Author Topic: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)  (Read 7204 times)

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Offline Ste Woz Ere

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The summer solstice has recently passed, and the sun shines down upon you L2 fans...for I can now reveal my level pack in progress - Tribes of Steel!

Apparently someone discovered a prophecy that foretells the death of all lemkind, so the 12 tribes were all told to assemble at their base camps (prefabs erected just in case something like this would happen) with their talisman piece and embark on a journey to the centre of the island in order to escape certain doom.



Note: Current version info can be found at the bottom of this post, as that's where the download link will be.

==========
The Background
==========

A few months ago, I played Quest from Kieran 2 and was enthralled by it - so much so, that I still had thoughts about it long after I'd finished...and recently they persuaded me to have a go at L2 editing myself. One concept level and a bit of learning time on the editors later, and I think it's Thunder-Lemmings are Go!

Based on the same concept as QFK2* with some concepts of my own too, this is a full 120-level replacement. While I'm no stranger to level design (I made concept-based Doom/Heretic/Hexen level packs for 10-15 years), I doubt I'll be able to hit the puzzling heights of QFK2. I will try though, and the new level+skill combos are already bearing fruit. Besides, I've got plenty of ideas up my sleeve to ensure it looks, feels and plays differently (and it's showing already in the levels I've done so far). I'm hoping it'll end up somewhere between QFK2 and the original game on the quality scale (preferably closer to QFK2 ofc), but as long as it plays differently I don't mind.

And just in case you are worried about the execution side and the engine's quirks...there's always DOSBox with savestates. Not quite as sophisticated as NL, but it does the trick. (and given what happened when I played QFK3, there won't be any ridiculous manoeuvres requiring savestate abuse)

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, as I'm no expert. If you manage to break a level, please let me know what you did (I'm bound to miss things, esp. given that you guys have played a lot more than me). I don't really know much about glitches either, so there's bound to be a few somewhere.

Note: I've not been around the forums that long, but I am already aware that high-execution puzzles are generally frowned upon. So I will try to ensure that the intended route for each level will never include incredibly precise moves (notably with twisters in the first 2 tribes) that are very hard to pull off - if it seems a bit OTT it's probably the wrong method.

I will ofc be impressed with successful alternative routes of this nature (as I've seen already in playtesting), but there will be an easier way.


=========
The Concepts
=========

Each tribe has it's own fixed set of themed skills - like QFK2*, but with many changes. (nearly all tribes have at least 2 differing skills)
The first level of each tribe is exactly the same - but with different skills each time. (some are easy, some are hard)
The last level of each tribe has 10 (!) trapdoors - ensuring an epic finale. (having groups of 6 lemmings will open up a new set of solutions and a different approach to solving)
Each tribe requires the full 60 lemmings to reach the end. Classic requires 50, and level names will end in a number to show the death count.

* it partly feels like I'm ripping off the idea, so I apologise for that. But it is how I would've made the original L2 if it was me. Together with my own concepts and challenges, I'm confident it will play differently to QFK2.

=======
The Tribes
=======

It wouldn't be complete without a sneak preview, so here it is. Click on the spoiler for details.

Highland (click to show/hide)

Circus (click to show/hide)

Classic (click to show/hide)

Medieval (click to show/hide)

Egyptian (click to show/hide)

Outdoor (click to show/hide)

Beach (click to show/hide)

Sports (click to show/hide)

Shadow (click to show/hide)

Cavelem (click to show/hide)

Space (click to show/hide)

Polar (click to show/hide)

=========
How to Install
=========

Back up your current /LEVELS/ folder within Lemmings 2, then extract the contents of the zip into there, overwriting the existing files.

How to run Lemmings 2 in DOSBox

If you wish to play with the Amiga music instead, grab them from this thread and play externally. (with the PC music turned off)

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1803.msg44855#msg44855

========
How to Play
========

You have to manually save the game from the main menu, in between levels.

Keyboard shortcuts:

ESC: Quick Restart
F1 - F8: Skills 1-8 (sadly not as usable as L1, particularly on levels not using all 8 skills)
SPACE: Fan (required for several skills)
P: Pause (you can also unpause by pressing Space, if you want the fan ready when you do)
ENTER: Fast Forward (you can also cancel this by pressing Space, if you want the fan ready when you do)

If using DOSBox with savestates (highly recommended), you also have these:

ALT+F5: Save state
ALT+F6: Previous slot
ALT+F7: Next slot
ALT+F9: Load state

(10 save slots in total, with wraparound when selecting)

I still recommend saving your game manually too.

==============
Current Version - 13.8
  (download link at the bottom of the post)
==============

All 12 tribes complete.  The final release will come after testing/tweaking, along with a video playthrough.

=====
Credits
(so far)
=====

geoo - for creating both L2Suite (excellent editor/organiser) and PCL2Ed. (which is required occasionally)
GuyPerfect - for creating lgl2. (the main level editor)
kieranmillar - for creating QFK2. (the amazing level pack that inspired me to follow in it's footsteps)

Feedback credits will be added later.

======
Footnote
======

This is a new journey for me (and an unexpected one too), but the ideas are coming thick and fast. I hope to complete it by the time the winter solstice has recently passed, but will probably end up in next year. Either way, only the 3rd full Lemmings 2 game in 30 years will be something to look forward to!
« Last Edit: June 28, 2022, 05:53:45 PM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline mobius

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
« Reply #1 on: July 01, 2021, 10:27:00 PM »

just want to say this (basically any L2 project) is a huge undertaking so good job so far! I want to play, can't promise that I will but I will try, and I'll be sure to comment!
In any case these levels look nice and well done; I like the same concept of the same layout in all the styles.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
« Reply #2 on: July 04, 2021, 12:10:18 AM »
Well, I've only gone and done it...my first ever L2 tribe. Only 1 skill change from QFK2 but it's made a hell of a difference.

I've tried to make sure they are breakproof, but I'm sure there will still be some...please have a go and let me know if you find any. (I'm aware of one backroute that's still in, but it's harder to pull off than the intended route - see if you can find it!)

See the OP for download. (attachment at the bottom)

====================
Version 2.0 has been released
====================

Highland - tribe is now complete.

Highland 1 (Base Camp) - updated the grassy bit to look better.

(note: only the Highland intro level is in this version, the others will release with their respective tribes)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:30:26 PM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
« Reply #3 on: July 05, 2021, 09:59:03 AM »
Looks like I missed a couple of things after releasing it...


====================
Version 2.1 has been released
====================

Highland 4 (Lemfidditch Distillery) - reworked the level slightly, added 1 roper. (which I'd removed just before release)
Highland 9 (Sky-High Installation) - reduced mortars to 12. (I'd removed a mortar section just before release, but forgot the skills)
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:30:46 PM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2021, 11:16:51 AM »
I'm enjoying this now. Coming up with ways to use different skills, and I also had two extra "skills" to play with in this tribe...cannons and trampolines. No gimmicks like in the original game, they actually get used in puzzles here. (I even put in extra trapdoors so there are less lemmings needing to use the cannons)

Apologies to the anti-twister folks, but I promise it won't happen again - in fact nearly all destructive skills appear in 2 tribes each, it just so happens that the twister is in the first 2.


====================
Version 3.0 has been released
====================

Circus - tribe is now complete.

Circus 1 (Base Camp) - retextured it to match the colour scheme I used throughout the tribe.

There will be changes coming to the Highland levels in the next release, but I need a short break to take care of RL stuff.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2021, 01:29:41 PM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
« Reply #5 on: July 24, 2021, 07:56:00 PM »
Some early private feedback has uncovered a few Highland issues, along with some file copying errors that made certain levels go missing. I'm still not entirely sure on my design philosophy, which seems very different to QFK2's...I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on that and ways to improve it.


====================
Version 3.1 has been released
====================

All Highland levels should be properly available, following various file copying errors.

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - replaced the tricky cloud throw at the start with a bottle of whisky. (what else?)
Highland 4 (Lemfidditch Distillery) - reworked the level a bit, since it was causing trouble. Roper and rock climber removed, throwers down to 10.
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - slight tweak to the middle of the top section, to simplify it.
Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - added water across parts of the level, to stop the crawling glitch. (I'm a noob when it comes to knowing about these)
Highland 7 (Artillery Range) - fixed backroute involving a downward-mortar trick.
Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - removed hanging scenery from the cavern's right-side sloping ceiling, to make the roper/twister bit a little easier to handle.
Highland 9 (Sky-High Installation) - fixed backroute involving a downward-mortar trick and a somewhat clever rescue of the middle trapdoor. Also simplified the top half of the shaft climb, made the top twister section more forgiving and reduced mortars to 10.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2021, 07:26:22 AM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #6 on: July 28, 2021, 09:01:40 PM »
Amazing to see another big Lemmings 2 pack in the works. There's still so much more potential still to explore in Lemmings 2. I'm happy to playtest this and will try to find some time this week to record my first look at every level you make, I should have some time for a quick first look now, after making this post. I feel I should help give feedback on new Lemmings 2 levels and continue to encourage people to join me in making levels for Lemmings 2. The 10-level tribe concept is really fun to develop for, despite the quirks and limitations of building Lemmings 2 levels.

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #7 on: July 28, 2021, 11:05:20 PM »
I am going to record all of my first looks, as I feel this is the best way to give feedback, you get to see my entire process of trying levels and the things I do. Today I only had time to look at the first 3 Circus levels.

Note that I may end up changing my comments as I work through the level, so don't be put off by my initial Twister moaning in Circus 2 and worries of the time limit, in the end it was a tremendously good level.

Not sure if I broke Circus 3.

Sorry for the poor framerate in places. Did not notice it until editing afterwards, not sure what's going on there. I didn't use to have this problem, I'll have to investigate to fix future videos.

https://youtu.be/bFlsC6ACw6E

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2021, 02:34:47 PM »
Thanks for the opening feedback, very much appreciated :)

It's interesting (and kinda weird) to see my levels on YT and watching people try different ways to solve them, before finding a way past that I didn't think of :P (with some of the levels so far)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2021, 06:07:50 PM »
Time for the next video:

https://youtu.be/AWe4e2qWvts

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2021, 09:28:31 PM »
Again, I'm impressed with the alternative-route finding with those two...I should probably try to break my own levels before releasing :P
(although my Superlem skills are somewhat below yours, plus I wanted to get this tribe out before RL forced a break)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: July 30, 2021, 10:55:51 PM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #11 on: August 02, 2021, 05:30:40 PM »
The next tribe is coming along nicely, but here's some changes in the meantime:

====================
Version 3.2 has been released
====================


Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - removed a cloud and 2 ropers, moved some bits around.
Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - removed the hole and Superlem, doubled the laser blasters.
Circus 4 (Red vs. Blue) - added 1 min, replaced the Superlems with balloons and made the twister sections more forgiving.
Circus 5 (The Weighting Room) - added 2 mins.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2021, 09:00:55 PM »
Next video, covering only one level, Circus 6:

https://youtu.be/ytFwKPvNM2c

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2021, 08:31:59 PM »

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #14 on: August 06, 2021, 05:29:30 PM »
Really liking these videos, it's interesting to see all the different ways to solve each level.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At this point it's worth noting that the intended route for each level will never include incredibly precise moves (notably with twisters) that are very hard to pull off - if it seems a bit OTT it's probably the wrong method. I will ofc be impressed with successful alternative routes of this nature, but there will be an easier way.

Hopefully I'll have the next tribe ready over the weekend, but here's a new version in the meantime:

====================
Version 3.3 has been released
====================


Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - removed another cloud and 1 roper, rearranged things at the start a little.
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - replaced the chain swingers (masquerading as platforms) with actual platforms.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - added some metal blocks to the shaft, preventing possible twister backroutes. (as well as helping with the puzzle)
Circus 6 (Across the Abyss) - retextured it to look nicer, removed 2 attractors (they weren't really needed), replaced the chain swingers (masquerading as platforms) with actual platforms.
Circus 7 (Breakout) - lowered the blue & yellow trapdoors (to less than ow distance), increased twisters to 10. (matching the other heavy twister levels)
Circus 8 (Roadblock) - reworked the final puzzle a bit, removed 1 platformer, added 1 club basher.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - made the bottom Superlem manoeuvre more forgiving, simplified the carriage trapdoor puzzle, removed 3 platformers, added 5 jumpers.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2021, 05:40:17 PM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
« Reply #15 on: August 12, 2021, 09:00:35 PM »
Bit later than originally planned (RL etc.) but I'm now a quarter of the way there. I wasn't sure how I'd fare at Lemmings 1 levels, but I think I've done alright - the hardest base camp, some bitesize puzzles, a traditional time trial, a few nods to the original L1 and the odd sprawler. (I can't see them posing any real challenge here though, given the sheer number of L1 level packs over the years)

There is also now a titlepic. (bit crappy, but yay it's something)

====================
Version 4.0 has been released
====================


Classic - tribe is now complete.

Classic 1 (Base Camp) - lowered the water, to L1 height.
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - removed 1 club basher, after finding a massive flaw in the puzzle.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reworked the metal around the blue trapdoors, to make the twister section more forgiving.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
« Reply #16 on: August 12, 2021, 09:12:32 PM »
Oh hey nice, good job getting another tribe out. I had just finished recording and uploading my next video on 3.3.

https://youtu.be/QetLeTb9cW4

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
« Reply #17 on: August 14, 2021, 11:20:55 AM »
Very nice so far, things will get trickier though. (I was convinced I'd never be able to create puzzles as hard as yours, but 3 tribes in I'm not so sure now)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A quick update, after noticing a couple of errors (one of them major).

====================
Version 4.1 has been released
====================


Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - added a wall in front of the exit, removed 1 mortar and the base of each pillar. (to fix a somewhat clever backroute)
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - removed a graphical error and slightly extended the ledge over the blue house. (for easier roping)
Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - removed an erroneous pillar that would cause a backroute. (a failed attempt to add scenery above the exit)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
« Reply #18 on: August 18, 2021, 09:24:58 PM »
Latest playtesting video:
https://youtu.be/gmFnEV1SlGk

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
« Reply #19 on: August 19, 2021, 07:03:14 PM »
Looks like another update is needed, but that's what playtesting is for. (I appreciate it)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

====================
Version 4.2 has been released
====================


Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - added some more water (to stop crawlers), improved the left trapdoor cave. (to make it easier to control and escape from). Also added 1 min and 1 roper.
Classic 1 (Base Camp) - extended the highest part of land before the big wall. (to allow an easier method to be used)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
« Reply #20 on: August 23, 2021, 07:30:51 PM »

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2021, 07:19:01 PM »
Normally I'd reply sooner, but I've been busy...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...getting the next tribe done. I had fun with this one, particularly with the skill combos and trying to work catapults into puzzles (fairly easy after doing Circus though). I did want to move the roller to another tribe (namely Sports or Circus) but there was no room in either, plus it combo'd beautifully with some of the other skills...so I rolled with it. (heh)

====================
Version 5.0 has been released
====================


Medieval - tribe is now complete.

Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - replaced the swinging chain with a pair of giant arrows, to indicate whether the wedge staircases go up or down. Also filled in the space I didn't use with a bit of scenery.
Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - replaced the diamond in the top right corner with the aforementioned swinging chain scenery. (he's drunk)
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - reworked the bottom section to have less gaps and removed 2 ropers. (that should kill the top route)
Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - reworked the top section slightly (to add more room on the way back down), added 1 hopper and 1 thrower.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - made the trapdoor directly above the exit safe, added 1 roper and removed 1 attractor. (I decided that only 1-2 trapdoors should be unsafe at the start of these epic 10-trapdoor levels)
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - added 1 laser blaster, in case lemmings get stuck in the wagon wheels.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (4 tribes complete)
« Reply #22 on: September 06, 2021, 10:29:50 AM »

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (4 tribes complete)
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2021, 10:36:00 PM »
Congrats on finishing a tribe! How would you rate the difficulty compared to QFK2? (hard to tell atm)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, no intermediate update for this version...as I move straight on to the next one. This tribe was interesting, despite having the same core concept (pots) it turned out completely different due to the skill changes and the way I used them. (notably using carpets to go up all the time instead of down)

====================
Version 6.0 has been released
====================


Egyptian - tribe is now complete.

Circus 8 (Roadblock) - increased the height of the blue+yellow column, added another club basher.
Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - speeded up the release rate (to stop a possible 2-death solution), removed 2 mins. (it's not as long as I thought)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - removed the wooden block next to the catapult. (manual containment is needed there anyway)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #24 on: September 13, 2021, 09:24:00 PM »
I played through the Highland tribe, the first video is from v4.2, so I replayed level 5 again with the changes from v5.0.
The videos are quite long, I could probably cut the time in half if I used savestates (or had been less adamant to conserve skills)...

https://youtu.be/7dPzEN_Z29k
https://youtu.be/riFHf1lFS-s

Not sure when I'll have time to go through the next tribe, or maybe we'll schedule a race with Simon, but I wanted to get this out at least.

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #25 on: September 15, 2021, 11:58:34 PM »
Thanks for the videos, it's great to have you on board. My thoughts on it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this also means that unlike the previous major version, this one didn't have to wait long for an intermediate update:

====================
Version 6.1 has been released
====================


Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - added 1 min.
Highland 9 (Sky-High Installation) - removed the block in the middle and moved the trapdoor down a bit (to prevent anyone escaping). Also added some red blocks to make the top twister section a bit less risky on the fall.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - raised the height of the red building (to prevent the easy mortar escape), removed the metal from the tall shafts (no longer needed). Also moved the trapdoors around so the one just above the water is now first.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reworked the rightmost yellow trapdoor (so it no longer requires a bridge), added 5 jumpers.
Classic 10 (Random Lemming Pun) - reworked the terrain under the centre trapdoor. (to make controlling it a lot easier, and to avoid a potentially misleading path at the start)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - added more room to the trapdoor by the lake.


Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2021, 04:24:38 PM »
I managed to squeeze in another session before I'm out for a month, this time with savestates. :)

I revisited Highland 9 and 10, and then went through the Circus tribe. Circus still seems to have a whole lot of backroutes, but those levels that don't had some nice puzzles to offer.

Highland 9-10
Circus 1-4 (and having a look at Circus 5)
Circus 5-10

In an earlier post you asked about how the difficulty compares to QFK2. I think your levels are a bit more open-ended, with larger skill sets than QFK2, which to me makes them feel a bit easier to figure out but also a bit tricker to execute (as there's more stuff to be done), though the extra skills often alleviate the execution woes a bit. QFK most of the time had fewer skill placements (pretty much just those essential to the main puzzle), and whenever possible the terrain was shaped to make these easy to execute.

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #27 on: September 22, 2021, 10:24:32 PM »
Nicely done. Next tribe is going quite slowly, so plenty of time to catch up a bit.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, here's another update for those pesky clowns:

====================
Version 6.2 has been released
====================


Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - added metal to fix a backroute.
Circus 5 (The Weighting Room) - added 1 min.
Circus 8 (Roadblock) - straightened up the roadblock itself (metal), to fix a backroute.
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - added metal above the blue trapdoor, to fix a backroute.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2021, 07:18:35 PM »
And so we reach the halfway point...and not for the first time I have my doubts about the way it's progressing. I know my levels are somewhat bigger than QFK2's with more to do in each one, and that's kinda how I like them...but I also get the impression that sort of design isn't popular. My design philosophy is also different, favouring strong (often unusual) themes (along with the odd gimmick) and designing around those (unless I have a strong puzzle idea).

What do people think - should they be smaller? Fewer skills? Terrain favouring execution rather than theme? Or is it better to be a stark contrast to QFK2 but with more bits that could go wrong?

(sorry for rambling on, it's what goes on in a level designer's head sometimes. Doesn't help that the twister was in the first 2 tribes though...leading to a bad first impression on the execution side)

Anyway, onto the release...this tribe took a bit longer than the others (partly due to RL) but it had some cool bits and another really good aerial combo. The accidental discovery of a new feature late on didn't help matters (cue the rush to incorporate it into a few levels), but it's finally done:

====================
Version 7.0 has been released
====================

Outdoor - tribe is now complete.

Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - added 1 stacker. (I realised there wasn't enough redundancy built in)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #29 on: October 11, 2021, 06:35:50 PM »
It's been a surprisingly sunny autumn so far, which goes nicely with the next tribe.  Having the platformer again* made for some nice combos, and I like making useless skills useful. Also did some interesting feats of architecture, given the odd terrain shapes and lack of 45° slopes (thankfully the sculpting was nowhere near as annoying as Outdoor, as the tiles align much better...though I'm not looking forward to sculpting Cavelem)

* apologies builder fans, but I'm just finding the platformer more useful overall atm. Once I'm done with the next tribe though, the builders will come out in force.

====================
Version 8.0 has been released
====================

Beach - tribe is now complete.

Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - altered the height of 2 buildings, removed 1 twister, added 2 mortars. (twist-through-the-ceiling was my first QFK2 backroute, but I can't seem to force it here...instead the 2nd twister was used for backroutes)
Circus 5-6 - swapped places.
Circus 7-9 - moved 9 forward two places, pushing 7 & 8 back one.


Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #30 on: October 30, 2021, 11:47:28 PM »
Just in time for Halloween, the scariest tribe arrives (at least in vanilla it is). I really enjoyed playing with this skill set, there's a lot can be done with it (except for the pole vault ofc, which can do precisely 2 things). Throw in some steam*, trampolines and one of my best level ideas and you have this:

* We all have nightmares of that silly opening level from vanilla, but nothing like that here. Instead, they are puzzles, obstacles or a means to gain height.

====================
Version 9.0 has been released
====================

Sports - tribe is now complete.

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - moved the diamond down so it can be roped into. (it should've been moved earlier)
Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - slightly lengthened the start area, +2 miners, -1 platformer, -1 stacker.
Beach 3 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - removed a test trapdoor that was preventing the level from being completed. (doh)

In addition, I've gone through all of the tribes and altered the release rates...as most levels were left at the default value.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2021, 12:01:36 AM »
And so we reach the halfway point...and not for the first time I have my doubts about the way it's progressing. I know my levels are somewhat bigger than QFK2's with more to do in each one, and that's kinda how I like them...but I also get the impression that sort of design isn't popular. My design philosophy is also different, favouring strong (often unusual) themes (along with the odd gimmick) and designing around those (unless I have a strong puzzle idea).

What do people think - should they be smaller? Fewer skills? Terrain favouring execution rather than theme? Or is it better to be a stark contrast to QFK2 but with more bits that could go wrong?

(sorry for rambling on, it's what goes on in a level designer's head sometimes. Doesn't help that the twister was in the first 2 tribes though...leading to a bad first impression on the execution side)
Apologies for vanishing suddenly and being away for a while. That just happens with me. I still plan to play through this all.

I don't think you should worry about whether or not this is similar to QFK2. I'm not a good judge regardless, but I always was worried that QFK2 was too focused on difficult puzzles where people would just get stuck a lot until they figure out the "trick", a level style that actually only crops up rarely in official Lemmings games. I feel there's definitely an audience for levels more your style, I enjoy them at least. What I've played so far is very good, don't be put off by my griping about the Twister, that's just the Twister being the Twister.

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2021, 12:29:10 AM »
Three quarters down, one to go.  This was definitely my favourite tribe for the actual level design, as I love it's night-time city setting. Bit of an odd skill set (explosions aren't the easiest way to tunnel) and perhaps not enough use of "the combo", but that does mean I used all aspects of the tribe a bit more. (and I'm particularly pleased with some of the filler tricks)

====================
Version 10.0 has been released
====================

Shadow- tribe is now complete.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (10 tribes complete)
« Reply #33 on: November 25, 2021, 12:28:13 AM »
Well, that was quick. I thought this tribe would take longer due to the awkward nature of the terrain, but it actually fitted together quite nicely (the tiling woes that I faced in Outdoor never really materialised here). The skillset isn't bad either - wings are ok when you get used to it (better than the other flying skills IMO), spears turned out more useful than I thought (despite not being able to chain them), and stacks are always handy.

====================
Version 11.0 has been released
====================

Cavelem - tribe is now complete.

Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - removed the immediate danger from the leftmost trapdoor. Also swapped them around so the one by the lake goes first. (these should allow you to get cracking on the exit section immediately)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (10 tribes complete)
« Reply #34 on: November 29, 2021, 11:23:38 PM »
I went through Medieval, Classic and Egypt.

Videos are here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJNO01n86P6LXjn6NNxy1EYVWc9LtCYFu

I was positively surprised by Classic (I generally don't care for L2 classic), and Egypt is my favourite tribe so far.

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
« Reply #35 on: December 03, 2021, 12:36:01 AM »
Great to hear from you again, and some great feedback too - many fixes to make:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've currently got around a third of Space to go, so here's a interim update with all the fixes:

====================
Version 11.1 has been released
====================


Highland 1 (Base Camp) - re-set the correct size, so it isn't a garbled mess. (ouch)
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - added 1 twister and removed 2 mortars, reverting the previous change. (alternative solutions will always be a part of these epic finales, and I was impressed with the one in the video)
Classic 6 (Chambers of Aquatia) - removed 1 builder and 1 digger.
Classic 7 (Stepping Up and Down) - extended a block to shorten the area just above the exit.
Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - added a block between the fire jets in the exit area.
Classic 9 (Split at the Hill) - added metal to the left block, moved metal up the right block, removed 5 builders.
Classic 10 (Random Lemming Pun) - removed 5 floaters and 2 miners, reverted the previous change to the middle trapdoor.
Medieval 2 (Finishing the Arc) - removed the small hill, added metal to the starting ledges.
Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - removed the mess from the last update (ugh), slightly altered the exit area, reduced stackers to 2 and miners to 1.
Medieval 4 (Hack & Slash) - added metal to the starting areas.
Medieval 6 (Dungeon & Dragon) - moved the forgotten trapdoor to the grass area just outside the dungeon.
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - extended the middle trapdoor tunnel area, moved the catapult back.
Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - added metal to the base of the start pillars.
Egyptian 3 (Tomb of Ikea) - shortened the ceiling table.
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - reworked the gap between trapdoor and exit. (so it can't be cheesed)
Egyptian 9 (The Plunger's Tomb) - removed all sand pourers (so it can't be cheesed), slightly reworked some areas to compensate.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (10 tribes complete)
« Reply #36 on: December 06, 2021, 10:57:06 PM »
And the missing third is done. This was always one of my favourite tribes, but the original game didn't really do it justice IMO. QFK2 righted that, and here's my attempt at doing the same.  Space glue was awesome...I know the builder combo is OP but it gave me a lot of ideas and it led to some great combos with other skills. Jetpacks are a bit awkward but I found them to be quite useful for little things as well as the odd bigger thing. (always with plenty of room and spares like with other hard-to-execute skills)

Anyhow, one more tribe to go and quite a fitting one for the time of year. (we even had snow last week)

====================
Version 12.0 has been released
====================

Space - tribe is now complete.

Egyptian 6 (Wade in the Water) - shortened the containment area for the right-side trapdoor. (it's not as deep now, which fixes a backroute). I also forgot to include this one in the last update. (doh)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (11 tribes complete)
« Reply #37 on: December 22, 2021, 12:50:49 AM »
The winter solstice has recently passed, and as originally planned/hoped for, I have managed to complete the final tribe!
Like the previous two tribes, it came together really well with some neat skill combos and puzzles (despite losing a cool skier trick on the final level due to it causing weird graphical bugs and random crashes). Possibly not as hard as many of the other tribes, but I'm really happy with how it's turned out.

This won't be the final release, as they're bound to be full of backroutes and testing/feedback would be very welcome in order to get rid of them. I'm also planning a full video playthrough when the final release is ready.

====================
Version 13.0 has been released
====================

Polar - tribe is now complete.

All levels that weren't using their full size are now doing so, with extra scenery (L1-style).*

Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - replaced the newly-added block with metal. (just to ensure it can't be glitched)
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - reworked the middle trapdoor again, removed a few skills and 1 min.
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassable) - lengthened the thin shaft that the rock climber uses to reach the sewers.
Space 7 (JMC Mining Complex) - closed the mine shaft, added a few skills. (I realised that one bit of the puzzle could be bypassed, and I like this new solution better)

* Dunno how it got like this, it just kinda happened as I went along. As there was only a handful of early levels that were not using all the available room, I decided to bring those into line. I also like detailing stuff. None of the actual play areas are changed, and it's a nod to the original L1 too.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Congratulations on making it all the way to an entire 120 level pack. A huge achievement!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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I've mostly been doing other stuff since the release, but I have had a look back at various levels that I wasn't entirely happy with (mainly in the tribes that haven't been playtested by others yet) and made some changes....also discovering a few bugs along the way.  So here's a new version with various improvements:

====================
Version 13.1 has been released
====================


Space 4 (Defying Gravity) and Space 5 (Orbital Bombardment) have swapped places.

Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - made some small changes around the middle of the level, to try and improve the flow a bit. Also added 2 builders and 2 platformers for flexibility. (using up every skill isn't a priority in this one)
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - re-added the 3rd trapdoor (there was originally 4 before release) to stop a backroute.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - made the bottom left trapdoor safe, removed 1 roper. (wasn't needed and could ruin 1 puzzle)
Beach 9 (Beach Hut BBQ) - reworked the main puzzle in order to save it, also removing 10 sand pourers. The new version is much quicker to complete, so the time limit has been reduced. (it was way too high anyway)
Sports 6 (Dynamic Duo) - fixed the release rate to what it should be. (how this happened I have no clue. On one of the best levels too)
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - moved the chain swingers to another level, as it was causing sprites to disappear. Also reworked the puzzle slightly, in order to remove dependence on an obscure trick that is discovered in the previous level.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - added a block to the right-side of the water, for the same reason as above.
Shadow 3 (Air Raid) - lowered the tower block slightly and reworked the underground section a bit, in order to save the final puzzle. (by making the builder+roper use consistent)
Shadow 4 (Filling Station) - reworked the main puzzle in order to save it. Removed all the bombers, plus 4 bazookas and 2 rock climbers.
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - improved the upward section a little, speeded up the release rate greatly.
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - removed the water and 6 fillers.
Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - extended the water trough, added metal down to the 2-igloo platform. (backroute fix)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Another fixing/tweaking pass, mostly focusing on tribes that I hadn't really gone over in the absence of playtest reports (these are really important for finding backroutes that I haven't found), and one tribe that needed a bit of work in general:

====================
Version 13.2 has been released
====================

Medieval 2 (Finishing the Arc) and Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) have swapped places with Medieval 4 (Hack & Slash) and Medieval 5 (Cave of Knaves).

Circus 5 (Across the Abyss) - removed the attractor and 1 min. (there is another way to stop the cannon for a while, one that doesn't clump the lemmings up and harm one of the solutions). Also added another trampoline, to make retrieving the platformer lemming easier.
Medieval 5 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - added 1 roller and dragons to the top section. (after finding yet another roller trick while fixing a different level)
Medieval 6 (Dungeon & Dragon) - moved the left trapdoor onto the sloping ledge, added 1 archer (slight improvements).
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) -  filled in 2 gaps, altered the amount of several skills. (this prevents the builder puzzle at the top from being backrouted, along with streamlining the rest of the level)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - removed 4 platformers (after realising you could easily backroute it), added 1 miner/stacker, made some improvements to the far-right area.
Egyptian 6 (Wade in the Water) - removed 1 small pool, and extended 1 medium pool.
Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - shortened the wooden ledge sequence, to tighten up the race a bit.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - removed 1 ledge, extended the vine ladder and tweaked the final bit, to streamline it a little.
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - reworked the right-side trapdoor, to accommodate the roper puzzle from the next level.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - moved the roper puzzle to the previous level. (it's a bit cruel to spring it on you right at the end)
Beach 7 (Sandy Cove) - made the ceiling flat, in order to prevent a possible backroute. Also fixed a bug in the skill set that made the level impossible...it now correctly has divers instead of floaters. (I hate the way that L2 screws up the skill display on the level intro screen if any 0-skill boxes are present, forcing me to rearrange them on the editor when a level is finished...which is what caused this bug)
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) - removed all the upper ledges from the middle section of the cave, to prevent possible backroutes.
Cavelem 9 (Devolution of Lemmings) - reworked the bottom slightly, removed 2 builders. (to firmly remove any chance of backrouting it, but still with a spare to cover a particular gap that's tricky to do in 1)

I've also added a copy of my savegame file (save.dat) to the zip, so that levels can be skipped if you get stuck. It also ensures that Classic will have the right number of lemmings on each level.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Another update, this time focusing on the 10-trapdoor levels that end each tribe. These are meant to be an epic finale that fits my design philosophy (which favours innovative ideas/concepts) along with a review of what you've learned from the tribe. I really want these levels to work, as it's such an unusual concept that really changes things up. I've shifted some of the new tricks/puzzles into other levels wherever I could, along with making some improvements for reliability and execution. (as the logistical challenge is great enough with these levels)

====================
Version 13.3 has been released
====================

Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - added metal to the thin shaft (to prevent twistering all the way down) and 2 mortars for flexibility.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - added metal to one trapdoor, and 3 ballooners to cover any mishaps at the bottom. (I really wanted to add more twisters, but doing so would break the yellow trapdoors)
Classic 4 (Bridging the Gap) - added 1 builder and 2 diggers, to cover all possible mishaps with the climber.
Classic 5 (Old Ways, New Tiles) - reworked the right-side trapdoor area and added 3 climbers, to allow more reliable ways of releasing the blocker.
Classic 7 (Stepping Up and Down) - added 2 builders and 1 climber to increase the margin of error. (also small blocks to prevent the new backroute)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - compressed the top section a little. (not that it really changes much apart from looks)
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - reworked the top to accommodate the puzzle from L10.
Egyptian 10 (Mandatory Pyramid Level) - moved the puzzle in the bottom-right corner to L8 and simplified the area. Removed 2 stompers.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - cosmetic changes to the exit area, which also helps the roper.
Beach 10 (Artificial Resort) - reworked the skillset a little, to hopefully offer more pointers.
Sports 4 (A Mountain to Climb) - moved back 2 places to L6.
Sports 5 (Hold the Line) - moved forward 1 place to L4.
Sports 6 (Dynamic Duo) - moved forward 1 place to L5.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - added the puzzle from L10, replaced the large red ball with a small white ball (to make the first arrows easier to place), also added skills to ensure that the end tunnel can be done reliably.
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - replaced the puzzle in the top-left corner with a different one (moving it to L7), tweaked some parts of the level to make things a little more reliable.
Shadow 2 (Urban Gymnastics) - slight tweak to one of the climbing sections. (in case you don't know about shimmying directly onto an upward 45° slope)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - altered the amount of construction skills, to focus more on ropers with the builders as support.
Cavelem 10 (Dinosaur Islands) - tweaked the bottom section, which also enables the double-dino-flick to the exit area. It should now be much clearer where to build, as well as consistent enough to avoid a spare builder breaking the exit puzzle. Skills altered as a result, notably 5 less builders are required now.
Space 9 (Space Glue Factory) - added some metal blocks to the underside of the top section, to make the fiddly part easier.
Space 10 (The Colonies of Desyat) - tweaked the long underground cave and enlarged the metal box above it, to make things easier.
Polar 10 (Escape from Hawker Island) - slight tweaks to the mini-caves under the ice patch, to make it a touch easier.

I've also updated the savegame file (save.dat) so it has the correct data now.

In case you're wondering about Classic 10, it didn't need any changes. Thanks to geoo's video, the solution was altered last time round and I think it's spot-on now.

Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Another major update - focusing on everything else, notably levels that I hadn't visited since they were made:

====================
Version 13.4 has been released
====================

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - moved the golf course up a notch, to prevent roper spam from reaching it.
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - +1 thrower, -2 mortars.
Highland 7 (Artillery Range) - lowered the height of the first water pit and increased the size of the gap beyond it. (for easier execution)
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - -1 roper.
Circus 2 (Devil vs. Strongman) - moved the exit back down to where it should be.
Circus 4 (Red vs. Blue) - lowered some sections to make the jumps easier.
Circus 9 (Roadblock) - slight tweak to the first 2 puzzle areas, reduced the height of the blue/yellow block in the 3rd.
Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - shortened the metal block above the exit. (to shave a couple of seconds off the time needed)
Classic 6 (Chambers of Aquatia) - tweaked the exit to re-enable the bottom route, +1 basher, improved the release rate.
Medieval 2 (Hack & Slash) - made the middle trapdoor safe, added a bunch of skills and 1 min.
Medieval 3 (Cave of Knaves) - reworked the right-side trapdoors for easier execution, added a bunch of skills and 1 min.
Medieval 4 (Finishing the Arc) - reworked the far end to make the main puzzle a bit cleaner, -2 platformers, +2 archers.
Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - moved one section down slightly, improved the release rate.
Egyptian 3 (Tomb of Ikea) - removed the shimmiers and 3 carpets (they were leftovers from when the level was more complex), improved the release rate.
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - improved the release rate.
Outdoor 5 (Treetop Village) - slight tweak to first trapdoor, +1 roper.
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - extended the lower ledge on both sides, +1 kayaker.
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - +1 platformer, +1 bomber.
Beach 2 (The Sand Pit) - added metal to the holding area (backroute fix), lowered the exit, -3 divers, -3 floaters.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - fixed an ugly cloud. (who wants ugly clouds)
Beach 8 (Dune Climbing Contest) - added a bunch of skills for easier execution, and 2 mins.
Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - removed the pole vaulters. (not needed)
Sports 3 (Letting Off Steam) - reworked the start area slightly, +5 shimmiers, +1 platformer, -1 fencer.
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - removed the need for the 2nd arrow bridge, -5 archers.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - reworked the bottom trapdoor area to fix a backroute, -1 fencer, +1 miner, +1 min.
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - +2 mins.
Shadow 3 (Air Raid) - moved the filler puzzle to L5, slight tweak to skill count.
Shadow 4 (Filling Station) - tweaked one section to prevent the possibility of saving a builder.
Shadow 5 (Water Works) - major rework of the middle+right sections to fix a backroute and add the filler puzzle from L3.
Shadow 7 (Sewers Smell Bad) - +1 roper, -5 builders, +1 bazooka. (gives a choice of methods while making it slightly less of a slog)
Shadow 8 (Production Line) - +1 roper, +2 bombers. (in case something goes wrong)
Cavelem 4 (Ruined Temple) -  moved the 2nd dino and the ledges slightly (for reliability), +2 stackers.
Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) -  removed the ledge under the carcass to fix a backroute.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) -  reworked the trapdoor and dino areas a little, +5 stompers.
Cavelem 8 (Up in the Jungle) -  improved the right-side trapdoors, added some skills.
Space 4 (Orbital Bombardment) - removed the middle block on both outer ships. Also removed the mortars and added a bunch of bazookas+jetpacks to make it a full bombardment now.
Polar 2 (Piste Off) - reworked the bottom section to make this the no-roper level in the tribe. (see L9 changes)
Polar 4 (It's All Downhill!) - lowered the cavern above the exit, shortened the topmost dig, -1 roper, -1 stacker.
Polar 6 (Ice Box Challenge) - lowered the topmost trapdoor, -1 min.
Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - slight rework of the side caves, -1 climber, +1 flamethrower, +1 min.
Polar 9 (Avalanche Rescue Team) - added a new puzzle by extending the top right cavern to the edge, +1 roper, +5 flamethrowers, -1 scooper.

As for the final release, it'll probably have to be after L2Player - while savestate DOSBox is fine for this pack, I get the feeling that the bigger level sizes have put people off (due to more moving parts), and as a result L2Player's framestepping should make it appeal more. In some ways it kinda feels like the L2 equivalent of advanced NL packs, where the player aids are pretty much required. (despite me avoiding really high-execution moments and pixel-precision puzzles)

Quote from: kieranmillar
I always was worried that QFK2 was too focused on difficult puzzles where people would just get stuck a lot until they figure out the "trick", a level style that actually only crops up rarely in official Lemmings games.

The main reason for that is because there are so many skills and tricks that can be done (either on their own or with a combo) - whereas with L1 it's mainly the glitches/exploits or advanced tricks that only cropped up in the age of internet video sharing.

I've done exactly the same regarding tricks/puzzles (esp. with the different skill combos compared to QFK2), and thinking up those sort of puzzles was the thing I enjoyed most about making this pack.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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What started out as a couple of fixes turned into another major update - this time going over everything. I'm hoping that most or all of the backroutes are gone*, so I've mainly been focusing on improving the execution side. (adding skills, fixing terrain etc.)

* I don't mind alternative routes, as long as there's no shortcuts or breaking/bypassing major puzzles. So those are still in, especially in L1/L10 which are like that by nature.

====================
Version 13.5 has been released
====================

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - the bottle of whisky has fallen off the cloud and into the water. Added 2 throwers.
Highland 7 (Artillery Range) - +3 mortars. (in case something goes wrong)
Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - moved the exit and surrounding ledges down a touch. (to make the ballooning easier)
Circus 4 (Red vs. Blue) - reworked most of the bottom section, reduced platformers to 6, increased jumpers to 30 and renamed it to "Don't Capture the Flag". (not sure if this fixes the backroute but it's harder to get if it doesn't)
Classic 6 (Chambers of Aquatia) - +1 basher. (to give greater control over the main puzzle)
Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - swapped the order of the middle & right trapdoors.
Medieval 2 (Hack & Slash) - swapped with L3.
Medieval 3 (Cave of Knaves) - swapped with L2.
Medieval 4 (Finishing the Arc) - fixed a bug that was cutting off the very top of the level.
Medieval 6 (Dungeon & Dragon) - swapped with L7.
Medieval 7 (White Cliffs of Dunder) - swapped with L6.
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) - tweaked a couple of the staircases, +2 fencers. (in case something goes wrong)
Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - +1 basher. (in case something goes wrong at the end)
Egyptian 3 (Tomb of Ikea) - moved to L6. Also added/changed a few skills to account for different outcomes of the main puzzle.
Egyptian 4 (Night Boat to Duat) - moved to L3. Also removed a filler and a glue pourer.
Egyptian 6 (Wade in the Water) - moved to L4.
Egyptian 7 (Sidestepping Evolution) - moved some of the "bumps" around to make navigation easier.
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - removed 3 carpets and also the need for 1 carpet (to prevent one section from being cheesed). Added 3 shimmiers.
Egyptian 9 (The Plunger's Tomb) - +1 filler, -2 glue pourers, extended the lowest platform a little bit. (due to the weird behaviour in this area)
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - +1 bomber. (I found this improves the reliability of roping where there's loose pixels around)
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - -2 ballooners, +1 planter.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - +2 parachuters. (in case they're needed)
Beach 3 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - swapped with L4. Also added a pile of sand at the foot of the cliff. (to make the scooper more reliable)
Beach 4 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - swapped with L3.
Beach 5 (W is for...) - removed the cloud near the trapdoor. (bad)
Beach 7 (Sandy Cove) - moved to L8.
Beach 8 (Dune Climbing Contest) - moved to L9.
Beach 9 (Beach Hut BBQ) - moved to L7.
Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - reworked some areas (notably around the trapdoor), +2 runners, +5 shimmiers, -2 fencers.
Sports 3 (Letting Off Steam) - replaced the tennis rackets with a snooker table. (it was thematic to see them jumping off the rackets, but harder to execute)
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - -1 miner. (not needed)
Shadow 2 (Urban Gymastics) - -2 fillers. (not needed)
Shadow 3 (Air Raid) - reworked the left side, as it was possible to cheese the falling puzzle. Solution altered as a result and the skills have been changed accordingly. Also swapped with L4 due to increased difficulty.
Shadow 4 (Filling Station) - swapped with L3.
Shadow 8 (Production Line) - reworked the very bottom (to look more like a sewer under the factory), extended the ledges a touch, -3 bombers, +5 bazookas, -1 roper. (it broke the main puzzle, so the bazooka now covers any issues)
Shadow 9 (Mission Impassible) - -5 bazookas, +5 bombers. (this is now the no-bazooka level, due to the L8 changes)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - -2 builders. (not that it matters hugely in a rope-centric level)
Cavelem 2 (Land vs. Sea vs. Air) - +1 stomper. (in case anything goes wrong)
Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) -  +2 club bashers, +1 min. (in case anything goes wrong)
Cavelem 6 (Last Rule of Bash Club) - +1 min.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) -  +2 builders. (in case anything goes wrong)
Cavelem 10 (Dinosaur Islands) - raised the first dino island up a notch (to make one bit less tight), +1 builder as a result.
Space 3 (Magno Force) - changed the blocks around the pit. (to ensure the best solution)
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - +3 mortars. (in case something goes wrong)
Polar 2 (Piste Off) - slight scenery change on the far right. (to make it look more dangerous)
Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - swapped the topmost igloo+bear head, +2 skiers, +2 flamethrowers. (to prevent an unreliable alternative for containment)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - +1 flamethrower. (it may be needed sometimes)
Polar 10 (Escape from Hawker Island) - raised the tree by the exit slightly. (to make that final section easier)

Hopefully this will be the last big update before the final release, but I'm probably going to wait and see how L2Player develops, and ensure compatibility etc. before signing it off. (if anyone else tries to or has tried to break these levels in the meantime it would be handy to know the outcome)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Well it's been 9 months but I finally got around to playing this again and recording another video. Hopefully it won't be another 9 months until the next one.

https://youtu.be/UD2lO-xJy3M

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Great to hear from you again:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The more I think about it though, the more I think I've actually made this harder than QFK2 - and that's just on the puzzles. (not counting the larger level sizes and skill counts)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Here's part 10. I didn't look at your comments before recording this, in fact I've only just seen them.

https://youtu.be/mvgAA9m7KdY

This pack continues to be excellent and a lot of fun. Is it harder than QFK2? I have no idea, I am a poor judge of the difficulty of my own levels, but for sure this pack is quite tough. But I think it's a good difficulty level so far.


Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Nice vids of Shadow so far.  It was one of my favourite tribes to make, due to the setting and the skillset. (the bomber being a lot more flexible than I originally thought, which compensates for having just explosions to tunnel with)

Anyway, onto some notes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this leads onto a new build - please use this one, as it contains fixes to the remaining Shadow levels. (which you are about to play)

====================
Version 13.6 has been released
====================


Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - reworked some areas (notably around the trapdoor), changed some skill amounts.
Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - reworked the start area to remove the chance of breaking the main concept.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - reworked the first area, changed some skill amounts.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - reworked the bottom left corner and added some skills, altered the release rate. (it was still possible to break the main concept)
Shadow 2 (Urban Gymnastics) - moved the postbox to the right, removed a brick near the weird pit, +1 filler.
Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - removed a few bricks from under the 2nd trap tunnel. (backroute fix)
Shadow 4 (Air Raid) - extended the metal dividers between the underground trapdoors. (backroute fix)
Shadow 5 (Water Works) - added a long metal strip between the two trapdoor areas. (backroute fix)
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - partly reworked the area around the thin shaft and traps. (backroute fix)
Shadow 8 (Production Line) - added 2 exits, removed some scenery and all the bazookas, +3 bombers. (it was still possible to break the main puzzle)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassible) - restored the bazookas, there are now 12 of each explosion.
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - carved out a niche in the central shaft, to ensure that no rock climbers can escape. Also +5 bombers, as it was a little too tight.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2022, 09:03:05 PM by Ste Woz Ere »
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline geoo

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I played Outdoor and Beach (except for Beach 1, because for some reason there was a different level there): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJNO01n86P6LXjn6NNxy1EYVWc9LtCYFu
A lot of backroutes again, I think.

As for comparing to QFK2, I think the execution is harder here, but finding the solutions is a bit easier because the levels tend to be a bit more open-ended. Then again, I'm mostly finding backroutes so far, so maybe once they are fixed, it'll be a bit harder.

Offline geoo

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Also played through the Sports tribe now, that was definitely one of my favourites so far.

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Really appreciate this guys, thanks a lot. :)

I was about to do another update with Outdoor/Beach fixes, now I shall hold off until I've seen the Sports video.

(btw, I checked the 13.6 zipfile and Beach 1 is fine...it must be because the editor uses that level slot and something got corrupted)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Nice videos. Outdoor does seem broken in places, and Beach seems to be made of cheese rather than sand. I actually think Sports is one of the hardest tribes in the pack, so glad to hear you enjoyed it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this leads onto a new build with many changes:

====================
Version 13.7 has been released
====================


Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - extended the metal above the exit. (to match the metal below)
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - replaced the fence post by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - added some metal under the trapdoor area. (safer CC)
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - replaced the mushroom by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - lowered the tree down a touch. (to prevent ballooning directly out)
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - redesigned the middle, removed the 2nd trapdoor, raised the exits, altered some skill amounts.
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - removed the long vine sticking out of the tree on the left side.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - redesigned the buried trapdoor near the exit.

Beach 2 (The Sand Pit) - extended the pit to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - added a metal block to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - raised a ledge up to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - removed a little cloud to prevent it being cheesed. Also extended the cloud below the trapdoor, -1 diver, +3 flamethrowers. (a little bit of skill management going in there)
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - added another column of beach huts to the left trapdoor to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - some alterations to the cave itself. Also +2 surfers.
Beach 9 (Dune Climbing Contest) - added some sand and 1 platformer, to make the CC easier.
Beach 10 (Artificial Resort) - added 1 platformer, to make the CC in that area easier. (there was enough sand already)

Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - slight rework of the trapdoor area (again), this time adding a wall and 2 rock climbers.
Sports 3 (Letting off Steam) - removed the scenery-only steam jets, and added a slight visual clue for the valve.
Sports 4 (Hold the Line) - reduced fencers and archers to 1, miners by 1, added a few shimmiers and tweaked a couple of areas.
Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - removed a fencer, as it was the only way to preserve the main concept. (unfortunately that means you now have to fence the right way, but pausing always seems to work)
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - carved a metal-floored path under the valves, added wedges to enable a rock climber to get up to the top area. (instead of mining down from the valves)
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - altered the ceilings to prevent shimmiers from crossing. (so many great solutions in this tribe, that I have to remove one to protect another)
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - many alterations to many parts of the level. (it was quite hard to fix this one)
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - +1 min.
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - lowered the top of the pipe area (including the exit) down a touch, for easier execution. Also +5 miners for flexibility.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline kieranmillar

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Part 12. Will I finish Shadow Tribe in this video? You'll need to watch to find out!
https://youtu.be/3OAUlmet1zU

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Didn't expect that:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!

Offline Ste Woz Ere

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Another new build - after fixing a Shadow backroute, I decided to check over the last 3 tribes - just in case anything was wrong. And it was:

====================
Version 13.8 has been released
====================


Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassible) - replaced the gate with metal blocks, leaving only a thin shaft for the rock climber.

Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - some slight alterations to terrain and skill counts, to prevent any form of CC.
Cavelem 6 (Last Rule of Bash Club) - slightly reduced the skill counts.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) - added some more metal across the top of the cave.

Space 3 (Magno Force) - swapped with L4, weird pit edges removed and renamed "Alien Hideout".
Space 4 (Orbital Bombardment) - swapped with L3.
Space 6 (Laser Quest) - complete redesign of the middle, it's now puzzly instead of pure execution. Skills altered a bit too, and swapped with L7 due to increased difficulty.
Space 7 (JMC Mining Complex) - swapped with L6, slight alteration to one cave.
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - blocked the wrong side of the white teleporter. (it was a possible shortcut)

Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - a few changes, mainly to make the 2 big drops skier-proof. (I forgot they increase the splat distance a little)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - a couple of slight terrain changes, to make the solution a little less counter-contuitive.
Tribes of Steel - a whole new Lemmings 2 game! (120-level pack)
Currently a WIP - all tribes are complete, testing and feedback is welcome!