Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!  (Read 628 times)

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Online WillLem

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[NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« on: November 10, 2020, 01:28:25 am »
The challenge is simple! Complete any pack using only Builders & Bashers.

You may edit the skillset for each level with as many Builders & Bashers as you like, but no other skills are allowed. The idea is to

a) Solve the level, obvs

and

b) Minimise the use of Builders & Bashers. Note that the TOTAL figure is what's important here, with solutions which spread the skills as evenly as possible being preferred (i.e. 3 of each is better than 6 of one, even though the latter eliminates one of the skills).

and

c) Save as many lemmings as possible!

Enjoy the challenge! :lemcat:

---

Packs played for this challenge (click link to skip to results):

Lemmings by DMA Design
Oh No! More Lemmings by DMA Design
Lemminas by WillLem
GeoffLems by Geoffster

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #1 on: November 10, 2020, 01:29:30 am »
Original Lemmings

Please note that the following records have yet to be completed:
Levels in blue are of particular interest - replays provided

N.B. Results shown are for Maximum Possible Saved (100% unless noted).

Contributors: WillLem, Proxima, namida, nin10doadict

Fun (click to show/hide)

Tricky (click to show/hide)

Taxing (click to show/hide)

Mayhem (click to show/hide)

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2020, 01:30:11 am »
Oh No! More Lemmings

N.B. Results shown are for Maximum Possible Saved (100% unless noted).
Levels in blue are of particular interest - replays provided

Contributors: WillLem, Proxima, nin10doadict

Tame (click to show/hide)

Crazy (click to show/hide)

Wild (click to show/hide)

Wicked (click to show/hide)

Havoc (click to show/hide)

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2020, 01:30:33 am »
Lemminas

Please note that the following records have yet to be completed:
Levels in blue are of particular interest - replays provided

N.B. Results shown are for Maximum Possible Saved (100% unless noted).

Contributors: WillLem, Proxima, nin10doadict

Magical (click to show/hide)

Sensational (click to show/hide)

Tricksy (click to show/hide)

Pandemonium (click to show/hide)

*See this post for a Bonus challenge of all the "Requires Cloners" levels.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2020, 11:37:54 am »
It should also be noted that the goal is to minimise the total number of skills, not each skill separately. (Results should have a "Total" column.)

Here's Fun 3 with 11 skills (10 builders, 1 basher).

Fun 12 is incorrectly recorded; it's 2 builders, 1 basher for any% and an additional 3 builders for 100%, so 5 and 1 in total.

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #5 on: November 11, 2020, 12:19:45 am »
It should also be noted that the goal is to minimise the total number of skills, not each skill separately. (Results should have a "Total" column.)

Good shout! I've added a "Total" column. And yes, to clarify: the numbers shown are not "fewest of each skill in any given solution", they are "fewest of each skill in the same solution" - so the total figure is what's important.

I've updated the OP to reflect this as well.

Thanks also for the updates/corrections, I've updated accordingly :thumbsup:


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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #7 on: November 12, 2020, 10:20:08 pm »
Tricky records added. I'm working on Taxing this evening so will have that updated later as well :lemcat:

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2020, 01:28:08 am »
I think for Fun 23/Taxing 17 it should be necessary to specify whether you took the visible exits on the left or the hidden exit on the right. Based on my playing of the Fun version, I'm guessing you guys took the visible exits route. However, I was able to use 1 less builder. Same number of bashers, but 1 less builder. Shortly after that, I was able to reduce the number of builders, as well as use 1 less basher and hence bring down the total number of skills down to 18. 11 builders, 7 bashers. So, 5 less builders, 1 less basher, and so 6 less skills overall. See my replay.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

After that, I decided to try for the hidden exit on the right. Here, I got 14 builders, 9 bashers, and so 23 skills total. See my replay. So even though I bested the record in the OP by 1 less total skill, here I reduced the number of builders by 2 (-2), but I used 1 more basher (+1), hence -1 (-2 + 1 = -1) net effect to the total number of skills used. So, it seems that it'll always require way more skills than the left visible exits, especially since I don't think it's possible to get anywhere near the 18 skills total I used for the left exits. So, perhaps it's not necessary to specify which exit you went for in the level, although I still think it's a good idea to and try and improve results just for the exits you went for, like how I drastically improved the result for the left exit with just 18 skills total. Now, can anyone improve my 23 skills total result for the right hidden exit?
« Last Edit: November 13, 2020, 01:40:43 am by kaywhyn »

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2020, 02:49:19 am »
Thanks for the contribution kaywhyn, I've checked your replay in for both levels and updated the records accordingly. Nice work!

I've also now posted all initial results for Lemmings. I'm sure a lot of these can be improved upon, and some have yet to be confirmed. I'll do that tomorrow though, too tired to go through the replays now!

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2020, 03:35:35 am »
Ok, improved the result even more for Fun 23/Taxing 17. Total skills now down to 16 skills, 10 builders, 6 bashers. Same replay, except

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2020, 03:41:35 am »
Brilliant stuff Kaywhyn! Records updated :thumbsup:

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2020, 03:51:11 am »
I guess what this challenge is aiming to establish is the smallest possible combination of skills that can solve every level. It would seem, from the results posted so far, that original Lemmings in its entirety can be solved using only Builders, Bashers, Floaters and Diggers (those levels which have 79/80 saved or that are currently impossible would be both possible and 100%-able with the inclusion of Diggers). It's probable that the same is also true for the Oh No! levels.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2020, 09:14:54 am »
I guess what this challenge is aiming to establish is the smallest possible combination of skills that can solve every level.

Or at least, the smallest combination including builders and bashers, since that was our starting point.

Could all levels be solvable with some combination of 3 skills? Because of splat hatch levels, one would have to be floater or glider; obviously one would have to be constructive and one destructive. But sometimes upward destruction is required (as on "The Boiler Room") and sometimes downward destruction is (as on "The Far Side"). Bombers can't be used, because some levels require 100%.

Next question, then. There are 16 ways to choose one of {floater, glider}, one of {builder, stacker}, one of {basher, fencer} and one of {miner, digger}. Do all 16 choices allow all original levels to be solved? (Not all custom levels will be solvable, because some levels may have a hatch over water and therefore absolutely require swimmers.)

(Platformers can't be chosen as the constructive skill; "Last one out is a rotten egg" shows this.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2020, 09:41:07 am »
Actually... here's a horrible thought. There is one 3-skill combination that might potentially be able to solve all original levels, but it would be unbearably painful and tedious.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Anyone want to give that a try? :P

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #15 on: November 18, 2020, 07:59:28 am »
There is one 3-skill combination that might potentially be able to solve all original levels, but it would be unbearably painful and tedious.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Imagine playing Hunt the Nessy with that challenge!!! :lem-mindblown: :scared:

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Re: [NeoLemmix][ANY PACK] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #16 on: November 18, 2020, 08:05:24 am »
Added records for Lemminas - Sensational. Most noteworthy in this bunch is Falling Forever, which I didn't think would be possible initially due to its layout and inherent reliance on Floaters. However, it turned out to be possible with a little bit of tweaking!

Please note that I have now updated the challenge rules and the previous records so that any levels which require any other skills to pass are considered impossible for this challenge. This is due to the fact that, whilst the original levels are all possible with either Floaters or Diggers in addition to Bashers and Builders, custom packs (such as Lemminas) are far more likely to rely on new skills such as Gliders, Swimmers and Cloners, which creates more unnecessary nuance to this challenge if other skills are "allowed" purely for the sake of creating a record. Instead, the reasons for a level's impossibility will be noted, so that it's still possible to use these records to determine which skills are "essential" for solving a pack's level maps.

It should also be noted that some levels in custom packs feature pre-assigned skill hatches. It's up for debate as to whether such levels ought to be classed as "possible" for the purposes of this challenge, since they essentially do feature "use" of other skills. However, since these skills are permanent, it could be argued that these levels are "athlete" levels, and therefore not subject to the same rules as levels for regular walkers. Feel free to chip in if you have a view on this, for now I'll keep them as "possible" (if they are indeed possible to solve with only Builders & Bashers in addition to the pre-assigned skills).

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #17 on: November 19, 2020, 01:05:18 am »
ONML - Wild results posted. Most notable here was THE SILENCE OF THE LEMMINGS, clocking in at a whopping 100 skills (52 Builders, 48 Bashers) and only just making the time limit!

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #18 on: November 23, 2020, 04:15:41 am »
Lemminas - Tricksy and ONML - Wicked results posted!

Quite a few impossible ones this time, and some gems as well, including my favourite levels of the challenge so far!

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #19 on: November 23, 2020, 06:26:49 am »
Lemminas - Pandemonium results posted. Another load of impossible ones (including level 15, ironically!), with level 10 I'll Just Wait Here, Shall I? being a particularly disappointing "impossible" level due to having quite an interesting solution - it is possible to create a safe passage for the lems with just Builders & Bashers, but a Cloner is required to meet the save requirement, which is the only thing making it impossible.

I'll likely come back and do the "requires Cloners" levels again at some point; it might be worth doing a separate post just for these levels. Those requiring Diggers, Floaters, Gliders or Stackers are that bit more definitive in their impossibility, due to requiring a skill which affects terrain and/or lemming movement rather than just a cloned lemming to meet the save requirement.


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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #21 on: November 23, 2020, 01:26:54 pm »
Pandemonium 8 - Staircase To Nowhere III, clocking in at a colossal 173 Builders and 52 Bashers!!!!!!! :lem-mindblown:

Almost certainly improvable :lemcat:

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #22 on: November 23, 2020, 04:06:58 pm »
Bonus - Lemminas "Requires Cloners" Levels

For the purposes of this challenge, I've decided to change the save requirement for levels requiring Cloners to 100% (instead of more than 100%, which is the only thing making it "impossible" to complete the levels with Builders & Bashers).

Probably the most interesting of these, solution-wise, is Pandemonium 10, which doesn't seem possible at first, but makes full use of the terrain to delay the worker and create a safe passage for the crowd.

Rank#LevelBuildersBashersTotal
Magical7Lemminas Luv M.C. Escher21340/40 Saved
Sensational1Worra Lorra Lemminas022300/300 Saved
Sensational10The Strange Boutique0001/1 Saved (Becomes a Self-Solve)
Tricksy7Easy Peasy Lemmina Squeezy941316/16 Saved
Pandemonium1Lemmina City Steel Facility21930100/100 Saved
Pandemonium10I'll Just Wait Here, Shall I?28836300/300 Saved

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #23 on: November 24, 2020, 10:15:54 am »
GeoffLems

Please note that the following records have yet to be completed:
Levels in blue are of particular interest - replays provided

N.B. Results shown are for Maximum Possible Saved (100% unless noted).

Contributors: WillLem

Fun (click to show/hide)

Tricky (click to show/hide)

Taxing (click to show/hide)

Mayhem (click to show/hide)

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #24 on: November 25, 2020, 05:04:29 am »
Table template:

Group Title (click to show/hide)

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #25 on: November 25, 2020, 06:21:15 am »
ONML - Havoc results updated, plus some new replays from Proxima 8-)

Also uploaded initial results for GeoffLems - Fun, I'm sure some of these may be improvable!


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Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Reply #27 on: November 26, 2020, 07:53:38 pm »
It turns out that Tricksy 5 Lemmina Drops is possible! Results updated :lemcat: