Revenge of the Lemmings - Level selection and ordering for v5

[kaywhyn]

Lem Dunk is possible to save all but one. It would almost certainly be possible to save 100% if the trapdoor order were 1 - 3 - 2, haven't verified this yet.

However, this depends on the RR being 25 in NeoLemmix, which is slower than the slowest possible RR in other engines, so that's something we would have to change anyway.

Ah, didn't notice the 25RR for the level in the v4.0 RotL pack.

WillLem voted for keeping the Mazu / Clam / IS levels (and Betcha can't save is by IS) so I'm pretty sure he does want it considered for v5 

The lists I posted are just there to document my favourites, really. Of course I'd like to see them included, but I'm equally happy to leave level selection entirely up to Proxima; I'll ultimately back whatever he decides upon, even if it means some of my picks don't make the cut.

You were saying?

It's a very tricky question, exactly how far it's okay to change other people's levels. As mobius listed in his post above, in v4 he changed a few levels to 10-of-all that weren't originally, and on the one hand, that is changing them from the author's intent, but on the other hand, the pack benefits from having some easy levels to start with. So I'd love to hear more people's opinions on what to do with those levels, and with the start of the pack in general.

This is a tricky one indeed. On the one hand, I definitely think the pack can do with having these easy X-of-everything levels at the start, but on the other hand, it does feel a bit strange to me with them being modified levels of the authors from their original intent. If the decision is fine for the pack to have repeats, then sure, keep the X-of-everything version of the harder repeat, I guess. If we don't want repeats, then I guess put the skill tutorial levels instead. It really can go either way quite honestly, and I don't have a strong preference for either one, though I think I'm leaning more towards the X-of-everything route, and I'm not saying that because I myself won't be making skill tutorial levels for my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack

I am completely against changing levels just to make 100% possible. That you can't save 100% on every level has always been part of the game. "Betcha can't save" is designed so that saving even one is difficult, and that shouldn't be messed with.

Completely agree here with both points, even the first one despite how I generally go for save all's as much as possible It's not L2 anyway, where it's been proven that it's possible to save all on all 120 levels of the game and even then it's still possible to get gold if you lose some depending on the level/tribe. I digress though.

My own level list and thoughts on the picks/preferences of those who posted still to come. Maybe at the end of the week or so. 

[mobius]

if a tie breaker is needed I could change my vote...

As I look over the levels I went through back then I'm reminded of how many good and how many not so good levels there were... as I mentioned before I initially was going to include levels that were present in other large packs but people at the time were against it. I feel like the pack should represent the best of the community, not sure it always does that based on some of the decisions I made; for example I wanted to get as many authors in the pack as possible. Which again seems a bad decision in hindsight, if some of those levels weren't quite as good as ones that got removed.

And as another example; Clam specifically made his 5th pack for this project [not this iteration of it but back in around 2008]. Of course I tried fitting those levels into the early rank of the first version and a lot of people said they felt wonky/too difficult for the first rank.

[Proxima]

A tiebreaker will not be needed. As I said, the poll isn't binding, it's just to gauge where community opinion lies. If opinions are split, that just means I can follow my own judgement.

[Proxima]

Voting has closed. Opinions are divided but slightly in favour of keeping Mazu/Clam/IS levels out of the pack.

Since starting the poll, I had two more thoughts myself. One is that the argument about RotL being a snapshot of the best of the pre-NL era doesn't really hold water; if it were, then it should include levels from DoveLems, PimoLems, Lemmings Plus I and other large packs of the era. These levels were never included -- precisely because they were already in other large packs. That suggests that if the RotL project had got started today with no previous versions, Mazu/Clam/IS levels would never have been considered.

My other thought is that it's over ten years since the pack was originally put together; we are now building for a new audience, one that is used to a world where the Mazu/Clam/IS packs are just part of the NeoLemmix universe. In producing a new pack for such players, a pack full of repeats probably isn't what they want.

So (although I didn't vote) I am mostly inclined towards excluding these levels. But I don't think we should just blanket ban them, in case they help to make up the numbers or smooth out the difficulty curve. Instead, I think what I'll do going forward is stipulate that for each author that has their levels in a separate NL pack, at most five may be repeated in RotL. That isn't set in stone, of course; we'll see how it works out going forwards.

The next task is to put together a proposal for the level selection and ordering for the first rank. I'll try to get that done as soon as possible.

[Proxima]

Thanks to WillLem, my spreadsheet with the v2 and v4 levels is now hosted on Google Docs: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gSs0lsAdHntkJ8ffSTbwg2yBkmqZFFTNGA07KD9LjEI/edit?gid=874540697#gid=874540697

As I play through the levels, I am colour-coding the lines to make it easier to make the selection for the first draft of the new pack. Green indicates a level that's almost certainly in; yellow indicates one that's likely in but has some concerns (and I'm using the "Other comments" column to be more specific for these); pink indicates one that's very likely out (but of course, further feedback can always make us reconsider).

Feel free to add comments directly to the spreadsheet if that is easier!

[WillLem]

Thanks for sharing the spreadsheet, Proxima! This is a great way for everyone to see what's going on with the pack in real-time.

After speaking with Proxima on Discord, it's become clear that Goal #1 is to curate the pool of levels.

The best thing anyone can do to help right now is to play through this version of RotL and provide feedback, share replays, list your favourite levels, list your least favourite levels, and comment either here in topic or directly on the spreadsheet.

Keep up the good work!