Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects  (Read 3357 times)

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Offline Simon

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #15 on: March 12, 2024, 11:46:41 PM »


These are the two neutralizers from WillLem's attachment. Thanks for looking into my ideas! I have no clear ideas anymore how to improve these. I'm still not sure which of the two is better in play. What do others think?

We haven't questioned yet whether the gadget should look like a gate in the first place. If the trigger is as small as it is, 4 pixels x 4 pixels, then yes, you indeed need these elaborate decorations around that trigger area. Or would it be more useful for level design if it were an area-covering neutralizing field? A good graphic for such an area would be even harder to design.

I probably will release a CE fork of the final version

Thanks, that prospect encourages me to continue to grind usability with you.

-- Simon

Offline Proxima

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #16 on: March 13, 2024, 12:07:02 AM »
I suggested the arrow version on the basis that it might be better than the lemmings walking in and out of frame (because with the latter, you just see blue and grey alternating, so it's not really clear which is "before" and which "after").

But I still favour a single-lemming static image over either. A neutral lemming for the neutraliser, a normal lemming for the deneutraliser.

The only thing that's been said against that suggestion is that the deneutraliser could be mistaken for a "walker assigner". I don't think we have to take that objection very seriously, because that doesn't make sense as a gadget in any case.

Online WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #17 on: March 13, 2024, 06:24:03 PM »
with the latter, you just see blue and grey alternating, so it's not really clear which is "before" and which "after"

Is that still true even in the updated versions? We can always add more frames to the "after" part of the animation to allow the image to settle more. The more frames, the more "static" the image appears, whilst retaining the animation.

The only thing that's been said against that suggestion is that the deneutraliser could be mistaken for a "walker assigner". I don't think we have to take that objection very seriously, because that doesn't make sense as a gadget in any case.

I agree that the chances of it being mistaken for a Walker assigner are low to none, but the animation is still a good idea because it (a) marks it as an object (which is more or less a requirement in NeoLemmix), and (b) adds further clarification to what the object does.

It's easy enough to try out a static version: we just grab the middle frame of the animation and set the frame count to 1. Meanwhile, I'll add more frames to the animated version later today and see if that helps.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #18 on: March 13, 2024, 07:23:22 PM »
I would tend towards the arrow version because even in pause mode the full message is still there. With the animation you can pause in a frame and not get the full message the animation wants to show us.

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #19 on: March 13, 2024, 08:26:40 PM »
I would tend towards the arrow version because even in pause mode the full message is still there. With the animation you can pause in a frame and not get the full message the animation wants to show us.

Valid point, and what you're saying is correct.

However, I disagree that this should be the basis on which to choose a graphic. It's my usual reasoning - Lemmings is an animated video game, not a picture puzzle. If absolutely everything has to be clear when the game is paused, why animate anything at all?

NeoLemmix wants secondary animations for a reason: they make things more clear whilst the game is in motion and being played. I'd say this is a better basis for a decision either way (i.e. whichever version we choose, we need to be happy with the animated version).

(FWIW, I prefer the Walker sprite version, and will probably go ahead with this for SuperLemmix/my own style sets anyway) ;P
« Last Edit: March 13, 2024, 08:35:05 PM by WillLem »

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #20 on: March 13, 2024, 09:47:32 PM »
Quote
However, I disagree that this should be the basis on which to choose a graphic. It's my usual reasoning - Lemmings is an animated video game, not a picture puzzle. If absolutely everything has to be clear when the game is paused, why animate anything at all?

It is true that it's not the only point, but still a big one that needs to be considered.
Not everything has to be clear, but it should be if possible.

A lot of people start a level paused and already make conclusion while it is paused (You cannot avoid this situation!) - quite a few new players as well and I already saw cases of confusion because of design not taking this into account.
Simply pushing it to the side and ignore the problem with "Lemmings is an animated video game, not a picture puzzle" it not the player friendly approach here - especially if through a more thought out design it can be avoided in the first place. And it can be avoided in this case!

Online WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #21 on: March 13, 2024, 10:49:48 PM »
A lot of people start a level paused and already make conclusion while it is paused (You cannot avoid this situation!) - quite a few new players as well and I already saw cases of confusion because of design not taking this into account.

I realise that it's a popular method used by many of the Forum's best solvers, and agree it should probably be taken into account.

It is sometimes frustrating, though, to be watching an LP and have the player be asking "what the heck is happening there?" when the answer would immediately present itself by unpausing the game and letting it play! :eyeroll:

I felt the need to show support for an animated solution to this problem because people do seem to be leaning towards the graphic being more static. With that said, happy to take everything into account and do whatever's best overall.

it can be avoided in this case!

Fair enough. Ultimately, I'll stand by whatever the majority vote is for NL.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #22 on: March 14, 2024, 08:29:51 PM »
I agree that the arrow version is better, as the animation is more of an enhancement to the visuals rather than outright required to figure out what you're looking at. I don't like to go *too* far with the picture puzzle mentality but it's much more convenient the fewer things I need to go send a lemming to test (particularly if just figuring out how to get a lemming over to the thing I want to test in the first place is part of the puzzle!) And when I'm inspecting the level I will generally have the game paused so I don't have distractions from things happening elsewhere.

Though I wonder if it might be a good idea to have an option to continue playing idle animations while the game is paused (triggered animations, such as those for triggered traps, would be a bad idea since it would make it less clear when the trap is active again). Maybe that's a dumb idea, idk. Just throwing it out there, really.

Online WillLem

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] Visual designs of new objects
« Reply #23 on: March 15, 2024, 10:00:00 AM »
Though I wonder if it might be a good idea to ... continue playing idle animations while the game is paused

That's actually a really good idea. It's theoretically possible to animate everything except lemmings whilst the game is paused. That way, we wouldn't have to worry about the animation being "pause-friendly" and could concentrate simply on getting the right animation for the object.

It's unlikely that this will be considered for official NeoLemmix, but it's certainly something I'll look into for SuperLemmix and the post-final-release forked version of NeoLemmix that's looking more and more likely to happen all the time.