New Level Pack - Lemmings Faithful

[Swerdis]

Progress was slow during the past weeks due to familiary obligations, but I still somehow managed to solve "Lemmings Faithful" just before the end of the year.
It was a good decision to leave my well-worn paths for this pack and tried to attack the talismans. I still think the talisman-solutions should be the "real" solutions as only they show the beauty of most of the levels.

My favourite rank is clearly the final one, "Treacherous". It's also the most difficult one and contains the best levels in my opinion. I especially liked Treacherous 4,8,9 and 10. Another candidate for the best level is Simple 8, I also really like Safe 5 and Tricky 1. While I enjoyed the latter one, I think that Tricky is the weakest rank.

Finally I have to praise the tilesets again. They are all great, my favourites are probably "Lush" and "Hoard".

All my solutions can be found here: https://www.youtube.com/@Swerdis

[92Dexter11]

Hi Swerdis, glad you've enjoyed my pack and happy new year!
Sorry for the late reply, I was waiting for you to finish the pack before making a full reply, then I got a bit preoccupied with the holidays.


Here are the solutions I have the most to say about:

Spoiler

SIMPLE:
Fields of Gold - Really creative solution using a stacker staircase to go over the arrows at the start, well done!

House of Fun - This one's always a pleasure to watch people solve due to it being very varied with a limited skillset for the talisman.

Alabashter - Another very nice solution, nice work using a miner to make the staircase at the last obstacle.

Methane Meadows - People often get confused about the many restrictions for the talisman for this level. I should've made the talisman more explicitly clear - it's classic skills only, so no skills that were added in NeoLemmix.

Stepping Stones - Completing this one with only using 3 jumpers is quite impressive. The intended solution is to use the jumpers to jump from platform to platform, but I don't feel the need to enforce it too much, since this pack and especially this rank is supposed to be open ended. Well done!

Dodgy Plumbing - The basher staircase, as well as the miner/digger staircase in the second half of the level to obtain the talisman was fun to see!



SAFE:
Let's Get Down to Business - Another solution which was fun to watch. Very nice idea using the compression method to keep all the Lemmings from spreading out too much and losing time.

Diamond in the Rough - This talisman was originally gold, until I realised that it's much easier if you let the last Lemming collect the cloners, much like you did here.

Enchanted - WOW! This isn't actually the intended solution for the talisman, but it's seriously impressive. Well done!

Doors and Gates - Another level I love watching people solve, especially because of its deceptively tricky talisman. Great work!

Cursed Treasure - The neutralizer is here to enforce the 'one Lemming goes ahead while the rest stay behind' trick - it's very difficult to complete if they all go at the same time. The skill adder is there to make it harder to save every Lemming for the talisman.



TRICKY:
Shantytown - This level also differs somewhat from the intended solution, which I didn't think was possible due to the limited skillset. Well done for finding it!

Which Way, Mr. Scarecrow? - I'm surprised that so many people found this talisman difficult, it was absolutely not intended. There's a trick to win consistently that involves turning a Lemming around at the exact moment it touches a scarecrow. Still, nice solution and sorry for the tricky talisman!

Beware The Serpent! - As Kaywhyn pointed out in the comments, you did a similar solution to him which differs from intended. Still, it's a nice solution and you did disarm the snake. (This level mainly exists to show off the snake disarming animation which I'm proud of and think is funny )

Vive La Revolution - Boo! You didn't guillotine the zombies! (JK, any solution is valid, well done for finding this one! )

Fear Knot - Yet another level which is always fun to watch. If I recall, every person who has solved this has found a different solution



TREACHEROUS:
Long Shot - The talisman for this level is really nasty, and as far as I'm aware there's no other solutions. Great work for finding it!

Pumping Station - The level is by my brother, so I can't really comment on the solution, but this one's always really fun to watch. It's an absolute nightmare marathon to achieve the talisman, very well done!

Sacred Cloisters - Another talisman that I underestimated the difficulty of. Well done!

Bamboo Grove - This one is also by my brother. The reason it's surprisingly easy for its position is due to issues I had with level spacing - (I didn't want two consecutive levels to have the same style, resulting in odd pacing)

Pushing Up Daisies - Nice one! This one differs slightly from the intended solution for the talisman, but it's still impressive to watch.

Subjugation - Very impressive solution - you saved way more than was required!

Heard it through the grapevine - Another level by my bro. He's very proud of this one, and for good reason - it's an outstanding level like you mentioned. The talisman solution is correct, well done for finding it!

Ring of Fire - I'm very proud of this one. Glad you liked it, and very nice solution, even though it differs from what I intended.

Thanks once again for your playthrough and kind words!

[IchoTolot]

Here are my talisman solutions for the updated pack with the 2 new ranks!

Some really amazing levels in here! 

[Plodderuk]

An interesting and enjoyable pack, with some levels using more recent NeoLemmix features such as Portals, Neutralizers and Skill Removers. I went for the talismans. My solutions are mostly similar to those of IchoTolot, Kaywhyn and/or Swerdis, but there a few levels where I diverged. In the Tricky and Treacherous ranks I particularly enjoyed Tricky 7 "Vive La Revolution!," and 10 "Zen Rock Garden" and Treacherous 2 "Long Shot," 6 "Pushing Up daisies" and 10 "Ring Of Fire." Some comments on a few levels:

Spoiler

Like Kaywhyn, I found Tricky 3 "Which Way, Mr Scarecrow" the most difficult level – it took me a long time. Each lemming has to navigate 3 bi-directional splitters to get home, so – even ignoring the Zombies - there are 8 potential paths, of which 2 need no intervention, 4 need one, and 2 need two. So 8 lemmings would need 8 skills, and 20 need 20 – which leaves only 5 skills free for evading Zombies. I suspect that is impossible, so some lemmings need to be helped by either a Zombie or an earlier lemming turning the scarecrow in the desired direction. I looked for a pattern with the first splitter encountered: alternate left and right, or alternate in groups of 2, 3 or 4? Unfortunately I tried 3 of these options before finding the one that worked. With the help of 92Dexter11's tip about turning lemmings around, I eventually found a solution that uses just 23 skills.

Treacherous 3 "Pumping Station" initially looked like one of those levels where the required strategy is clear but execution is time-consuming and tricky – having to send up a succession of perfectly-timed Climbers to make sure that later-spawning lemmings do not splat. But it turns out there is a solution that avoids any risk of these splatting and only needs 2 Climbers (maybe only 1, but that would make timing very tight).

Treacherous 6 "Pushing Up Daisies" is ingeniously designed and provides quite a challenge for the Talisman. But it's one of those levels where you can get close and then do some final tweaking to avoid running out of Platformers.

Treacherous 10 "Ring Of Fire": a nice challenge to end on. I was having trouble rescuing the lemming that acquires the Jumper pick-up without causing problems elsewhere, so I looked to see if there was a solution not requiring the Jumper. And there is.

LemFaith_Plukz.zip

[92Dexter11]

Hi Plodderuk, I'm glad you enjoyed my pack, thank you for your response and replays!

Here are the solutions I have the most to say about:

Spoiler

Shantytown - I'm surprised that you managed to find yet another solution for this level - I really didn't expect this level to have so many unique solutions due to its very limited skillset. It was quite fun to watch!

Vive La Revolution - Damn, another solution in which the zombies don't get guillotined... Well done - your solution of using the laserer to cause the zombies to drown was really creative!

Long Shot - Both of your solutions differ from what I had intended, especially the first one. Great job for finding these, I thought for certain that the talisman solution for this one was completely airtight!

Pumping Station - This one was made by my brother. Your solution differs heavily from the intended one, but it's quite ingenious! Very well done!

Pushing Up Daisies -  Both your solutions here are seriously impressive, let me try to explain. The solutions that you did here are very similar to what the original talisman solution was going to be - relying on precise timing to get the lemmings to fall off the side of the platforms to hit the switch. I changed it in the final version, adding shimmiers so the player wouldn't be reliant on timing. The fact that one of your solutions managed to do it without using shimmiers is mindblowing, well done!

Dragon's Nest - Another one by my brother. This one was very fun to watch due to your unique solution.

Ring of Fire - Your solution differs quite heavily from what I intended, but all of these levels are designed to be somewhat open ended. Well done for finding this solution!

[Plodderuk]

Hi 92Dexter11, many thanks for your kind comments on my solutions. Playing this pack was so enjoyable. I'm looking forward to exploring your and your brother's other creations in due course.

[92Dexter11]

Just posting this to mention the two new ranks - see the OP for details! 

[Armani]

I played through the newly added Steady and Turbulent ranks!   It's pretty obvious to me now that your levels are right up my alley. I may come back to play the rest of the pack once I finish playing the level packs I'm currently working on. Here are some comments on the individual levels:

One thing I noticed though: the main puzzles of the levels are all hidden in the talismans. Without the talisman, the levels are either too simple or just plain build-and-bash-to-the-exit type levels. Especially a level like River Styx is a complete joke without the talisman and all the carefully fine-tuned object placements and neutral lemmings become a total waste. If anyone misses the brilliance of this level just because they don't care about the talismans, that would be a real shame.

Spoiler

Steady

1. Penumbra: Relatively simple first level of the rank. Even with the talisman, this one is quite easy. The new tileset is gorgeous. I can see myself using this tileset often.

2. Welcome to the World of Tomorrow!: One of my favourite tilesets from this batch. I'll definitely use this tileset for my own levels. The various water-pipe terrain pieces and water objects allow level designers to make complicated, maze-like swimmer routes, which, in my opinion, no NeoLemmix style has allowed so far. The level itself was quite tricky. You have to release the blockers in the correct sequence otherwise the skills run out pretty fast.

3. Sweet Tooth: The solution came to me quite quickly. Turning the faller mid-air was the key, and the rest of the solution came naturally.

4. Serpent Shrine: Surprisingly tricky 2-of-everything, classic-skills-only level. The low save requirement was the hint that implied you don't have to waste skills on containing the crowd.

5. Dark Mire: Time cruncher, except that the time limit was much more generous than I initially thought.

6. Hey Presto: Beautiful level design. The solution was straightforward.

7. Lost in the Desert: That was some fun use of the shimmiers.

8. Lost in the Dessert: Wow, I love the design of the new limited exits! The talisman says not to use any shimmiers and I was wondering how a shimmier could be helpful in this level anyway.

9. Frozen Hearts: Nice touch with all those frozen blocker objects! It felt a little funny to me that removing the terrain beneath the blocker doesn't free it and it just stands there like nothing happened!

10. Chamber of Horrors: What the heck is that new trap animation?!   It's so gruesome and since this level requires the compression method to solve, you have to sacrifice at least one lemming to that trap! Genius level design to showcase the new trap...



Turbulent

1. Can I Have a Peppermint?: The Turbulent rank is a big step up in difficulty compared to the Steady rank and the first level is already a hard nut to crack!

2. Lemmings of the Caribbean: That's a very nicely designed ship! Also, I love the Kraken-like creature near the exit!

3. The Belfry: Very repetitive overall. Pretty obvious what needs to be done. That spam of cloners on the glider to gain height was fun and something new, though. So, credit where credit is due!

4. Sugar Rush: Very clever solution. Making the fall temporarily fatal, then making it safe again at just the right moment. I had a lot of fun figuring this level out.

5. Lem Academy of Science blah blah: Making a long shimmier path is one of the coolest things you can do in NeoLemmix of couse!

6. An Omen of Doom: Phew, that was close! I love how the zombies are catching up and you have just enough room to avoid them in extreme urgency!

7. Bumbly Breach Bazaar: The biggest and most complicated level in this pack so far. (I'll give the "most difficult level" crown to Turbulent 9, though.) I don't see how having the glider is helpful anywhere, so I wonder if the glider assigner is just there as a trap to avoid or if there's something I missed. Very chaotic and so many things happen at the same time, but if you carefully eliminate the possibilities, there's only one route the crowd can take.

8. Ice Nine: Relatively easy one regarding the positioning. The key was figuring out that you have to laser from both sides to release only one shimmier and nobody else.

9. River Styx: My favourite level from this pack, and probably the hardest level in the pack too. I rather quickly figured out that I couldn't let the neutral collect the button, but it was still tough to control the flow of a crowd consisting of both allies and enemies. Looking back at the replay, I wasted a lot of skills near the floater assigner at the end...

10. A Tale of Two Cities: A truly epic finale to the pack! 02:00 would have been possible had I optimized a little bit more.

[92Dexter11]

My brother sent me a link to your playthrough on your youtube channel, it was great fun seeing you solve them! Well done and thank you!

One thing I noticed though: the main puzzles of the levels are all hidden in the talismans.

This is mainly true for most of the newer ranks. The very first ranks (Simple and Tricky) are more open-ended in their talisman solutions.

Without the talisman, the levels are either too simple or just plain build-and-bash-to-the-exit type levels. Especially a level like River Styx is a complete joke without the talisman and all the carefully fine-tuned object placements and neutral lemmings become a total waste. If anyone misses the brilliance of this level just because they don't care about the talismans, that would be a real shame.

This is intentional - the pack is intended to be very easy and suitable for absolute beginners, while the talisman solutions are considered to be the 'true' puzzles intended for more experienced players. This does mean that some levels become trivial for the non-talisman solution as you mentioned, however I don't personally see a problem with this. The pack is primarily meant to be a showcase of the new styles and I feel if a puzzle was too difficult it would discourage new players from seeing the later levels. Ergo, I feel that the talisman solutions are a good compromise which satisfies both new and experienced players.


For all the levels which had specific solutions for the talisman, every single one of them was the intended solution, well done!
Here are the solutions I have the most to say about:

Spoiler

1. Penumbra: Your solution of digging down to prevent the lemmings from turning around is a way better and more obvious idea than what I did for the official solution!

The new tileset is gorgeous. I can see myself using this tileset often.

Thank you, and I look forward to seeing what you create!


2. Welcome to the World of Tomorrow! This one was a joy to see you try to solve! (The talisman solution has exactly enough shimmiers! )

The various water-pipe terrain pieces and water objects allow level designers to make complicated, maze-like swimmer routes, which, in my opinion, no NeoLemmix style has allowed so far.

Thank you! I feel that swimmers are seriously under-utilised in neolemmix, so all three faithful batches have included a 'water' themed style ('Mosaic', 'Brass' and now 'Freezer') to try and encourage more swimmer usage.


3. Sweet Tooth: Intended solution, nice one! I'm very proud of this level and it was very fun to watch you solve.


4. Serpent Shrine: Another one that was really fun to watch you solve, great work!


8. Lost in the Dessert: Very nice solution, I hadn't realised you could send all the lemmings across to the top left, since the love hearts above the hot air balloons were added after I had already recorded a solution for this one!

Wow, I love the design of the new limited exits! The talisman says not to use any shimmiers and I was wondering how a shimmier could be helpful in this level anyway.

Thank you! I'm really proud of those exits and this level exists mainly to show them off. (The shimmiers are used in this level near the start for getting towards the grey balloon and for traversing the underside of the candy canes.)


10. Chamber of Horrors: This level was made purely to show off the new traps and their disarm animations. (Both the regular and talisman solutions rely on lemmings walking through the traps! ) Your solution was slightly more efficient than the official solution due to using the compression method and a walker at the beginning - nice one!




Turbulent:
2. Lemmings of the Caribbean: Differs slightly from the intended solution, but my brother says that this is fine. (I also love the kraken creature, I was quite blown away when my bro first sent me the level and I saw it for the first time )


3. The Belfry: Nice solution on this one. Originally, the talisman solution was much harder as it also forced no more than 10 walkers. I made it easier as I thought this rank already has way too many difficult talisman solutions.


6. An Omen of Doom: Watching this on youtube, I thought for sure that you were going to backroute this one, but you managed to get the intended solution. Well done! (The timing is really tight on this one, I struggled a bunch when I was solving it for myself!)


7. Bumbly Beach Bazaar: I agree that this one is extremely convoluted. It's basically impossible unless you manage keep track of the lemming with the disarmer.  I was certain that this level would have a ton of alternate solutions, however your solution seems quite similar to mine, so perhaps not?
(You are correct in that the glider is just a trap to be avoided, I don't think it's possible to save any lemming that becomes a glider due to the way the exit is positioned.)


8. Ice Nine: My brother and I were both extremely shocked that you managed to figure out the correct solution for this one so quickly! (It differs slightly from the intended solution but is still acceptable) Great work!


9. River Styx: Another one that was very fun to watch you figure out! I'm very glad you like it, it's another one I'm very proud of, thank you!
You mentioned earlier in the post that this level is very easy for the non-talisman solution, but I disagree. The neutral lemming will interfere with the splitter if it's not taken care of. The zombies also need to be killed off in order to get to the lower exit which makes it quite a tricky level in my opinion.


10. A Tale of Two Cities: I agree that this is a great finale to the pack. My brother insisted on designing a Celestial level to finish the pack off with, and I think he did a great job

I look forward to seeing you tackle the other ranks!

[Plodderuk]

Having enjoyed the earlier ranks so much, I was keen to have a go at the latest 2. Again, some beautiful artwork – I especially like the Celestial tileset -  and entertaining puzzles. I've mainly gone just for the talisman solutions.
Steady: Several of my solutions are similar to the official one and/or Armani's. Comments on some of the levels:

Steady

Steady 1 "Penumbra": a beautiful tileset. My solution is closer to Armani's than to the official one, but much slower than either. I wasn't sure whether to construct the exit staircase from above or below, and ended up with a mixture.
Steady 2 "Welcome to the World of Tomorrow": very difficult to get the talisman solution. The artwork shows roughly where the Blockers should be placed, but 1 of these needs perfect precision to allow 2 later manoeuvres. I ran out of Shimmiers until I realised that each Laserer needs to be deployed at the last possible opportunity.
Steady 4 "Serpent Shrine" and 7 "Lost in the Desert": my solutions are slightly faster than the official ones.
Steady 8 "Lost in the Dessert": I love the title – not so keen on this tileset, but that may be because I'm not keen on chocolate cake. There must be multiple solutions; mine is relatively quick.
Steady 9 "Frozen Hearts": again there must be multiple solutions. I don't think it's possible to save all 40 lemmings, but 39 can be saved in a good time.
Steady 10 "Chamber of Horrors": again, multiple solutions are possible. I've included 2 in my set.

Turbulent: my solutions mainly differ from the official ones, at least to some extent. Comments on particular levels:

Spoiler

Turbulent 1 "Can I have a Peppermint": it's interesting how many different solutions there are for this level.
Turbulent 4 "Sugar Rush": I deal with the Zombies in the same way as other solutions, but found a different way to save most of the crowd, for the talisman.
Turbulent 5 "Lem Academy of Science & Energy Research": I had several false starts in finding a way to get a pioneer to the Skiller and back safely. My solution is less elegant than the official one, though faster.
Turbulent 6 "Omen of Doom": the time constraint is very tight if the routes of Lemmings and Zombies cross, so – after failed attempts to avoid this by drowning the Zombies - I looked for a way of containing the Zombies so their path never crosses that of the lemmings. My 1st solution requires good synchronisation between the 2nd pioneer and the crowd. With a slight tweak, 32 can be saved and there is less need for synchronisation.
Turbulent 7 "Bumbly Beach Bazaar": very complicated. It took me a while to realise that, when a trap is embedded in water, a Swimmer-Disarmer will be consumed by the trap, rather than disarming it. Also, until I looked at the official solution, I assumed that a Neutral cannot acquire a new skill – but it can, when it passes a Skill Assigner. So I avoided both Neutralisers. In other respects, my solution is closer to Armani's than to the official solution, though it has a lot in common with both.                                                                   
Turbulent 8 "Ice Nine": needs perfect timing at one point. My solution is much the same as the official one, but I have a different Digger/Laserer sequence, at around 2 minutes in; this saves a few seconds.
Turbulent 9 "River Styx": very difficult, and my solution is slow and inelegant. It took me a long time to figure out that the button on the right must not be reached, by an ordinary lemming or a neutral, until late on.

LemFaith2_plukz.zip

[92Dexter11]

Having enjoyed the earlier ranks so much, I was keen to have a go at the latest 2. Again, some beautiful artwork – I especially like the Celestial tileset -  and entertaining puzzles. I've mainly gone just for the talisman solutions.

Thank you for your kind words! 


Most of your solutions were intended, but there were a few backroutes:

Spoiler

4. Serpent Shrine: WOW! Your talisman solution here is seriously impressive! It's technically a backroute, but I'll allow it, since it still uses the 'interrupt a basher to form a staircase through the land' trick.

7. Lost in the Desert: Your solution here is a backroute. Well done for finding it!

8. Lost in the Dessert: You are correct that there are multiple solutions, this one doesn't have a set solution in mind. Nice job on this one, as it is a quick solution like you said! 

9. Frozen Hearts: A really elegant solution here, using lasers to go underneath the first frozen blocker is a really nice trick.

10: Chamber of Horrors: Your talisman solution here was quite fun to watch - nice job with the tight timing building over the second gap!

Turbulent:

1. Can I Have a Peppermint: Technically a backroute, but I'll allow it. Nice work!

4. Sugar Rush: A major backroute, I'll have to confer with my brother on this one. Good job on finding it!

5. Lem Acadamy of Science & Energy Research: Another backroute, although this one was really entertaining to watch! I think the upper trick with the laserers, while fun, is less intuitive than the intended solution, so I'll allow this one too.

6. An Omen of Doom: Another major backroute of one of my brother's levels. Fortunately, this one seems quite easy to fix.

7. Bumbly Beach Bazaar: Using a laserer to bypass the upper neutraliser is unintended. However, like you said, this level is extremely complicated, so I may leave it in to make it easier, since the talisman is still really convoluted, even with this trick. Good work on finding it!

9. River Styx: Both of your solutions are quite impressive! For the talisman solution, I was blown away by how you dug down into the cracked pillar to drown those zombies - that was really fun. Great work!

Great job on finding these and well done!

I'm ambivalent about whether or not to update lemmings faithful to fix these backroutes. I've never done so before with lemmings faithful, since I've always had the mindset of 'tileset first, solutions later' with this level pack. Lemmings faithful was always intended to be a pack that I could release then forget about, with open-ended solutions. I kinda went back on that philosophy with some talisman solutions in the later ranks. I'll discuss it with my brother and see what he thinks.

[IchoTolot]

Here is my new replay collection with my solutions to the 2 new ranks included. 

[92Dexter11]

Hi Ichotolot and thank you for your solutions.
It's just now occurred to me that I didn't respond to your solutions for the previous ranks, my apologies for that!

Here are my responses to the new ranks and the two previous ones I missed that I have the most to say about:

SAFE

02 Some really fun timing used here with the bashers, very fun to watch.
03 More sensible than my official solution, using the last lemming to collect the cloners rather than letting the zombies interfere too early, well done!
05 Somewhat different than the official solution, but still valid, great job!
06 This one is always fun to watch, since every submitted solutions is radically different, yours is no exception!
08 Differs from intended solution, but still valid
09 Quite a unique solution here, well done.

TREACHEROUS

01 I'm pretty sure this is a major backroute, well done for finding it!
02 Intended solution
03 Another fun one to watch due to the sheer size of the level, great work!
04 Differs massively from intended solution, but I don't consider it a backroute.
06 Valid solution. It was extremely funny watching you delay the platformer lemming by jumping repeatedly with the shimmier
08 Intended solution
09 I think this solution is what my brother intended, well done!
10 Intended solution, well done!

STEADY

03 Intended solution, well done!
04 Backrouted. Nicely done!
07 Another backroute, similar to the one found by Plodderuk, nicely done!
09 Very similar to the official solution, good job!
10 Also very similar to the official solution!

TURBULENT

01 Differs slightly from intended solution, with some quite impressive timing, well done!
02 Very different from the official solution, but I'm not sure if my brother has an intended solution for this one.
04 This is intended, well done!
05 Very similar to intended solution, good job!
06 Intended solution
07 Another one which is always really fun to watch, mainly because it's difficult to keep track of what's happening! Your solution is quite similar to the intended one
08 Intended solution
09 Quite a unique solution with the zombies on the left, good job!
10 Yet another one which is always fun to watch, although you have to zoom out to see everything. As far as I know, this one has no set solution, so good work!

[kaywhyn]

Hello Dexter and tan x,

I have solved the new Steady and Turbulent ranks and thus want to post my replays as well!

Also, link to my LP, this time start at part 11:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJvlLFdVV0TNl3zcOkg7Dy7Q

I really enjoyed these 5 new graphic sets by Dexter and the new levels for the most part, especially the talismans which made many of them much better!

Some level comments:

Steady Rank Feedback

Spoiler

Steady 1 - Penumbra Nice level to start off the new Lemmings Faithful update. However, I disagree with Armani that the talisman is easy, as the skill restrictions mean getting up the level is much harder. It's possible that I might had missed a far easier way to, though. IMo, it's a difficult talisman not only because of the skill restrictions, but also you're racing to stop both hatches from splatting with the very limited amount of floaters, and then later on you need to get the preplaced blockers who are all placed very high in the level down safely without the floaters. At least in my solution I didn't have any spare floaters for them. Then there's getting them all the floaters back up to the exit afterwards, which I've already explained is quite difficult when you aren't allowed neither climbers nor builders! All of these things combined is what makes me think the talisman makes it difficult for the first level of the new pack update However, the next level is much worse in this regard IMO (see below)

Steady 2 - Welcome to the World of Tomorrow! Ok, this is quite possibly the hardest level of the entire Steady rank when it comes to the talisman, as this took me several days over several sessions before I finally succeeded. As such, I did post-commentary after I attempted the talisman for apparently 2 hours Several things make this a very hard talisman: it requires some advanced maneuvers, such as turning a laser with a blocker, but I think the most critical one is interrupting the laser at the right point in order to make a turnaround point, and to do the latter you need to shoot it at the right spot, at a point where there's a slight rise in the terrain at the pipe join. Before I found this solution, I kept running out of lasers, though I suppose the visual terrain clutter in the pipes being a clue as to the blocker placements should had lead me to the laser/blocker trick much sooner. Even after the tip Icho gave of being short on shimmiers, I still struggled a lot with the level, eventually getting to the point of also being short with shimmiers, until I remember the laser turnaround mentioned earlier.

All of these facts combined make this talisman very difficult, especially for only the second level of the new Lemmings Faithful update. Don't get me wrong, it's a very nice talisman with no more than 1 walker limit, but IMO this is quite bad when it's a really difficult talisman so early in the new update. At least when it comes to less experienced players, especially those who go for talismans and may likely rage quit when attempting it. You can even hear my rage slowly rising from time to time in my LP, though again I was a dummy with not realizing the laser/blocker interaction sooner (it's not new to me, as I've seen it before in Lemmings Uncharted, for example). In fairness, it's not easy to spot where to use it. Similarly, where the walker skill you're allowed to use is completely unintuitive. For a long time, I kept thinking it was used for a blocker somewhere at the top instead of the one who turns the laser at the bottom.

My solution also uses a lot of precise skill assignments, and quite honestly the steel blocks make the execution more annoying than it needs to be. In particular, there's very little room for error when freeing the upper left blocker, as if you remove all of the lower pipe terrain to its left then the ceiling is too high for the shimmier to be able to grab on. Consider lowering the terrain to allow for more room for error there so that there's more pixels available to start shimmying along the ceiling in that area.

Despite all I've mentioned, it is a great level and all, especially the talisman, but the latter alone is what makes this way too difficult for just the second level. It really feels more of a Turbulent rank level instead of a Steady rank level IMO. I think there can be a much easier Freezer graphic set introduction level as a result to replace this one. However, if doing this, then it needs to be with a Dexter level, as the entire Steady rank is all Dexter levels. So, if this level is to remain in the Steady rank, I would definitely move it to very near the end of the rank. The one that probably comes to my mind is swapping Steady 9 with this one, especially as it at least introduces the various Freezer Lemming sprites and the player learns that the blocker one is just as if an actual blocker is there to turn them while the others are objects that Lemmings can pass over with no problems. Plus the Steady 9 talisman reminds me of Simple 3

It's just like the brothers have said, we level makers are often not great at judging the difficulty of our own content! I should know, because last year, I upranked a level in my upcoming Lemmings Memories pack as a result of a private tester's feedback and because I completely underestimated its difficulty!

Steady 3 - Sweet Tooth Much easier talisman than the previous level, though the hardest part was just knowing where to place the blocker and then being able to free it or any and all blockers used. Luckily only one is needed. Nice trick of fencing below while platforming with the worker to free the blocker! Been a while since I've seen this one. Also a nice introductory Cake level!

Steady 4 - Serpent Shrine I'm surprised Armani thought the talisman here was tricky. I didn't think it was at all, though one of my earlier attempts comes pretty close to achieving it but not quite. I think my critical error was climbing and then digging down the pillar on the left side. Once I realized a much better way to do that, then it came easily to me. Another great introductory level, this time for the Oasis graphic set

Steady 5 - Dark Mire Yup, absolutely no problem at all with the talisman. You do the multi-tasking correctly and it'll be a piece of cake Still a nice level here introducing the Grim graphic set, though it's quite minimal since there's plenty of things we haven't been introduced to here, such as the various traps, several of which are quite disturbing and graphic

Steady 6 - Hey Presto One of my favorites of the rank! This has an excellent puzzle element of figuring out how to get the Lemmings to the correct teleporter in order to get to the exit. That element kind of reminds me of that no skills level in I believe Lemmings Plus Omega 2 I like how the teleporters are all labeled with a symbol so you always know exactly which receiver each leads to. Nicely done, and it was especially fun to figure out the talisman where neither builders nor walkers are allowed!

Steady 7 - Lost in the Desert Not too difficult, even with the talisman, though I was a dummy and was on this level a bit longer than I needed to be due to having not figured out to get under the needle trap sooner and also with completely forgetting that bashers aren't allowed for the talisman! It's still pretty fun to try and figure out how to get around the builder supply shortage! Great level

Steady 8 - Lost in the Dessert Another favorite of mine of the rank! It was really fun to figure out how to get 2 Lemmings to each of the 5 exits scattered all around the level. This level I would say is a great example of one where while sliders are normally a curse when playing and solving, they can be a blessing too depending on the design. Here, I took advantage of this by building so that the others cannot follow the lead Lemming! Well done with this level, I really enjoyed it! I especially like how all the balloon exits are different colors too!

Steady 9 - Frozen Hearts As mentioned, I think this can do nicely with swapping places with Steady 2, especially as the level's talisman is much easier than the former's. Without the talisman, both levels are likely the same difficulty, though here the sliders proved to be a nuisance at the very end compared to the previous level! Still, I generally like talismans that prohibit any or all constructive skills a lot! That being said, it's still a challenging level with figuring out the route the crowd needs to take and dealing with potential splat falls as a result to obtain the talisman. This definitely increases the difficulty, though again the fact that the talisman is just like Simple 3's does make this a pretty suitable swap with Steady 2 IMO. Again, just due to how insane the difficulty of the latter's talisman is, as without the talismans all the Lemmings Faithful levels are quite easy

Steady 10 - Chamber of Horrors Nice level to finish off the rank and not as challenging as it looks, even with the talisman, especially as I've managed to best both the save and total skills records of the talisman! Yea, this graphic set is definitely not kid friendly or appropriate at all, with the gruesome and graphic displays of how the various traps kill the Lemming                    

Turbulent Rank Feedback

Spoiler

Turbulent 1 - Can I Have A Peppermint? Somewhat difficult to start off the rank, though in the end my solution seems a bit hackish and brute forced, especially with the way I got everyone down safely past the splat pad by digging on the builder staircase to lower the height so that it's safe, including stopping the builder himself early enough. They just barely managed to fall a bit past the splat pad. I'm guessing the intention is to have everyone get to the glider skill adder, though I'm not sure if there's enough builders to be able to do so. Still a nice level here

Turbulent 2 - Lemmings of the Caribbean Nice reference to the film Pirates of the Caribbean, though surprisingly I have not seen the film! Anyway, not difficult in any way even with the talisman, though it got trickier as the level went on, when I found myself struggling with how to not use more builders than you're allowed for it. I love the treasure chests for buttons to unlock the exit, which is a ship rising out of the water! Only thing I'm a bit iffy on is whether it might be a better idea to make it more obvious that it's the exit, which in that case perhaps it's better to first have a level with the ship exit not "locked" before introducing the locked variant In any case, nice first level by tan x which I enjoyed playing and solving! Also, didn't realize the kraken before Nicely done, and if you want another great example of one in a Lemmings level, take a look at Pieuw's level in Fiat Lem!

Turbulent 3 - The Belfry Sorry, not a fan of this level due to how excessive the repetition of skill assignments is, though admittedly I found the repeated cloning of the glider to get higher with the updraft in the middle to reach the bell button to unlock the exit a cool concept Talisman luckily isn't too difficult or tight at all given the amount of cloners to allow for a comfortable margin. Nice level design!

Turbulent 4 - Sugar Rush Oh no, a zombie level It's the type of level I tend to struggle a lot with when playing and solving them. In the end, I spent much longer than was needed due to not realizing that getting zombies off the Lemmings' tail is much simpler than I thought. It just comes down to there's a critical sweet spot of making a splat fall for the zombies and then temporarily making it safe for the crowd and then making it safe by digging at the top and cancelling with a shimmier, and as long as they're sufficiently ahead of the trailing zombie then they're all make it to the exit before they get infected. This of course required that the Lemmings are tightly bunched up to make it easier. Nice level nevertheless and I forgot to mention it in my LP, but I think making it clearer that it's an anti-splat pad on the right side is a good idea

I also didn't realize that the level doesn't terminate properly even after you nuke the level. I'm guessing it's due to how there are still zombies to spawn. I could had sworn it did before in an earlier NL version. I'm going to have to check with the level from Lemmings Plus VI.

Turbulent 5 - Lem Academy of Science & Energy Research One of my favorites of the rank! This was really fun to figure out and puzzle my way through to obtain the talisman. I really like the part with getting a pioneer to go over the top of the level to get to the slider skill adder That's one of the hardest parts of the level but one of the best solution elements IMO It's also hard to figure out how to get to the upper left button and the slider back to safety later on, as the talisman just requires a save all, particularly since only the slider will be able to reach the button that's almost right above the exit. Well done with this level Dexter!

Turbulent 6 - An Omen of Doom Wow, what a difficult level, but only because again I tend to struggle a lot with zombie levels It really isn't as difficult as it appears, even with the talisman. I spent longer on the level than I needed to only because I didn't realize sooner to send 2 climbers over to deal with the zombies Before I came to that realization, I kept trying to figure out various ways to try and avoid the impending zombie threat if they try and come over via the portal. It also took me a while to figure out that only a digger is needed to get everyone to the exit, as a basher isn't necessary if you dig at the right spot. It took me a while to get the timing right to platform the gap up so that no one slips by while the gap is being sealed up. I wonder if there's a much easier way to do this than the way I did it Guess I'll have to check tan x's solution here I really like the added skeleton on the far right! Certainly adds to the already spooky atmosphere of the Grim graphic set!

Turbulent 7 - Bumbly Beach Bazaar Wow, what a beast of a level to play and solve, given the very chaotic level design with all the various skill adder objects and neutralizer/de-neutralizer in the level. It apparently took me almost 2 hours before I finally succeeded here! Because of the various objects, it makes it very difficult to keep track of what skills each Lemming has. There was apparently one attempt where I missed one drowning and hence ruining the talisman attempt Thank goodness for being able to assign a hotkey that one can press in order to see what permanent skills the Lemmings have Apparently for neutralizers it doesn't display so in the skill panel area, so you'll need to look at the shadowy skill icons above the neutral Lemming instead.

Anyway, there's a lot going on here, though I'm wondering if the level was much harder than it needed to be due to not using much of the blockers I like the touch of the pirate ship trap close to the exit Regarding the talisman, despite walkers not being allowed in contrast to Steady 2's, which allowed you no more than 1 walker, it's luckily not much harder. The level itself is already pretty difficult even if you allow yourself walkers because of the chaotic level design as already mentioned.

After some time, despite the overwhelming level design, it seems clear that one needs to have all Lemmings use the red teleporter in order to get the swimmer and slider skills needed to reach the exit later on. Everything else is irrelevant, though some of the other ones will be necessary in order to reach some of the buttons to unlock the exit. This does mean at least one Lemming will be a neutral. However, you do have skills to be able to avoid the neutralizer in the middle of the level some of the time.

Sounds Armani had the same idea as me initially that the glider skill adder is a "trap" that needs to be avoided. However, looking back, I don't think it's a trap per se. I think it's possible to actually use it and still be able to solve the level. I just need to check to see if it's possible for the gliders to land to the right of the pirate ship trap and be able to reach the exit afterwards. It would require shooting the laser at the right spot so that the sliders go out to the right at end of the laser tunnel.

I'm also wondering if it's possible to get the disarmer to be able to disarm the gun trap by guiding it to that part of the level later on after getting the bottom left button. I'm also wondering if swimmers can disarm traps, though judging by what Plodderuk wrote in their feedback it seems not. I have forgotten whether or not swimmers are able to disable traps, and it looks like they can't, so I shall remember and keep this in mind!

For the key buttons, they currently use the pickup sound, which can easily be mistaken for a pickup being collected, especially as I'm so used to that being the sound of pickup skills. Perhaps it's better to use a sound unique to buttons that only buttons make?

Turbulent 8 - Ice Nine Kind of a breather level which was certainly a welcome sight and especially needed after I struggled a lot with the previous two levels I did run into digger shortage problems, but only because I didn't realize that it's not necessary to use the digger at the start for the crowd to go through the bottom. It's not possible to get them back up to the exit later on anyway Sounds like I did it very different from either Armani or Plodderuk with handling the pre-assigned shimmiers, as I released them all with a walker skill, which is all you're allowed for the talisman. The challenge then was to figure out how to get them all down safely without running out of diggers. Luckily, there are enough lasers to use as delays so that they don't slip by the digger when digging inside a laser tunnel. I especially like the part of lasering through the OWWs to both release the crowd and to reach the exit. Still a nice level here by tan x!

Turbulent 9 - River Styx I will probably have to agree with Armani here that this is quite possibly the hardest level of the new Lemmings Faithful update, though it's either this or Turbulent 7 IMO. From what it sounds like based on what Armani and Plodderuk have said, it's possible to race against the neutral so that he doesn't collect the upper right button I didn't do that for my solution, as I just avoided the upper left button until the very end, and then once the neutral zombies were disposed of, I was able to reach the former locked exit safely with the ones that are still able to reach it. With some optimization, I probably could had saved way more, but by that point a lot of the Lemmings are too close to one another to be able to platform up the gap in the bottom right so that plenty of them slipped out before it was sealed off again. I like the concept of the blocker neutral zombie infecting the other neutrals after the neutral blocker exits after the hidden balloon exit is unlocked. I didn't realize that was hidden balloon exit until after I had gotten both of the buttons though. I was wondering what that "1" was!

Also from Dexter's feedback to another user, reaching the unlocked exit in the bottom left is possible?

Turbulent 10 - A Tale of Two Cities Wow, what a great level to finish off the new Lemmings Faithful update! I definitely agree with tan x's choice of this being the final level. Luckily it's a pretty easy level to solve, even with the time attack requirement of the talisman, though of course the level becomes a significant challenge if going for it. I immensely enjoyed playing and solving this level, and it was very satisfying to obtain the time attack talisman here! It's quite an overwhelming level due to the huge size and the various bell buttons scattered everywhere in the level that need to be collected in order to unlock all 4 exits, where they all have an exit limit of 50 each. The huge amount of Lemmings for the level especially means that maxing out the RR is mandatory in order to even have a chance of beating the level in under 2.5 minutes. Same thing with multi-tasking both sides. In an earlier attempt, I was too slow by about 5 seconds or so, but in my success I finished with 8 seconds to spare. Seems the key here is to bring the crowds closer to the exits and make a new holding pit for them so that it's easier to tell when to release them and be able to meet the time requirement.

By Armani's remark of finishing under 2 minutes even, that sounds very insane!

Speaking of 2 minutes, I went back to the Hyper rank finisher of Casualemmings to see if I can obtain the talisman and luckily I was able to do it with not much difficulty. So, I would have to disagree with nin10doadict that 2 minutes is an "unfair" time limit, which the level originally had.

Some nitpicks I have here, which are the bell buttons currently not making any sound when collected/pressed, which therefore makes it impossible to tell if one already got to it earlier. Even more problematic when they disappear completely afterwards. Finally, it's not obvious that they're buttons they need to be push/collected to unlock the exit.                           

Well done again to Dexter and tan x with the Yet More Faithful update!  

[92Dexter11]

Hey Kaywhyn!

Thank you for another let's play. As always, it was great fun watching you play through the pack on youtube and hearing your commentary.

Many of your solutions were quite unique, here's the responses that I have the most to say about:

Steady

Penumbra - This was quite fun to watch you solve.
You are correct in that this is a very difficult talisman - this is intentional. The difficulty of the Lemming's Faithful talismans are balanced in a weird and inconsistent way, let met try to explain.
The levels in each rank are organised based on how difficult the non-talisman solutions are. The talisman solutions are usually arbitrarily easy/difficult without any particular rhyme or reason. I try to have a roughly equal distribution of easy and hard talismans in each rank (i.e., each rank typically follows a pattern of 3-4-3 - 3 bronze, 3 silver and 3 gold, with the remaining level chosen randomly between bronze silver or gold.)

For the 'Steady' rank, I thought it'd be funny to play with the expectations of this pattern by having the first 4 talismans be super difficult right out the gate, then follow it up with an extremely easy talisman in level 4 (hence level 4's talisman name 'Can I have an easy talisman this time?')
I don't personally see an issue with the way this is organised, since it's made explicit in the OP that the talismans are for experienced players. If any new players do try to do the talisman solutions, they'll likely start with the first two ranks, which have a less extreme difficulty gradient before moving onto the harder 'Steady' rank.

Welcome to the World of Tomorrow - Okay, your solution here is absolutely incredible and not intended at all. The first time I saw this I had to pause the video and message my brother because your solution was that impressive, seriously well done for finding it!
The tight timing and trick about turning around the blocker is a complete backroute which I didn't even realise would be possible on this level.
The intended solution is much more straightforward - the challenge comes from precise management of the number of shimmiers.
In the official solution, you have exactly enough shimmiers to complete the level with, but you managed to complete the level with 16 shimmiers to spare, which is genuinely mindblowing! 

For this reason, I don't consider WTTWOT's talisman to be as difficult as you do, though it is still quite a tricky one without a doubt.
Seriously well done for finding this solution! 

Sweet Tooth - Intended solution.

Serpent Shrine - Backrouted, this level has more solutions than I expected! I think your solution here is unique? Well done for finding it.

Hey Presto - This one was fun to watch you solve. I'm both glad and surprised that you liked it, as I always thought this one was a bit of a builder-fest. It was also fun watching you get caught off-guard by the trap. It's hidden in plain sight!

Lost in the Desert - Another backroute. In fact, I think most people who play this level find use this solution. Oh well. Good job on finding it!

Lost in the Dessert - This is one of my favourites, too. I'm glad you liked it!

Frozen Hearts - Your solution here was really novel and interesting. The triple-laser strat near the start of the level was quite fun to watch. As I already mentioned, the levels in this pack are organised based on the difficulty of the main solution, not the talisman solution. I feel the main solution of WTTWOT is very easy, while the main solution for Frozen Hearts is a bit more involved, so I'm happy with how the levels are organised currently.

Chamber of Horrors - I think your solution here is more efficient than the official one, but it's not a backroute since it shows off the main animation of each trap, as well as the disarming animations. (This is the 'backroute criteria' I had for this level since it only exists to show off each trap's animation lol )

Turbulent

Can I Have a Peppermint - A complete backroute - I didn't realise it was possible to save the pre-placed lemmings without them going through the skill assigner. Nicely done!

Lemmings of the Caribbean - This one differs heavily from the official solution, but I'm not sure if this one has an 'intended' solution or not - I'll have to ask my brother. Good job!

The Belfry - Yeah, this one's a bit repetitive, sorry!    The idea for the glider/cloner updraft was originally planned for a jade level in the previous 'treacherous' rank, but I had a hard time making a level that I was happy with, so I shelved it. I revisited the idea for this level. The concept works well, but it's the only part of the level which is notable.

Sugar Rush - I think this is a slight backroute, but it's quite similar to the intended solution, so I think my brother might allow it? The level-not-ending is a glitch that apparently happens when a level has limited entrances for both zombies and regular lemmings.

Lem Academy of Science & Energy Research - A backroute, but I'll allow it. You used a lot of interesting movement techniques here with the slider/laserers and it was very entertaining to watch!

An Omen of Doom - A massive backroute, well done for finding it!

Bumbly Beach Bazaar - Another fun one to watch. This one is definitely one of the hardest of the rank because of how chaotic it is.

Sounds Armani had the same idea as me initially that the glider skill adder is a "trap" that needs to be avoided. However, looking back, I don't think it's a trap per se. I think it's possible to actually use it and still be able to solve the level. I just need to check to see if it's possible for the gliders to land to the right of the pirate ship trap and be able to reach the exit afterwards. It would require shooting the laser at the right spot so that the sliders go out to the right at end of the laser tunnel.

I don't think it's possible, but then again I know better than to underestimate you! 

I'm also wondering if it's possible to get the disarmer to be able to disarm the gun trap by guiding it to that part of the level later on after getting the bottom left button.

The gun does get disarmed in the official solution.

Perhaps it's better to use a sound unique to buttons that only buttons make?

I did wonder about this before I released the style, whether it would be appropriate to use the pickup sound for a button. The problem is, I don't like doing custom sounds for the Faithful styles, since I want the sounds to be as close to the original Lemmings as possible (for instance, all the traps/teleporters use sounds from the original lemmings. My brother especially takes issue with this, using the 'zap' trap effect for the sci-fi teleporters - we argued about this a bunch while the tilesets were still in development).
Since the pickup noise is already used extensively in neolemmix (and since 'pickups' and 'buttons' are game elements not present in the original lemmings to begin with), I figured re-using the pickup sound wouldn't really ruin the 'faithful' aesthetic.
If I did use a new custom sound, I'd have to bit-crush / compress it in the same way that the original lemmings did, which I'm not entirely sure how to accomplish.

At any rate, changing the sound effect would be a purely cosmetic change which would have no effect on replays whatsoever, so I'm not opposed to the idea. I'd just have to learn how the original lemmings did their sound effects.

Ice Nine - Another massive backroute. The intended solution is much, much trickier, well done for finding this!

River Styx - Damn, this one is another impressive backroute! Infecting the neutral so he doesn't collect the rightmost button is the intended solution, which I thought for sure would be backroute-proof. My heart sank a little when I saw you turn the lemmings around on the root underneath the exit. I underestimated you once again - incredible job here!

A Tale of Two Cities - Another fun one to watch. Very chaotic as you mentioned!

I agree that the bell buttons not making any sound is an issue. I went through and checked all the original sounds and couldn't find one that I was happy with, so I left it blank (see my previous statement about the lemmings sound effects - I might make a post on the forums/discord asking about this at some point  )

Thanks again for your feedback!