Author Topic: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)  (Read 3203 times)

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Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] Shimmiers that are assigned climbers climb up vertical overhangs?
« Reply #15 on: August 10, 2023, 12:47:44 AM »
Commit 57bc45cf5 implements this feature; we just need to decide whether a transition state is needed; we can test it out in the 2.6 RC and see what we think.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] Shimmiers that are assigned climbers climb up vertical overhangs?
« Reply #16 on: August 10, 2023, 03:27:35 PM »
Great, thanks for implementing this, WillLem! :thumbsup: I look forward to seeing how it turns out in practice.

Quote from: WillLem
The exception to this is if the lem is also a Slider, in which case they slide down, dangle, and ultimately fall facing the opposite direction to their approach.

For added utility, at that point you could even assign another Shimmier to make the lemming shimmy back the way he came. This can be useful, since bouncing a Shimmier with a Blocker usually requires some fiddly setup (otherwise, the lemming will easily just shimmy over the Blocker's head). And since Shimmiers don't turn around automatically when hitting regular walls (luckily!), we can use tricks like these to turn them around instead (shimmy, climb, slide back down, shimmy back).
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Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
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Offline WillLem

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Any thoughts on whether this feature needs a transition state? It's ended up making its way into stable (which it really shouldn't have until this had been decided upon! :forehead:)

I really need to get my head around Git branches. They just seem like a recipe for headaches and forgetting which stuff is on which branch, but I suppose they could also be useful for things like this.

Anyway, yes - please shout if you think there should be a Shimmier -> Climber transition state. My current opinion is that there should be. Did we ever get those L2 sprites? It's probably in there somewhere...

Offline Strato Incendus

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I don’t think there should be a transition animation :evil:, and I also don’t think Lemmings 2 ever had one. The Shimmiers just transition into Climbers right away. Hence, there are also no sprites for such a state.

If it’s already in the stable version as it is, and there’s never been a precedent for such a transition state (from Lemmings 2 or otherwise), this sounds like needless extra work for everyone (you, level creators, and players for having their replays broken).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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I also don’t think Lemmings 2 ever had one. The Shimmiers just transition into Climbers right away. Hence, there are also no sprites for such a state.

There is a very brief transition, probably no more than 4 frames, but it's enough to smooth the action significantly and make it look more intended/polished.

If it’s already in the stable version as it is

Albeit by mistake. But yes, if people have already begun creating levels around this feature I can understand it might cause problems if it were changed now (but not necessarily; it depends on the level's design/solution).

I'm hoping for a bit of leniency on this one, because it wasn't actually meant to be an available feature until this aspect of it had been decided. Also, if it is going to be changed, far better to do so now whilst SLX levels are still fairly thin on the ground (as far as I know, only 1 level has yet been released which requires this mechanic, and its solution wouldn't be affected by adding a transition state).

You have mentioned some good reasons not to change it, but it really wouldn't be that much more work, especially if the sprite already exists from L2 (which it does).

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I could do with a bit more feedback to nudge it one way or another.
« Last Edit: March 10, 2024, 01:37:14 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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I also don’t think Lemmings 2 ever had one. The Shimmiers just transition into Climbers right away. Hence, there are also no sprites for such a state.

There is a very brief transition, probably no more than 4 frames, but it's enough to smooth the action significantly and make it look more intended/polished.

If it’s already in the stable version as it is

Albeit by mistake. But yes, if people have already begun creating levels around this feature I can understand it might cause problems if it were changed now (but not necessarily; it depends on the level's design/solution).

I'm hoping for a bit of leniency on this one, because it wasn't actually meant to be an available feature until this aspect of it had been decided. Also, if it is going to be changed, far better to do so now whilst SLX levels are still fairly thin on the ground (as far as I know, only 1 level has yet been released which requires this mechanic, and its solution wouldn't be affected by adding a transition state).

You have mentioned some good reasons not to change it, but it really wouldn't be that much more work, especially if the sprite already exists from L2 (which it does).

Anyone else have any thoughts on this? I could do with a bit more feedback to nudge it one way or the other.

Offline mobius

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gah, sad I totally missed out on this topic until now. I'd seen and thought of this many times. Seems to me at first glance, powerful for sure, but a level designer should easily [jinx myself] be able to design around it should they not want you to climb up. I want to test this out soon and hopefully I'll have  some feedback here soon.

Was probably mentioned but I think in L2 this was severely glitched? like it worked sometimes but sometimes it didn't?
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Offline WillLem

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gah, sad I totally missed out on this topic until now

The feature wasn't actually meant to be released, so it can still be considered "in development" if you have any ideas. Particularly though, would you like to see the proposed transition state added or do you think the animation is fine as it is?

Was probably mentioned but I think in L2 this was severely glitched? like it worked sometimes but sometimes it didn't?

It works consistently as expected in SLX (from minimal testing thus far), haven't had a chance to properly look at it in L2.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)
« Reply #23 on: March 29, 2024, 01:53:33 AM »
OK, I've begun work on the "Turner" state. It's a 6-frame animation that smooths out the Shimmier > Climber transition whilst also making it look more intended.

As with all lemming states, though, the question now arises as to its assignability (i.e. what skills should be assignable to a lemming in this state). It's an interesting one, as well, because currently the lemming turns around on the 3rd frame, but doesn't start Climbing until after the 6th. This means that there are 4 frames of assignability with the lem facing in the opposite direction to the one they originally came...!

(Note: this has been done to keep the physics consistent with what the player can visibly see in the animated sprite).

With regards to assignability, the closest relations to the Turner are the Hoister and Dangler; perhaps anything that's assignable to these 2 states should also be assignable to a Turner. This means that assigning a Walker to a Turner during the first 2 frames will have the lem drop facing in the original direction, whilst assigning during the last 4 will have them drop facing the opposite direction.

This makes the Turner a particularly unique lem state, as it's the only one which changes direction mid-animation!

Thoughts on this? Could do with some feedback before progressing with it any further.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2024, 11:42:32 AM by WillLem »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)
« Reply #24 on: March 29, 2024, 02:00:55 PM »
Quote
With regards to assignability, the closest relations to the Turner are the Hoister and Dangler; perhaps anything that's assignable to these 2 states should also be assignable to a Turner. This means that assigning a Walker to a Turner during the first 2 frames will have the lem drop facing in the original direction, whilst assigning during the last 4 will have them drop facing the opposite direction.

That sounds like a good starting point to me.
I guess critical questions revolve around whether the Jumper and the Walker should be assignable to the Turner state?

Also, Turner sounds confusing, because it’s the name of a skill in Lemmings 3D. Much like the “Ascender” or whatever the six-pixel-jump state is currently called used to be called Jumper in Old-Formats NeoLemmix.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)
« Reply #25 on: March 30, 2024, 02:50:36 AM »
I agree with Strato. This looks like a good starting point.
I forgot L3 had a different turner function too. Not sure how important that is.

...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)
« Reply #26 on: March 30, 2024, 01:49:03 PM »
To clarify: Not L3 (Lemmings 3: An All New World of Lemmings), but Lemmings 3D. ;)
The Turner was just the 3D-version of the Blocker, turning lemmings around left or right corners — rather than upward, which is what the transitioning state we’re currently talking about would be doing.

This distinction however has just made me think of what the Shimmier would look like if it were implemented in Lemmings 3D / Loap… :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)
« Reply #27 on: March 30, 2024, 08:27:32 PM »
Turner sounds confusing, because it’s the name of a skill in Lemmings 3D

I realise that, can we think of a better name for the state?

Since it's the only (proposed) lem state that actually does turn around mid-action (that is, if we go ahead with it in its current implementation), Turner seems to be ideal - the lem actually does turn before they begin Climbing.

I'm currently very much in 2 minds about this - I think it would be better to have them either turn straight away (so that Frame 0 of the animation has them facing back the way they came in-physics, regardless of what we see in the sprite) or not have them turn in-physics until they've actually begun climbing.

Turning mid-action feels like one of those "if you don't know about it, you won't be able to solve this level that's built around it" kind of mechanics which aren't much fun as a player. Having said that though, as long as it's clear from the sprite that the lemming has turned around (maybe it could be made longer, which would make the action clearer whilst providing a bigger assignment window either side of the "turn"), it could prove to be an interesting element to this behaviour.

One thing to bear in mind is that, because the lemming turns in-physics, the sprite itself has to be drawn facing in one direction first, then the other direction once the turn has happened (because turning in-physics swaps to the opposite-facing sprite); easy enough for me to manage, but others making custom sprites in the future may find this somewhat confusing.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)
« Reply #28 on: March 31, 2024, 08:59:03 AM »
Quote
I realise that, can we think of a better name for the state?

Flipper? Swinger? Inverter? Rotater? Spinner? :crylaugh:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] Shimmier --> Climber Transition (Feedback wanted)
« Reply #29 on: March 31, 2024, 02:27:51 PM »
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...Jeremy Kapp