Extended builder foot check

[DragonsLover]

Hey there everyone. Remember me? It's been a while.

I've just tried the NeoLemmix player with the "Extra Official Levels" set on the website. Great job about that! However, there's a few things here that bug me:

1. The animation of the particles from a bomber explosion is one frame too long, leaving coloured pixels at a weird positions at the end of the animation.
2. The builder behaviour is different when it has to build through a thin floor from below. Instead of continuing building to reach that floor, the builder stops when there's two extra platforms that should be built, which means you have to build two extra times in order to reach it. I don't know if it's an intended behaviour, but if it is, that makes the Genesis Sunsoft level 24 (Out, away from the tune) impossible to solve. Here's a screenshot to show you what I mean.

[Nepster]

Welcome back! And yes, I remember you, though only from your levels in the Lemmix Database.

Regarding the issues:
1) Yeah, this is a known bug. But until now, we didn't know which frame was problematic. möbius at some point tried to figure it out, but didn't get to the end, and I never considered this important enough to spend a lot of time analyzing it. But now it should be rather easy to fix. Thanks.
2) This is intended and is one of the changes namida did very early on, when he started working on NeoLemmix. Why he made all of the builder terrain checks stricter (and this doesn't apply just to the top checks), you have to ask him. But I distinctly remember someone posting a fixed version of Sunsoft 24 to fix this exact issue. I will leave it to Nessy (or whoever feels responsible for this pack at the moment) to find this fixed level and upload it.

PS: I moved the thread, as this is more of a bug report, so better fits here.

[namida]

2) This is intended and is one of the changes namida did very early on, when he started working on NeoLemmix. Why he made all of the builder terrain checks stricter (and this doesn't apply just to the top checks), you have to ask him. But I distinctly remember someone posting a fixed version of Sunsoft 24 to fix this exact issue. I will leave it to Nessy (or whoever feels responsible for this pack at the moment) to find this fixed level and upload it.

If I remember correctly, the NeoLemmix version of this level has an extra basher, which makes it solvable.

[IchoTolot]

I didn't even noticed the thing with the bomber explosion.

But reaching a thin ceiling with just 1 builder feels just totally wrong for me (also in the original game as you mentioned that Sunsoft level).

Most ceilings are especially there to interrupt and turn builders and I include thin ones in there as well. A hole is needed to reach up in one builder or you have to invest more builders.

There should also be the note that quite a few checks and physics-behaviors are different from the original, as there were a lot of bugs/glitches/inconsistancies that needed to go. Most of them were builder related as I remember - more details should be in the "Bugs&Suggestions" board.

[DragonsLover]

If I remember correctly, the NeoLemmix version of this level has an extra basher, which makes it solvable.

Indeed, I didn't notice the extra basher. But still, I'm finding it so-so about that change of gameplay rule. Why is it like that?

But reaching a thin ceiling with just 1 builder feels just totally wrong for me (also in the original game as you mentioned that Sunsoft level).

Most ceilings are especially there to interrupt and turn builders and I include thin ones in there as well. A hole is needed to reach up in one builder or you have to invest more builders.

I somehow agree with that, but even with the bomber used in that level to make a hole in that thin floor above, I could even not pass through it (see screenshot). I need to remove the extra thin floor next to it to allow the builder to close that gap. That's why I'm saying it's kind of ridiculous. Perhaps that a lot of you agree on that change, and I respect that, but from a standard Lemmings player, it makes it different and maybe even a bit more irritating. I assume there's a good reason and a good purpose for that change, I just don't totally agree with it.

[Flopsy]

I have a video of me playing this level (Sunsoft 24) on video because it was put into the Lemmings Redux pack and I found it irritating myself. I did solve it in the end but it was after off screening it, the solve footage is about 17 mins into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5pinTt2DQw&index=18&list=PLXsuXbpwwJzEGVrKPTonDCw_hZA8N4zyt&t=0s

I think it was down to the Genesis version of Lemmings having lax builder terrain checks which allowed the builders to get through that obstacle in 2 builders and one bomber without the need for the added basher.
I think the extra basher being required mid builder required a lot of unnecessary timing, I get that it was required to make the original solution work but it made the level so much harder than it needed to be!

Also, welcome back DragonsLover

[Nepster]

I fixed the exploder sprite issue for the next release.

And yes, coming from the original mechanics, the new builder behavior takes a while to get used to. I remember being annoyed by it, when I first encountered it in namida's Lemmings Plus packs, but I can certainly say: After a while you will get used to it.

[DragonsLover]

Also, welcome back DragonsLover

Thanks!

I fixed the exploder sprite issue for the next release.

Cool! Although it was not really about a sprite, but those flying pixels from the bomber explosion.

And yes, coming from the original mechanics, the new builder behavior takes a while to get used to. I remember being annoyed by it, when I first encountered it in namida's Lemmings Plus packs, but I can certainly say: After a while you will get used to it.

I think so, yeah. I think I'll just deal with it. But that still doesn't answer my question: Why? Why is it like that?

[Flopsy]

Personally I never needed to get used to the harsher builder terrain checks, when I played NeoLemmix for the first time I was quite at home with all the physics pretty much.
Maybe it was down to the fact that I was mainly brought up on Win 95 Lemmings and SNES Lemmings, not sure how harsh the physics in those games were exactly.

[IchoTolot]

I think so, yeah. I think I'll just deal with it. But that still doesn't answer my question: Why? Why is it like that?

Basic rule: When a builder hits his head or feet he stops and turns.

Making exceptions for thin ceilings doesn't make sense as they would be a inconsistancy to the general rule. When we have multiple ceiling types builders behave differently to we've got a problem.

Inconsistancies can make a game a big mess as players can't expect the outcome of the situation anymore. The original games were greatly flawed in that case, also the bahavior depends on the port as well.

Being too relaxed on the checks would also lead to these obscure levels as the "Out of the tune" one where a builder just connects to the ceiling. Yes, I would call that relaxed bahavior obscure.




The bomber hole not being enough: To reach the top we have to ensure 2 things:

- The builder not hitting his head before the ceiling.

- The builder being high enough to not hit his head/feet at the other side of the hole.

Due to the builder only getting height at a relative moderate rate results to just the bomber hole isn't big enough.

Other tricks might help the builder though to make him reach with only the 1 builder skill:

- Other lems coming right up to him just before he hits his head. They can then use a basher/miner.. to remove the ceiling and make him continue.

[ccexplore]

But reaching a thin ceiling with just 1 builder feels just totally wrong for me (also in the original game as you mentioned that Sunsoft level).

Unless Genesis have very odd builder behavior, or you're talking about some NeoLemmix behavior, I think you misinterpreted DragonLover's screenshot, though it is admittedly a little misleading without the proper explanation.

My understanding is that in the original mechanics, builder would basically bump against the thin ceiling and stop as many times* as the thickness in pixels.  So I believe multiple builders should have been used already in the screenshot before it gets to the point where the ceiling no longer interrupts the builder, since the ceiling there is 3 pixels thin.  Or you could make a hole in the ceiling first to avoid getting interrupted, until the builder gets high enough that the ceiling is below the lemming's head and no longer matters.

Basically the original mechanics use a one-pixel ceiling check, but the builder lays the brick first before getting turned around.  So each time you can get closer to the ceiling by one pixel.  Once the lemming's head is high enough to no longer be against a ceiling pixel (ie. the pixel immediately above the head starts to be air), as far as the game is concerned there is no ceiling, so the builder no longer gets interrupted at that point.  So the overall effect is that, provided you start with lemming's head completely below the thin ceiling, the builder would be interrupted as many times* as the ceiling thickness in pixels.

It would seem that NeoLemmix either added an extra check between the original's ceiling and floor checks, or possibly looked at more pixels for the floor check.  If it has merely increase the number of pixels (vertically) to check for ceiling, it would simply make you spend more builder, until you are finally high enough to be past the increased ceiling detection, after which you can build uninterrupted until the bridge connects.  Instead, it looks like you reach the uninterrupted phase, but then gets interrupted a second time, either due to an earlier floor check than original, or an extra "in between" check between floor and ceiling.

Honestly not having played NeoLemmix much I'm not aware of this change, and I can see why it feels odd coming from the world of original mechanics.  It's one thing if you let the ceiling continue to interrupt the lemming over and over until it's completely below the lemming's feet (rather than merely just below the top of head), so that you have to do it brick-by-brick all the way up until the gap to ceiling is completely closed.  But from what I think I'm reading from DragonsLover, it's instead more like you first get into brick-by-brick mode just a few times (maybe 1 or 2 times than original mechanics), then it transitions into uninterrupted building, but then before the build bridge fully connects (specifically 2 pixels before, apparently), it goes back into brick-by-brick mode again.

*technically you can sometimes do one less, because as I recall, the original mechanics skips the ceiling check upon the last (12th) brick laid

[IchoTolot]

As far as I can tell: You are right about there being more checkboxes.

One is the head-area and one is the feet-area and there is a few pixels of free space between them.

The feet area prevents those situations where a lem can build until a connection has been made between a thin ceiling and a bridge/floor closely under it, where the free middle space makes the interruptions a bit more forgiving in some scenarios, as a complete opposite of the tiny genesis checkbox would be very unforgiving.

I think the old genesis version simply misses the feet checkbox and creates these rather weird scenarios.

As I recall the Lix builder check is also a it more relaxed than NL and it lead to a slightly unexpected connection in a contest level: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3441.0

Simon's level there uses a builder connection that won't be possible in NL where exactly that feet check will prevent the intended solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You dig down a pillar and build back up from under the thin floor to create a holding pit. The connection is made in only 1 builder.

[nin10doadict]

The Genesis and SNES versions not checking near the feet seems to be the behavior I recall as well. It's easily seen in a level like King of the Castle. Try to force your way through the ceiling with builders. You'll bump three times, then go through the ceiling and the builder will not stop until he has fully connected the stairs with the ceiling, allowing the Lemmings to pass through.

The same scenario in NeoLemmix has the builder get rejected three times, then start to build freely. However, he will get stopped two pixels short of sealing the gap, and have to use two more builders to seal it fully.

In short: Forcing your way through thin ceilings with builders is more expensive in NeoLemmix.

[Simon]

This extended foot check has been in NL for very long. I remember how it confused me several times because no other Lemmings-like game checks like this. Still, one can develop a feeling for it.

It would be interesting to learn namida's original reason for these collision rules. In particular, if the lower belly became sensible to terrain, why is there still some leeway in the upper belly?

-- Simon

[namida]

I remember that at the time the builder checks were changed (at least for the most part), I was still in general working out the L1 bugs, and thus the L1 bugs topic was a major reference. Maybe the way things were classified on there lead to it?

I really don't remember for sure, besides that the end result felt right to me. I do vaguely recall that the absence of middle-height checks was to avoid frustration when building towards a rough-edged (but still more or less vertical) wall, but that's all.