Author Topic: Ultimate Lemmings!  (Read 348 times)

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Offline WillLem

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Ultimate Lemmings!
« on: September 21, 2019, 10:49:54 pm »
Hey everyone,

Any of you coders out there interested in collaborating with me on a SuperLemmini-style re-vamp, complete with new features and a built-in user-friendly editor, similar to the latest NeoLemmix editor?

Lemmings is a lovely game, I'm sure we all agree. Essentially I'm interested in creating an ultimate version, where players can load any level format, choose between different visual styles (DOS/WINLEMM/Lemmini/Genesis/etc), and create levels using a nice, intuitive interface. I'm thinking it may be possible to combine all the best elements of the versions of Lemmings & level editors which exist today.

Think... Super Mario Maker, but for Lemmings.

Any takers?

- WillLem 8-)
Student of NeoLemmix.
Want to create some levels, but prefer the visual style of Lemmini rather than classic DOS... interested in collaborating with coders on an update!

Offline grams88

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #1 on: September 22, 2019, 02:54:33 am »
Hi WillLem

I don't think I would be much help myself but I there was a forum member who I think was involved with the Neolemmix but it got passed back to the original creater due to absence, I could be wrong and he could still be active in the community but I've not heard from him or seen any new posts from him.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #2 on: September 22, 2019, 08:12:51 am »
So how I understand this: You want NeoLemmix, but with the ability to switch from low-res to high-res graphics.

WINLEMM/Lemmini graphics are the same as Lemmini specifically needs WINLEMM to get the nessesary data. From DOS I remember the only difference is that it doubles the resolution.

For Genesis graphics I would simply advice to use the already existing Genesis tilesets in NeoLemmix. So that already exists.

Load any level format: Currently the old Lemmix editor can still load (Super)Lemmini files and convert them to Lemmix level files. These can then be read by the NeoLemmix editor and be converted to the current level format, so the file format should not stop you from converting something.

So it seems the only thing that is missing are the higher resolutions graphics and I think that's not enough of a base to create an entire different engine for. Or did I miss a thing? ???
Also, it could be the case that a higher res gets in the way of solving a lot of more advanced levels where you 100% need to see every pixel as it requires some pixel-precise actions. So quite a few levels could only be possible in low-res.

Quote
I'm thinking it may be possible to combine all the best elements of the versions of Lemmings & level editors which exist today.

I think this comic highlights another problem that will probably arise: ;)



Lix should already have some higher resolution graphics, so maybe that would be a suitable option for the time being.

« Last Edit: September 22, 2019, 12:09:26 pm by IchoTolot »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #3 on: September 22, 2019, 10:05:59 am »
Hi, I removed the other post in the SuperLemmini thread as it was basically the exact same post, and it's better to have replies kept in one place like here.

With most people here still primarily playing and creating on NeoLemmix and Lix, and both are still actively maintained and updated, it seems pretty tricky to me to get anyone here to jump over to a new game and editor you'll be making.  You'll likely have to offer a bunch of new things that aren't available in the other games and also compelling enough to get people to start creating new levels specifically for your game and for yet others to try them.

At the start I suspect there'll be many here who takes a wait-and-see approach, and will be sticking with NeoLemmix or Lix that they are already familiar with.  This will create a dilemma for level designers.  Should they create levels for your game and risk having fewer people trying them out, or stick with the games that they know already have an audience?  They could potentially at least port their levels over to your game's format (assuming it's easy and quick for them to do so), but then they won't be using anything unique to your game in those ported levels, and thus wouldn't be highlighting anything new that would help differentiate your game from the other ones.

I think best case scenario, the world is large and there are perhaps plenty other people out there who will be interested in trying your game and editor, and yet have no awareness of this forum, NeoLemmix, nor Lix.  If you can reach those people, that will give your new game the best chances of an eager audience that aren't biased towards the existing games like NeoLemmix and Lix.

All that being said, don't get too discouraged and feel free to prove me wrong! ;) We do see people here trying out contemporary, commercially-released lemmings and lemmings-like games from time to time, so I'm sure even here you will get at least a few people to try out what you've produced.  Especially if it also comes with new levels that have compelling visuals and puzzles.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2019, 05:46:56 pm »
For Genesis graphics I would simply advice to use the already existing Genesis tilesets in NeoLemmix. So that already exists.

This isn't actually true anymore. We do still have the dirt tileset, but the remaining sets were never updated to new formats. At one point I'd added missing objects to make them feature complete relative to the NeoLemmix versions of the Amiga/DOS sets, but eventually features like piece names were added and expected and so the amount of work that would have been needed to update them was a bit much at that point. For some reason, someone else seems to have taken over the maintenance of the dirt set but not the others.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #5 on: September 22, 2019, 06:20:55 pm »
I'm not sure who is "maintaining" the Genesis Dirt set, but it does exist in new formats, and I believe is part of the standard installation.

Almost certainly, the reason for this is that Genesis Dirt has markedly different coloration from its Amiga/DOS equivalent, so designers may want to use the Genesis version for effect, or because it works particularly well with other tilesets. Also, at the time we were compiling the Lemmings Redux pack, I held a vote for whether people wanted to keep levels originating from Genesis Lemmings in this tileset, and a substantial majority were in favour. It's hard to see especially compelling reasons for porting the other Genesis sets as well, when they are only slightly different from the Amiga/DOS versions.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2019, 11:26:48 pm »
It's hard to see especially compelling reasons for porting the other Genesis sets as well, when they are only slightly different from the Amiga/DOS versions.

Of the 5 sets, while all are slightly different in terms of coloration, 3 are obviously different from their DOS counterparts - Dirt, Crystal, and Pillar. Personally, I'm rather fond of the darker blue Crystal set. Fire is similar enough to DOS that it's a bit hard to tell, but still different. As for Marble, to be honest, until I ported NeoLemmix exclusive objects to it, I thought they might be exactly the same, but as it turns out they are slightly different - it's just nearly impossible to tell without doing a side-by-side comparison.

My old edit of the Crystal set had some lovely blue recolors of the updraft sprite to avoid adding additional colors to the set. Maybe one day I'll update that one specifically.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2019, 11:58:51 am »
Hi WillLem

I don't think I would be much help myself but I there was a forum member who I think was involved with the Neolemmix but it got passed back to the original creater due to absence, I could be wrong and he could still be active in the community but I've not heard from him or seen any new posts from him.

Hi grams88, thanks for your reply. I think you mean SL rather than NL; yes, apparently he hasn't been acitve one here for a while now. I've PM'd him but for now I'm focusing on reaching out to people who are currently active in the community.

So how I understand this: You want NeoLemmix, but with the ability to switch from low-res to high-res graphics.

Yes! That's exactly the idea!

Load any level format: Currently the old Lemmix editor can still load (Super)Lemmini files and convert them to Lemmix level files. These can then be read by the NeoLemmix editor and be converted to the current level format, so the file format should not stop you from converting something.

Well, yeees but that seems a bit cumbersome and faffy tbh. It'd be nice to have a shiny button in NeoLemmix that says "Hi-Res Mode" or maybe it could be activated as a mod...

We're talking through the mechanics of this idea in a poll I've created: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4410.new;topicseen#new, it may be best to migrate the discussion over there for now.

Quote
I'm thinking it may be possible to combine all the best elements of the versions of Lemmings & level editors which exist today.

I think this comic highlights another problem that will probably arise: ;)



Haha, brilliant. I particularly like the Agreeing Girl: "Yeah!" There's a meme in there somewhere :laugh:

With most people here still primarily playing and creating on NeoLemmix and Lix, and both are still actively maintained and updated, it seems pretty tricky to me to get anyone here to jump over to a new game and editor you'll be making.  You'll likely have to offer a bunch of new things that aren't available in the other games and also compelling enough to get people to start creating new levels specifically for your game and for yet others to try them.

At the start I suspect there'll be many here who takes a wait-and-see approach, and will be sticking with NeoLemmix or Lix that they are already familiar with.  This will create a dilemma for level designers.  Should they create levels for your game and risk having fewer people trying them out, or stick with the games that they know already have an audience?  They could potentially at least port their levels over to your game's format (assuming it's easy and quick for them to do so), but then they won't be using anything unique to your game in those ported levels, and thus wouldn't be highlighting anything new that would help differentiate your game from the other ones.

I think best case scenario, the world is large and there are perhaps plenty other people out there who will be interested in trying your game and editor, and yet have no awareness of this forum, NeoLemmix, nor Lix.  If you can reach those people, that will give your new game the best chances of an eager audience that aren't biased towards the existing games like NeoLemmix and Lix.

All that being said, don't get too discouraged and feel free to prove me wrong! ;) We do see people here trying out contemporary, commercially-released lemmings and lemmings-like games from time to time, so I'm sure even here you will get at least a few people to try out what you've produced.  Especially if it also comes with new levels that have compelling visuals and puzzles.

After feedback/consideration, I think the idea of slightly modifying NeoLemmix to incorporate Hi-Res/WinLemm-style graphics is a better solution than creating an entirely new engine. I was perhaps feeling a bit ambitious the day I created this post!
Student of NeoLemmix.
Want to create some levels, but prefer the visual style of Lemmini rather than classic DOS... interested in collaborating with coders on an update!

Offline WillLem

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2019, 12:02:00 pm »
Hi all,

Thanks for the feedback, it's great to meet people who are as enthusiastic about this stuff as I am (and perhaps more knowledgeable as well!).

This discussion is now being had over here in this poll: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4410.new;topicseen#new, please cast your vote and join the chat!

- WillLem
8-) :thumbsup:
Student of NeoLemmix.
Want to create some levels, but prefer the visual style of Lemmini rather than classic DOS... interested in collaborating with coders on an update!

Offline namida

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Re: Ultimate Lemmings!
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2019, 06:08:03 pm »
Quote
Hi grams88, thanks for your reply. I think you mean SL rather than NL; yes, apparently he hasn't been acitve one here for a while now. I've PM'd him but for now I'm focusing on reaching out to people who are currently active in the community.

No, he means NL. He's talking about Nepster, who NL development was handed over to for a while due to me not being very active Lemmings-wise, but who suddenly disappeared from the forums earlier this year. At this time, I had created implementations of a few planned features for NL, but got the feeling I was overwhelming Nepster a bit with how fast I created these so turned my attention to Lemmings 3D (a game that not much had been done for so far at this time) instead - but since Nepster hadn't returned by the time I had an L3D editor and a custom pack created, it pretty much fell to me to take back over on NL. So - Nepster is the inactive NL developer that was being referred to here.