Lemmings Forums

Other Lemmings Projects => Levels for other engines => Topic started by: Ste Woz Ere on June 27, 2021, 11:27:36 PM

Title: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on June 27, 2021, 11:27:36 PM
The summer solstice has recently passed, and the sun shines down upon you L2 fans...for I can now reveal my level pack in progress - Tribes of Steel!

Apparently someone discovered a prophecy that foretells the death of all lemkind, so the 12 tribes were all told to assemble at their base camps (prefabs erected just in case something like this would happen) with their talisman piece and embark on a journey to the centre of the island in order to escape certain doom.

(https://i.imgur.com/asVEDmD.png)

Note: Current version info can be found at the bottom of this post, as that's where the download link will be.

==========
The Background
==========

A few months ago, I played Quest from Kieran 2 (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3655.0) and was enthralled by it - so much so, that I still had thoughts about it long after I'd finished...and recently they persuaded me to have a go at L2 editing myself. One concept level and a bit of learning time on the editors later, and I think it's Thunder-Lemmings are Go!

Based on the same concept as QFK2* with some concepts of my own too, this is a full 120-level replacement. While I'm no stranger to level design (I made concept-based Doom/Heretic/Hexen level packs for 10-15 years), I doubt I'll be able to hit the puzzling heights of QFK2. I will try though, and the new level+skill combos are already bearing fruit. Besides, I've got plenty of ideas up my sleeve to ensure it looks, feels and plays differently (and it's showing already in the levels I've done so far). I'm hoping it'll end up somewhere between QFK2 and the original game on the quality scale (preferably closer to QFK2 ofc), but as long as it plays differently I don't mind.

And just in case you are worried about the execution side and the engine's quirks...there's always DOSBox with savestates. (https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=584684) Not quite as sophisticated as NL, but it does the trick. (and given what happened when I played QFK3, there won't be any ridiculous manoeuvres requiring savestate abuse)

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated, as I'm no expert. If you manage to break a level, please let me know what you did (I'm bound to miss things, esp. given that you guys have played a lot more than me). I don't really know much about glitches either, so there's bound to be a few somewhere.


=========
The Concepts
=========

Each tribe has it's own fixed set of themed skills - like QFK2*, but with many changes. (nearly all tribes have at least 2 differing skills)
The first level of each tribe is exactly the same - but with different skills each time. (some are easy, some are hard)
The last level of each tribe has 10 (!) trapdoors - ensuring an epic finale. (having groups of 6 lemmings will open up a new set of solutions and a different approach to solving)
Each tribe requires the full 60 lemmings to reach the end. Classic requires 50, and level names will end in a number to show the death count.

* it partly feels like I'm ripping off the idea, so I apologise for that. But it is how I would've made the original L2 if it was me. Together with my own concepts and challenges, I'm confident it will play differently to QFK2.

=======
The Tribes
=======

It wouldn't be complete without a sneak preview, so here it is. Click on the spoiler for details.

Highland (click to show/hide)

Circus (click to show/hide)

Classic (click to show/hide)

Medieval (click to show/hide)

Egyptian (click to show/hide)

Outdoor (click to show/hide)

Beach (click to show/hide)

Sports (click to show/hide)

Shadow (click to show/hide)

Cavelem (click to show/hide)

Space (click to show/hide)

Polar (click to show/hide)

=========
How to Install
=========

Back up your current /LEVELS/ folder within Lemmings 2, then extract the contents of the zip into there, overwriting the existing files.

How to run Lemmings 2 in DOSBox (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3273)

If you wish to play with the Amiga music instead, grab them from this thread and play externally. (with the PC music turned off)

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1803.msg44855#msg44855

========
How to Play
========

You have to manually save the game from the main menu, in between levels.

Keyboard shortcuts:

ESC: Quick Restart
F1 - F8: Skills 1-8 (sadly not as usable as L1, particularly on levels not using all 8 skills)
SPACE: Fan (required for several skills)
P: Pause (you can also unpause by pressing Space, if you want the fan ready when you do)
ENTER: Fast Forward (you can also cancel this by pressing Space, if you want the fan ready when you do)

========
Savestates
========

These are highly recommended, as a primitive but still effective player aid. While I've tried to avoid high-precision puzzles (similar to QFK2), the levels are somewhat bigger with more skills (especially the epic finale of each tribe), therefore it will be helpful to use them. There are two options:

If using DOSBox with savestates (https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=584684), you have these controls:

ALT+F5: Save state
ALT+F9: Load state
ALT+F6: Previous slot
ALT+F7: Next slot

(10 save slots in total, with wraparound when selecting)

If using DOSBox-X (https://www.dosbox-x.com), you have these controls:

F11+S: Save state
F11+L: Load state
F11+(comma): Previous slot
F11+(dot): Next slot

(100 save slots in total, more than enough!)

I still recommend saving your game manually too.

===============
Current Version - 13.12
  (download link at the bottom of the post)
===============

All 12 tribes complete.  The final release will come after testing/tweaking, along with a video playthrough.

=====
Credits
(so far)
=====

geoo - for creating both L2Suite (excellent editor/organiser) and PCL2Ed. (which is required occasionally)
GuyPerfect - for creating lgl2. (the main level editor)
kieranmillar - for creating QFK2. (the amazing level pack that inspired me to follow in it's footsteps)

Feedback credits will be added later.

======
Footnote
======

This is a new journey for me (and an unexpected one too), but the ideas are coming thick and fast. I hope to complete it by the time the winter solstice has recently passed, but will probably end up in next year. Either way, only the 3rd full Lemmings 2 game in 30 years will be something to look forward to!
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
Post by: mobius on July 01, 2021, 10:27:00 PM

just want to say this (basically any L2 project) is a huge undertaking so good job so far! I want to play, can't promise that I will but I will try, and I'll be sure to comment!
In any case these levels look nice and well done; I like the same concept of the same layout in all the styles.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 04, 2021, 12:10:18 AM
Well, I've only gone and done it...my first ever L2 tribe. Only 1 skill change from QFK2 but it's made a hell of a difference.

I've tried to make sure they are breakproof, but I'm sure there will still be some...please have a go and let me know if you find any. (I'm aware of one backroute that's still in, but it's harder to pull off than the intended route - see if you can find it!)

See the OP for download. (attachment at the bottom)

====================
Version 2.0 has been released
====================

Highland - tribe is now complete.

Highland 1 (Base Camp) - updated the grassy bit to look better.

(note: only the Highland intro level is in this version, the others will release with their respective tribes)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 05, 2021, 09:59:03 AM
Looks like I missed a couple of things after releasing it...


====================
Version 2.1 has been released
====================

Highland 4 (Lemfidditch Distillery) - reworked the level slightly, added 1 roper. (which I'd removed just before release)
Highland 9 (Sky-High Installation) - reduced mortars to 12. (I'd removed a mortar section just before release, but forgot the skills)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 18, 2021, 11:16:51 AM
I'm enjoying this now. Coming up with ways to use different skills, and I also had two extra "skills" to play with in this tribe...cannons and trampolines. No gimmicks like in the original game, they actually get used in puzzles here. (I even put in extra trapdoors so there are less lemmings needing to use the cannons)

Apologies to the anti-twister folks, but I promise it won't happen again - in fact nearly all destructive skills appear in 2 tribes each, it just so happens that the twister is in the first 2.


====================
Version 3.0 has been released
====================

Circus - tribe is now complete.

Circus 1 (Base Camp) - retextured it to match the colour scheme I used throughout the tribe.

There will be changes coming to the Highland levels in the next release, but I need a short break to take care of RL stuff.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 24, 2021, 07:56:00 PM
Some early private feedback has uncovered a few Highland issues, along with some file copying errors that made certain levels go missing. I'm still not entirely sure on my design philosophy, which seems very different to QFK2's...I'd be interested to hear any thoughts on that and ways to improve it.


====================
Version 3.1 has been released
====================

All Highland levels should be properly available, following various file copying errors.

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - replaced the tricky cloud throw at the start with a bottle of whisky. (what else?)
Highland 4 (Lemfidditch Distillery) - reworked the level a bit, since it was causing trouble. Roper and rock climber removed, throwers down to 10.
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - slight tweak to the middle of the top section, to simplify it.
Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - added water across parts of the level, to stop the crawling glitch. (I'm a noob when it comes to knowing about these)
Highland 7 (Artillery Range) - fixed backroute involving a downward-mortar trick.
Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - removed hanging scenery from the cavern's right-side sloping ceiling, to make the roper/twister bit a little easier to handle.
Highland 9 (Sky-High Installation) - fixed backroute involving a downward-mortar trick and a somewhat clever rescue of the middle trapdoor. Also simplified the top half of the shaft climb, made the top twister section more forgiving and reduced mortars to 10.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on July 28, 2021, 09:01:40 PM
Amazing to see another big Lemmings 2 pack in the works. There's still so much more potential still to explore in Lemmings 2. I'm happy to playtest this and will try to find some time this week to record my first look at every level you make, I should have some time for a quick first look now, after making this post. I feel I should help give feedback on new Lemmings 2 levels and continue to encourage people to join me in making levels for Lemmings 2. The 10-level tribe concept is really fun to develop for, despite the quirks and limitations of building Lemmings 2 levels.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on July 28, 2021, 11:05:20 PM
I am going to record all of my first looks, as I feel this is the best way to give feedback, you get to see my entire process of trying levels and the things I do. Today I only had time to look at the first 3 Circus levels.

Note that I may end up changing my comments as I work through the level, so don't be put off by my initial Twister moaning in Circus 2 and worries of the time limit, in the end it was a tremendously good level.

Not sure if I broke Circus 3.

Sorry for the poor framerate in places. Did not notice it until editing afterwards, not sure what's going on there. I didn't use to have this problem, I'll have to investigate to fix future videos.

https://youtu.be/bFlsC6ACw6E
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 30, 2021, 02:34:47 PM
Thanks for the opening feedback, very much appreciated :)

It's interesting (and kinda weird) to see my levels on YT and watching people try different ways to solve them, before finding a way past that I didn't think of :P (with some of the levels so far)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on July 30, 2021, 06:07:50 PM
Time for the next video:

https://youtu.be/AWe4e2qWvts
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 30, 2021, 09:28:31 PM
Again, I'm impressed with the alternative-route finding with those two...I should probably try to break my own levels before releasing :P
(although my Superlem skills are somewhat below yours, plus I wanted to get this tribe out before RL forced a break)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on August 02, 2021, 05:30:40 PM
The next tribe is coming along nicely, but here's some changes in the meantime:

====================
Version 3.2 has been released
====================


Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - removed a cloud and 2 ropers, moved some bits around.
Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - removed the hole and Superlem, doubled the laser blasters.
Circus 4 (Red vs. Blue) - added 1 min, replaced the Superlems with balloons and made the twister sections more forgiving.
Circus 5 (The Weighting Room) - added 2 mins.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on August 03, 2021, 09:00:55 PM
Next video, covering only one level, Circus 6:

https://youtu.be/ytFwKPvNM2c
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on August 05, 2021, 08:31:59 PM
More playtesting:
https://youtu.be/tTE10ZRLkeM
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on August 06, 2021, 05:29:30 PM
Really liking these videos, it's interesting to see all the different ways to solve each level.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

At this point it's worth noting that the intended route for each level will never include incredibly precise moves (notably with twisters) that are very hard to pull off - if it seems a bit OTT it's probably the wrong method. I will ofc be impressed with successful alternative routes of this nature, but there will be an easier way.

Hopefully I'll have the next tribe ready over the weekend, but here's a new version in the meantime:

====================
Version 3.3 has been released
====================


Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - removed another cloud and 1 roper, rearranged things at the start a little.
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - replaced the chain swingers (masquerading as platforms) with actual platforms.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - added some metal blocks to the shaft, preventing possible twister backroutes. (as well as helping with the puzzle)
Circus 6 (Across the Abyss) - retextured it to look nicer, removed 2 attractors (they weren't really needed), replaced the chain swingers (masquerading as platforms) with actual platforms.
Circus 7 (Breakout) - lowered the blue & yellow trapdoors (to less than ow distance), increased twisters to 10. (matching the other heavy twister levels)
Circus 8 (Roadblock) - reworked the final puzzle a bit, removed 1 platformer, added 1 club basher.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - made the bottom Superlem manoeuvre more forgiving, simplified the carriage trapdoor puzzle, removed 3 platformers, added 5 jumpers.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (2 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on August 12, 2021, 09:00:35 PM
Bit later than originally planned (RL etc.) but I'm now a quarter of the way there. I wasn't sure how I'd fare at Lemmings 1 levels, but I think I've done alright - the hardest base camp, some bitesize puzzles, a traditional time trial, a few nods to the original L1 and the odd sprawler. (I can't see them posing any real challenge here though, given the sheer number of L1 level packs over the years)

There is also now a titlepic. (bit crappy, but yay it's something)

====================
Version 4.0 has been released
====================


Classic - tribe is now complete.

Classic 1 (Base Camp) - lowered the water, to L1 height.
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - removed 1 club basher, after finding a massive flaw in the puzzle.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reworked the metal around the blue trapdoors, to make the twister section more forgiving.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on August 12, 2021, 09:12:32 PM
Oh hey nice, good job getting another tribe out. I had just finished recording and uploading my next video on 3.3.

https://youtu.be/QetLeTb9cW4
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on August 14, 2021, 11:20:55 AM
Very nice so far, things will get trickier though. (I was convinced I'd never be able to create puzzles as hard as yours, but 3 tribes in I'm not so sure now)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

A quick update, after noticing a couple of errors (one of them major).

====================
Version 4.1 has been released
====================


Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - added a wall in front of the exit, removed 1 mortar and the base of each pillar. (to fix a somewhat clever backroute)
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - removed a graphical error and slightly extended the ledge over the blue house. (for easier roping)
Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - removed an erroneous pillar that would cause a backroute. (a failed attempt to add scenery above the exit)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on August 18, 2021, 09:24:58 PM
Latest playtesting video:
https://youtu.be/gmFnEV1SlGk
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on August 19, 2021, 07:03:14 PM
Looks like another update is needed, but that's what playtesting is for. (I appreciate it)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

====================
Version 4.2 has been released
====================


Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - added some more water (to stop crawlers), improved the left trapdoor cave. (to make it easier to control and escape from). Also added 1 min and 1 roper.
Classic 1 (Base Camp) - extended the highest part of land before the big wall. (to allow an easier method to be used)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on August 23, 2021, 07:30:51 PM
More playtesting:

https://youtu.be/79-0NA-Kqbk
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on August 31, 2021, 07:19:01 PM
Normally I'd reply sooner, but I've been busy...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...getting the next tribe done. I had fun with this one, particularly with the skill combos and trying to work catapults into puzzles (fairly easy after doing Circus though). I did want to move the roller to another tribe (namely Sports or Circus) but there was no room in either, plus it combo'd beautifully with some of the other skills...so I rolled with it. (heh)

====================
Version 5.0 has been released
====================


Medieval - tribe is now complete.

Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - replaced the swinging chain with a pair of giant arrows, to indicate whether the wedge staircases go up or down. Also filled in the space I didn't use with a bit of scenery.
Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - replaced the diamond in the top right corner with the aforementioned swinging chain scenery. (he's drunk)
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - reworked the bottom section to have less gaps and removed 2 ropers. (that should kill the top route)
Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - reworked the top section slightly (to add more room on the way back down), added 1 hopper and 1 thrower.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - made the trapdoor directly above the exit safe, added 1 roper and removed 1 attractor. (I decided that only 1-2 trapdoors should be unsafe at the start of these epic 10-trapdoor levels)
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - added 1 laser blaster, in case lemmings get stuck in the wagon wheels.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (4 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on September 06, 2021, 10:29:50 AM
Another video:
https://youtu.be/KL-BGqsIzoM
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (4 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on September 11, 2021, 10:36:00 PM
Congrats on finishing a tribe! How would you rate the difficulty compared to QFK2? (hard to tell atm)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, no intermediate update for this version...as I move straight on to the next one. This tribe was interesting, despite having the same core concept (pots) it turned out completely different due to the skill changes and the way I used them. (notably using carpets to go up all the time instead of down)

====================
Version 6.0 has been released
====================


Egyptian - tribe is now complete.

Circus 8 (Roadblock) - increased the height of the blue+yellow column, added another club basher.
Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - speeded up the release rate (to stop a possible 2-death solution), removed 2 mins. (it's not as long as I thought)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - removed the wooden block next to the catapult. (manual containment is needed there anyway)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: geoo on September 13, 2021, 09:24:00 PM
I played through the Highland tribe, the first video is from v4.2, so I replayed level 5 again with the changes from v5.0.
The videos are quite long, I could probably cut the time in half if I used savestates (or had been less adamant to conserve skills)...

https://youtu.be/7dPzEN_Z29k
https://youtu.be/riFHf1lFS-s

Not sure when I'll have time to go through the next tribe, or maybe we'll schedule a race with Simon, but I wanted to get this out at least.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on September 15, 2021, 11:58:34 PM
Thanks for the videos, it's great to have you on board. My thoughts on it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this also means that unlike the previous major version, this one didn't have to wait long for an intermediate update:

====================
Version 6.1 has been released
====================


Highland 8 (Loch Lemond Storage Tank) - added 1 min.
Highland 9 (Sky-High Installation) - removed the block in the middle and moved the trapdoor down a bit (to prevent anyone escaping). Also added some red blocks to make the top twister section a bit less risky on the fall.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - raised the height of the red building (to prevent the easy mortar escape), removed the metal from the tall shafts (no longer needed). Also moved the trapdoors around so the one just above the water is now first.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reworked the rightmost yellow trapdoor (so it no longer requires a bridge), added 5 jumpers.
Classic 10 (Random Lemming Pun) - reworked the terrain under the centre trapdoor. (to make controlling it a lot easier, and to avoid a potentially misleading path at the start)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - added more room to the trapdoor by the lake.


Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: geoo on September 18, 2021, 04:24:38 PM
I managed to squeeze in another session before I'm out for a month, this time with savestates. :)

I revisited Highland 9 and 10, and then went through the Circus tribe. Circus still seems to have a whole lot of backroutes, but those levels that don't had some nice puzzles to offer.

Highland 9-10 (https://youtu.be/OjUfwKdpjuA)
Circus 1-4 (https://youtu.be/F_-1VvXTT34) (and having a look at Circus 5)
Circus 5-10 (https://youtu.be/XABqUqjo-4s)

In an earlier post you asked about how the difficulty compares to QFK2. I think your levels are a bit more open-ended, with larger skill sets than QFK2, which to me makes them feel a bit easier to figure out but also a bit tricker to execute (as there's more stuff to be done), though the extra skills often alleviate the execution woes a bit. QFK most of the time had fewer skill placements (pretty much just those essential to the main puzzle), and whenever possible the terrain was shaped to make these easy to execute.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on September 22, 2021, 10:24:32 PM
Nicely done. Next tribe is going quite slowly, so plenty of time to catch up a bit.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyway, here's another update for those pesky clowns:

====================
Version 6.2 has been released
====================


Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - added metal to fix a backroute.
Circus 5 (The Weighting Room) - added 1 min.
Circus 8 (Roadblock) - straightened up the roadblock itself (metal), to fix a backroute.
Circus 9 (RGB Nightclub) - added metal above the blue trapdoor, to fix a backroute.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on September 30, 2021, 07:18:35 PM
And so we reach the halfway point...and not for the first time I have my doubts about the way it's progressing. I know my levels are somewhat bigger than QFK2's with more to do in each one, and that's kinda how I like them...but I also get the impression that sort of design isn't popular. My design philosophy is also different, favouring strong (often unusual) themes (along with the odd gimmick) and designing around those (unless I have a strong puzzle idea).

What do people think - should they be smaller? Fewer skills? Terrain favouring execution rather than theme? Or is it better to be a stark contrast to QFK2 but with more bits that could go wrong?

(sorry for rambling on, it's what goes on in a level designer's head sometimes. Doesn't help that the twister was in the first 2 tribes though...leading to a bad first impression on the execution side)

Anyway, onto the release...this tribe took a bit longer than the others (partly due to RL) but it had some cool bits and another really good aerial combo. The accidental discovery of a new feature late on didn't help matters (cue the rush to incorporate it into a few levels), but it's finally done:

====================
Version 7.0 has been released
====================

Outdoor - tribe is now complete.

Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - added 1 stacker. (I realised there wasn't enough redundancy built in)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on October 11, 2021, 06:35:50 PM
It's been a surprisingly sunny autumn so far, which goes nicely with the next tribe.  Having the platformer again* made for some nice combos, and I like making useless skills useful. Also did some interesting feats of architecture, given the odd terrain shapes and lack of 45° slopes (thankfully the sculpting was nowhere near as annoying as Outdoor, as the tiles align much better...though I'm not looking forward to sculpting Cavelem)

* apologies builder fans, but I'm just finding the platformer more useful overall atm. Once I'm done with the next tribe though, the builders will come out in force.

====================
Version 8.0 has been released
====================

Beach - tribe is now complete.

Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - altered the height of 2 buildings, removed 1 twister, added 2 mortars. (twist-through-the-ceiling was my first QFK2 backroute, but I can't seem to force it here...instead the 2nd twister was used for backroutes)
Circus 5-6 - swapped places.
Circus 7-9 - moved 9 forward two places, pushing 7 & 8 back one.


Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on October 30, 2021, 11:47:28 PM
Just in time for Halloween, the scariest tribe arrives (at least in vanilla it is). I really enjoyed playing with this skill set, there's a lot can be done with it (except for the pole vault ofc, which can do precisely 2 things). Throw in some steam*, trampolines and one of my best level ideas and you have this:

* We all have nightmares of that silly opening level from vanilla, but nothing like that here. Instead, they are puzzles, obstacles or a means to gain height.

====================
Version 9.0 has been released
====================

Sports - tribe is now complete.

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - moved the diamond down so it can be roped into. (it should've been moved earlier)
Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - slightly lengthened the start area, +2 miners, -1 platformer, -1 stacker.
Beach 3 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - removed a test trapdoor that was preventing the level from being completed. (doh)

In addition, I've gone through all of the tribes and altered the release rates...as most levels were left at the default value.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: kieranmillar on November 04, 2021, 12:01:36 AM
And so we reach the halfway point...and not for the first time I have my doubts about the way it's progressing. I know my levels are somewhat bigger than QFK2's with more to do in each one, and that's kinda how I like them...but I also get the impression that sort of design isn't popular. My design philosophy is also different, favouring strong (often unusual) themes (along with the odd gimmick) and designing around those (unless I have a strong puzzle idea).

What do people think - should they be smaller? Fewer skills? Terrain favouring execution rather than theme? Or is it better to be a stark contrast to QFK2 but with more bits that could go wrong?

(sorry for rambling on, it's what goes on in a level designer's head sometimes. Doesn't help that the twister was in the first 2 tribes though...leading to a bad first impression on the execution side)
Apologies for vanishing suddenly and being away for a while. That just happens with me. I still plan to play through this all.

I don't think you should worry about whether or not this is similar to QFK2. I'm not a good judge regardless, but I always was worried that QFK2 was too focused on difficult puzzles where people would just get stuck a lot until they figure out the "trick", a level style that actually only crops up rarely in official Lemmings games. I feel there's definitely an audience for levels more your style, I enjoy them at least. What I've played so far is very good, don't be put off by my griping about the Twister, that's just the Twister being the Twister.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (5 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on November 16, 2021, 12:29:10 AM
Three quarters down, one to go.  This was definitely my favourite tribe for the actual level design, as I love it's night-time city setting. Bit of an odd skill set (explosions aren't the easiest way to tunnel) and perhaps not enough use of "the combo", but that does mean I used all aspects of the tribe a bit more. (and I'm particularly pleased with some of the filler tricks)

====================
Version 10.0 has been released
====================

Shadow- tribe is now complete.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (10 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on November 25, 2021, 12:28:13 AM
Well, that was quick. I thought this tribe would take longer due to the awkward nature of the terrain, but it actually fitted together quite nicely (the tiling woes that I faced in Outdoor never really materialised here). The skillset isn't bad either - wings are ok when you get used to it (better than the other flying skills IMO), spears turned out more useful than I thought (despite not being able to chain them), and stacks are always handy.

====================
Version 11.0 has been released
====================

Cavelem - tribe is now complete.

Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - removed the immediate danger from the leftmost trapdoor. Also swapped them around so the one by the lake goes first. (these should allow you to get cracking on the exit section immediately)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (10 tribes complete)
Post by: geoo on November 29, 2021, 11:23:38 PM
I went through Medieval, Classic and Egypt.

Videos are here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJNO01n86P6LXjn6NNxy1EYVWc9LtCYFu

I was positively surprised by Classic (I generally don't care for L2 classic), and Egypt is my favourite tribe so far.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (3 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on December 03, 2021, 12:36:01 AM
Great to hear from you again, and some great feedback too - many fixes to make:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've currently got around a third of Space to go, so here's a interim update with all the fixes:

====================
Version 11.1 has been released
====================


Highland 1 (Base Camp) - re-set the correct size, so it isn't a garbled mess. (ouch)
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - added 1 twister and removed 2 mortars, reverting the previous change. (alternative solutions will always be a part of these epic finales, and I was impressed with the one in the video)
Classic 6 (Chambers of Aquatia) - removed 1 builder and 1 digger.
Classic 7 (Stepping Up and Down) - extended a block to shorten the area just above the exit.
Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - added a block between the fire jets in the exit area.
Classic 9 (Split at the Hill) - added metal to the left block, moved metal up the right block, removed 5 builders.
Classic 10 (Random Lemming Pun) - removed 5 floaters and 2 miners, reverted the previous change to the middle trapdoor.
Medieval 2 (Finishing the Arc) - removed the small hill, added metal to the starting ledges.
Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - removed the mess from the last update (ugh), slightly altered the exit area, reduced stackers to 2 and miners to 1.
Medieval 4 (Hack & Slash) - added metal to the starting areas.
Medieval 6 (Dungeon & Dragon) - moved the forgotten trapdoor to the grass area just outside the dungeon.
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - extended the middle trapdoor tunnel area, moved the catapult back.
Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - added metal to the base of the start pillars.
Egyptian 3 (Tomb of Ikea) - shortened the ceiling table.
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - reworked the gap between trapdoor and exit. (so it can't be cheesed)
Egyptian 9 (The Plunger's Tomb) - removed all sand pourers (so it can't be cheesed), slightly reworked some areas to compensate.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (10 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on December 06, 2021, 10:57:06 PM
And the missing third is done. This was always one of my favourite tribes, but the original game didn't really do it justice IMO. QFK2 righted that, and here's my attempt at doing the same.  Space glue was awesome...I know the builder combo is OP but it gave me a lot of ideas and it led to some great combos with other skills. Jetpacks are a bit awkward but I found them to be quite useful for little things as well as the odd bigger thing. (always with plenty of room and spares like with other hard-to-execute skills)

Anyhow, one more tribe to go and quite a fitting one for the time of year. (we even had snow last week)

====================
Version 12.0 has been released
====================

Space - tribe is now complete.

Egyptian 6 (Wade in the Water) - shortened the containment area for the right-side trapdoor. (it's not as deep now, which fixes a backroute). I also forgot to include this one in the last update. (doh)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (11 tribes complete)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on December 22, 2021, 12:50:49 AM
The winter solstice has recently passed, and as originally planned/hoped for, I have managed to complete the final tribe!
Like the previous two tribes, it came together really well with some neat skill combos and puzzles (despite losing a cool skier trick on the final level due to it causing weird graphical bugs and random crashes). Possibly not as hard as many of the other tribes, but I'm really happy with how it's turned out.

This won't be the final release, as they're bound to be full of backroutes and testing/feedback would be very welcome in order to get rid of them. I'm also planning a full video playthrough when the final release is ready.

====================
Version 13.0 has been released
====================

Polar - tribe is now complete.

All levels that weren't using their full size are now doing so, with extra scenery (L1-style).*

Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - replaced the newly-added block with metal. (just to ensure it can't be glitched)
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - reworked the middle trapdoor again, removed a few skills and 1 min.
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassable) - lengthened the thin shaft that the rock climber uses to reach the sewers.
Space 7 (JMC Mining Complex) - closed the mine shaft, added a few skills. (I realised that one bit of the puzzle could be bypassed, and I like this new solution better)

* Dunno how it got like this, it just kinda happened as I went along. As there was only a handful of early levels that were not using all the available room, I decided to bring those into line. I also like detailing stuff. None of the actual play areas are changed, and it's a nod to the original L1 too.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on December 23, 2021, 07:57:45 PM
Congratulations on making it all the way to an entire 120 level pack. A huge achievement!
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on January 04, 2022, 11:37:27 PM
I've mostly been doing other stuff since the release, but I have had a look back at various levels that I wasn't entirely happy with (mainly in the tribes that haven't been playtested by others yet) and made some changes....also discovering a few bugs along the way.  So here's a new version with various improvements:

====================
Version 13.1 has been released
====================


Space 4 (Defying Gravity) and Space 5 (Orbital Bombardment) have swapped places.

Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - made some small changes around the middle of the level, to try and improve the flow a bit. Also added 2 builders and 2 platformers for flexibility. (using up every skill isn't a priority in this one)
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - re-added the 3rd trapdoor (there was originally 4 before release) to stop a backroute.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - made the bottom left trapdoor safe, removed 1 roper. (wasn't needed and could ruin 1 puzzle)
Beach 9 (Beach Hut BBQ) - reworked the main puzzle in order to save it, also removing 10 sand pourers. The new version is much quicker to complete, so the time limit has been reduced. (it was way too high anyway)
Sports 6 (Dynamic Duo) - fixed the release rate to what it should be. (how this happened I have no clue. On one of the best levels too)
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - moved the chain swingers to another level, as it was causing sprites to disappear. Also reworked the puzzle slightly, in order to remove dependence on an obscure trick that is discovered in the previous level.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - added a block to the right-side of the water, for the same reason as above.
Shadow 3 (Air Raid) - lowered the tower block slightly and reworked the underground section a bit, in order to save the final puzzle. (by making the builder+roper use consistent)
Shadow 4 (Filling Station) - reworked the main puzzle in order to save it. Removed all the bombers, plus 4 bazookas and 2 rock climbers.
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - improved the upward section a little, speeded up the release rate greatly.
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - removed the water and 6 fillers.
Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - extended the water trough, added metal down to the 2-igloo platform. (backroute fix)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on February 10, 2022, 11:44:46 PM
Another fixing/tweaking pass, mostly focusing on tribes that I hadn't really gone over in the absence of playtest reports (these are really important for finding backroutes that I haven't found), and one tribe that needed a bit of work in general:

====================
Version 13.2 has been released
====================

Medieval 2 (Finishing the Arc) and Medieval 3 (Acrobatic Outlaw) have swapped places with Medieval 4 (Hack & Slash) and Medieval 5 (Cave of Knaves).

Circus 5 (Across the Abyss) - removed the attractor and 1 min. (there is another way to stop the cannon for a while, one that doesn't clump the lemmings up and harm one of the solutions). Also added another trampoline, to make retrieving the platformer lemming easier.
Medieval 5 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - added 1 roller and dragons to the top section. (after finding yet another roller trick while fixing a different level)
Medieval 6 (Dungeon & Dragon) - moved the left trapdoor onto the sloping ledge, added 1 archer (slight improvements).
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) -  filled in 2 gaps, altered the amount of several skills. (this prevents the builder puzzle at the top from being backrouted, along with streamlining the rest of the level)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - removed 4 platformers (after realising you could easily backroute it), added 1 miner/stacker, made some improvements to the far-right area.
Egyptian 6 (Wade in the Water) - removed 1 small pool, and extended 1 medium pool.
Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - shortened the wooden ledge sequence, to tighten up the race a bit.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - removed 1 ledge, extended the vine ladder and tweaked the final bit, to streamline it a little.
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - reworked the right-side trapdoor, to accommodate the roper puzzle from the next level.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - moved the roper puzzle to the previous level. (it's a bit cruel to spring it on you right at the end)
Beach 7 (Sandy Cove) - made the ceiling flat, in order to prevent a possible backroute. Also fixed a bug in the skill set that made the level impossible...it now correctly has divers instead of floaters. (I hate the way that L2 screws up the skill display on the level intro screen if any 0-skill boxes are present, forcing me to rearrange them on the editor when a level is finished...which is what caused this bug)
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) - removed all the upper ledges from the middle section of the cave, to prevent possible backroutes.
Cavelem 9 (Devolution of Lemmings) - reworked the bottom slightly, removed 2 builders. (to firmly remove any chance of backrouting it, but still with a spare to cover a particular gap that's tricky to do in 1)

I've also added a copy of my savegame file (save.dat) to the zip, so that levels can be skipped if you get stuck. It also ensures that Classic will have the right number of lemmings on each level.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on March 06, 2022, 12:07:33 AM
Another update, this time focusing on the 10-trapdoor levels that end each tribe. These are meant to be an epic finale that fits my design philosophy (which favours innovative ideas/concepts) along with a review of what you've learned from the tribe. I really want these levels to work, as it's such an unusual concept that really changes things up. I've shifted some of the new tricks/puzzles into other levels wherever I could, along with making some improvements for reliability and execution. (as the logistical challenge is great enough with these levels)

====================
Version 13.3 has been released
====================

Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - added metal to the thin shaft (to prevent twistering all the way down) and 2 mortars for flexibility.
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - added metal to one trapdoor, and 3 ballooners to cover any mishaps at the bottom. (I really wanted to add more twisters, but doing so would break the yellow trapdoors)
Classic 4 (Bridging the Gap) - added 1 builder and 2 diggers, to cover all possible mishaps with the climber.
Classic 5 (Old Ways, New Tiles) - reworked the right-side trapdoor area and added 3 climbers, to allow more reliable ways of releasing the blocker.
Classic 7 (Stepping Up and Down) - added 2 builders and 1 climber to increase the margin of error. (also small blocks to prevent the new backroute)
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - compressed the top section a little. (not that it really changes much apart from looks)
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - reworked the top to accommodate the puzzle from L10.
Egyptian 10 (Mandatory Pyramid Level) - moved the puzzle in the bottom-right corner to L8 and simplified the area. Removed 2 stompers.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - cosmetic changes to the exit area, which also helps the roper.
Beach 10 (Artificial Resort) - reworked the skillset a little, to hopefully offer more pointers.
Sports 4 (A Mountain to Climb) - moved back 2 places to L6.
Sports 5 (Hold the Line) - moved forward 1 place to L4.
Sports 6 (Dynamic Duo) - moved forward 1 place to L5.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - added the puzzle from L10, replaced the large red ball with a small white ball (to make the first arrows easier to place), also added skills to ensure that the end tunnel can be done reliably.
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - replaced the puzzle in the top-left corner with a different one (moving it to L7), tweaked some parts of the level to make things a little more reliable.
Shadow 2 (Urban Gymnastics) - slight tweak to one of the climbing sections. (in case you don't know about shimmying directly onto an upward 45° slope)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - altered the amount of construction skills, to focus more on ropers with the builders as support.
Cavelem 10 (Dinosaur Islands) - tweaked the bottom section, which also enables the double-dino-flick to the exit area. It should now be much clearer where to build, as well as consistent enough to avoid a spare builder breaking the exit puzzle. Skills altered as a result, notably 5 less builders are required now.
Space 9 (Space Glue Factory) - added some metal blocks to the underside of the top section, to make the fiddly part easier.
Space 10 (The Colonies of Desyat) - tweaked the long underground cave and enlarged the metal box above it, to make things easier.
Polar 10 (Escape from Hawker Island) - slight tweaks to the mini-caves under the ice patch, to make it a touch easier.

I've also updated the savegame file (save.dat) so it has the correct data now.

In case you're wondering about Classic 10, it didn't need any changes. Thanks to geoo's video, the solution was altered last time round and I think it's spot-on now.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on April 11, 2022, 08:53:31 PM
Another major update - focusing on everything else, notably levels that I hadn't visited since they were made:

====================
Version 13.4 has been released
====================

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - moved the golf course up a notch, to prevent roper spam from reaching it.
Highland 5 (Lembank Docks) - +1 thrower, -2 mortars.
Highland 7 (Artillery Range) - lowered the height of the first water pit and increased the size of the gap beyond it. (for easier execution)
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - -1 roper.
Circus 2 (Devil vs. Strongman) - moved the exit back down to where it should be.
Circus 4 (Red vs. Blue) - lowered some sections to make the jumps easier.
Circus 9 (Roadblock) - slight tweak to the first 2 puzzle areas, reduced the height of the blue/yellow block in the 3rd.
Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - shortened the metal block above the exit. (to shave a couple of seconds off the time needed)
Classic 6 (Chambers of Aquatia) - tweaked the exit to re-enable the bottom route, +1 basher, improved the release rate.
Medieval 2 (Hack & Slash) - made the middle trapdoor safe, added a bunch of skills and 1 min.
Medieval 3 (Cave of Knaves) - reworked the right-side trapdoors for easier execution, added a bunch of skills and 1 min.
Medieval 4 (Finishing the Arc) - reworked the far end to make the main puzzle a bit cleaner, -2 platformers, +2 archers.
Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - moved one section down slightly, improved the release rate.
Egyptian 3 (Tomb of Ikea) - removed the shimmiers and 3 carpets (they were leftovers from when the level was more complex), improved the release rate.
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - improved the release rate.
Outdoor 5 (Treetop Village) - slight tweak to first trapdoor, +1 roper.
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - extended the lower ledge on both sides, +1 kayaker.
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - +1 platformer, +1 bomber.
Beach 2 (The Sand Pit) - added metal to the holding area (backroute fix), lowered the exit, -3 divers, -3 floaters.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - fixed an ugly cloud. (who wants ugly clouds)
Beach 8 (Dune Climbing Contest) - added a bunch of skills for easier execution, and 2 mins.
Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - removed the pole vaulters. (not needed)
Sports 3 (Letting Off Steam) - reworked the start area slightly, +5 shimmiers, +1 platformer, -1 fencer.
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - removed the need for the 2nd arrow bridge, -5 archers.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - reworked the bottom trapdoor area to fix a backroute, -1 fencer, +1 miner, +1 min.
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - +2 mins.
Shadow 3 (Air Raid) - moved the filler puzzle to L5, slight tweak to skill count.
Shadow 4 (Filling Station) - tweaked one section to prevent the possibility of saving a builder.
Shadow 5 (Water Works) - major rework of the middle+right sections to fix a backroute and add the filler puzzle from L3.
Shadow 7 (Sewers Smell Bad) - +1 roper, -5 builders, +1 bazooka. (gives a choice of methods while making it slightly less of a slog)
Shadow 8 (Production Line) - +1 roper, +2 bombers. (in case something goes wrong)
Cavelem 4 (Ruined Temple) -  moved the 2nd dino and the ledges slightly (for reliability), +2 stackers.
Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) -  removed the ledge under the carcass to fix a backroute.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) -  reworked the trapdoor and dino areas a little, +5 stompers.
Cavelem 8 (Up in the Jungle) -  improved the right-side trapdoors, added some skills.
Space 4 (Orbital Bombardment) - removed the middle block on both outer ships. Also removed the mortars and added a bunch of bazookas+jetpacks to make it a full bombardment now.
Polar 2 (Piste Off) - reworked the bottom section to make this the no-roper level in the tribe. (see L9 changes)
Polar 4 (It's All Downhill!) - lowered the cavern above the exit, shortened the topmost dig, -1 roper, -1 stacker.
Polar 6 (Ice Box Challenge) - lowered the topmost trapdoor, -1 min.
Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - slight rework of the side caves, -1 climber, +1 flamethrower, +1 min.
Polar 9 (Avalanche Rescue Team) - added a new puzzle by extending the top right cavern to the edge, +1 roper, +5 flamethrowers, -1 scooper.

As for the final release, it'll probably have to be after L2Player - while savestate DOSBox is fine for this pack, I get the feeling that the bigger level sizes have put people off (due to more moving parts), and as a result L2Player's framestepping should make it appeal more. In some ways it kinda feels like the L2 equivalent of advanced NL packs, where the player aids are pretty much required. (despite me avoiding really high-execution moments and pixel-precision puzzles)

Quote from: kieranmillar
I always was worried that QFK2 was too focused on difficult puzzles where people would just get stuck a lot until they figure out the "trick", a level style that actually only crops up rarely in official Lemmings games.

The main reason for that is because there are so many skills and tricks that can be done (either on their own or with a combo) - whereas with L1 it's mainly the glitches/exploits or advanced tricks that only cropped up in the age of internet video sharing.

I've done exactly the same regarding tricks/puzzles (esp. with the different skill combos compared to QFK2), and thinking up those sort of puzzles was the thing I enjoyed most about making this pack.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on May 08, 2022, 09:45:41 PM
What started out as a couple of fixes turned into another major update - this time going over everything. I'm hoping that most or all of the backroutes are gone*, so I've mainly been focusing on improving the execution side. (adding skills, fixing terrain etc.)

* I don't mind alternative routes, as long as there's no shortcuts or breaking/bypassing major puzzles. So those are still in, especially in L1/L10 which are like that by nature.

====================
Version 13.5 has been released
====================

Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - the bottle of whisky has fallen off the cloud and into the water. Added 2 throwers.
Highland 7 (Artillery Range) - +3 mortars. (in case something goes wrong)
Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - moved the exit and surrounding ledges down a touch. (to make the ballooning easier)
Circus 4 (Red vs. Blue) - reworked most of the bottom section, reduced platformers to 6, increased jumpers to 30 and renamed it to "Don't Capture the Flag". (not sure if this fixes the backroute but it's harder to get if it doesn't)
Classic 6 (Chambers of Aquatia) - +1 basher. (to give greater control over the main puzzle)
Classic 8 (Tricks & Traps) - swapped the order of the middle & right trapdoors.
Medieval 2 (Hack & Slash) - swapped with L3.
Medieval 3 (Cave of Knaves) - swapped with L2.
Medieval 4 (Finishing the Arc) - fixed a bug that was cutting off the very top of the level.
Medieval 6 (Dungeon & Dragon) - swapped with L7.
Medieval 7 (White Cliffs of Dunder) - swapped with L6.
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) - tweaked a couple of the staircases, +2 fencers. (in case something goes wrong)
Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - +1 basher. (in case something goes wrong at the end)
Egyptian 3 (Tomb of Ikea) - moved to L6. Also added/changed a few skills to account for different outcomes of the main puzzle.
Egyptian 4 (Night Boat to Duat) - moved to L3. Also removed a filler and a glue pourer.
Egyptian 6 (Wade in the Water) - moved to L4.
Egyptian 7 (Sidestepping Evolution) - moved some of the "bumps" around to make navigation easier.
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - removed 3 carpets and also the need for 1 carpet (to prevent one section from being cheesed). Added 3 shimmiers.
Egyptian 9 (The Plunger's Tomb) - +1 filler, -2 glue pourers, extended the lowest platform a little bit. (due to the weird behaviour in this area)
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - +1 bomber. (I found this improves the reliability of roping where there's loose pixels around)
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - -2 ballooners, +1 planter.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - +2 parachuters. (in case they're needed)
Beach 3 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - swapped with L4. Also added a pile of sand at the foot of the cliff. (to make the scooper more reliable)
Beach 4 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - swapped with L3.
Beach 5 (W is for...) - removed the cloud near the trapdoor. (bad)
Beach 7 (Sandy Cove) - moved to L8.
Beach 8 (Dune Climbing Contest) - moved to L9.
Beach 9 (Beach Hut BBQ) - moved to L7.
Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - reworked some areas (notably around the trapdoor), +2 runners, +5 shimmiers, -2 fencers.
Sports 3 (Letting Off Steam) - replaced the tennis rackets with a snooker table. (it was thematic to see them jumping off the rackets, but harder to execute)
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - -1 miner. (not needed)
Shadow 2 (Urban Gymastics) - -2 fillers. (not needed)
Shadow 3 (Air Raid) - reworked the left side, as it was possible to cheese the falling puzzle. Solution altered as a result and the skills have been changed accordingly. Also swapped with L4 due to increased difficulty.
Shadow 4 (Filling Station) - swapped with L3.
Shadow 8 (Production Line) - reworked the very bottom (to look more like a sewer under the factory), extended the ledges a touch, -3 bombers, +5 bazookas, -1 roper. (it broke the main puzzle, so the bazooka now covers any issues)
Shadow 9 (Mission Impassible) - -5 bazookas, +5 bombers. (this is now the no-bazooka level, due to the L8 changes)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - -2 builders. (not that it matters hugely in a rope-centric level)
Cavelem 2 (Land vs. Sea vs. Air) - +1 stomper. (in case anything goes wrong)
Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) -  +2 club bashers, +1 min. (in case anything goes wrong)
Cavelem 6 (Last Rule of Bash Club) - +1 min.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) -  +2 builders. (in case anything goes wrong)
Cavelem 10 (Dinosaur Islands) - raised the first dino island up a notch (to make one bit less tight), +1 builder as a result.
Space 3 (Magno Force) - changed the blocks around the pit. (to ensure the best solution)
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - +3 mortars. (in case something goes wrong)
Polar 2 (Piste Off) - slight scenery change on the far right. (to make it look more dangerous)
Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - swapped the topmost igloo+bear head, +2 skiers, +2 flamethrowers. (to prevent an unreliable alternative for containment)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - +1 flamethrower. (it may be needed sometimes)
Polar 10 (Escape from Hawker Island) - raised the tree by the exit slightly. (to make that final section easier)

Hopefully this will be the last big update before the final release, but I'm probably going to wait and see how L2Player develops, and ensure compatibility etc. before signing it off. (if anyone else tries to or has tried to break these levels in the meantime it would be handy to know the outcome)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on June 03, 2022, 10:26:58 PM
Well it's been 9 months but I finally got around to playing this again and recording another video. Hopefully it won't be another 9 months until the next one.

https://youtu.be/UD2lO-xJy3M
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on June 06, 2022, 10:53:05 PM
Great to hear from you again:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The more I think about it though, the more I think I've actually made this harder than QFK2 - and that's just on the puzzles. (not counting the larger level sizes and skill counts)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on June 08, 2022, 09:47:53 PM
Here's part 10. I didn't look at your comments before recording this, in fact I've only just seen them.

https://youtu.be/mvgAA9m7KdY

This pack continues to be excellent and a lot of fun. Is it harder than QFK2? I have no idea, I am a poor judge of the difficulty of my own levels, but for sure this pack is quite tough. But I think it's a good difficulty level so far.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on June 11, 2022, 08:49:52 PM
Part 11 https://youtu.be/ez-YM5-var0
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on June 12, 2022, 03:32:18 PM
Nice vids of Shadow so far.  It was one of my favourite tribes to make, due to the setting and the skillset. (the bomber being a lot more flexible than I originally thought, which compensates for having just explosions to tunnel with)

Anyway, onto some notes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this leads onto a new build - please use this one, as it contains fixes to the remaining Shadow levels. (which you are about to play)

====================
Version 13.6 has been released
====================


Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - reworked some areas (notably around the trapdoor), changed some skill amounts.
Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - reworked the start area to remove the chance of breaking the main concept.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - reworked the first area, changed some skill amounts.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - reworked the bottom left corner and added some skills, altered the release rate. (it was still possible to break the main concept)
Shadow 2 (Urban Gymnastics) - moved the postbox to the right, removed a brick near the weird pit, +1 filler.
Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - removed a few bricks from under the 2nd trap tunnel. (backroute fix)
Shadow 4 (Air Raid) - extended the metal dividers between the underground trapdoors. (backroute fix)
Shadow 5 (Water Works) - added a long metal strip between the two trapdoor areas. (backroute fix)
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - partly reworked the area around the thin shaft and traps. (backroute fix)
Shadow 8 (Production Line) - added 2 exits, removed some scenery and all the bazookas, +3 bombers. (it was still possible to break the main puzzle)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassible) - restored the bazookas, there are now 12 of each explosion.
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - carved out a niche in the central shaft, to ensure that no rock climbers can escape. Also +5 bombers, as it was a little too tight.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: geoo on June 14, 2022, 09:16:31 PM
I played Outdoor and Beach (except for Beach 1, because for some reason there was a different level there): https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJNO01n86P6LXjn6NNxy1EYVWc9LtCYFu
A lot of backroutes again, I think.

As for comparing to QFK2, I think the execution is harder here, but finding the solutions is a bit easier because the levels tend to be a bit more open-ended. Then again, I'm mostly finding backroutes so far, so maybe once they are fixed, it'll be a bit harder.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: geoo on June 17, 2022, 07:42:22 PM
Also played through the Sports tribe now, that was definitely one of my favourites so far.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on June 17, 2022, 10:02:47 PM
Really appreciate this guys, thanks a lot. :)

I was about to do another update with Outdoor/Beach fixes, now I shall hold off until I've seen the Sports video.

(btw, I checked the 13.6 zipfile and Beach 1 is fine...it must be because the editor uses that level slot and something got corrupted)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on June 21, 2022, 10:38:12 PM
Nice videos. Outdoor does seem broken in places, and Beach seems to be made of cheese rather than sand. I actually think Sports is one of the hardest tribes in the pack, so glad to hear you enjoyed it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And this leads onto a new build with many changes:

====================
Version 13.7 has been released
====================


Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - extended the metal above the exit. (to match the metal below)
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - replaced the fence post by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - added some metal under the trapdoor area. (safer CC)
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - replaced the mushroom by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - lowered the tree down a touch. (to prevent ballooning directly out)
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - redesigned the middle, removed the 2nd trapdoor, raised the exits, altered some skill amounts.
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - removed the long vine sticking out of the tree on the left side.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - redesigned the buried trapdoor near the exit.

Beach 2 (The Sand Pit) - extended the pit to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - added a metal block to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - raised a ledge up to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - removed a little cloud to prevent it being cheesed. Also extended the cloud below the trapdoor, -1 diver, +3 flamethrowers. (a little bit of skill management going in there)
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - added another column of beach huts to the left trapdoor to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - some alterations to the cave itself. Also +2 surfers.
Beach 9 (Dune Climbing Contest) - added some sand and 1 platformer, to make the CC easier.
Beach 10 (Artificial Resort) - added 1 platformer, to make the CC in that area easier. (there was enough sand already)

Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - slight rework of the trapdoor area (again), this time adding a wall and 2 rock climbers.
Sports 3 (Letting off Steam) - removed the scenery-only steam jets, and added a slight visual clue for the valve.
Sports 4 (Hold the Line) - reduced fencers and archers to 1, miners by 1, added a few shimmiers and tweaked a couple of areas.
Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - removed a fencer, as it was the only way to preserve the main concept. (unfortunately that means you now have to fence the right way, but pausing always seems to work)
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - carved a metal-floored path under the valves, added wedges to enable a rock climber to get up to the top area. (instead of mining down from the valves)
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - altered the ceilings to prevent shimmiers from crossing. (so many great solutions in this tribe, that I have to remove one to protect another)
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - many alterations to many parts of the level. (it was quite hard to fix this one)
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - +1 min.
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - lowered the top of the pipe area (including the exit) down a touch, for easier execution. Also +5 miners for flexibility.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on June 22, 2022, 09:45:51 PM
Part 12. Will I finish Shadow Tribe in this video? You'll need to watch to find out!
https://youtu.be/3OAUlmet1zU
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on June 22, 2022, 10:46:17 PM
Didn't expect that:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on June 28, 2022, 05:53:46 PM
Another new build - after fixing a Shadow backroute, I decided to check over the last 3 tribes - just in case anything was wrong. And it was:

====================
Version 13.8 has been released
====================


Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassible) - replaced the gate with metal blocks, leaving only a thin shaft for the rock climber.

Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - some slight alterations to terrain and skill counts, to prevent a backroute and CC.
Cavelem 6 (Last Rule of Bash Club) - slightly reduced the skill counts.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) - added some more metal across the top of the cave.

Space 3 (Magno Force) - swapped with L4, weird pit edges removed and renamed "Alien Hideout".
Space 4 (Orbital Bombardment) - swapped with L3.
Space 6 (Laser Quest) - complete redesign of the middle, it's now puzzly instead of pure execution. Skills altered a bit too, and swapped with L7 due to increased difficulty.
Space 7 (JMC Mining Complex) - swapped with L6, slight alteration to one cave.
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - blocked the wrong side of the white teleporter. (it was a possible shortcut)

Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - a few changes, mainly to make the 2 big drops skier-proof. (I forgot they increase the splat distance a little)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - a couple of slight terrain changes, to make the solution a little less counter-intuitive.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on July 09, 2022, 03:20:58 PM
Part 13: https://youtu.be/-krq50fQZLQ

It looks like my recording had some framerate issues in places for some reason. Sorry about that.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on July 22, 2022, 10:27:08 PM
Part 14: https://youtu.be/52whP1y6q-0
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 24, 2022, 11:52:09 PM
Nice vids, relatively little to fix with some of these:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

There'll be another build soon (with a couple of Polar fixes and the rest of the metal trick that you noted), but I'll probably wait to see if anything else needs fixing in there.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on July 27, 2022, 09:23:04 PM
Part 15: https://youtu.be/lXYuvn0woL4
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 29, 2022, 11:09:17 AM
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

And now onto the next build:

====================
Version 13.9 has been released
====================


Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - lengthened the runner pit near the end and added a block to ensure that the climber has to go through first. Also -3 shimmiers, to prevent both lemmings from jumping there & back across the water. (these measures should make it a bit tighter)
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - reworked the top area, to make the opening puzzle more obvious. Also added metal down the shaft to fix a backroute.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - slight changes to the first 2 areas, to disable and re-enable certain solutions.

Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - slightly enlarged the central building and lined it with metal, to fix a very clever backroute. Also shortened the hanging building and moved the clouds to maintain the gap.

Cavelem 2 (Land vs. Sea vs. Air) - added metal to the top ledge, put a hole in the basin, changed a few skills to prevent backroutes.
Cavelem 4 (Ruined Temple) - removed some rock at the temple exit, -2 builders, +1 stacker.  (this increases the difficulty slightly)
Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - more changes to prevent shortcutting.

Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - removed the airlock by the trapdoor, -2 builders, +1 glue pourer. (this makes it more difficult and more appropriate for it's slot)
Space 9 (Space Glue Factory) - minor terrain changes for easier execution.

Polar 2 (Piste Off) - added metal underneath the top area and reworked the bottom to fix backroutes.
Polar 3 (Icy Races) - replaced the leftmost water with a pit and slope, +1 flamethrower, -1 stacker. (changing the solution slightly)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: kieranmillar on August 21, 2022, 12:25:53 PM
Part 16: https://youtu.be/LACgj1bzVGA
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on August 21, 2022, 10:43:35 PM
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on September 04, 2022, 10:21:41 PM
Time for a new build, with various random things:

====================
Version 13.10 has been released
====================


Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - shortened all the ledges down the centre, to prevent ropes from reaching across to any of them above the exit ledge.

Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - moved some terrain up/down and added some metal, in order to add a 2nd twister.

Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - extended the metal block near the exit downwards, to fix a backroute.

Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - removed an erronious trapdoor. (ugh)
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) - removed a fencer and 2 rollers.
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - reduced platformers & stackers to 3 each. Added 4 miners, 5 archers and some wooden blocks, as a result. (unfortunately this makes the level even harder, but it was the only way to prevent bridging all the way across to the castle)

Egyptian 6 (Tomb of Ikea) - added metal to the ledges in the puzzle area. (it was possible to backroute after the stomper was added)
Egyptian 9 (The Plunger's Tomb) - added metal to fix a very clever backroute. (that I found myself)

Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - added more metal above the exit.
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - changed the face plant at the bottom, so it can't be blown up anymore.

Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - moved the small clam ledge up a bit. (possible glider backroute)
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - reverted the previous change to the sand pile at the foot of the cliff.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - removed a couple of skills, to tighten the management even more.
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - extended the metal on the slope all the way down to the water. (to fix a backroute that starts by the exit)
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - removed an erronious test trapdoor. (ugh)

Sports 3 (Letting Off Steam) - lowered part of the bottom section, as the fencer could get up unaided before.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - added a metal block to prevent the miner from finishing up too high.
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - altered the top section and -1 rock climber, to make the runner mandatory.

Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - added a small block to the upward indoor section. (it was still possible to backroute)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - moved the top right trapdoor back to it's proper location. (ugh)

Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - removed 2 builders, after discovering they weren't needed to go over the purple teleporter.

Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - added metal to the thinnest section (another self-discovered backroute fix) and a new puzzle to the bottom section. (the level wasn't really hard enough)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on November 20, 2022, 10:03:48 PM
And another one, with more random things...but with a major focus on tieing down the number of various skills used (to prevent backroutes by being able to save a skill or two). I also found myself fixing stuff simply by removing skills and/or time. (so there are a few levels where the time limit is an indicator of the wrong solution)

====================
Version 13.11 has been released
====================


Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - raised the height of the pillars and exit. (I still managed to backroute it)
Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - extended the first cloud you land on (to make it easier) and added some skills just in case.
Highland 4 (Lemfidditch Distillery) - raised the bottom of the water pit. (for easier twistering)
Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - +5 twisters (it is upwards after all) and -1 roper, which now forces a choice between an easier start and an easier end.

Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - -4 laser blasters, as it was possible to bypass the cannon. (unfortunately making it a little harder)
Circus 4 (Don't Capture the Flag) - reworked the trapdoor areas and some of the skillset. (which finally fixes the backroute, along with now requiring only 1 lemming from each side to travel round)
Circus 5 (Across the Abyss) - lowered the trapdoor (as a hint) and -2 mins. (I can't force either solution without being too nasty, but I can make the alternative solution a little harder.  I have cleared it in just over 3 mins with multi-tasking, though)
Circus 6 (The Weighting Room) - -2 mins, to force the original solution. (it's nice that time limits can be used in this way)
Circus 9 (Roadblock) - slight change to the terrain on the red/yellow side.

Medieval 2 (Cave of Knaves) - slight tweak to the roof of the SW cave (more headroom) and replaced 2 builders with 3 archers. (they weren't really involved much in the construction)
Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - removed some skills and 2 mins. (to force a harder version of the solution, and also to introduce a certain trick a few levels earlier)
Medieval 6 (White Cliffs of Dunder) - slight tweaks to the skillset.
Medieval 7 (Dungeon & Dragon) - slight tweaks to the skillset.
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - added a metal strip (to prevent an alternative way to the middle trapdoor) and tweaked the skillset.

Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - altered the terrain under the trapdoor (it was still possible to save a stomper here)
Egyptian 3 (Night Boat to Duat) - added metal all the way along between the 2 paths (backroute fix), -2 fillers. (not needed)
Egyptian 7 (Sidestepping Evolution) - +1 shimmier, to make the final action a bit easier.
Egyptian 10 (Mandatory Pyramid Level) - +2 bashers, in case the stomper on the right side gets out of place.

Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - removed a few skills, as it was still possible to bypass the flicker snail.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - shortened the wooden ledge at the top. (for easier ballooning)
Outdoor 5 (Treetop Village) - +2 ballooners. (for cancelling skills)
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - added some skills in case things go wrong early on. (or if a 2nd worker is wanted)
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - reverted the scoopers/bombers to 2 each. (quicker and easier for the right-side tunnelling)
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - added a vine to help the top-left trapdoor, and a few more skills to ease the pressure a bit.

Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - added some gliders and removed some platformers.
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - made the sandy cliff slope downward a little in front of the exit. (it was possible to backroute by having it flat with sand piles on)
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - replaced the floating island with a cloud and the sand pourer with a flamethrower. (it is now a completely sandless Beach level)
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - added 1 more bit of metal to prevent gliding from the exit platform.
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - enlarged the island slightly. (so no need to pour sand on a pointy bit)

Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - lowered the shuttlecocks to ensure that the crowd has to pass through them (important to know for L10). Also -2 archers and -2 platformers. (not needed)

Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - added a bit of metal around the sewers. (bazookas are surprisingly good at backrouting)
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - added more metal around the cannon room. (I backrouted it myself)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassable) - altered the terrain and the skillset, to finally kill the alternative route.

Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - reworked the water and the dino section (finally fixing the backroute) and added another puzzle for good measure. Also +1 spearer, -1 builder.
Cavelem 8 (Up in the Jungle) - removed a few skills to prevent an alternative route that bypassed the main puzzle.
Cavelem 9 (Devolution of Lemmings) - slight rework of mid-level terrain, to tie down the number of builders used (there was a couple of spots where you might use 1 or 2, and the level will break if there are 3 spares). +2 builders as a result.

Space 6 (JMC Mining Complex) - slight tweak to the left cave, to ensure safe magno-booting.
Space 7 (Laser Quest) - removed some skills and the end off the starting ledges, as the level was taking a bit too long to complete.

Polar 4 (It's All Downhill!) - lowered the entire level slightly. (so it doesn't appear to be quite such a big drop into the exit cave)
Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - added more metal to the previously-added metal.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on May 08, 2023, 02:20:38 PM
I've recently been recording some of the video playthroughs, and having fun in the process. Been making a bunch of changes along the way, and will put up a release candidate when I'm done.

I've also discovered the existence of DOSBox-X (http://www.dosbox-x.com), which has savestates built-in by default. (I used it to run Win 98 so I could play Swiv 3D using savestates)
Link added to the main page.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: jkapp76 on July 19, 2023, 12:21:02 AM
https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZAHhOVZqUmQzmyvPnRJqtcULY4T5L8sNvkX

I just updated my portable version of Lemmings 2 to include this level pack as well as Kieran's

Just unzip to a folder and choose one of the three optional packs to play.
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: Ste Woz Ere on July 25, 2023, 11:26:48 PM
The videos are done, took a while but it was great fun. It also uncovered a whole host of issues and improvements to be made, in fact over a third of the levels got changed in some way. Some got easier, some got harder, some got fixed, some got improved.

The changes are mainly to fix backroutes and improve the execution side, which is always going to be an issue with levels of this size and difficulty in a game with 51 skills and a finicky fan. That's why I recommend the use of savestates, just like how everyone uses player aids in NL etc. to negate it there:

DOSBox with savestates (https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?p=584684)

DOSBox-X (https://www.dosbox-x.com) (savestates built-in by default)

This version is a release candidate - so if you have played the previous version, please let me know if you found anything that needs fixing or improving (especially on the last 3 tribes) so I can make it as good as possible.

====================
Version 13.12 has been released
====================


Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - improved the water trap, so it looks slightly less ugly. (damn crawlers)
Highland 8 (Loch Lemmond Storage Tank) - restored the scenery to the cave ceiling, and +1 mortar to help get through it.
Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - reverted the +1 twister change from earlier, and replaced it with 3 mortars. (I did like the creativity involved with using the 2nd one, but it made it possible to bypass part of the puzzle)

Circus 1 (Base Camp) - a couple of cosmetic changes.
Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - swapped with L4, thinned out the roof of the inside (for easier ballooning), added/moved metal. (so it was possible to add 4 laser blasters without causing a backroute at the cannon)
Circus 4 (Don't Capture the Flag) - swapped with L3.
Circus 6 (The Weighting Room) - added 4 laser blasters. (it could get too close for comfort)
Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - reverted the +1 twister change from earlier (it was causing puzzle bypasses), reworked terrain slightly (adding even more room for the remaining twister), -2 platformers (not needed), +3 superlems. (more room for error)

Classic 7 (Stepping Up & Down) - reworked some terrain (it was still possible to backroute) and all the scenery. Renamed to "Rising Column Scene" as a result. (an L1 reference to the new scenery)

Medieval 1 (Base Camp) - fixed the catapult to look right. (cosmetic)
Medieval 2 (Cave of Knaves) - swapped with L6 (too hard for it's current slot). Shortened 2 ledges and removed some bridges as a result. (now it's a bit harder like a concept level such as this should be, with some archery tricks from vanilla Sports 10 thrown in)
Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - swapped with L4.
Medieval 4 (Finishing the Arc) - swapped with L3.
Medieval 5 (Acrobatic Outlaw) - added wooden boards to each side of the water and slowed the release rate. (it was a little too hard to click the roller and get the first stack up in time)
Medieval 6 (White Cliffs of Dunder) - swapped with L2 (too easy for it's current slot, and moving it also works thematically and as an introduction to the tribe's heavy construction specialty). Also added some wall brackets to the top trapdoor. (so the rescuer can't escape)
Medieval 7 (Dungeon & Dragon) - added some markers into the ground by the tall tree. (to give a clearer indication of where to build from)
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - carved a vertical wall into the rockface near the start (to remove the climber who was awkward to control) and altered the skillset a little.
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) - raised the height of the side holes all the way up, reworked the exit area, reduced rollers to 5 and the timer to 5 mins. This kills off the backroute where 1 lemming could do all the work before the crowd got there, at the expense of changing it to a race against the clock. Renamed to "Tower of Madness" as a result.

Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - moved to L3.
Egyptian 3 (Night Boat to Duat) - moved to L4, added metal to the outside ledge, +1 carpet, -1 basher, -1 stomper. (backroute fixes)
Egyptian 4 (Wade in the Water) - moved to L2 (it's more novelty than puzzly), reworked the drop-down to the exit area.
Egyptian 8 (The Chambers of Cain) - removed some excess skills and added 1 filler.
Egyptian 10 (Mandatory Pyramid Level) - added a block under the central trapdoor on the right side (makes it easier to get the stomper in the right place), and -2 bashers. (to prevent their use on the pyramid itself)

Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - reworked the bottom slightly, removed some excess skills.
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - major rework of the area between the last 2 cave sections (including an extra flicker snail) and -1 platformer.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - added 1 planter, in case the worker needs to turn round at the top.
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - re-added the 4th trapdoor (top left) and replaced most scoopers with bombers. (it's more reliable in most areas)
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - added a thin grass layer under the left trapdoor. (makes it easier to get out with a planter)
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - reworked the ledge under the middle right trapdoor (top of vine ladder), making it easier/more reliable to tunnel into.

Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - complete rework of the middle section, and altered the skills as a result. (the glider puzzle is still there, but it wasn't really working in it's previous form)

Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - added 1 min. (way too tight)
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - moved the red blocks closer to the steam vent, making it easier to find and execute the right mining spot. (that was my main concern in this level)

Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - moved a metal block into it's right place. (bug fix)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassable) - added 1 rock climber. (an extra lemming up top is helpful for speeding things up)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - added a wedge to the bottom right trapdoor, and removed some excess bombers.

Cavelem 2 (Land vs. Sea vs. Air) - altered the mid-level terrain (for easier management of the walkers), removed an excess stacker.

Space 3 (Orbital Bombardment) - swapped with L4, removed the metal in the cave walls, added some skills. This alters the solution so it's completely different on the right side of the level. (as a result it's more complex, but no longer a boring symmetrical novelty level)
Space 4 (Alien Hideout) - swapped with L3. (because of the above changes)
Space 5 (Defying Gravity) - lowered the exit (so it's not possible to fail at the end now) and improved the scenery.
Space 6 (JMC Mining Complex) - improved the pit area next to the left trapdoor (less likely to break into it now), removed 2 builders (not needed) and +3 mortars. (to give you a choice of explosions)
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - slowed the release rate (easier to set up the attractor now) and a slight change to the skillset.

Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - slight rework of the floor in the bottom-right corner. (it was still possible to backroute there)
Polar 6 (Ice Box Challenge) - slight rework of the cave ceiling (easier to scoop down into now), raised the top left trapdoor up a little. (so the stacker is required now)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - added a flamethrower, in case it's needed for error correction.
Polar 9 (Avalanche Rescue Team) - removed the scooper and moved the bottom-left trapdoor into the next cave up. (backroute fix)

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZAHhOVZqUmQzmyvPnRJqtcULY4T5L8sNvkX

I just updated my portable version of Lemmings 2 to include this level pack as well as Kieran's

Just unzip to a folder and choose one of the three optional packs to play.

Sorry to bring the bad news, but can you update it again with this version?
Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Tribes of Steel - WIP Thread (12 tribes complete, needs testing)
Post by: jkapp76 on July 26, 2023, 02:11:32 AM
It's not bad news at all. The download is now updated and uses the same download link as before.
I completely remade the selection menu for this too.

https://u.pcloud.link/publink/show?code=XZAHhOVZqUmQzmyvPnRJqtcULY4T5L8sNvkX