lose-3, so we could make that a talisman.

THE SILENCE OF THE LEMMINGS, Lemming about town -- On bsmith's list, but namida, Nepster and I do not see why these time limits should be retained.

(Feel free to continue looking for other levels that should keep their time limits that we've overlooked.)

[Proxima]

Some more thoughts about It's hero time....

I have never actually played the level on Amiga (or emulator), but I believe that all versions except Lix allow a variety of solutions, so we don't know whether there was ever a specific intended solution.

The set of possible solutions varies from one version to another, because of the variation in clock speed.

It's been suggested that the title refers to an intended solution in which only one lemming takes skills. However, this doesn't work in NL; whether you mine or dig at the start, the worker lemming does not end up at the front of the crowd. A solution that is otherwise the same still works, but more than one lemming takes skills, so new players won't make that connection with the title.

A no-climber solution exists (and works in NL). This would be an interesting talisman. It requires 58 seconds, since the trap is built over, making the last lemming's journey longer than in solutions that mine or dig before the trap.

The fastest solution requires about 42 seconds. This is the only possible solution in Lix, which has a faster clock; and I remember finding it a fun challenge to find a solution with that constraint. If we want to enforce a smaller set of solutions, we could shorten the time limit to 45 seconds (but then we would lose the possibility of the no-climber talisman).

Conversely, removing the time limit (without namida's terrain change) allows solutions in which the trap is built over by a climber. However, it's quite tricky to find such a solution (at least as tricky as solving normally) so I would not class this as a backroute. If we want to take this option, it would make possible an interesting talisman that's not possible otherwise: no basher.

There is a class of solutions that narrowly fails in NL, in which the last lemming walks to the steel over the water. Time runs out after 27 or 28 are saved. Because this fails so narrowly, the player may get stuck trying to refine this solution, without realising that the last lemming's journey time is the deciding factor and so it cannot be made to work. In my opinion, this is the biggest problem with keeping the status quo (1 minute, no terrain change). We could shorten the time limit to make it more obvious that this route fails, or give more time (or unlimited time) to allow it to succeed.

In short, the level has an interesting set of possible solutions no matter what we do, so it's very hard to decide what requirements to set

[Nepster]

Regarding It's hero time:

There is a class of solutions that narrowly fails in NL, in which the last lemming walks to the steel over the water.

I prefer to adapt the level slightly to allow for these solutions, as they are a pretty natural class of solutions and fail due to only 8 frames. Moreover they have been possible in the DOS version and (according to some youtube videos) in the Amiga version as well. One possible change would be to move the platform with the water and steel slightly to the left (and perhaps the starting platform, too).

Conversely, removing the time limit (without namida's terrain change) allows solutions in which the trap is built over by a climber.

I am against this change however, because it allows for a solution that traps the crowd with the blocker. And I feel that the ever-moving crowd is one of the key characteristics of this level.

Regarding the talisman suggestions:
- no-climber solution: The 41-sec. solution can be adapted to a no-climber solution. Curiously that was the first 41-sec. solution I found.
- no-basher solution: I am against this talisman, because it indeed requires removing the time limit. But then a 3-skill solution works (with builder, miner and digger) which uses 1:12.54. This is another reason against removing the time limit completely.
- skills-to-only-one-lemming: This solution still works in NL in principal, but requires at the moment 1:00.24. It's actually a very nice solution and requires much less precision than e.g. the no-climber 41-sec. solution.

[Proxima]

I prefer to adapt the level slightly to allow for these solutions, as they are a pretty natural class of solutions and fail due to only 8 frames. Moreover they have been possible in the DOS version and (according to some youtube videos) in the Amiga version as well. One possible change would be to move the platform with the water and steel slightly to the left (and perhaps the starting platform, too).

Thanks. I would also like to keep these solutions, since this was how I originally solved the level (I first played the Mac version, which has one of the slowest clocks). Perhaps the simplest change that allows this (other than giving more time) is just to move the hatch a bit to the right. I haven't found the skills-to-1-lemming NL solution yet, but presumably that would also be possible then? Although I don't know whether we want to have multiple talismans for one level. Does any Lemmings Plus level do this?

[Nepster]

Perhaps the simplest change that allows this (other than giving more time) is just to move the hatch a bit to the right. I haven't found the skills-to-1-lemming NL solution yet, but presumably that would also be possible then?

Yes, correct. Well, at least as long as you don't block several other solutions with the hatch movement, too.

Although I don't know whether we want to have multiple talismans for one level. Does any Lemmings Plus level do this?

LemPlus V has three talismans just for the final level.

[bsmith]

No time for a detour, Four Play, Synchronised Lemming, Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), The race against cliches, Oh No! Squish, Speed Trap, Five Alive - Keep the time limit as is.

Hello John! Got A New Lemming, Onward and Upward, The Silence of the Lemmings, Lemming About Town - Tight time limits, but the limits do not seem to add much.  I'm fine with removing the limits on these level.

It's Hero Time - The time limit seems appropriate, except for the fact there are so many solutions in the 1:01-1:02 range due to engine differences.  I want to keep the 1 minute time limit with a terrain change - move the short wall in the lower left to the right a bit so that leftward lemmings turn around a little sooner (or making that wall thicker would also work).

Just A Quicky - It takes 1:21 for all 40 lemmings to reach the exit without adjusting the release rate.  The name suggests a time constraint, so I support changing the time limit to 1 minute.

Fall and no life (Part Two), Scaling the Heights - I'm undecided with these two.

[Proxima]

Proposed modification of "It's hero time". The thin bricks at the lower-left have been replaced by horizontal bricks. This allows the class of solutions we were discussing where the last lemming walks to the steel. It also allows the skills-to-1-lemming solution, which could be a talisman.

[Proxima]

As there has been no further input, it looks like this is the situation:

Consensus for keeping the time limit:
No time for a detour, Four Play, Synchronised Lemming, Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), The race against cliches, Oh No! Squish, Speed Trap, Five Alive, It's hero time (with terrain change).

Consensus for dropping the time limit:
Onward and Upward, The Silence of the Lemmings, Lemming about town (and all levels other than the 17 mentioned in this post).

No consensus:
Just a Quicky -- Proxima, bsmith favour reducing the time limit to 1 minute. Nepster wants to remove it; namida wants to keep the original 2 minutes.

Hello John -- Proxima, namida favour keeping the time limit; Nepster wants to remove it; bsmith "is fine with removing" (but prefers keeping?)

Scaling the Heights -- Proxima favours keeping the original time limit (2:00), Nepster wants to remove it, namida proposes 2:20, and bsmith is undecided.

Fall and no life (Part Two) -- Proxima wants to keep the time limit, bsmith is undecided, and there are no other votes since the level was only recently proposed.

What's the best way for us to move on? Has anyone changed their opinion other than those listed above?

[namida]

I don't object too strongly to a change to 1min for Just A Quicky, I guess. Nor am I too worried what happens with Scaling The Heights.

Hello John I'm very much in favor of keeping it.

I'll have to take another look at Fall And No Life Pt2 before I give any further answer there.

[Proxima]

I just had another look at FANL2 myself, including looking back at old posts to see what the various solutions people had come up with were.

My solution was the slowest, only just finishing in time on the Genesis. But on NL it has nearly 20 seconds to spare because of the slower clock. Because of this leeway, it's possible to bash rather than mine to contain the crowd, and not use a basher to stop the builder early, thus saving a miner overall.

Faster solutions seem to depend on the "miner turns on OWW" behaviour, which doesn't work in NL.

So my proposal is that we keep the time limit, and remove one miner (which also has the advantage of making the skillset a symmetrical 1-5-5-1). That's if we're going for a version where my solution is intended. If we want to keep all the solutions in, we should add a layer of non-OWW terrain above the OWW to allow miner turning, keep the second miner, and drop the time limit.

Incidentally, while looking through old posts for this, I stumbled on a topic in which I'd asked Mike Dailly which solution to "It's hero time" was intended -- and it was one of the solutions in which the last lemming walks to the steel, so we made the right call there.

[bsmith]

In my opinion we can keep the time limit on 'Fall and No Life part 2' as long as the skillset stays unchanged. My fastest solution in the current NL engine uses all the skills and finishes in 2:26.  This time could be a few seconds shorter with the old miner-on-OWW behavior, maybe sub 2:20.

Is there a solution to 'Hello John' that would be possible without the time limit?  I have two variations of what I think is the intended solution, depending on which hatch the athlete comes out of.  Both of these finish within the 3:00 time limit.

If we keep a time limit on 'Scaling the Heights' it should be the original 2:00 time limit.

[Proxima]

I'd like to see your solution to FANL2.

Also, Nepster asked to see mine, so here's a replay.

[Nepster]

Regarding FANL2:
Basically I am very happy with Proxima's suggestion. But I still see two small problems:
1) There is a backroute, that uses only 2:14 (see attachment). I would suggest enlarging the one-way-wall on the right to reach deeper.

2) Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If one misses the builder trick at the end, and does not use the basher at the first builder, but to create a gap at the last bridge, the solution takes exactly 3:01.00. Some more tricks to shave off a few frames look feasable, but unfortunately fail due to single pixels or would only work with RR40 instead or RR50. So I would prefer if the intended solution took 3-4 seconds longer to make it clear that another trick is needed.

Is there a solution to 'Hello John' that would be possible without the time limit?  I have two variations of what I think is the intended solution, depending on which hatch the athlete comes out of.  Both of these finish within the 3:00 time limit.

I posted a screenshot of the final frame of such a solution a few weeks ago.

The time limit basically prevents... (click to show/hide)

... that the athlete makes 1,5 rounds through the level.

[bsmith]

My first solution to FANL2 is very similar to Proxima's.  Attached is my fast solution.
I agree that the backroute Nepster illustrates needs to be fixed, but I suggest adding one steel block to the left of the current steel rather than extending the one way arrows.

Hello John does seem to need its time limit to prevent stuff like Nepster has shown.

[Proxima]

Neat, but I would class this as a backroute since it doesn't go through the OWW on the far left; even more so in NL since the miner turning behaviour doesn't normally work, but you used a trick to make it work anyway. So my current inclination is to make the following changes:

- Keep the time limit;
- Prevent Nepster's backroute as suggested, by adding another steel block;
- Remove one miner, preventing bsmith's backroute;
- Move the exit to the left so Nepster's 3:01 variation on the solution works.

Would that be okay?

* * *

It looks like we've reached a consensus regarding Just a Quicky (change to 1 minute) and Hello John (keep time limit), but no progress towards a consensus on Scaling the Heights.

[Nepster]

Would that be okay?

Has my approval.

Regarding Scaling the Heights:
Attached are 8 different solutions, the longest taking roughly 1:45, the shortest 17 seconds. I really would like to see any solution that takes longer than the 2 minutes. Otherwise I still don't see any reason to keep the time limit.

[Proxima]

My solution to Scaling the Heights. With no time limit, this could be done without multitasking the miner and the long bridge from the bottom.

[EDIT: Attached the correct replay this time!]

[bsmith]

I object to considering my solution to FANL2 to be a backroute.  Not bashing through that one specific part of the terrain is not enough for me to say 'backroute'.  The fact I used a trick to make it work just makes my solution less obvious than the more common solutions.  I am fine with the other three proposed changes but leave the skillset alone.

I have my solution to Scaling the Heights attached.

[Nepster]

Here are 4 more solutions to FANL2 that use two miners (and one that is possible even with the reduced skill set). Most of them a probably acceptable, apart from the one shortcut that turns on the steel of the exit platform. Perhaps one or two others are too similar to FANL1, though.

My solution to Scaling the Heights. With no time limit, this could be done without multitasking the miner and the long bridge from the bottom.

I already mentioned this in chat: If one blocks instead of mines at the beginning and then blocks another time at the end to turn the crowd earlier, the solution works in 2 min even without multi-tasking.

[namida]

Regarding FANL2, I just played it. I don't recall the actual solution, so I just tried to find the first one that appeared to me.

My initial attempt with this route fell short by about 5 seconds. This modification (using a miner instead of a basher to hold the crowd, as it's otherwise interchangable with the basher near the end) allowed the solution to pass with about 10 seconds to spare.

I can think of some solutions that would fail due to the time limit, but I'd personally think they're more obscure than this one anyway.

(Note: Replay is based off the original version of this level, without the modified lemming counts. I doubt it'll affect the success of the replay though.)

[namida]

If we can't come to any final decision on these last few levels' time limits, could we consider: Is the presence or absence of one going to significantly affect where the level should be placed in the order? And if not, perhaps we should start working on the order now; we can always come to a decision on these last few time limits later (and perhaps more people can give their input).

(Although with that being said, you could definitely argue that if it matters little enough that we can go on with ordering, then the best answer is "remove the time limit" anyway.)

[bsmith]

I support the notion to remove the time limit from the last couple of disputed timed level so we can move forward.

[Proxima]

Sorry for the delay. I wasn't hanging back in the hope of firmer consensus; it was just that other things in life got in the way for a while.

Here's version 0.2.1, with Scaling the Heights non-time-limited (other levels where we decided to remove had already been done); Just a Quicky has one minute; my edited versions of It's hero time and FANL2 are in, and I've added the same extra steel to FANL1 for consistency.

[namida]

If we're happy with the lemming counts and time limits, then that just leaves ordering and maybe a few more fixes.

I'll take a look at this sometime over the next couple of days (probably tomorrow night) and give some more input on level ordering. Also - have we decided on a fix for "Let's Go Camping"? (This is probably the only level I'd need to see a fix for before I could give useful input on its position.)

[Proxima]

I believe we decided on a fix for "Let's Go Camping" (principally, removing the digger, which cuts out all the "turn back at the top" backroutes), but it isn't in the pack yet. Thanks for the reminder.

I think the remaining tasks are:

1. Terrain modifications, including revealing hidden traps (we've agreed we should do this, but haven't agreed on how in all cases).

2. Which levels to backroute-fix, and how.

3. Ordering.

4. Talismans.

I think it makes sense to do the tasks in the above order (particularly as backroute fixes will affect decisions about ordering), but ordering is by far the largest remaining task, so perhaps we should start on that straight away? What do the others think?

[namida]

For #1, the logical first step would be to come up with a list of which levels have such traps. This is what most of the (non-backroute-fixing) modifications will consist of; there might be a few cases where it's a matter of fixing things that look (or function) weird or trimming out excessive decoration, but I'd guess such cases will be the minority.

For #4, it's always good to have ideas. The only ones I recall that came up so far were save-all on "Cascade" (obvious one), lose-3 for "Onward And Upward", and lose-10, 10-builder, 10-bomber for "You Live And Lem". We should probably keep a list of these somewhere, maybe in the first post.

[bsmith]

I see one lemming count I would adjust.  Menacing currently has 25/40 but the other special graphic levels have 30/50 or 35/50.  I propose to change Menacing to 30/50.

There are several levels with bombers in excess of the amount of lemmings that can be lost.  I think we should remove these bombers (except for levels like X of everything or other pattern in the skill counts).

I don't like the terrain change in Compression Method.  It adds a digger pit backroute that is not possible in the original.  I think making the horizontal steel thinner as opposed to moving it up would be better.

Removing the traps from Worra Load of Old Blocks also adds a backroute buy building up to the steel on the right.  In this case I think the right way to fix the hidden traps is to change the type of trap to the grinder wheel trap rather than take them all out.

[Proxima]

Menacing has 80 lemmings in the original, the other special graphic levels have 100. So the change is consistent with what we've done on other levels.

The digger pit solution to Compression Method is possible in the original (use a bomber to stop the digger going too far), and not really a backroute since it's exactly the same idea as the main solution (compress to get through the traps), just a more complicated way to set it up.

I also don't like the way namida changed Worra load of old blocks, but I'm not sure what I prefer. I'll have a look at which other levels had hidden traps so we can discuss them all together.

[bsmith]

I attached a modified version of Compression Method where I made the horizontal steel thinner.  The destructible bricks only lose 5 pixels of height in this version.

[Proxima]

Version 0.2.2. I've added this new version of Compression Method 1.

There were more levels than I realised with unusable bombers, so after going through the pack, I decided on the following changes. (Let me know if you disagree with any of these, we can always reconsider.)

* Removed bombers on the following 100% levels: Quest for Kieran, Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy, Just a Quicky, I have a cunning plan, Let's go camping, Electric Circuit, Everyone's a hard nut, The North Poles, The gate trap lemmings, Emmings! (No L), Just a Minute, Just a Minute (Part Two), Steel Block Party, Lemmy in the cold, cold ground.

* Reduced the number of bombers on these levels: And then there were four (10, 50/60), Acrophobia (1, 24/25), Upsidedown World (1, 49/50).

* Pop Yor Top: required 33/40 and has 30 bombers. I changed this to 30/40 and 10, since this looks neater in the skillset.

* Removed blockers on a few 100% levels where this makes the skillset look neater and blockers weren't really useful: Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy, The North Poles, Lemmy in the cold, cold ground.

* Menacing: originally required 70/80 and had 15 bombers. We previously changed this to 35/50 and 15. I've made it 30/40 and 10 since this looks neater in the skillset.

* The Needs of the Many: originally 8/15 but only 11 floaters, you can't save the other lemmings at all. I've made it 8/11.

The following levels still have unusable bombers, but I haven't changed them as the skillset is either N-of-all, patterned, or at the very least has all 8 skills present: Where do you see lemmings?, Doomsday, Rainbow Island, A Spot of Bother, Perseverance, Across the Gap, Four Play, It's hero time, There's madness in the method, The Great Lemming Caper*, Which one are you trying to get?, Oh No! Squish, Triple Trouble.

* In the backrouting discussion, we will at least discuss removing blockers from The Great Lemming Caper, so this may be reconsidered.

[bsmith]

Your bomber removal list is very similar to mine.  I am satisfied with most of the changes you implemented.  I would also remove the bomber from There's Madness in the Method.  I have a no-floater solution for The Needs of the Many that uses extra bombers and lemmings, so I do not want to see that level changed.

Since you mentioned The Great Lemming Caper, I have multiple distinct solutions for that level and two of them use a blocker.

[namida]

Proxima: I'm gonna agree with a generalisation of bsmith's point; we shouldn't remove surplus lemmings just because "there aren't enough permanent skills for them, and permanents are needed to complete the level". The only exception I might agree on is in the case of a splat start where a splatform is impossible to make at all (not just "impossible to make and still pass the level"), and I don't know of any levels off the top of my head that fit this criteria - in fact even then, one could argue that changing which lemmings get floaters could be perceived to be part of a solution - we even do have a level that would (ignoring the alternate solution for obvious reasons) fit this description, "Cascade".

That aside, your list seems good to me.

[Proxima]

I'd love to see this alternate solution to "The Needs of the Many". I had another look, and although you can break the initial fall with a bomber, you still have only 11 climbers and no other way to get the lemmings up.

[namida]

He said no floaters (not no climbers), and nothing about saving the extra lemmings, just about using them. On the unmodified version of the level, under NeoLemmix, this is not only possible, but fairly easy. Still could be considered talisman worthy, though.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Use two bombers to make the fall at the start survivable. Send a climber up, bomb. Build up to the top, as usual. Bash through the snowman. Use the last two bombers to get through the wall near the exit. You'll save exactly the requirement - I could even have believed this might have been an intended alternate solution, if it weren't for the fact that it's impossible under DOS Lemmings.

[Proxima]

If that's what bsmith meant, I don't see why it's an argument for keeping the old lemming count. You use and lose the three climber-bombers and save the other eight climbers; the remaining lemmings contribute nothing and have to be left behind.

Also, isn't the intended solution exactly the same, except you float down rather than bomb down? Hardly "talisman worthy" for such a small change.

[Nepster]

Perhaps a more convincing argument is the solution to "The Needs of the Many" that uses just 8 climbers? This solution became impossible with the change to only 11 lemmings.

[Proxima]

Sure, in that case we should put it back. Your replay isn't working for me (the first bomber goes off too high and the rest splat), but of course I believe you if you say this solution exists. I wasn't trying to be obstructive, just wanted to hash this out so we could make the best decision for the pack.

[Nepster]

Sorry, I used an old version and it seems there has been a very slight change to the level. Here a replay, that (hopefully ) works with Lemmings_Redux_0.2.1.
One should note however, that there is a much simpler solution along the same lines that works even with 11 lemmings. The attached replay is therefore only interesting for talisman purposes or min-required-skill-challenges.

[namida]

Okay, my thoughts on level ordering, and possibly some other random comments:

(Gentle 8-10) Snuggle Up To A Lemming presents the fewest hazards, and should come first. Get A Little Extra Help also presents very few hazards, but more importantly, it feels more different from the other two than they do from each other, so it makes sense to seperate them with it. While there's no denying Downwardly Mobile Lemming is still pretty low on hazards, there are a few more, and they're not quite as easy to avoid - yes, still very easy, but not as easy.

(Gentle 11-12) A Block From Home is actually kinda tricky, especially the bit right at the start. Keep Your Hair On Mr Lemming introduces a new mechanic, but is otherwise a very straightforward level. I thus suggest swapping these two.

(Gentle 13) I'd move Where Do You See Lemmings a bit further back, due to the tight save requirement. Somewhere around 20 should work well.

(Gentle 23-24) Lemmings In The Attic, on the other hand, should be a little bit earlier, probably close to (but before) Rainbow Island. Darkness Of The Royal Family should be even earlier than Lemmings In The Attic; while it does only give 5 of most skills, it gives 10 builders, and 5 of each skill is more than enough here.

(Quirky 4) I feel this is way too early for Dolly Dimple. I'd actually consider this to be a fairly hard level, definitely worthy of being in a later rank than Quirky.

(Quirky 6) Postcard From Lemmingland, it's in the right rank but I think it should be later. Keep in mind this level was a major roadblock for many players on their first playthrough.

(Quirky 9) With A Little Help From My Lem, if I'm not mistaken, requires one to be quite precise. It originates from the NES version which operates on a tile-basis even for physics, so precision is not an issue there. While the position is fine, I think some adjustments to address this may be needed.

(Quirky 13) Across The Gap; I remember struggling a lot with this one when I first encountered it. However, looking at it now I'm not sure how I found it hard. Anyone else feel this way about this one? If so, we might want to consider moving it to a later position.

(Quirky 21) The Crankshaft; I think this level could go a bit earlier. Somewhere near Postcard From Lemmingland, but not right before or after it feels right, I think?

(Quirky 22) Compression Method 1; position is fine but the traps should either have no overwrite on, or be moved up one pixel (so the top of the trigger platform is at the top of the blocks). I personally would prefer the no overwrite approach.

(Zany 5) I think the trick from Let's Get Together, unless there's another solution I'm not aware of, is a bit too advanced for this position. It should probably go into the next rank.

(Zany 7) The Run Around belongs in early Quirky at best, I think. Don't get me wrong, it's a really fun level, but it's not hard at all.

(Zany 13) Let's Go Camping; based off the "remove the digger" fix, this is WAY too hard for this position and belongs near the end of the game. GREAT level though!

(Zany 17) Mr Lemming Lives Next Door feels like it should be a bit earlier; maybe near the start of Zany, or even late Quirky.

(Zany 19) Tunnel Vision is too easy for its position; this one definitely belongs in Quirky.

(Zany 29-30) I think that Temple Of Love feels better as a rank ender than The North Poles.

(Manic 7) Emmings! (No L) is a bit easy for this position, I think. Somewhere around mid-Zany might work?

(Manic 9) Rocky Road, I get the impression falling off the rocks to the right of the entrance should land in the trap trigger area? Might need an adjustment for this. Even with this taken into account, it seems too easy for the position; it's basically just a worker lemming level that requires you to be somewhat conservative of skills.


I'll go over the rest of the pack another time, I think.

[Proxima]

I agree with most of the above. I think ordering is such a big task, it makes sense to divide it up: first decide on which levels should move from one rank to another; then we can work on the ordering within each rank.

I think the Gentle rank is fine as-is (again, just in terms of which levels). Is everyone else happy to sign off on this?

Quirky: Most levels seem okay for rank 2 (though some early levels should come later); but if we do move any levels down into Quirky, we have to move an equal number up.  I propose moving up "I have a cunning plan", "Compression Method 1" and "Mind the step..."

Zany: I agree with namida, "The run around", "Tunnel vision" and "Mr Lemmy lives next door" should move down. "Let's get together" should move up to Manic; "Let's go camping" to Lunatic.

Manic: Move down "Emmings! (No L)" and "Synchronised Lemming". Move up "Fall and no Life (Part Two)".

Lunatic: Move down "Got anything... lemmingy?" and "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground".

[namida]

When dealing with a case where I have, for example, 3 levels that should move down a rank but only 2 that should move up, while I do consider the possibility of moving an extra one up, I also in these cases consider simply moving the remainder level to near the start / end (as applicable) of the rank it's currently in. As such, I don't think it's critical to come up with a list that balances out (yet) if we're just looking at what levels need to be moved to other ranks.

[Nepster]

Before we start discussing, can anyone please post a pack where they already ordered the levels according to their own judgement?
At the moment I have a big problem evaluating the average difficulty of the ranks, because easy and hard levels are totally mixed. At the moment I see "Oh No, Squish" at the very end of Lunatic, while I consider "Flow Control" in Zany to be harder than "Oh No, Squish". None were considered as candidates to move yet, so I wonder whether this just got overlooked, or whether my estimated difficulty is way off?
Then there are levels like "Race against cliches", "It's all a matter of timing" and "No hurry, Relax" (in Manic), which I all consider relatively hard even for Manic (especially "No hurry, Relax"). Then follow "Lemming Lament" and "Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility", which (especially by comparison to the previous levels) are far easier. So now I have the problem to decide: Are the first few too hard for Manic and should be moved later, or are the following ones too easy and should be moved to earlier ranks, or should they all just be reordered within the rank? To be honest, I have no clue what is the best action, because I have no feeling for the average difficulty of Manic and whether they fit there.

If we already had a rough order, determining the levels that are out-of-place would be much easier for me.

Regarding Gentle: I mainly agree with the levels placed there. But "Where do you see Lemmings" (Gentle 13), "A Spot of Bother" (Gentle 22) and "Quest for Kieran" (Gentle 27) struck me as more difficult than "Vacation in Gemland" (Quirky 10), "The Crankshaft" (Quirky 21), "Pop your top" (Quirky 23) or especially "A Towering Problem" (Zany 9) (given that bomber timing is not an issue any more). I would prefer to see these three levels in early Quirky (which right now feels far more difficult that most of Zany).

[Proxima]

I believe the current pack is already ordered according to bsmith's judgement (with only small changes made subsequently). If you feel it would be helpful for me to suggest a complete reordering according to my own judgement, I'm happy to do that, although I'm worried it would make it even harder for us to reach a consensus

[bsmith]

The current ordering has a lot of room for improvement.  The first and last ranks are the only ones where I am comfortable saying most of the levels in that rank should stay in that rank.  The intermediate ranks are a lot more fluid with difficulty.  I tried to incorporate peoples' early statements about how difficult they found the levels; but I found that over half of the levels which are in the pack were judged to be a medium difficulty.  Most of the easy stuff found its way into Gentle or early Quirky.  Most of the hard stuff got put directly into Lunatic.  I split up the stuff in the middle more on a whim than anything as I think the difficulty is fairly flat across the center third of the pack.

As for the order within each rank, the biggest influence on level ordering was the graphic styles, trying to avoid clusters of the same style; Gentle is an exception as the main influence there was having X-of-everything skillcounts decrease as you progress through the rank. Other than that I put the special graphic levels + Sega 4 as the midpoint of each rank and tried to pick a level I thought would make a good rank finale. (On this note I think Triple Trouble may be better as the Manic finale rather than having it in Lunatic.)

A side note, I am warming up to the rank names Gentle, Quirky, Zany, Manic, Lunatic since I have been mentally appending "Lemmings" behind each rank name.

[Nepster]

I dumped images of all levels and then ordered them according to my preferences, ignoring the existing order or the opinions voiced here already (I just kept the positions of the VGASpecs in the middle of the ranks). So please take the following list as my preference, but not as a suggestion how to compromise the various opinions and get a final list out of it.

I listed my own position, the position in the Redux pack version 0.2.2 and the level name. I marked levels where the position changed by at least one full rank (i.e. 30 levels) via bold type.

Gentle (click to show/hide)

0101	0101	Just Dig
0102	0102	Only floaters can survive this
0103	0103	Tailor-made for blockers
0104	0104	Now use miners and climbers
0105	0105	You need bashers this time
0106	0106	A task for bombers
0107	0107	Builders will help you here
0108	0109	Snuggle up to a lemming
0109	0108	Downwardly mobile lemmings
0110	0112	Keep your hair on Mr Lemming
0111	0110	Get a little extra help
0112	0111	A block from home
0113	0121	Rainbow Island
0114	0114	Cindyland
0115	0116	A Beast of a level
0116	0119	Let's be careful out there
0117	0223	Pop yor top!!!
0118	0129	Lemming toast
0119	0210	Vacation in Gemland
0120	0117	Patience
0121	0118	You Live and Lem
0122	0124	Darkness of the royal family
0123	0123	Lemmings in the attic
0124	0221	The Cranskshaft
0125	0115	Careless clicking costs lives
0126	0128	Turn around young lemmings
0127	0309	A towering problem
0128	0130	Going their separate ways
0129	0120	Doomsday
0130	0126	Catch more floaters

Quirky (click to show/hide)

0201	0201	Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy
0202	0125	Pillar talking
0203	0225	No choice but to follow them
0204	0113	Where do you see Lemmings?
0205	0314	Plethora of Presents
0206	0215	Don't panic
0207	0322	Over the wall
0208	0127	Quest for Kieran
0209	0208	Just a quicky
0210	0207	It's Lemmingentry Watson
0211	0212	The long way around
0212	0312	The bridge is breaking down
0213	0227	Go for it!
0214	0319	Tunnel vision
0215	0216	Menacing!!
0216	0427	Take care, Sweetie
0217	0401	And now, the end is near...
0218	0122	A Spot of Bother
0219	0315	No time for a detour
0220	0203	Perserverance
0221	0426	Down the tube
0222	0404	The far side
0223	0224	Meeting Adjourned
0224	0307	The run around
0225	0303	The needs of the many...
0226	0301	Last one out is a rotten egg!
0227	0408	Five alive
0228	0407	Emmings! (No L)
0229	0325	No world without you
0230	0209	With a little help from my Lem

Zany (click to show/hide)

0301	0220	No justice for the hero
0302	0202	Watch out, there's traps about
0303	0417	The silence of the lemmings
0304	0308	Don't leave any lemmings
0305	0205	The Stack
0306	0219	Mind the step...
0307	0230	And then there were four...
0308	0214	Keep on trucking
0309	0218	Lemtris
0310	0421	Lemming lament
0311	0525	Oh no! Squish
0312	0513	Munity on the bounty
0313	0211	I have a cunning plan
0314	0310	Pitfall
0315	0316	What an awesome level
0316	0204	Dolly Dimple
0317	0422	Lemming tomato ketchup facility
0318	0302	Come on over to my place
0319	0410	Snow joke
0320	0411	Old MacDonald had a farm...
0321	0318	Electric circuit
0322	0317	Mr Lemmy lives next door
0323	0519	Got anything...Lemmingy???
0324	0409	Rocky Road
0325	0424	Onward and Upward
0326	0217	Tension sheet, good idea
0327	0526	Lemmy in the cold, cold around
0328	0206	Postcard from Lemmingsland
0329	0415	Jump down!
0330	0226	Time waits for no Lemming

Manic (click to show/hide)

0401	0229	Cascade
0402	0511	Which one are you trying to get
0403	0506	Lemming about town
0404	0510	The lemming funhouse
0405	0304	Twins
0406	0518	Scaling the heights
0407	0228	Speed Trap
0408	0326	Upsidedown world
0409	0222	Compression Method 1
0410	0514	Watch right or left (Part Two)
0411	0324	Everyone's a hard nut
0412	0323	Creature Discomforts
0413	0306	Flow Control
0414	0213	Across the gap
0415	0416	A Beast II of a level
0416	0418	The race against cliches
0417	0330	The North Poles
0418	0505	Rocky VI
0419	0504	Poles Apart
0420	0414	Just a minute...
0421	0305	Let's get together
0422	0515	It's not over 'til it's over
0423	0320	Watch your fingertip!
0424	0321	Four play
0425	0413	Synchronised Lemming
0426	0311	Acrophobia
0427	0327	Worra load of old blocks (with traps readded)
0428	0402	With a twist of lemming please
0429	0523	Lemmings in a situation
0430	0503	The Great Lemming Caper

Lunatic (click to show/hide)

0501	0501	It's hero time
0502	0419	It's all a matter of timing
0503	0528	Triple Trouble
0504	0329	Temple of Love
0505	0429	This Corrosion
0506	0423	Water processing plant
0507	0517	Steel Block Party
0508	0412	Fall and no life
0509	0406	AAARRRGGGHHH!!!
0510	0425	Chill out!
0511	0430	Poor wee creatures!
0512	0520	Evacuating a coal mine
0513	0502	Htere's madness in the method
0514	0403	The gate trap lemmings
0515	0516	SEGA four
0516	0524	Hello John! Get a new lemming?
0517	0521	Fix the road, quick!
0518	0405	Evil whisper
0519	0508	Down along, up. In that order
0520	0328	Move on in two sepearate groups.
0521	0509	Anxiety
0522	0512	Just a minute (Part Two)
0523	0428	Fall and no life (Part two)
0524	0420	No hurry, Relax.
0525	0529	Save Me
0526	0522	Out, away from the tune
0527	0527	I am A.T.
0528	0313	Let's go camping (without the digger)
0529	0507	No added colours or lemmings
0530	0530	Lemmings' Ark

[Proxima]

I'm sorry this has taken so long I've had other (non-Lemmings) projects keeping me busy, and also it's been difficult to know how to proceed.

In chat just now, Nepster asked if this could be ready when the new-formats version is, so that it can be the default pack loaded. That would be great, so let's try to speed this along.

Deciding about the ordering is too big a task to do all at once, and we all have different ideas about ordering and we're not going to reach a consensus. So what I've decided to do is this: I've attached version 0.2.3, in which just the first rank is reordered according to my own preferences, also taking into account the original order and Nepster's suggestions. "The Crankshaft" moves down from rank 2 to rank 1, and "A Spot of Bother" moves up. Please have a look and tell me if this order is okay, and if so then I'll do the same for rank 2, and so on.

Full list of rank 1 levels, with original positions, Nepster's positions and namida's suggestions where different:

Gentle (click to show/hide)

1 Just Dig
2 Only floaters can survive this
3 Tailor-made for blockers
4 Now use miners and climbers
5 You need bashers this time
6 A task for bombers
7 Builders will help you here
8 Snuggle up to a lemming (O: 9 N: 8)
9 Get a little extra help (O: 10 N: 11 namida: 9)
10 Downwardly mobile lemmings (O: 8 N: 9 namida: 10)
11 Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming (O: 12 N: 10 namida: 11)
12 A block from home (O: 11 N: 12 namida: 12)
13 Darkness of the royal family (O: 24 N: 22 namida: move earlier)
14 CindyLand
15 Lemming toast (O: 29 N: 18)
16 A beast of a level
17 Patience (N: 20)
18 You live and Lem (N: 21)
19 Let's be careful out there (N: 16)
20 Where do you see Lemmings? (O: 13 N: Rank 2 namida: move later)
21 Rainbow Island (N: 13)
22 The Crankshaft (O: Rank 2 N: 24)
23 Lemmings in the attic
24 Pillar talking (O: 25 N: Rank 2)
25 Careless clicking costs lives (O: 15 N: 25)
26 Catch more floaters (N: 30)
27 Quest for Kieran (N: Rank 2)
28 Turn around, young lemmings (N: 26)
29 Doomsday (O: 20 N: 29)
30 Going Their Separate Ways (N: 28)

[nin10doadict]

Seems pretty solid but I feel like "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings" should move down a bit because it really just feels like "Tailor Made for Blockers" except easier.

[Proxima]

Thanks. I appreciate the feedback, but I want to keep the skill training levels as they are. For new players, it's nice to isolate the skills so the player is not in a position of having to try out unfamiliar skills, and possibly get the lemmings killed by doing the wrong thing.

Anyway, Nepster approved my rank 1 list, and I've also played through it and feel it works well. So, I'm going to move on to rank 2, but feedback on rank 1 is still welcome.

This is a much harder rank to arrange, because once we get into the puzzle levels, our perceptions of difficulty are coloured by how much we, individually, struggled with each level, and that varies a lot. The best I can do here is make a first draft that feels more or less right, and come back to it later and see how much I want to tweak it

Also, I know we said the selection of levels was final, but looking again, "A Towering Problem" really doesn't look like a good choice. It's a bomber-timing level without timed bombers. I would like to replace this with "Have a nice day", a personal favourite level that I think may have missed out in the voting topics because it's not much harder than its repeat, which isn't a problem for Redux. Would anyone object to this?

Version 0.2.4, with my first-draft ordering for rank 2, is attached. Full list of levels:

Quirky (click to show/hide)

1 Pop Yor Top
2 It's lemmingentry, Watson
3 Vacation in Gemland
4 Go for it!
5 The Stack
6 Just a Quicky
7 The run around
8 A Spot of Bother
9 With a little help from my Lem
10 Plethora of Presents
11 DON'T PANIC
12 Over the wall
13 A TOWERING PROBLEM / Have a nice day
14 Meeting Adjourned
15 The Needs of the Many
16 MENACING!
17 Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door
18 And now, the end is near
19 Tunnel vision
20 Perseverance
21 Down the tube
22 The Far Side
23 Emmings (No L)
24 Time waits for no lemming
25 No choice but to follow them
26 Take care, Sweetie
27 Five Alive
28 Speed Trap
29 Cascade
30 And then there were four

These levels included in rank 2 would be moved up: Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy, Watch out there's traps about, Dolly Dimple, Postcard from Lemmingland, I have a cunning plan, The Long Way Around, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Tension Sheet Good Idea, Across the Gap, LEMTRIS, Mind the step, Compression Method 1, No justice for the hero.

These levels Nepster suggested for rank 2 would appear later: Izzie Wizze Lemmings Get Busy, The Long Way Around, Thebridge is breaking down, Last one out is a rotten egg, No world without you.

[Nessy]

I didn't know this project existed, pretty cool. I was actually doing something similar for fun whenever I'm at a loss for original ideas, but the levels have harder solutions (like a higher save percentage for Pillars of Hercules). However, I don't think I will ever publish it as it really isn't my original work.

Anyway, Rank 1 is pretty solid in my opinion. For rank 2:

- I agree and move Dolly Dimple up. It can be a real hard nut for beginners. The trick used in the intended solution may not be obvious to new players.
- Also agree about moving Keep On Trucking up. I don't know why but that level to this day still gives me so much trouble .
- Replace A Towering Problem with Have A Nice Day! I like that level too even though it is a little builder heavy, but with NeoLemmix it shouldn't be a problem. After all, I think it's a good puzzle because it's not obvious for beginners how to navigate the strange terrain and how to contain the lemmings because you have no bombers if you use blockers. If anything A Towering Problem can make a good late first rank puzzle.
- I think And Then There Were Four would make an excellent last level for this rank.
- I think The Run Around should be earlier (maybe the third or fourth level ), as I don't think it's trivial, but not harder than It's Lemmingentry Watson in my personal opinion. But like you said this is when opinions start to contrast more.

[nin10doadict]

Knowing the solutions to many of these in advance makes it hard to judge, but I do know that I just got stuck on 'with a little help from my Lem' for a half hour. Then I came back to it after playing some other levels and solved it in 30 seconds. I don't know why this happens to me sometimes.
"The needs of the many" either needs to have the backroute fixed or move down. I can see what the level wants me to do but you don't have to use the builders at all. A bomber at the very top of the wall will let you bash through the whole thing.
The rest of the ordering seems fine.

[Proxima]

Thanks, both of you Nessy, you should definitely post your project to the forums; NeoLemmix as a whole is technically a copyright violation, but no-one here minds that, as we're all just having fun with one of our favourite games. Anyhow, I'd like to see it

I've played through my first-draft rank 2 now, and only two levels stood out as badly misplaced:

With a little help from my Lem: I underestimated this level; it is quite hard to spot the correct solution. Nepster also suggested moving it later, so I'll do that in the next version.

Down the tube: This was originally rank 4, and Nepster suggested bringing it down to rank 2. Having tried that out, I think it really belongs in the intermediate rank 3. Of the possibilities to bring back down to replace it, I'll think about it some more, but I'll probably go with "Izzie Wizzie" just because bsmith and Nepster agreed on this being a rank 2 level, even though I found it harder than that.

[Nessy]

Nessy, you should definitely post your project to the forums; NeoLemmix as a whole is technically a copyright violation, but no-one here minds that, as we're all just having fun with one of our favourite games. Anyhow, I'd like to see it

Oh okay that's good to know. I might just publish it then sometime in the future after I finish fixing my first pack and adding some new levels to it.

With A Little Help From My Lem and No Justice For The Hero were my favorite Special levels from the PSP port. I underestimated it as well, and it was my first major roadblock in the Special rank. I think a good place for it would be as one of the last levels of Rank 2 or one of the first of Rank 3, and I'm leaning more to have it just before Cascade.

As for Down The Tube I don't remember if I had trouble with that one. There are several solutions to it, and looking at them, from a beginner's point of view, definitely a middle Rank 3 level.

Izzie Wizzie Lemmings Get Busy is tough for me to place. It's a good puzzle where crowd control is not as easy as in some other levels, but I don't think it's a Rank 3 puzzle. Maybe another late Rank 2 puzzle? I say, for sure, middle of Rank 2 at minimum.

By the way, I am unfamiliar with a lot of the Genesis levels on the list, which is strange because the Genesis soundtrack is my favorite . I actually started playing them now in NeoLemmix. One of the first levels I played was Lemmings' Ark because I remember everyone saying that it was one of the hardest official levels... and yes it was. That one stumped me good for a while . Definitely a late last rank level.

[Proxima]

Yeah, Lemmings' Ark will most likely stay near the end, because several forum members consider it one of the hardest levels. If it were just me, I'd probably make it the rank 4 finisher, but in this case I'll probably end up deferring to consensus

Anyway, I've had another look and think over the levels for rank 2, and there are a few more I have doubts about:

Five Alive. This is another one it's tempting to drop entirely; it's much easier than intended in NL, since you can bomb at the terrain/steel edge to turn the lemmings. Could just keep it as an early level, but I wouldn't mind dropping it. If we drop it, I'd like to consider moving down another level and reintroducing another level in rank 3 or higher, because there are a couple of candidates for moving down:

Postcard from Lemmingland. This was in early rank 2, and got moved up because in original Lemmings, it was a roadblock for many players. However, in Redux, there are earlier levels like "The Crankshaft", "Mr Lemmy Lives Next Door", "Emmings (No L)" using the idea of mining down to pick up the crowd, so it should be much easier to think of this solution in "Postcard".

Lemmy in the cold, cold ground. bsmith had this as a late rank 5 level, but... it's really easy. Might this be moved down to rank 2?

[Nepster]

Lemmy in the cold, cold ground could work as a rank 2 level. It just looks a lot more threatening than it actually is. However I would move the screen start a bit, so that the hatch next to the gap is visible and the player sees where their lemmings die.

Postcard from Lemmingland still seems harder than rank 2. In my opinion most of the difficulty comes from the fact, that the builder is just used for turning around in a digger pit (has this occured before, btw?), which is at first glance a very weak usage for the builder. And I don't think a new player will find the solution where one actually builds over the pit...
Actually, "Solve the level in less than 1:30" or "Solve the level without a floater" might make for a very nice talisman on this level.

[Nessy]

Personally I would keep Five Alive as I think it could be a good puzzle level in Rank 2 even though you can just bomb next to the steel plate. I don't think beginners would know to do that right away or even if something like that could work, but I'm a little neutral on that if it gets dropped then that's fine. I just can't think of a good replacement.

How about if Postcard From Lemmingland were one of the last ones in Rank 2? You do use the reverse miner trick from Crankshaft, but I feel like it is more obvious that you have to do it there than in  Postcard From Lemmingland. Even if it were still obvious it isn't as easy to turn the lemming around to do that trick like in Crankshaft where you more skills and options to accomplish that than in Postcard From Lemmingland. Maybe it should take the place of Five Alive and Five Alive can be one of the first few levels of Rank 2.

By the way I agree that a good Talisman for Postcard From Lemmingland would be to solve the level without a floater. Taking out the floater means that you can't just climb and reverse mine to free the lemmings because that climber would die falling from the pillar on the far left.

[Nessy]

By the way...

Yeah, Lemmings' Ark will most likely stay near the end, because several forum members consider it one of the hardest levels. If it were just me, I'd probably make it the rank 4 finisher, but in this case I'll probably end up deferring to consensus

What do you consider to be a good final level for this pack if Lemmings' Ark was a Rank 4 finisher?

[mobius]

Postcard from Lemmingland still seems harder than rank 2. In my opinion most of the difficulty comes from the fact, that the builder is just used for turning around in a digger pit (has this occured before, btw?), which is at first glance a very weak usage for the builder. And I don't think a new player will find the solution where one actually builds over the pit...
Actually, "Solve the level in less than 1:30" or "Solve the level without a floater" might make for a very nice talisman on this level.

I can agree with this; look at old topics, this *is* the level that stumps most people their first time playing, including myself. I also really like those achievement ideas. I didn't even know about this solution until about a year ago I think. It still amazes me.

[Nessy]

I also really like those achievement ideas. I didn't even know about this solution until about a year ago I think. It still amazes me.

Is that the solution where... (click to show/hide)

You give one lemming a climber and he builds over the gap. Another climber climbs up that first step, digs a little bit, bashes, and the other lemmings walk pass him and up the stairs?

If so, then I didn't know about it until recently as well. Pretty cool solution.

There is another solution that doesn't use a basher... (click to show/hide)

You send one climber and he digs right before falling into the  gap. He then builds so that he reaches the top of the gap, but turns around as well. He then uses the miner on the first step.

This wouldn't achieve the talisman, but it's pretty cool how this level is the Tricky version of The Great Lemming Caper: many solutions, none of them easy to spot at first, and when you get more experience with the game you find even more crazy solutions.

[Proxima]

Heh. I solved Postcard the hard way originally, and didn't know about the reverse miner solution until joining the forums.

What do you consider to be a good final level for this pack if Lemmings' Ark was a Rank 4 finisher?

Fall and no life (Part Two) would be my choice, especially now that we've tightened it to remove some of the solutions.

[Nessy]

Haven't played Fall and no life (Part Two) yet, only part one. I'm going to try it out as soon as I can.

[Nessy]

Okay, I have finally played Fall and no life (Part Two).

It didn't take me as long to solve it as Lemmings' Ark, but I loved the solution . I have some new levels to add to my favorite official level list.

From a beginner's point of view this level would have no doubt been a major puzzle, especially considering the fact that not a lot of new players would have figured out what to do. Nothing in that level is immediately obvious. I say that Fall and no life (Part Two) would make a good Rank 5 level. Maybe not the last one, but I'm still unsure what I would put as a last level .

But I'm getting ahead of myself we aren't even discussing Rank 3 yet .

[nin10doadict]

Now I know I've solved "Fall and no life (Part 2)" before so maybe I just had a few subconscious memories about how to do it, but upon going back and trying it again it only took about five minutes. Not sure if I'd call that rank 5 material, especially since I had a skill left over. It's still a good level though, to be sure, and the time limit did actually force me to change my strategy somewhat.

[Proxima]

Can I see your solution? In case it's a backroute, we are going to fix backroutes in puzzle levels before releasing the pack.

[nin10doadict]

You apparently already fixed it. I played the Genesis version of 'Fall and no life (part 2)' which gives 2 miners. Taking one away removes the backroute because I needed that extra one to turn on the steel in order to make the time limit... So no need to worry about it.

[bsmith]

Finally got some time to look at the new ordering for Rank 1 and 2.  Rank 1 looks solid.  I don't think that Pop Your Top is a good rank 2 opener.   I would swap it with Spot Of Bother (currently #8).

A Towering Problem can be made to enforce what I think is the intended solution by making a few changes: Save 26/30; RR=60; skillset=4,1,4,1,1,0,0,0.

Five Alive seems really weak now.  If we do want to replace a level I would replace this with Have A Nice Day mentioned earlier.

[Nessy]

A Towering Problem can be made to enforce what I think is the intended solution by making a few changes: Save 26/30; RR=60; skillset=4,1,4,1,1,0,0,0.

With that skillset you can solve the level without the floater and blocker. Is that intentional?

I was neutral about Five Alive but I think that if we take advantage of the fact that you can use a bomber next to the first steel plate on the right to turn the lemmings around we can change the parameters to save 5/7, RR to 80, one climber, two bombers, and two builders it might be a decent Rank 2 puzzle. Just throwing that out there but I still think we can replace it with something else entirely .

[Proxima]

I'm not sure what use the floater and blocker would ever be... Looks like bsmith's intended solution is to climb-bomb the first three pillars, then send a climber over to bridge the gap from the right. Unfortunately, this can only be enforced if there are only 4 climbers, which means the bridge has to be placed precisely so the lemming climbs the wall after finishing.

And I still feel it's not much of a puzzle, just a timed bombers levels with a small, pretty obvious twist.

If we replace both A Towering Problem and Five Alive, we'll have to choose one more replacement level, in addition to Have a nice day. I have a few suggestions:

It's the price you have to pay: I don't like this level, but it narrowly missed out on the voting for inclusion, so maybe it should be included to be fair to everyone.
Temporary peace: This is a nice misdirection level that would definitely be nice to include.
One way or another: Another personal favourite that hasn't been considered so far. It's a little builder-heavy, but the two possible routes make a strong impression.

[Nessy]

...which means the bridge has to be placed precisely so the lemming climbs the wall after finishing.

It's a little precise but it's actually not too bad. I had a little bit of time so I did a quick demo of bsmith's version.

If we replace both A Towering Problem and Five Alive, we'll have to choose one more replacement level, in addition to Have a nice day.

My vote is One Way Or Another. However, Temporary Peace would be a good level starter or early Rank 3 puzzle.

[Nepster]

I am very happy with most of the second rank. Just three levels stood out as being too difficult and I wish they would be at the end of the rank: Just a Quicky, The run around and A spot of bother. I know that Nessy disagrees with my view on The run around and bsmith disagrees with my view on A spot of bother, so you probably shouldn't listen to my opinion here.

On the other hand, I agree with bsmith that PoP YoR ToP!! is not such a strong rank opener. I would have suggested It's Lemmingentry Watson, but given Nessy's opinion on it, perhaps The Stack is a better choice?

I'm not sure what use the floater and blocker would ever be... Looks like bsmith's intended solution is to climb-bomb the first three pillars, then send a climber over to bridge the gap from the right. Unfortunately, this can only be enforced if there are only 4 climbers, which means the bridge has to be placed precisely so the lemming climbs the wall after finishing.

And I still feel it's not much of a puzzle, just a timed bombers levels with a small, pretty obvious twist.

Actually I don't think you can enforce this solution at all, unless you lock the RR at 60. Bunching up the lemmings using RR 99 always creates enough time to build over the last gap before the crowd arrives.

[Nessy]

On the other hand, I agree with bsmith that PoP YoR ToP!! is not such a strong rank opener. I would have suggested It's Lemmingentry Watson, but given Nessy's opinion on it, perhaps The Stack is a better choice?

Actually, I think It's Lemmingentry Watson would be a good rank opener. My previous comment was just saying that I personally didn't think The Run Around was harder than that level, but I would like to hear other forum member's opinion on The Run Around because I might be the only one with that opinion.

[Nessy]

The problem I have with The Run Around is that a beginner can figure out the solution because they have experience with a level similar to The Run Around, which is Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming. Both require going over a one way wall, but in The Run Around it's more of a puzzle than just simply climbing over that one way wall. In It's Lemmingentry Watson the intended solution requires doing stuff that hasn't been done yet, and something that beginners might take some more time in figuring out.

I say let's keep The Run Around where it was in the original list.

[Proxima]

Okay, it looks like we are seriously considering removing some levels from the list altogether and replacing them. Since it will be easiest to do that all in one go, I've had another quick look through the higher ranks to see if there are any levels there I'd like to suggest cutting. The only one that stands out is Tension sheet, good idea, which is really large for very few skill assignments, and has very little puzzle interest -- the only thing is having to dig before building across the gap so the builder turns round, which is probably shown in other levels anyway, and it seems silly to keep such a large level just for that.

Does anyone else have feelings for or against keeping this level?

As for The run around (can we fix the title, btw? Runaround is one word), I remember the first time I played it, getting stuck for a while because I couldn't see how to break the climber out of his infinite loop, though playing it again, that part is not too hard either. Still, I wouldn't suggest it for the rank 2 opener because of that potential to get stuck; I think it's fine where it is at the moment.

One reason I'd like to keep It's lemmingentry, Watson where it is is for the symmetry of Quirky 2 being a repeat of Gentle 2. So I'd like to ask: what were people's reasons for not liking Pop Yor Top as the opener -- do you feel it's too hard, or that it's an uninteresting level and doesn't make a good first impression?

[Nessy]

I'm not against taking out Tension Sheet, Good Idea... personally I was never a fan of that level.

Yes, I think we should keep The Run Around where it is. After careful consideration, I think it's just the best place for it.

I think the reason why people don't want Pop Yor Top as the Rank 2 opener is because the solution is easier to execute with instant bombers. I don't think it's a bad level at all, but it probably wouldn't have had a good enough impact as the opener as another level could. If It's Lemmingentry Watson is going to be level 2 then I say The Stack could be the opener as Nepster said. It would be a good "Wait... what?" moment for beginners (at least it was for me).

[bsmith]

Attached I have a slightly modified version of Five Alive.  All that was done is move one of the steel plates down a few pixels.  This seems to enforce the solution using all the skills available.

The right version is now attached.

[Nepster]

Could you please check your attachment? It seems to be exactly the same level as the original one.

[Proxima]

I made the same change on my own copy, and the normal solution still doesn't require all the skills -- depending on how the bomber and miner are placed, it can be done without the climber. However, getting the turnaround to work at all has become very fiddly compared to the level in original mechanics. Also, the backroute of bombing after this steel, then building over the small gap, is still there.

* * *

At the moment, since we seem to have reached an impasse, I've got Akseli to help me put up another poll to decide between the levels that have been proposed for removal and replacement. I've included "It's the price you have to pay" because it narrowly missed out in the last poll, and we have some new participants in the discussion, so it's worth checking how it stands now.

Please vote in the poll, everyone!

[Proxima]

Okay, thanks everyone for voting. That's helped make things a lot clearer. However, there is still one big decision I'd like to make.

The aim of this project was to compile the best original levels into a single pack that could be played through just like one of the original games. Naturally, that meant aiming for a much lower number than the 450-odd levels we started with, if for no other reason, because playing that many levels as a single game would be exhausting. And in any case, once we got started with discussing inclusions and removals, we found a great many levels that we were happy to let go of.

Still, there's nothing sacred about the number 150. I don't entirely like the idea of cutting out levels that some people have named as among their favourites. Also, looking again through the available levels, I think a couple of decent levels did badly in the original discussion because of backroutes or hidden traps -- things we can easily fix. So, because the votes were very close between all the levels, I am considering the following two options:

Option A: Stick with 150 levels.

In this case, there will be no further discussion of which levels to include: Following the vote, "A TOWERING PROBLEM" and "Five Alive" are out, "One way or another" and "Temporary peace" are in, and "Tension Sheet, Good Idea" stays in.

Option B: Enlarge the pack to 5 x 32 (160) levels.

In this case we'll need a certain amount of further discussion about which levels to include, but I don't want this to cause a long delay, so I'll make some decisions myself, wait a week or so to see what direction the discussion takes, and put up a further poll if necessary. At the moment, my inclination is to add the following levels:

Rank 1: I would add "Konnichiwa Lemming-san" and "Let's go to the moon" (both from Genesis), adding more steel to "Let's go to the moon" to prevent the backroute.
Rank 2: I'd still remove "A TOWERING PROBLEM" and "Five Alive", and add "One way or another" and "Temporary peace". That leaves Rank 2 needing two more levels. Most likely, I'd move "Tension Sheet" down and add "It's the price you have to pay".
Rank 3: I'd add "Have a nice day" and "Haunted botanical garden" (making the traps visible).
Rank 4: Not entirely sure, but there are a few "fairly good but nothing special" levels we could choose between.
Rank 5: I'd like to add "Final impediment" (fixing the backroute) and "Private room available". I know the latter is a bit annoying because of the digger assignments, but we could shrink the level so it's only 8 instead of 18. I think it has a unique concept that makes it a good inclusion.

* * *

So, how does everyone feel between these two options?

[bsmith]

I fully support option A using the results of the poll and keeping the pack at 150 levels.

[Proxima]

Okay, that's a substantial majority in favour of the 160-level option.

So, here's what we'll do. Firstly, "A TOWERING PROBLEM" and "Five Alive" are out; "One way or another" and "Temporary peace" are in. I'll post a new pack with the current selection of 150 levels, so it's easy for everyone to check which levels are in the pack at the moment.

Then, the floor is open for everyone to suggest levels they'd like to see re-added. I know we had a long discussion already, but given that we were sorting through 450 or so levels, there are bound to be a few that slipped through the cracks. This will be the absolutely final selection round, so I really want to make sure that everyone's had a fair chance to contribute to the selection. Maybe some of you have personal favourites that got overlooked; maybe we passed over some levels because of fixable problems like backroutes or hidden traps. However, for any levels that are suggested at this stage, I need to see a concrete proposal for how to fix any issues with the level.

After a week or two, depending on how discussion goes, I'll either make a final decision or, if necessary, put up another poll to decide which levels to include. If we can't find a good set of ten levels that feel like worthy inclusions, we always have the fallback option of sticking with 150.

[Proxima]

And here's Redux version 0.2.4b, with the current selection of 150 levels.

By the way, looking through the list, one more level that I think we might discard is Mayhem 28 "Mind the step". It's a long, builder-heavy level whose main challenge (in the original game) was just keeping the single lemming going for that long without making any slip-ups, which is pretty much trivialised by NeoLemmix features. At the time, it was somewhat interesting just for being so different from the rest of the game, but in Redux there are two other single-lemming levels (Lemming toast and Take care, Sweetie). Any feelings for or against this level?

[Proxima]

Here are my proposed fixes to "Haunted botanical garden" and "Final impediment".

Haunted botanical garden: Replaced all the boulder traps with visible bear traps. The level is rather easy, and I'm suggesting including it mainly for being an example of a level with great aesthetics rather than a great puzzle

Final impediment: Added another flamethower to interfere with the infamous backroute.

[Proxima]

It's the price you have to pay has been discussed a lot. Well, I finally went back to have a look at the level, and I've found what I'm pretty sure is the originally intended solution -- it uses the long walkway, all skills except the bomber, and is tricky enough to explain the level's placement in Havoc.

bsmith earlier suggested reducing builders from 3 to 1, to prevent the backroute shown on The Lemmings Encyclopedia, but this would also prevent my solution. bsmith, do you have a particular way to solve the 1-builder version in mind?

I wonder whether the level can be fixed to fully enforce the intended solution. I'm not sure that it can.

[Nessy]

I say take out Mind The Step as well.

As for It's The Price You Have To Pay the only way to really enforce the intended solution is to take out the bomber and add steel to force the miners to be used on the right side. I attached an example of where the steel would go below.

Unfortunately I don't really have any level suggestions. I know that's not what you want to hear, but I say that we allow the people that voted for the 160 pack to post their suggestions and give them a week or two like you said, and if they don't make a suggestion then we go back to the original 150 pack (or we go with all of your suggestions in the 160 version ).

[Proxima]

That version still allows the backroute where you hold the crowd between the first two pillars and use only one worker, though.

I think we'll definitely go up to 160 now; the fallback option was only if we couldn't find ten further levels that feel like they're worth including for their merit and not just to make up the numbers. I've had another look through the available levels, and now I'm pretty sure I can nominate a good set of ten even if we don't get any other suggestions. Of course, I'm still leaving the floor open for long enough that everyone has a chance to contribute.

[Proxima]

With thanks to Flopsy for teaching me how to use one of the editor's hidden features, here's my proposed edit to "Private room available" with half as many lemmings. Hopefully that tips the interest/frustration balance enough to make the level worth including?

[Nessy]

I like your edit to Private Room Available Proxima . My vote is to include it in the pack.

[mobius]

I like haunted botanical gardens too; I think it would go well pretty early in the game.

I like "Private room available" with half as many lemmings too. I think it'll work pretty well this way. Maybe even with only 10 lems but whatever. I always like the appearance of this one.

How about having a repeat (3rd repeat?) of Postcard from lemmingland; minus the miner? {oh yeah you could just make this an talisman...] nevermind.

[bsmith]

This is my one builder solution for It's The Price You Have To Pay.  A slight variation solves Nessy's variation.

[Proxima]

Thanks, I thought it would be along those lines. Thing is, that's only a slight advance on just solving the original level -- you have to come up with one small trick, mining and then bashing to make one basher go through two of the pillars. The intended solution (at least, I'm pretty sure of it) is a lot more interesting -- but very hard to enforce. I think it might be possible to enforce if NeoLemmix gets jumpers or shimmiers, but I don't want to start using new skills / features in this project. So I'd really rather leave it out, and maybe someone will use the intended solution in a level of their own.

Anyway, it's been a few days, I think it's time I put up a full list of my own suggestions for making up the numbers, to see if anyone supports or opposes any of them. Of course, the floor is still open for everyone else to suggest levels; I'll probably make a final decision this weekend.

Since ranks 1 and 2 have been ordered but the higher ranks are still fluid, it makes sense to look for two levels for rank 1, and then eight levels for the rest of the pack -- it's not important to select exactly two for each rank. For rank 1, my choices, as mentioned above, are Konnichiwa Lemming-san and Let's go to the moon. Konnichiwa is a good, simple puzzle level that introduces a useful trick (cutting through a bridge and later repairing it) by presenting a situation that looks impossible until you spot the trick. Let's go to the moon is a very nice-looking level, and the backroute under the steel is easily fixed.

* * *

For my picks for the higher ranks, I'll order them starting with the ones I most strongly want to include:

Havoc 2, Be more than just a number. This was on namida's first-draft list (page 3 of this topic) and then disappeared from Redux somewhere along the way, probably by accident, since it was never mentioned on anyone's list of suggested removals. It's a really good puzzle level and should definitely stay in.

Present 29, Private room available. Supported by Nessy and mobius. It's a highly memorable level with a unique solution concept, and the reduced version makes it much less frustrating to assign all the diggers.

Mayhem 25, Have a nice day. Middle-ranked in the last inclusion vote. A pretty fun mid-difficulty level with several viable routes. Has an interesting talisman (5 builders). As I mentioned when I first suggested including it, this level would have done badly in the vote-offs because it's not much harder than its repeat, which isn't a problem for Redux.

Present 30, Final impediment. The extra flamethrower kills the most glaring backroute; I'm not sure if there are others. If it is fixed, then it's a very hard and interesting puzzle to get back up from the ground level with the limited number of builders.

Sunsoft 20, Haunted botanical garden. Long before NepsterLems, this was inspirational as an example of what can be done with the original terrain to make a beautiful level. I believe it's worth including for that reason alone, even though the puzzle is mediocre. The hidden traps are not a problem as they can be replaced with visible traps without spoiling the aesthetics.

Tricky 27, Island of the Wicker People. This level hasn't been considered for inclusion yet, just because it wasn't on namida's first-draft list, compiled from levels that got through the first round of vote-offs. But it's possible that some good levels did badly in the vote-offs just because they were up against a strong group. Anyhow, Wicker People has always stood out as a pretty interesting and challenging Tricky level, and I'd like to see it included.

Taxing 1, If at first you don't succeed. This also missed out on namida's first-draft list, possibly because of the floor backroute, which we could fix. The main puzzle is pretty tricky and has a couple of good, satisfying solutions.

Sunsoft 8, Is this a circus? A neat puzzle where it looks like you don't have enough builders, until you challenge your first assumptions about where some of them go. It's true that the early Sunsoft levels have several puzzles with a small number of builders and miners, and Anxiety and Evacuating a coal mine (both already in Redux) are superior to this level. Still, I think it's interesting enough to make the cut.

Mayhem 26, The Steel Mines of Kessel. It's true that namida's talisman could simply be applied to the earlier version of this level. But ignoring the talisman, the level itself is a very different experience from its repeat, and definitely a good and challenging level (as long as we're not talking about the watered-down DOS version or the broken Mac version). The only thing against it is that Genesis has a similar level, Don't leave any Lemmings, which is also in the pack. So I wouldn't be too upset if this doesn't make it in.

Let me know what you think about any of the above levels

[Dullstar]

In regards to Steel Mines of Kessel: I believe it was bomber heavy, yes? I also think the original gave access to blockers. If it DOESN'T give blockers, then the level is trivialized by NeoLemmix and should not be included. Other than that, I don't really care.

I do like If at first you don't succeed, even with the floor backroute.

[Nepster]

Final Impediment still has the shortcut, but it's rather fiddly now.

EDIT: And a second solution...

[Nepster]

And three more solutions...

[Proxima]

Following discussion in IRC, I am considering this version of the level. The extra flamethrower is still there, and I've removed all the bashers and diggers.

Code: [Select]

<Nepster> My biggest problem with a lot of the solutions is that they aren't elegant and just fiddling around.
This change would remove most of the "fiddling around" solutions and hopefully enforce a particular, elegant solution. The resulting level would be a lot harder than the unchanged level, but considering this level's position in Genesis (Present 30, and remember that Present was originally after Sunsoft) I think it was meant to be a very hard level.

There's no urgency about deciding which version to use; we will almost certainly include this level, and it will go in one of the later ranks, so the decision can wait until we're arranging those ranks. So, does anyone else have an opinion about which version to go with?

[Proxima]

Proposed fix to "If at first you don't succeed".

By the way, I am very nearly ready to make final decisions and go back to the task of ordering, so if anyone has any last suggestions for levels to include, this is the time

[Proxima]

Okay, here's version 0.3.0. "Mind the step" is out, all the suggested inclusions are in, and I've rearranged ranks 1 and 2 to accommodate them. "Izzie Wizzie" and "Tension Sheet" were moved down to rank 2, while "Down the tube" was moved up. For ranks 3, 4 and 5, I've used Nepster's ordering for now, with a few levels moved about to fill the gaps where Nepster's ordering would have me use a level I'd already placed elsewhere. A few levels ended up slipping through the cracks, and I threw them in at the end of Lunatic just so I could get the build finished I'll get on with a proper arrangement of these ranks soon.

This version includes a few other changes. Earlier, we reduced some Tame and other levels from 20-of-all to 10-of-all, to avoid there being more bombers than the number of lemmings you can lose. I've put back the 20 builders, since some of these levels have some routes that use a lot of builders, and it's an easy skill for new players to run out of. ("Lemmings in the attic", of course, retains its original 50 builders.)

I've fixed the trapdoor on "Upside-down World", which namida should never have flipped And I've restored the terrain block on "Worra load of old blocks", making the traps visible by removing some of the steel.

[ccexplore]

In regards to Steel Mines of Kessel: I believe it was bomber heavy, yes? I also think the original gave access to blockers. If it DOESN'T give blockers, then the level is trivialized by NeoLemmix and should not be included. Other than that, I don't really care.

The Amiga version that is being considered for the remake has 10 builders, 10 blockers and 10 bombers.  The "watered down" DOS version gives 20 of each three skill types instead of 10 (and may have more lenient save requirements? don't remember off top my head).  The "broken" Mac version has the same skills as Amiga version, but retained the same save percentage with fewer number of lemmings out (so lowering the number of lemmings you can lose), and also has some terrain differences past the main part of the level that cause like 3 (IIRC) additional bombings to be required, making it much less forgiving than intended relative to the save requirement.

It is "bomber heavy" but does not require timing the bombers.

[namida]

In regards to Steel Mines of Kessel: I believe it was bomber heavy, yes? I also think the original gave access to blockers. If it DOESN'T give blockers, then the level is trivialized by NeoLemmix and should not be included. Other than that, I don't really care.

It did originally give blockers. However, timed or untimed, solving it with only the builders and bombers is no easy task (at least on the 10-of-each-skill version).

[Proxima]

And here's version 0.3.1, which is a serious attempt to arrange rank 3. Ranks 4 and 5 are still disarranged.

I had a couple more candidates for rank 3 than I could fit in, and selected "Upside-down World" and "Down the tube" as the levels to leave for the next rank.

[Proxima]

Version 0.3.2. "The Long Way Around" got left out by accident, so I've re-added it in rank 3, moving "Oh No! Squish" up.

"SEGA Four" now has the "SUNSOFT Special" music.

[Proxima]

So, I've just had a play through the first three ranks in the latest version, and I'm pretty happy with the ordering -- of course I'll wait for others to give feedback before calling anything final 

As I was playing, I was thinking about talismans, and I'd like to note down the ones I thought up so I don't forget them later Several of these are just old 100% challenges, but working out how to do them would still be interesting for new players -- and several of them are harder and more interesting in NL because it doesn't have the old glitches

After we've finished ordering the levels, I'll start a proper discussion of which talismans to include. For now, I'll just list everything I've thought of

List of talismans (click to show/hide)

Get a little extra help: 100% with only builders (this is more interesting if we revert to 10 builders)
Downwardly mobile lemmings: Solve with 1 skill
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% with no destructive skills
Lemming toast: Solve in 1 minute
Where do you see lemmings?: 100% with only builders
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
Let's be careful out there: Solve in 1 minute
The Crankshaft: 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%

PoP YoR ToP: Save 100%
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Plethora of Presents: Save 100%
Perseverance: Solve in 30 seconds
Cascade: Save 100%

LEMTRIS: Solve with no bashers
Mutiny on the Bounty: Save 100%
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%

The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 6 builders
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers

It's hero time: Solve with no climber

[bsmith]

The 0.3.2 nxp is much larger than 0.3.1, is there a way to use a more compressed or smaller song file for the Sunsoft music?

Gentle 29 errors out with "The graphic set dirt_md.dat could not be found".  The _md versions of the graphic sets are not included with Neolemmix be default anymore.  Opening this level in an editor and changing the graphic set to the regular dirt one should fix this and keep the graphics in the pack consistent.  I would also check the other new additions.

[Proxima]

Version 0.3.3. I've converted the Sunsoft music to Ogg.

I've attached the dirt_md style as well. Next time Nepster's in chat, I'll discuss with him what we should do about this.

[nin10doadict]

I still feel like I did something I shouldn't have with 'Final Impediment.'
I'm thinking maybe just have the water under the middle column in 'If at first you don't succeed.' I like the normal solution I use of sending an athlete up to build the way then mining through the third pillar and bombing through the stairs. It feels a little less janky than what I had to do here.

On another note, I finally solved 'No justice for the hero.' No idea why that one took me so long... Made me feel like a total moron the whole time.

[Nessy]

Sorry for my absence on this thread lately.

I really like the ordering of all the levels. The only level that really stood out to me as being out of place was Down The Tube. Maybe it's just me, but I don't feel like that level should be one of the last levels of the final rank, especially after Let's Go Camping, No Added Colours Or Lemmings and Lemmings' Ark strictly from a difficult-for-a-beginner perspective and not a popularity perspective. However, I don't think we should move it into another rank because that's going to cause more of a headache figuring out what to add to replace it and what to take out and such. Maybe switch it with another rank 5 level? Maybe with Final Impediment or Fall And No Life Part 2 like you suggested a while back?

What does everyone else think about this?

And nin10doadict you should never feel like a moron , but personally I found No Justice For The Hero to be a tough level to figure out the very first time you play it. That and With A Little Help From My Lem, whose difficulty we underestimated when we went through the list for rank 2.

[Proxima]

As I said, ranks 4 and 5 haven't been ordered yet. Down the tube was one of several levels I was trying to fit in rank 3, and since I couldn't fit them all in, I threw it in at the end just to get the build finished. It's definitely not intended to stay there

nin10doadict: Nice catch on Final impediment, I'll fix that in the next update.

[Nessy]

Sorry about that . Disregard everything I said

Okay, so I really like the ordering of the first two and three ranks, and the talisman as well especially the gold ones that can even give people familiar with those levels a good challenge.

[Proxima]

Thanks for the vote of confidence

So, here's version 0.3.4, with a draft ordering for rank 4. "Across the Gap" moved down to rank 3, with "I have a cunning plan" moving up.

I thought of three more talismans, which would give us a nice round 30. Of course, talismans are far from final; I'll open a proper discussion on those once we're done with ordering.

New talismans (click to show/hide)

Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%

As it's now been two weeks since the decision to have 160 levels, and no-one has suggested any other candidates for inclusion, I am now closing that discussion: we will stick with exactly the 160 levels currently in the pack.

[Proxima]

And here's version 0.3.5, with a draft ordering for all five ranks. Please give feedback and criticism so we can work towards a final ordering together.

After feedback from Wafflem's stream last night, I moved "With a little help from my Lem" up to Zany, moving "Don't leave any Lemmings" down. I've moved "Out, away from the tune" down so that "Which one are you trying to get?" could move up to early Lunatic -- its title is so long that it only displays correctly if it has a single-digit level number.

I'm not very happy about the heavy concentration of crystal-style levels in the middle of Lunatic (four out of six in levels 19-24), but mid-Lunatic does feel about right for all these levels, so maybe it's okay. However, please let me know if you feel any of these levels are misplaced.

[Proxima]

With Akseli's help, I've put up a new poll to ask what we should do with the level "Final impediment". When Nepster tried out my first backroute-fixed version (with the extra flamethrower and no other changes), he found a few different solutions (see his posts at the top of page 26), some of which were fiddly and inelegant brute-forcing. The level has a really beautiful solution, and it would be nice to enforce it, but I'm not sure whether we should make drastic changes. So, I'm putting it to the vote.

If we keep the skillset and make "no bashers, no diggers" a talisman, we can still make other slight changes to discourage brute-forcing; Nepster suggests making the steel under the exit a bit thicker. There would still be a variety of possible solutions. Alternatively, we could turn it into a pure puzzle level with a single solution by trimming the excess skills.

So, let's see what everyone thinks

[Proxima]

Meanwhile, here's version 0.3.6. Following feedback from Nepster in chat, I've moved "The Long Way Around" down to rank 2, returned "Don't leave any Lemmings" to rank 3, and moved "Lemmy in the cold, cold ground" and "Lemming Tomato Ketchup Facility" a bit earlier within the rank.

I've also made a necessary fix to "Steel Block Party" that was mentioned much earlier in the thread, but hadn't been done up to now.

[bsmith]

I spent some time today going through 0.3.5 looking a individual levels.  There are some I feel needed changes, so I made some and attached the results in the zip file.

Konnichiwa Lemming-san, Haunted Botanical Garden, and Temporary Peace converted to use the regular Dirt set instead of dirt_md
Boulder traps changed to beartrap kind in Haunted Botanical Garden to make them visible
I made a different way of making the traps visible in Worra load of old blocks.  I think this looks nicer than Proxima's version.
A shortened version of Tension Sheet, should cut about a minute of mining/bashing time off the solution.
I really don't like the water where Proxima put them in If at first you dont succeed, so I made my version to block off the floor backroute.
A version of Lets Go Camping without the digger and some terrain changes to seal a backroute and make the trap on the right visible.

Also some talisman ideas of my own:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Perseverance: No Diggers
Come on over to my place: No Floaters
Great Lemming Caper: No Bashers
Flow Control: Save 10/21 lemmings
A Beast of a Level: either save 100% with 3 of everything or just complete the level with 2 of everything
Lets Be Careful Out There: save 27/30 with only 3 blockers and 3 builders
Spot of Bother: 100% without builders
Lemtris: 100% without builders
Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: Assign skills to only one lemming
Menacing: Use no more than 7 builders
Time waits for no Lemming: save 28/30 without using floaters

[Proxima]

A Beast of a Level: either save 100% with 3 of everything or just complete the level with 2 of everything

No reason not to make the talisman 100% with 2 of each

[Flopsy]

Since I've very much stayed out of the discussion of the making of this pack, I've decided on LPing this pack on its completion.

I'm just announcing it on here for all to know, I know a lot of people in the IRC know this already (unless your name is mobius! )

I'm doing this so the community can see the resulting pack be played by a Lemmings player who is experienced and has never experienced the SEGA genesis levels or the exclusive levels before.

[Proxima]

I've terminated the previous poll (What to do with Final impediment?) because there was already a clear majority (5-1), in favour of keeping the skillset and having "no bashers, no diggers" as a talisman.

I'm going to take it that this view applies to other levels as well -- allow multiple solutions in general (but eliminate trivial solutions like on "Let's go camping"), and if there is a particularly elegant solution, reward it with a talisman.

The question, then, is where exactly we draw the line between "acceptable" and "trivial enough to be fixed". We've already decided this for a large number of levels, so I want to highlight a couple that are still undecided:

Dolly Dimple. The intended solution is almost certainly the one using the small underplatform (else why would it be there?). There are at least two other solutions: sending everyone over the side, or sealing off a corner and digging in the corner with the last lemming. All of these use interesting tricks, so I'm inclined to leave them all in.

If at first you don't succeed.... We've agreed to eliminate the floor route. bsmith's proposal still allows another solution that I find almost as trivial (bash two pillars, mine the third one). My proposal of adding water would eliminate this as well (we could add terrain blocks under the pillars, if them being in mid-air is seen as a big problem).

The Great Lemming Caper. Keeping one lemming back by making him a blocker seems to me to negate the concept of this level, so I would rather prevent it (by removing the blockers). It's almost certain that using a blocker wasn't intended, because (in original Lemmings) the level comes earlier than No added colours or Lemmings.

* * *

It's awkward to hold two discussions at once, but I don't want to lose the momentum going at the moment on talismans, so I've put up a new poll asking (roughly) how many talismans we should aim for. Mine and bsmith's lists between them have around 40 talismans, which is quite a lot, and we may want to rein them in and cull some of the less interesting ones. After this poll, I'll go through the lists, select the talismans that are most interesting and should definitely go in, and open up discussion on the others.

* * *

Discussion on level ordering is still open. In particular, I'd like feedback on the ordering of ranks 4 and 5, which have had the least feedback so far.

[Nessy]

Okay, so now I can talk about rank 4 and rank 5

Overall, I like the ordering. My only comment is the placement of This Corrosion in rank 5. I might be the only one with this opinion but I say to switch this level with No Added Colours Or Lemmings. I just personally feel like No Added Colours Or Lemmings is too early and more challenging than This Corrosion. I also like having Fall And No Life Part 2 as the last level because after much thought it's the best choice from a pure difficulty perspective.

For Dolly Dimple I agree about leaving the level untouched as the "other solutions" wouldn’t cross a beginner's mind.

For If At First You Don't Succeed I say remove the "use two bashers and then use a miner under the stairs" solution. The water under the pillars should fix that, and I say to add a pillar in the water to make the pillars look like they are coming out of the water instead of floating above it, but it really isn't a big deal either way and it's just my personal design preference . As long as the backroutes are fixed.

For The Great Lemming Caper I say leave the skillset untouched. A beginner wouldn't think to hold the second lemming back with a blocker, and using that trick can make a good talisman like the one bsmith suggested (no bashers).

[Proxima]

One point I forgot while making the above post: The dig-step-dig trick used in the "over the side" solution appears again a few levels later as the main solution to Worra load of old blocks. So it may be worth taking it out of Dolly Dimple to make the levels more different. (And for the record, this was the solution I found first when I was solving the levels as a kid.)

If we decide to keep the blockers in The Great Lemming Caper, then "no blockers" (or perhaps "6 skills total") is much more worthy of being a talisman.

One more level where we should think about de-backrouting is Everyone's a hard nut, but I can't comment on this too much as I need to work out what all the different solutions to the level are, first

[bsmith]

Why is bash-bash-mine through the pillars a backroute for If At First You Don't Succeed?  When not using the bush under everything route (which I agree is a backroute) I solve this level by using the space between the last pillar and its right side stairs for containing the crowd and save 100%.  Difficultywise, this was Taxing 1 in the original game; its not supposed to be too hard.

One more level with a potential backroute is The Needs of the Many.  Bombing at the extact top of the climb allows a basher to go all the way through the terrain without needing to use the two builders to get on top first.  It is an easy fix by adding a little bit of terrain near the top, but it may also be a case of close enough to the intended solution.

I say definitely keep the blockers in The Great Lemming Caper.

It may be possible to enforce the solution that uses the subplatform in Dolly Dimple by changing the climber to a floater.

I can't say much about Everyone's a Hard Nut since I don't know what might have been intended.

[Proxima]

Let's drop the loaded term "backroute". In most cases we don't know the developers' intentions, so really, the concern is to do what we can to improve the quality of the levels, without changing them so much that they become our own levels. Of course, that requires a judgement call as to where to draw that line.

The bash-bash-mine solution to Taxing 1 is (in my view) worth taking out because it's a trivial solution to a level that's a much more interesting puzzle without it. It sounds like you're thinking of a more complicated variant, but you can just block with the second lemming, have a hero lemming go through the pillars and build over the gaps, then bomb the blocker. That's not Taxing difficulty; that's Fun difficulty.

Regarding Dolly Dimple: removing the climber would leave in the "seal off the corner" solution. (We could make "no climber" a talisman.) The change I'm contemplating is making the sides of the "box" taller so that the dig-step-dig solution doesn't work any more.

I'll post about Everyone's a hard nut once I've done some more investigating on that level. However, I'll say now that what I hope to enforce is one of the left lemmings travelling up to release the right lemming through the one-way wall.

[Proxima]

Okay, here's a replay for Everyone's a hard nut, showing one possible variation of what I take to be the intended solution. The two "pathfinder" lemmings each has a distinct role (on account of one being a climber and one not), and the third lemming is rescued through the one-way wall. I have a spare digger, which could be switched with a basher.

[Proxima]

Addendum concerning The Great Lemming Caper: Nessy has produced a video showcasing several different solutions to this level. On balance, I think it's best we leave it as a level with multiple interesting solutions rather than trying to enforce one; so I'm in favour of keeping the blockers and having either "no blockers" or "6 skills total" as a talisman.

However, I think we should still consider reducing the destructive skills to 2 of each, which still allows a wide range of solutions, but prevents the rather ugly brute-force solution where one lemming rapidly mines and digs at the start to get deep enough to turn the other.

[bsmith]

I think the only solution we lose out on by restricting The Great Lemming Caper is my no bashers solution.  Half on Nessy's solutions already fit in the 2 of each destructive skill limit and the others can be tweaked by substituting a miner for a basher.  So, lets go ahead and trim the skillset.  The fastest solution is still the catch the climber solution, which can be the talisman for the level.

I attached my replay for Everyone's a hard nut.  The third lemming is rescued through the one way wall but uses a much different route than Proxima's solution.

I did find a solution to If At First You Don't Succeed that did not corral the horde of lemmings.  I still don't like the extra water since it seems like a rather drastic change.  I still think we should go with my version and then remove the blockers and bombers (which I have not used in either solution I have).

[Nepster]

The Great Lemming Caper [...] The fastest solution is still the catch the climber solution, which can be the talisman for the level.

Yes, but catching the climber takes a bit over 50 seconds, while there are other solutions that solve the level within 53 seconds. This difference is far too small for my taste to add this talisman.

[Proxima]

My proposed wording for the talisman is "solve with 6 skills total", not making any reference to time. (Alternatively, "no blockers", although this still has several solutions. If the poll ends up favouring multiple talismans per level, we could additionally have "no bashers", which can still be done with 2 of each destructive skill.)

Interesting solution to Hard nut. I find it less attractive than mine because it doesn't use the full level area (mine builds over the trap in the top-right), but I wouldn't say it's a backroute or needs to be fixed. I've attached an example of the kind of solution I think certainly is a backroute. (I haven't yet done any work on fixing this backroute.)

I don't want to remove the bomber and blocker from If at first, because firstly, there are valid solutions using them, such as one posted by (I think) nin10doaddict earlier in the topic. Also, this doesn't prevent the "single hero lemming" backroute (although it does make it harder, so maybe it's not a backroute any more). After bashing the first pillar, have another lemming dig at the top of the stairs, containing the crowd; later use a builder to cross this gap.

[Nepster]

Proxima was interested in talismans to "Flow Control" on IRC, so I am posting there a replay that saves 17/21 lemmings.

[bsmith]

17/21 is impressive, best I figured out was 10/21.

Also I have spent more time with If At First You Don't Succeed and have complied 10 solutions to the original version.  This could be Nessy's next episode in The Many Solutions Of series.  At this point I think that no alterations should be made to this level.

[Nessy]

Also I have spent more time with If At First You Don't Succeed and have complied 10 solutions to the original version.  This could be Nessy's next episode in The Many Solutions Of series.  At this point I think that no alterations should be made to this level.

Awesome! I can make this into the next video in the series, and give you all the credit for them of course.

[bsmith]

I have one more solution for If At First You Don't Succeed. This one is the only solution I have found that uses only one basher and does not bash under the three pillars. So now I propose this: Add a steel plate under each pillar to close off that route and make a talisman for using only one basher while solving the level.

[Proxima]

The talisman I have in mind for If at first you don't succeed is "save 100% with 6 builders". Actually, it's not hard to tweak your solution so that it satisfies both conditions

At the moment, the voting regarding number of talismans is very evenly spread, so unless the situation dramatically changes, we will be going for a middle option (which means prohibiting multiple talismans per level, since there are plenty of good ideas for talismans without doubling up).

[Proxima]

Okay, the votes are almost a perfect even spread, so we'll try to be somewhat selective about the talismans we include, and we won't have multiple talismans per level; but we won't cut down to a small number either.

The next question to answer -- and I'll ask this informally rather than as a poll for now, although I'll put up a poll if necessary -- is should we aim to have roughly equal numbers of bronze, silver and gold talismans, or should we rate each one individually regardless of where that gets us?

I think the most interesting talismans are those that require a substantially different solution from the solutions one would be likely to come up with when solving a level normally, so I'll look through the lists of suggestions so far, note the ones that are most interesting and will certainly go in; then we can haggle about the rest (In some cases, I'll note that we should definitely have a talisman for a given level, but two or more have been suggested, so we'll have to pick one.)

Definite talismans (click to show/hide)

A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%

A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Either solve with no diggers, or solve in 30 seconds
Cascade: Save 100%

LEMTRIS: Either solve with no bashers, or save 100% with no builders. (Is 100% with no bashers possible?)
Flow Control: Save 14/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%

The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Either save 100% with 1 basher, or save 100% with 6 builders
Upside-down World: Save 100%

It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
(Water processing plant: Save 100% -- not confirmed in NL yet)
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

That's already 30, so I think we should be pretty selective about increasing the list beyond that. Are there any (either suggested so far, or new ones) that anyone feels particularly strongly should get onto the list?

[namida]

FWIW, my usual practice with larger packs is about a 50-30-20 split between Bronze / Silver / Gold respectively. I also usually judge the difficulty (when picking a color) of them relative to the level's difficulty, not relative to the overall game's difficulty.

[Proxima]

Should have done this earlier. To help those who want to give feedback on the talismans, here's a list of those suggested so far that are not on my "definite" list, with a few comments:

Possible talismans (click to show/hide)

Get a little extra help: 100% with only builders
Very similar to "Where do you see lemmings?" 100% only builders and "One way or another" only builders, so I'd include at most one of these. Also similar to the "Final impediment" talisman, which is on the definite list.

Downwardly mobile Lemmings: Solve with 1 skill
Very easy. I thought it might be nice to include this just to show off the fact that it can be done, but it's not really worth including.

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% with no destructive skills
An attempt at getting the challenge for the repeat level, "Tribute to M. C. Escher", to work on the earlier level. But if the condition is just "no destructive skills", it has several more solutions; if it's "builders and 1 floater only" then the condition is much more precise than any of our other talismans. Alternatively, we could have a much easier talisman for this level: 100% with no builders.

Lemming toast: Solve in 1 minute
Pretty easy. Not sure if it's worth including.

Where do you see lemmings?: 100% with only builders
See comments on "Get a little extra help".

Let's be careful out there: Solve in 1 minute
An easy challenge that amounts to "Take any variant of the shortcut instead of the long way round". Overlaps with the talisman for the repeat, "Come on over to my place", which requires a particular variant of the shortcut. Might still be worth including. bsmith's alternative talisman for this level, lose-3 with 3 builders and 3 blockers, enforces the long way round and also some rather fiddly timing.

PoP YoR ToP: Save 100%
Pretty easy, so not a definite talisman. But we're a little short on easy ones, so I may well include this.

Plethora of Presents: Save 100%
Same as above.

Mutiny on the Bounty: Save 100%
I'm disinclined to include this, as I realised it doesn't require much beyond a normal solution to the level.

Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: Skills to only one lemming
This talisman type won't be supported in new-formats NeoLemmix. I've asked Nepster and namida about this, and it's unlikely to be re-added, at least in the immediate future.

MENACING !!: Solve with 7 builders
Normal solution, with a bit of efficiency and use of the existing terrain in getting up to the exit.

Time waits for no lemming: Lose 2 with no floaters
Normal solution with a bit of crowd-timing. Could add this for an extra easy talisman.

[Proxima]

More thoughts on some of the proposed talismans. (I really hope at least one person has some feedback here, so I don't have to decide everything by myself....)

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% no builders is not as trivial as I first thought*, so I think we'll go with this. The "Tribute to M. C. Escher" 100% solution is better-known, has been made into a custom level that enforces it, and would be rather out of place as a talisman on the easy version.

Perseverance: My suggestion (solve in 30 seconds) isn't very good, you can achieve this with a digger pit solution. bsmith's no diggers is better.

And then there were four: Could have a talisman for 100% in 2 minutes, pretty easy but does enforce multitasking.

LEMTRIS: 100% no bashers is possible, so we'll go with this.

If at first...: I slightly prefer bsmith's "1 basher" to my "6 builders", as the latter repeats the kind of thinking needed for "The Crankshaft".

Poles Apart: Overlooked this one, but 100% is a good talisman. Earlier in the thread, bsmith suggested a talisman for the ceiling route (not sure how you would enforce this -- fewer destructive skills?) but I'm not sure whether this is even possible in NL.

Water processing plant: I can't confirm 100% in NL, and I looked up a video and it seems to rely on solid sides in the Genesis version.



* Redux has 10 of each skill on this level, so you can't dig the whole block away.

[Proxima]

Again, apologies for the overlapping discussions. I've been looking at de-backrouting Everyone's a hard nut, which as far as I know is the only level remaining that needs de-backrouting work.

Here are a couple of possibilities:

Version 1: Added steel to prevent the third lemming simply digging down. It's still possible to take an "all three lemmings on the bottom" route by turning the third lemming, having him build over to the top-left hatch, then building again to turn round. However, maybe this solution is discouraged enough in this version that we could leave it?

Version 1b: Same layout, but replace the miner with a basher to make it harder to turn the third lemming.

Version 2: Added more steel to completely seal off the third lemming. This definitely prevents the backroute, but it's rather drastic.

Any preferences, or other suggestions?

[bsmith]

Most of the items in the Definite list I have no issues with including; anything from that list I don't mention is good to go.

Perseverance: I much prefer the no digger talisman.

LEMTRIS: either one is good but we don't need both, I don't have a strong preference.

I have a cunning plan: I assume you put this one in for its pass-through blocker solution, easy but not obvious.

If at first you don't succeed: I prefer the one basher talisman for this one; as mentioned earlier this can be done with the 6 builder constraint added to it.  Since we are not fully de-backrouting Final Impediment, can I assume that a lightly modified version of If at first you don't succeed will be used - a piece steel under each pillar to stop the bash under everything to make the talisman worthwile.

The Great Lemming Caper: I assume you want to enforce the catch a climber solution.  No blockers still allows another solution.  The six skill assignments restriction you suggested earlier would (I think) enforce catching the climber, but in this case I recommend dropping the release rate so that the execution does not need to be pixel perfect.

Get a little extra help: The talisman idea was 100% with only 10 builders. I do think this is a nice one to include, not too builder heavy for being a builder only solution.

Downwardly mobile Lemmings: Nice idea but probably too easy to be worth including.

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: The talisman idea I had for this one is 100% with only 10 builders and 1 digger.  This should enforce a solution similar to M. C. Escher 100%.  Otherwise the no builders talisman is a good option since the skillset no longer has enough diggers to just go all A.T. on the block.

Lemming toast: Nice but too easy.  If we want a talisman for this level I suggest use only 1 builder.

Where do you see lemmings?: A 100% builders seems a lot more tedious, no I would rather not include this.

Let's be careful out there: We already have a fast-route talisman for the harder repeat.  I suggested the 3 blocker + 3 builder since it does enforce the long route.  If we do have a talisman for this level I think it should enforce the long route.  I like my idea and want to see it included but I do realize it is not a very exciting talisman.

PoP YoR ToP, Plethora of Presents, MENACING !!, Time waits for no lemming: All these are variations on the regular solutions.  These seem like things to look at if we decide the other choices don't make the list of talismans long enough.

Izzie Wizzie lemmings get busy: I thought this was a good idea, bit if the engine will no longer support it then there is really no way to include this one.

And then there were four: I was thinking about this one too, the needed multitasking may make it worth a talisman.

Poles Apart: I think the ceiling route relied on direct drop, which was taken out of Neolemmix a while back.  Otherwise 100% seems like a good talisman.

Water processing plant: I don't think 100% is possible in Neolemmix.

[Proxima]

Thanks for the feedback So, I propose the following:

* Adopt all the talismans on my "definite" list, except Water processing plant. I miscounted in my original post, so that's 28.
* For levels where I listed alternatives: choose "no diggers" for Perseverance, "100% no bashers" for LEMTRIS, "100% 1 basher" for If at first you don't succeed, "no blockers" for The Great Lemming Caper. (The alternative "6 skills total" doesn't enforce the "catch a climber" solution, and in fact still allows a relatively trivial variant of the blocker solution. So I prefer "no blockers", which does allow multiple solutions, but is more interesting than the blocker solution.)
* From the "possible" list, adopt "100% 10 builders" for Get a little extra help, "100% no builders" for Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming, "100% 2 minutes" for And then there were four, and "100%" for Poles Apart.

This gives us 32 talismans, a nice number to have given that there are 32 levels per rank.

* * *

We then need to choose which to make bronze, silver and gold. Looking through the list, I think the hardest talismans relative to a normal solution -- and thus the most worthy of being gold -- are these:

Cascade: Save 100%
Flow Control: Save at least 14/21
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers

Some others that, to me, are borderline between silver and gold:

ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%
It's hero time: Solve with no climber
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

Quite a hard choice What about everyone else, which ones would you select?

[Nessy]

Sorry I wanted to write a post yesterday but I got sidetracked by work and forgot .

I like the definite talisman list and your proposers in your previous post so I have no further suggestions/changes for them.

My two cents about which ones should be gold or silver:

- ONWARD AND UPWARD: Bronze
- Have a nice day: Gold (because new players naturally use many builders so limiting the number to as low as five is Gold worthy)
- ROCKY ROAD: Bronze
- It's hero time: Silver (not Gold because some people use the no climber solution as their first solution)
- The Great Lemming Caper: Silver (not sure about this one so I said Silver)
- Final impediment: Gold

- Perseverance: Silver
- LEMTRIS: Silver (not sure about this one either)
- If At First You Don't Succeed: Silver
- Get A Little Extra Help: Bronze
- Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming: Gold (using no builders already limits a lot of things you can do, and the 10 of each skill even more)
- And Then There Were Four: Bronze (because multitasking is something people most likely do on this level already)
- Poles Apart: Silver

As for Everybody Is A Hard Nut I need to investigate this further, so I'll make another post about that later.

[Proxima]

So, it looks like we're close to agreement on the selection of 32 talismans, which I'll repost here for the convenience of having them all in one post:

Current selection of talismans (click to show/hide)

Get a little extra help: Save 100% with only builders (reverting the level to have 10 builders)
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: Save 100% with no builders
A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%

A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Solve with no diggers
Cascade: Save 100%
And then there were four: Save 100% in 2 minutes

LEMTRIS: Save 100% with no bashers
Flow Control: Save 14/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%

The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 1 basher
Upside-down World: Save 100%
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Poles Apart: Save 100%

It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

(By the way, Nepster mentioned in chat that he's too busy working on the new-formats version to give feedback on talismans.)

Looking through the list, I feel that there are a lot more medium (silver-worthy) than particularly easy or particularly hard talismans, so I don't think we'll go with either namida's 5:3:2 ratio or an even distribution. I'd rather like to have exactly 8, 16, 8 for the neat numbers, but I won't be too dogmatic about it.

Since we've started on selecting gold talismans, let's finish that off first. So far, between my list and Nessy's, we have seven:

Cascade: Save 100%
Flow Control: Save at least 14/21
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

If we want to go up to eight, I think these are the strongest candidates for the last one:

ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%. This would be my pick. It turns out that to save 100%, you have to optimise over the whole level, carefully selecting which skills to use in each part so as to have the skills you need left for other parts. It's a really hard and satisfying challenge. Nessy voted this bronze, but admitted in chat that he hadn't tried solving it himself, and underestimated the difficulty.

Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: 100% no builders. Nessy (above) voted this gold, although I don't agree as it feels much easier than the other gold candidates. It's true that KYHO is a very easy level just to solve, so the talisman is a huge step above a normal solution, but perhaps that shouldn't be taken too heavily into consideration for levels at either extreme of the pack.

(Alternatively, if we change our minds and use the "100% builders and 1 floater only" talisman, this is definitely gold-worthy.)

A Beast of a level: 100% 2 of each skill. Earlier in the thread, bsmith rated "any% 3 of each skill" as already silver-worthy, and "100% 2 of each skill" is an even harder version of this. Also, it's a lot harder than solving normally, given that it's a Fun level. Still, I'm not sure myself whether this is a gold-worthy challenge.

Any preferences between these three, or alternative proposals?

[nin10doadict]

I'm not sure because I haven't really tried most of them, but Cascade 100% felt too easy to be gold to me. I figured it out in about 5 minutes. Maybe I was subconsciously drawing up a memory of the 100% solution that I had seen long ago, but that was over 10 years ago so I doubt it.
Either that or I'm actually getting better at the game but I kinda doubt that too.

[Nessy]

I say that ROCKY ROAD should be the last Gold talisman. Like you said I merely assumed and underestimated that level.

As for Keep Your Hair On Mr. Lemming I say to keep the "no builder" talisman. It's just a personal preference.

[Proxima]

Akseli has also been trying out the talismans, and he sent me this list of how he would rate them:

Akseli's ranking (click to show/hide)

I didn't solve yet DON'T PANIC, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Postcard from Lemmingland, The Lemming Funhouse and Come on over to my place, but I don't want to postpone you from seeing these other solutions already.

In my opinion from the easiest to the hardest (so not related to the difficulty of solving normally the level in case, but the absolute difficulty of these talisman solutions):

Bronze feeling ones:

Get a little extra help
The Crankshaft
And then there were four...
Turn around, young lemmings
Lemmings in the attic
A Spot of Bother

Maybe bronze, maybe silver:

Poles Apart
The Great Lemming Caper
If at first you don't succeed...
Upsidedown World
I have a cunning plan
The Steel Mines of Kessel

After this very similarly difficult bunch of solutions, so  the "easiest" is not very far from "hardest" so you don't need to focus on the order too much:

Flow Control
It's hero time
Have a nice day
Which one are you trying to get?
Creature Discomforts
Perseverance
Scaling the Heights
Cascade
ROCKY ROAD
ONWARD AND UPWARD
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming (no builder)
A Beast of a level
Final impediment
LEMTRIS
Across the Gap

I hadn't gotten round to posting my own opinions on which ones should be bronze, but I agree with Akseli's six except maybe Lemmings in the attic -- the digger/basher staircase is much easier to pull off in NL, but may be tricky for new players to think of. Still, if we want to have eight bronze talismans then I think we should consider that one, The Lemming Funhouse, and I have a cunning plan; the others on Akseli's "maybe bronze" list feel too difficult to me (especially The Steel Mines of Kessel, which was the last talisman I solved in the pack).

As for golds, it looks like we're agreed, at least, on Cascade, ROCKY ROAD and Final impediment, but have a lot of disagreement on the others I'm busy this week, so I'll leave it until the weekend to make a decision and post a new version. But I do want to keep this moving, as Nepster has mentioned that new-formats NL is on the horizon and he'd like to have Redux ready to ship with it; and Flopsy is looking forward to LPing the project.

[Nepster]

I just solved the 100% talisman for "The Lemming Funhouse" and I am not a fan of this one. The solution is pretty much the standard one, just a lot more fiddly and extremly precise.

[namida]

The Steel Mines Of Kessel (assuming this is still "no blockers" and still based off the Amiga version), only bronze or maybe silver? I would've rated this one Gold for sure - after all, people literally thought the level was impossible under NeoLemmix when the blockers were removed (until they were subsequently readded a few versions later). Has an easier solution been found?

[Proxima]

Yes, Akseli sent me this replay. I'm tempted to block this route off by adding steel; it would make the normal solution, as well as the talisman solution, much more interesting.

[bsmith]

If I remember correctly, the blockers were temporarily removed from The Steel Mines Of Kessel at the same time as bombers were changed to be untimed.  I think part of the uproar about the change was suddenly having to learn a new solution with the new bombers.  In hindsight having the untimed bombers makes a no-blockers solution easier to execute; it may have been gold worthy with timed bombers but not with now with untimed bombers.

Do not add steel to stop the route Akseli found.  In my opinion The Steel Mines Of Kessel is a lot like If at First You Don't Succeed.  The point is NOT to find a specific route, rather the point is just to be creative with a restricted skillset to solve the level.  In Kessel, the restriction is that your only excavator is the bomber; similarly, the restriction in Succeed is that you have fewer bashers than a straightforward solution would use.  These are levels in the original Lemmings; back then everyone, including the developers, was just trying things out and learning strategies.  Editing the levels to enforce certain routes (other than major backroute removal) undermines how they were designed.

Finally, the proposed talisman distribution of 8-16-8 bugs me a little.  I think 12-12-8 might make a nicer split.

[Proxima]

Yeah, I probably overreacted. The attached route is also possible and a lot simpler than my first solution. I think we'll just leave the level as-is and make it a silver talisman. (Also, I like the effect of the spine in the rocks; it would be a pity to spoil that with extra steel.)

* * *

I'm going to put together and release version 0.4.0 over the weekend. This is just to show where we're up to; nothing is set in stone yet except for the selection of levels. Still, I'd like to make final decisions on level ordering, backroute fixes and talismans fairly soon, so please have a look at the new version (when I post it) and tell me whether there's anything you think needs changing.

bsmith: I'm not dead set on my proposed 8-16-8 split, but if we go up to 12 bronze as you suggest, which ones should it be? At the moment my inclination (after some feedback from Nepster in chat) is to go with Akseli's six, plus If at first you don't succeed and I have a cunning plan. Given the fixes to If at first, the talisman isn't much harder than solving the level.

An alternative would be to add a couple more of the easy talismans that have been suggested, for a 12-16-8 split. How do you feel about that?

* * *

Regarding the general point: I agree that in most cases (with a few exceptions like No added colors, Fall and no life) the developers did not have a specific intended solution. Still, this is a Redux, not a flat remake; we're allowed to improve the levels if we choose. I think there are a few select cases where being more specific about what solutions are acceptable is a clear improvement to the level. Others may disagree or draw the line in a different place, and that's fine; that's why we're having the group discussions. But I can't agree that we have to stick exactly to how the original levels were designed. We agreed a long time ago on things like time limit removal, reduction of lemming counts, and making hidden traps visible; I think backroute removal is a natural and important part of the same process.

More specifically, I've thought again about If at first you don't succeed. I think the "single hero lemming" solution is trivial enough that it's important to prevent it; and I can see two ways of doing this. One is the version I've already posted, with water under the pillars (and we could add terrain blocks so they're not suspended in mid-air). The other is to use bsmith's suggested version with extra steel blocks, and reduce builders to 6. I'll see what others have to say before making a final decision or, if necessary, putting this to a poll. For now, the water version is still in 0.4.0, but this is not final.

(As already mentioned, the talisman "Save 100% with 1 basher" is still possible with only 6 builders.)

I've highlighted Everyone's a hard nut as another level in need of de-backrouting (at least, removing trivial solutions; there are still several possible ways to solve the puzzle). So far there hasn't been any feedback on this; I hope there will be.

[bsmith]

I'm not sure which ones I would put at bronze for a 12-12-8 split, but my sense of aesthetics should not dictate the distribution.  From the majority of people weighing in, it seems 8-16-8 is more natural.  I have not devoted a lot of time to the talismans myself, so I don't have a strong opinion yet.

***

I think we are butting heads since we both draw the line in different places about how far to change the original levels in the redux.  I'm not trying to say that we can't make changes but I feel since these are the classic levels that I don't want to go too far with making changes.  I am more amenable to skillset changes than terrain changes in this regard.

For If at first you don't succeed, of the two options you suggest I much prefer the one to add steel and reduce the builders to 6.  At least this way the level retains its visual appearance.

***

I just looked at your proposed changes to Everyone's a hard nut on the previous page.  Of the three options I think 1b (add a steel plate + swapping the miner to an extra basher) is the best option.

[Nepster]

Regading If at first you don't succeed: Can someone please explain why we would need to reduce the number of builders to 6, if we added steel blocks below the pillars, where the water is in the current version?

[bsmith]

Proxima wants to cut a set of solutions he considers unintended by using water under the pillars.  I believe that makes too large of a change to the level, since we do not know what if anything was intended.  My position is we should restore the original terrain and add steel under each pillar to stop the bash under everything backroute, which leaves most solutions available.  The steel + six builders is a possible compromise which stops many of the routes Proxima dislikes without making a substantial change to the level design.

[Proxima]

Specifically, the attached solution (recorded on the unmodified Taxing 1), which is just too simple and takes all the charm out of this level.

The other question I'd still like some feedback on before releasing 0.4.0: should we prevent the over-the-side solution on Dolly Dimple (by making the walls taller)? At first I thought no, but then I remembered that this solution is pretty much the same as the intended solution to Worra load of old blocks, which is just eight levels later in the Redux, and it might be worth avoiding that repetition.

[Proxima]

The other question I'd still like some feedback on before releasing 0.4.0: should we prevent the over-the-side solution on Dolly Dimple (by making the walls taller)? At first I thought no, but then I remembered that this solution is pretty much the same as the intended solution to Worra load of old blocks, which is just eight levels later in the Redux, and it might be worth avoiding that repetition.

Addendum: This change wouldn't totally prevent an over-the-side solution (think The Razor's Edge), but it would make it harder. And the Razor's Edge trick appears nowhere else in the official levels that I know of.

[mobius]

Don't remove any solutions from Dolly Dimple. One of the coolest things about that level is finding out how it has so many solutions after you solve it for the first time; it's so hard for new comers.

[Proxima]

The proposition wasn't to remove any solutions, but to make one of them harder, so that solvers would be less likely to find that one. And again, this is only on the table at all because I noticed the duplication with Worra load of old blocks.

However, I've just taken another look at Worra load, and it can also be solved with a solution more or less identical to the "under the platform" solution to Dolly Dimple, so the whole question is rather pointless So Dolly Dimple won't be changed.

I think that wraps up the de-backrouting discussion; it's still open for anyone to make further comments / suggestions, but I'm happy with the conclusions we've reached, and I don't know of any other levels that need work. Just to be open about everything, I should mention that I've made slight touches to a couple of other levels:

Steel Block Party: Moved the steel under the entrance one pixel right, preventing digging on the very edge without using a basher, which would trivialise the level.

Acrophobia: Moved the exit platform down a bit so you can't fall safely onto it from the bottom of the terrain above.

[Proxima]

Sorry, I didn't manage to get the update done over the weekend after all. I'll try to get it done as soon as possible. To make this easier, I'm reposting the list of talismans, now with bronze, silver and gold indicated:

List of talismans (click to show/hide)

Get a little extra help: Save 100% with only builders (reverting the level to have 10 builders)
Keep your hair on, Mr Lemming: Save 100% with no builders
A Beast of a level: Save 100% with 2 of each skill
Lemmings in the attic: Solve with no builders
The Crankshaft: Save 100% with no builders
Turn around, young lemmings: Save 100%

A Spot of Bother: Save 100% with no builders
DON'T PANIC: Save 100%
Perseverance: Solve with no diggers
Cascade: Save 100%
And then there were four: Save 100% in 2 minutes

LEMTRIS: Save 100% with no bashers
Flow Control: Save 15/21 or more
KEEP ON TRUCKING: Save 100%
Postcard from Lemmingland: Solve with no floater
ONWARD AND UPWARD: Save 37/40
I have a cunning plan: Solve with no builders
Have a nice day: Solve with 5 builders
Across the Gap: Solve with 1 builder
ROCKY ROAD: Save 100%

The Lemming Funhouse: Save 100%
If at first you don't succeed...: Save 100% with 1 basher
Upside-down World: Save 100%
Come on over to my place: Solve with 1 builder
Poles Apart: Save 100%

It's hero time: Solve with no climber
Which one are you trying to get?: Solve with no floaters
Creature Discomforts: Save 100%
Scaling the Heights: Save 100%
The Steel Mines of Kessel: Solve with no blockers
The Great Lemming Caper: Solve with no blockers
Final impediment: Solve with no bashers or diggers

In case anyone wants to give more feedback on talisman rankings, I'll add that the ones I'm least certain about are these:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If at first you don't succeed...: Currently ranked bronze, although Nessy considered it silver. I would consider ranking it up, but I don't think any of the currently silver ones deserves to be ranked down.
Which one are you trying to get?, Creature Discomforts: These are the two I'm least certain about ranking as gold. If we were to rank one or both down, the ones I'd most consider ranking up are DON'T PANIC, KEEP ON TRUCKING, Scaling the Heights, LEMTRIS and Across the Gap.

[Proxima]

Okay, I just need to have another look over the recent changes to make sure everything's in order, and then I'll post version 0.4.0.

I replayed all the talismans I was doubtful about, and decided that Which one are you trying to get? does not deserve to be Gold. I've downranked it, and upranked LEMTRIS in its place. (Of the others I listed as potential Gold candidates, I'm now convinced that DON'T PANIC, Scaling the Heights and Across the Gap don't belong there. I'm less certain about KEEP ON TRUCKING, which is very hard -- but NeoLemmix's skill shadows help a lot.)

EDIT: Akseli says KEEP ON TRUCKING should definitely be Gold, so... I don't know any more

[Proxima]

Okay, version 0.4.0 is here! This is the first version to include talismans, and is therefore fully playable and fully featured! Not everything is necessarily final, but this is still a huge step towards getting the pack finished.

Since I couldn't decide about the last gold talisman, I've upranked KEEP ON TRUCKING for now and put up a poll for which to downrank in its place (including the possibilities of downranking KEEP ON TRUCKING itself, or just going with nine gold talismans). Just to make things perfectly fair, I've included all the currently gold talismans, even though there are some that I feel certain should remain gold. We'll see how the voting goes

Other changes in 0.4.0:

* Included a MOD of the Sunsoft Special music (posted by Wafflem earlier in this very topic, so I'm sorry I missed it), reducing the filesize again.
* Let's go camping: I've finally gotten round to including the fixed version (no digger, 1 extra basher).
* Tension Sheet, Good Idea: Included bsmith's reduced version, cutting down the amount of bashing time. Since the water in the middle is gone in this version, there's also one fewer builder.
* If at first you don't succeed: Included bsmith's version with extra steel.
* Fixed the music rotation so the six ONML tracks are in the Amiga order.

There are a few things remaining to decide. I'll invite discussion on the forum first, and if necessary, put up further polls. I don't want to take too long over any of these, as we are so close to having the pack finished!

* Is everyone happy with the decisions made so far? I know there are some disagreements, especially over ordering and talisman ranking, but we can't perfectly satisfy everyone, so does everyone at least feel the decisions have been made fairly and reached a reasonable compromise?
* Dirt levels originating from Genesis lemmings: Should we keep these in the dirt_md set with its distinctive colouring, or change them to the standard dirt set? Nepster has said that dirt_md will be included by default in new formats NL, so this is purely a matter of aesthetic preference.
* Levels appearing in both Genesis and ONML: which version should we use? There was a little discussion of this earlier in the topic, but all that was concluded was that we should not decide on the basis of graphic set balance (because all the sets in question are close to balanced anyway) but aesthetic preference again. We could use Genesis for some of these levels and ONML for some others.
* Any other miscellaneous changes to levels? Under this heading come things like bsmith's change to Tension Sheet, anything that improves the playing experience without being a drastic change to the level. A couple that have come up so far:
** Move the exit to the far left on Snuggle up with a lemming?
** Remove the pointless and rather ugly OWW on Cascade?
** Remove decorative terrain at the edges of levels? Alternatively, restore decorative terrain on levels where namida has already removed some?

That's quite a lot, but I hope people will chime in with their opinions

[Nessy]

* Is everyone happy with the decisions made so far? I know there are some disagreements, especially over ordering and talisman ranking, but we can't perfectly satisfy everyone, so does everyone at least feel the decisions have been made fairly and reached a reasonable compromise?

I am happy with all the decisions made so far.

* Dirt levels originating from Genesis lemmings: Should we keep these in the dirt_md set with its distinctive colouring, or change them to the standard dirt set? Nepster has said that dirt_md will be included by default in new formats NL, so this is purely a matter of aesthetic preference.

I really don't have a preference for this one, but if I had to choose my personal aesthetic preference would be to have the dirt_md style for the Genesis dirt levels because that was how it was in the original version and I want to keep those aesthetics.

* Levels appearing in both Genesis and ONML: which version should we use? There was a little discussion of this earlier in the topic, but all that was concluded was that we should not decide on the basis of graphic set balance (because all the sets in question are close to balanced anyway) but aesthetic preference again. We could use Genesis for some of these levels and ONML for some others.

* "Time Waits For No Lemming" / "Lunch Time"

* "The Stack" / "Keep All Enemies Out"

* "ROCKY VI" / "Watch Right And Left"

* "Dolly Dimple" / "Dangerous Balcony" : Even though Dangerous Balcony may be more visually interesting I say Dolly Dimple in its brick style is too iconic for me despite its minimalism.

* "Worra Load Of Old Blocks!" / "Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste"

* "And Now The End Is Near" / Exodus!

* Any other miscellaneous changes to levels? Under this heading come things like bsmith's change to Tension Sheet, anything that improves the playing experience without being a drastic change to the level. A couple that have come up so far:
** Move the exit to the far left on Snuggle up with a lemming?
** Remove the pointless and rather ugly OWW on Cascade?
** Remove decorative terrain at the edges of levels? Alternatively, restore decorative terrain on levels where namida has already removed some?

* I say don't move the exit in Snuggle Up With A Lemming. It might be too much of a change.
* I have no objections to taking out the OWW in Cascade. It doesn't really add anything to the level.
* I would leave the decorative terrain alone: if namida took it out in a level then leave it out and if he didn't take it out then leave it alone.
* I personally do not like the change made to Tension Sheet: Good Idea. There was just something about the water pit in the middle that even though it didn't add anything to the level I liked it there. However, I would just leave the changed version there, as I'm probably the only person with this opinion. The functionality of the level is there and that's the most important part.

[bsmith]

Overall I am satisfied with the decisions so far.

-Talismans-
For the gold talismans I am torn between demoting LEMTRIS, Have a Nice Day, and Creature Discomforts; the others certainly all belong at the gold level.  I went with Creature Discomforts in the poll.

-Let's Go Camping-
I think Let's Go Camping still has a backroute: Block with the first lemming somewhere to the right, one lemming exits and the builds over the exit and heads to the left to turn around and bash under everything including the blocker.  Stopping this route is as simple as extending the steel on the left side of the acid pit to meet the top of the terrain.

-dirt_md-
Regarding dirt_md, I think all the dirt levels should have a consistent look.  All four original graphic sets have an _md version, it just happens that the two dirt styles are the only pair that has a readily visible difference.  If people really want to see the Genesis dirt style we still have the Extra Levels nxp.

-Genesis remakes-
For the Genesis remake levels I found a difference in "Worra Load Of Old Blocks!" / "Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste".  In Worra, it is possible to do a Dolly Dimple splatform; the turnaround builder needs 23 bricks to hit his head, using 2 builders.  But in Leftovers it takes 25 bricks, adding a third builder; this makes the Dolly solution impossible.  We had already debated changing Dolly Dimple to distunguish it from Worra but decided to leave it be since both solution methods work in both levels.  On that basis I say we choose 'Worra Load of Old Blocks' over 'Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste',

I assume that the six pairs Nessy listed are the only pairs.  Then the only other difference in preference that I have is to choose "And Now The End Is Near" over "Exodus".

-Other Changes-
For Snuggle up to a Lemming, I recall a suggestion to remove the big middle structure to shrink the level.  The tower-like structure on the far left (including the base) then would be placed to the left of the exit leaving a level that is about 1.5 screens long.  That is a change I think is suitable.

I am fine with removing the unnecessary OWW in Cascade.  The stuff to the left of it could also all be trimmed.

I think that if there are any other changes to levels it would be cutting out some of the extraneous terrain on what often times would be one-screen levels.  Namida did some of that when making the various nxps, sometimes right to the point to contain the level in one screen; Downwarldy Mobile Lemmings is an example.  I think that in general we could do that for some of the larger chunks of extra terrain.

[Proxima]

-Let's Go Camping-
I think Let's Go Camping still has a backroute: Block with the first lemming somewhere to the right, one lemming exits and the builds over the exit and heads to the left to turn around and bash under everything including the blocker.  Stopping this route is as simple as extending the steel on the left side of the acid pit to meet the top of the terrain.

Thanks. I'll fix this in the next update.

-Genesis remakes-
For the Genesis remake levels I found a difference in "Worra Load Of Old Blocks!" / "Leftovers Are Not Always A Waste".  In Worra, it is possible to do a Dolly Dimple splatform; the turnaround builder needs 23 bricks to hit his head, using 2 builders.  But in Leftovers it takes 25 bricks, adding a third builder; this makes the Dolly solution impossible.

Not impossible; it just doesn't save 100%. Neither version of the level requires this.

One issue is that where the level is currently placed (Zany 28) the title will get cut off, resulting in "Leftovers are not always a wast". (This wasn't a problem on the original Genesis version, since it displays the level title on a separate line from the level number.)

One possibility is to use the Genesis level with the ONML title. Both titles are rather memorable, so it's hard to choose between them.

[SQron188]

My opinions here:

* Keep the Genesis levels in the dirt_md set as a homage to the originals as well as to have more variety.
* I prefer "Value Each Moment" and "Lunch Time"  in their Genesis versions and the rest in their ONML versions.
** "Snuggle up with a Lemming - the original, I guess? The change wouldn't exactly make the level any more demanding.
** OWW in "Cascade" - insignificant enough that I can't say. I didn't even notice it playing through the level for the first time.
** I'd like to have as much architecture kept as possible. It sounds trivial at first, but it can be an unexpected source of inspiration.

Can't say much more without having kept up with the topic up until this point and/or turning levels upside down at random.

[Proxima]

Thanks to everyone for contributing to the discussion. I'll post a summary of decisions, and re-list still open questions, after the voting closes.

One thing, quickly -- it looks like there's a strong consensus for "Lunch time". This level has a bit of extra terrain on top of the wall (compared to "Time waits for no lemming"), making it slightly easier. Should we keep or remove this?

[SQron188]

I'd say keep the terrain. IMO it's nicer and makes the central platforms look less like ordinary geometrical shapes.

[Dullstar]

In regards to dirt_md:

I'd say the md tilesets should be all or none; either all of the Genesis levels should use the _md tilesets, or none of them should. Fire and Marble blend in somewhat without a side-by-side comparison, but the remaining sets have obvious differences: Here are some examples using screenshots from the Genesis tilesets thread. (The levels are similar but non-identical, with the Genesis levels being modifications to the original levels made to show off the recolors I made).

In order from what I feel to be the most different to least different:

Dirt (click to show/hide)

Crystal (click to show/hide)

Pillar (click to show/hide)

Fire (click to show/hide)

Marble (click to show/hide)

It probably makes the most sense to change them to the normal sets. I like how some of the _md sets look (especially crystal - those are such nice shades of blue IMO) but I don't think it makes much sense to use two versions of the same tileset in one levelpack.

[namida]

One issue is that where the level is currently placed (Zany 28) the title will get cut off, resulting in "Leftovers are not always a wast". (This wasn't a problem on the original Genesis version, since it displays the level title on a separate line from the level number.)

The level number and title are displayed on seperate lines in the new formats version, so this won't be an issue once new formats goes stable.

[Proxima]

Okay. The vote ended inconclusively, which isn't a huge surprise given not everyone has had time to play all the talismans. I'm going to make an executive decision and downrank Creature Discomforts.

For the other questions, I've wanted to keep things moving quickly as we are very near the end of the project, so I've also asked those present in IRC and on Arty's stream for feedback, in addition to the responses above. The results are:

* Everyone seems happy with the ordering, backroute fixes and talisman choices. I've noticed one more backroute, which should be easy to fix.
* A decent majority prefer to use dirt_md for Genesis levels, so we'll go with that, and I'll re-import some levels for consistency.
* Everyone's fine with removing the one-way wall on Cascade.
* A substantial majority prefer keeping decorative terrain, even on the levels where namida has removed some. I also favour this, even though it means more work for me, so I'll try to get this done soon, though probably not for the very next update. However, I'm going to concentrate on the wide levels, like Turn around, young lemmings and Have a nice day; for levels like Downwardly mobile lemmings I think it is a good idea to keep to a single screen if this doesn't remove too much.
* Because we're keeping decorative terrain, I won't remove the middle structure on Snuggle up to a Lemming. I also won't move the exit since I don't think we have a majority in favour of that.

Genesis / ONML levels:

We have four votes on these so far, so I'm going to close discussion on the ones where all four of us agree:

* Lunch time (not Time waits for no lemming) (would still like feedback about the extra terrain)
* Dolly Dimple (not Dangerous balcony)
* ROCKY VI (not Watch right and left) (Watch right and left Part Two is in Redux, but that's okay; Redux is explicitly a "best of" pack so players will be able to figure out that Part One just didn't make the cut. Same applies to SEGA Four.)

For the others:

* We're split 2-2 on And now the end is near / Exodus, so I'll make that the next poll. I really hope Exodus wins, because I love the solemn, a little creepy, atmosphere it has in the sand set.
* Similarly, I strongly prefer Keep all enemies out over The Stack, so I'll hang on a little longer to see if anyone chimes in. If I'm alone in this then I guess I'll concede
* I can't decide between Worra load of old blocks and Leftovers are not always a waste, and I'd like to hear whether bsmith has changed his view after I pointed out the under-platform solution is possible on both levels. However, it does mean the gameplay is slightly different between the two, so I might marginally favour Worra load for that reason.

And now, there are a couple more issues I'd like feedback on:

* I spotted a slight backroute in Tension Sheet. The intended solution is to dig before the gap so the builder hits the terrain, which is a neat linchpin that I don't think appears anywhere else, at least not in this pure form. However, in NL you can mine into the steel after the gap to turn round. In this case, we know for certain which was intended because miners don't turn on steel in L2. One possible fix (assuming we keep bsmith's version) is to replace the second miner with a digger.
* It's all a matter of timing: Should we duplicate the middle hatch, restoring the 1-2-3-2 ordering of the original game? We could do this for all 3-hatch levels, but really I'm only worried about this level because it makes a crucial difference to the solution, although both versions are solvable.
* Special graphics levels: Keep the (full-length) Amiga versions, or use the reduced Genesis versions? Earlier in the topic, ccexplore suggested using Genesis for Beast and MENACING, since the full versions just add more trees / tentacles, but using Amiga for Awesome and BeastII, whose reduced versions do cut out part of the play of the level. I would agree, but I want to hear what everyone else has to say.

If I get a good amount of feedback on the above questions, we could have the entire project wrapped up and ready to go in another week or so! Huge thanks to everyone who contributed

[Nessy]

* My decision is still to keep Exodus.
* I'm perfectly fine with Keep All Enemies Out over the The Stack even though I suggested the latter in a previous post. Both of them are equally memorable.
* If Worra Load Of Old Blocks! is different gameplay-wise, even if it's by a little bit, then we should keep that one over the Genesis version.
* I say don't remove the decorative terrain in Lunch Time. It was mentioned that it made the level slightly easier but as long as the same core solution is there.

* For Tension Sheet I say we replace the second miner with the digger. That turnaround trick is too unique to have it be skipped.
* If the 1-2-3-2 change in It's All A Matter Of Timing is possible we should do it just for the sake of being true to the original design.
* I say to keep the unabridged versions of all special graphic levels. This is mostly a personal preference but I just feel if we are keeping the decorative terrain we should leave these levels untouched as well. However, at the same time if the suggested levels are shorten I have no objections.

[SQron188]

In this case I shall (partly change my mind and) be in favour of:

+ "Keep all enemies out"
+ "Worra load of old blocks"
+ "Tension Sheet": one of the miners -> digger
+ "It's all a matter of timing": not sure, but keep it as is just to stick to the original, I guess?
+ Special graphics levels: Amiga versions if Genesis ones are cut in some manner.

I hope this helps.

[Proxima]

The poll for And now the end is near / Exodus stood at 5-0 in favour of Exodus, which is strong enough to call it early. Also, it seems we've reached a decent consensus on most of the remaining questions: we will use Keep all enemies out and Worra load of old blocks, I will fix the backroute on Tension Sheet, Good Idea, and I will duplicate the middle hatch on It's all a matter of timing to keep the original behaviour.

The one question left to resolve is Amiga v Genesis versions of the special graphics levels. I'm seeing some support for both sides, so I've put this question to a final poll, which will end this Sunday (48 hours from the time of this post). By then, I should have all the editing done, so that will also be the release date for the finished level pack!

Huge thanks yet again to everyone who's been part of this.

[bsmith]

Do you have stuff planned for the cosmetic items like title screen graphics and custom rank graphics?

Also, when I was leading this project I used the Author field of the level info to put in the game/version the level was originally found in. Do you plan to something similar?

Then the scrolling text crawler at the bottom of the title screen.  I put in a line recognizing myself and namida as project leaders.  Is that something you would include, now crediting three project leaders?

[Proxima]

Thanks, those are good final questions. I wouldn't be able to do the art myself, but I'll see if anyone feels like doing some for us. It's not vital to have it in place for the first release.

Yes, that's a good use of the Author field. A couple of the "authors" are problematic, though, given that the field is limited to 16 characters. How do we abbreviate "Lemmings 2, Classic Tribe" within that limit? Should levels from the original game be credited as "Original Lemmings"  or "Amiga Lemmings"?

And yes, I'll add that to the scrolling text.

* * *

With the vote now at 6-2, it's safe to say we will be using the reduced Genesis versions for Beast and MENACING, Amiga for the other two.

[Proxima]

So, we're using the Genesis versions of A Beast of a level and MENACING !!. One thing I just noticed is that these have slightly different stats from the Amiga versions:

A Beast of a Level
Amiga: 100 lemmings, 80 to save, RR 50. Skills: 20 of each
Genesis: 100 lemmings, 80 to save, RR 80. Skills: 20 of each

MENACING !!
Amiga: 80 lemmings, 70 to save, RR 50. Skills: 10 of first four, 15 of last four
Genesis: 80 lemmings, 40 to save, RR 87. Skills: 20 of each

(For the record, there are no stats or skillset differences in the other two special graphics levels.)

So, do we use the Genesis stats, since they belong with that version of the level, or use the Amiga stats, since the reason for preferring the Genesis versions wasn't to do with the skillset, but the shorter levels? I won't put up a poll for this, as I want to get this pack finished by, at latest, tomorrow. So if anyone has an opinion, please chime in Otherwise, I'll just go with the Amiga stats, since I don't see why MENACING !! should get a much lower save requirement, nor extra skills that aren't really needed.

There are also a couple more skillset issues I've noticed in this last round of editing. Again, I'll just go ahead with these changes unless anyone voices disagreement. (EDIT: Got feedback in chat supporting these changes, so I'm going ahead with them.)

Let's go to the moon: This has 10 of each except bashers, which were removed to prevent the short route. However, they don't completely prevent it, which is why I added steel. With that done, the absence of bashers doesn't serve any purpose, and the skillset would look neater if I put them back.

Out, away from the tune: I'm inclined to remove the blocker, which is only there so as to make the bomber untimed.

[Proxima]

And I've finished adding the version each level comes from to the "Author" field. In case anyone's interested, here's the final breakdown:

Amiga Lemmings: 47
Genesis Lemmings: 46 (of which 4 shared with SNES Lemmings)
Oh No! More Lemmings: 36
Holiday Lemmings: 12
PSP Lemmings: 6
Lemmings 2 (Classic): 3
Budget Amiga Lemmings: 3
NES Lemmings: 2
Prima Publishing Demo: 2
Macintosh Lemmings: 1
ZX Spectrum Lemmings: 1
SMS Lemmings: 1

The one level unique to SNES Lemmings, Ohayo Lemming-san, was not used, and no levels were used from Covox Lemmings.

[Dullstar]

Amiga stats are fine with me.

The main appeal of the Genesis version is less unnecessary space where you're just waiting for lemmings to complete tasks (bashing/walking)

[Proxima]

Version 0.4.1. This is almost, but not quite, finished. I haven't yet looked through to see on which levels namida removed decorative terrain, and copied the originals back in; but everything else is done. That is:

* Fixed the backroutes on Let's go camping and Tension Sheet, Good Idea
* Replaced And now, the end is near and The Stack with their Genesis equivalents. (I forgot Time waits for no lemming; I'll do it in the next update.)
* Duplicated the middle hatch on It's all a matter of timing
* Made skillset changes to Let's go to the moon and Out, away from the tune
* Replaced A Beast of a level and MENACING !! with their Genesis equivalents, but with the Amiga stats / skillsets (with reduced lemming counts).
* Used levels' Author field to indicate the version that level comes from.
* Added the following to the scrolling text on the main menu:

A compilation of favourite levels / from the original Lemmings games, / including ONML, Genesis and others. / Edited by bsmith, namida and Proxima / with help from the forum community.

(I hope the above text is okay with everyone?)

I hope I haven't made any mistakes in indicating levels' versions of origin. I'll have a look over it myself, but it would be good if someone else could have a look too. Then I just need to fix Time waits for no lemming and levels with decorative terrain, and we're done

[Proxima]

And we all know what namida's favourite number is, so it's fitting that the final finished version should be 0.4.2

It turns out that namida removed far less decorative terrain than I thought, and I only needed to restore three levels: Get a little extra help had the right edge trimmed too much, and was restored just by expanding the size of the level (the terrain was still there). For Have a nice day! and Save Me, I had to paste in untouched copies of the levels -- fortunately I had no trouble getting hold of these, since mobius and I once made a challenge pack in which exits and entrances were moved into the decorative terrain.

So, this is it. After 18 months of discussion and a fair amount of editing work, Lemmings Redux is finally complete.

I'm now going to start a topic for the finished pack in Level Packs; any further discussion should go there. Flopsy has decided to make Redux his next Let's Play, and eventually there will be the small matter of converting the pack to new-formats but for now, I'm going to take a well-earned rest.

[Proxima]

One more slight change. I've set the RR on Triple Trouble to 70, which addresses two issues:

* The reduced lemming count makes it harder for solutions that depend on getting work done before the last top lemming comes out. With this change, the last top lemming spawns 1062 frames after the first lemming, which is comparable to the original (1014 frames on versions with 80 lemmings, 1274 with 100).
* The ABCABC order, with RR 80, puts the first two top lemmings only 39 frames apart, making the first digger unnecessarily precise in order to trap the second lemming. With the original ABCB order, these two lemmings were 52 frames apart; the RR 70 puts them 54 frames apart.

Instead of this change, I could have restored the original lemming count and ABCB order, but I preferred the RR change for a couple of reasons. ABCABC order is standard in NL for 3-hatch levels, and we want to get the player used to this. We made an exception for It's all a matter of timing, because the order completely changes how that level behaves. When it's only a matter of altering the spacing of two specific lemmings, the RR change is good enough. Secondly, I don't like giving 3-hatch levels a lemming count that's not a multiple of 3

[Flopsy]

First day on this pack and I'm finished the first 3 ranks already and managed to win 17 out of the 20 talismans that I've encountered already.

I'll try to get the first video up on YT asap

[Flopsy]

I'm locking this topic now, please direct all discussion to the release topic

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3542.0