Lemmings Forums

NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: DragonsLover on September 09, 2018, 04:17:41 AM

Title: Extended builder foot check
Post by: DragonsLover on September 09, 2018, 04:17:41 AM
Hey there everyone. Remember me? It's been a while.

I've just tried the NeoLemmix player with the "Extra Official Levels" set on the website. Great job about that! However, there's a few things here that bug me:

1. The animation of the particles from a bomber explosion is one frame too long, leaving coloured pixels at a weird positions at the end of the animation.
2. The builder behaviour is different when it has to build through a thin floor from below. Instead of continuing building to reach that floor, the builder stops when there's two extra platforms that should be built, which means you have to build two extra times in order to reach it. I don't know if it's an intended behaviour, but if it is, that makes the Genesis Sunsoft level 24 (Out, away from the tune) impossible to solve. Here's a screenshot to show you what I mean.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: Nepster on September 09, 2018, 08:12:50 AM
Welcome back! And yes, I remember you, though only from your levels in the Lemmix Database.

Regarding the issues:
1) Yeah, this is a known bug. But until now, we didn't know which frame was problematic. möbius at some point tried to figure it out, but didn't get to the end, and I never considered this important enough to spend a lot of time analyzing it. But now it should be rather easy to fix. Thanks.
2) This is intended and is one of the changes namida did very early on, when he started working on NeoLemmix. Why he made all of the builder terrain checks stricter (and this doesn't apply just to the top checks), you have to ask him. But I distinctly remember someone posting a fixed version of Sunsoft 24 to fix this exact issue. I will leave it to Nessy (or whoever feels responsible for this pack at the moment) to find this fixed level and upload it. ;P

PS: I moved the thread, as this is more of a bug report, so better fits here.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: namida on September 09, 2018, 08:59:36 AM
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2) This is intended and is one of the changes namida did very early on, when he started working on NeoLemmix. Why he made all of the builder terrain checks stricter (and this doesn't apply just to the top checks), you have to ask him. But I distinctly remember someone posting a fixed version of Sunsoft 24 to fix this exact issue. I will leave it to Nessy (or whoever feels responsible for this pack at the moment) to find this fixed level and upload it.

If I remember correctly, the NeoLemmix version of this level has an extra basher, which makes it solvable.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: IchoTolot on September 09, 2018, 09:06:23 AM
I didn't even noticed the thing with the bomber explosion. :lem-shocked:

But reaching a thin ceiling with just 1 builder feels just totally wrong for me (also in the original game as you mentioned that Sunsoft level).

Most ceilings are especially there to interrupt and turn builders and I include thin ones in there as well. A hole is needed to reach up in one builder or you have to invest more builders.

There should also be the note that quite a few checks and physics-behaviors are different from the original, as there were a lot of bugs/glitches/inconsistancies that needed to go. Most of them were builder related as I remember - more details should be in the "Bugs&Suggestions" board.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: DragonsLover on September 10, 2018, 03:51:42 AM
If I remember correctly, the NeoLemmix version of this level has an extra basher, which makes it solvable.

Indeed, I didn't notice the extra basher. But still, I'm finding it so-so about that change of gameplay rule. Why is it like that?

But reaching a thin ceiling with just 1 builder feels just totally wrong for me (also in the original game as you mentioned that Sunsoft level).

Most ceilings are especially there to interrupt and turn builders and I include thin ones in there as well. A hole is needed to reach up in one builder or you have to invest more builders.

I somehow agree with that, but even with the bomber used in that level to make a hole in that thin floor above, I could even not pass through it (see screenshot). I need to remove the extra thin floor next to it to allow the builder to close that gap. That's why I'm saying it's kind of ridiculous. Perhaps that a lot of you agree on that change, and I respect that, but from a standard Lemmings player, it makes it different and maybe even a bit more irritating. I assume there's a good reason and a good purpose for that change, I just don't totally agree with it.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: Flopsy on September 10, 2018, 08:09:22 AM
I have a video of me playing this level (Sunsoft 24) on video because it was put into the Lemmings Redux pack and I found it irritating myself. I did solve it in the end but it was after off screening it, the solve footage is about 17 mins into the video.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q5pinTt2DQw&index=18&list=PLXsuXbpwwJzEGVrKPTonDCw_hZA8N4zyt&t=0s

I think it was down to the Genesis version of Lemmings having lax builder terrain checks which allowed the builders to get through that obstacle in 2 builders and one bomber without the need for the added basher.
I think the extra basher being required mid builder required a lot of unnecessary timing, I get that it was required to make the original solution work but it made the level so much harder than it needed to be!

Also, welcome back DragonsLover :)
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: Nepster on September 10, 2018, 05:57:09 PM
I fixed the exploder sprite issue for the next release.

And yes, coming from the original mechanics, the new builder behavior takes a while to get used to. I remember being annoyed by it, when I first encountered it in namida's Lemmings Plus packs, but I can certainly say: After a while you will get used to it. ;)
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: DragonsLover on September 11, 2018, 12:31:20 AM
Also, welcome back DragonsLover :)

Thanks! :)

I fixed the exploder sprite issue for the next release.

Cool! 8-) Although it was not really about a sprite, but those flying pixels from the bomber explosion.

And yes, coming from the original mechanics, the new builder behavior takes a while to get used to. I remember being annoyed by it, when I first encountered it in namida's Lemmings Plus packs, but I can certainly say: After a while you will get used to it. ;)

I think so, yeah. I think I'll just deal with it. 8-) But that still doesn't answer my question: Why? Why is it like that?
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: Flopsy on September 11, 2018, 08:21:48 AM
Personally I never needed to get used to the harsher builder terrain checks, when I played NeoLemmix for the first time I was quite at home with all the physics pretty much.
Maybe it was down to the fact that I was mainly brought up on Win 95 Lemmings and SNES Lemmings, not sure how harsh the physics in those games were exactly.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: IchoTolot on September 11, 2018, 08:50:15 AM
I think so, yeah. I think I'll just deal with it. 8-) But that still doesn't answer my question: Why? Why is it like that?

Basic rule: When a builder hits his head or feet he stops and turns.

Making exceptions for thin ceilings doesn't make sense as they would be a inconsistancy to the general rule. When we have multiple ceiling types builders behave differently to we've got a problem.

Inconsistancies can make a game a big mess as players can't expect the outcome of the situation anymore. The original games were greatly flawed in that case, also the bahavior depends on the port as well.

Being too relaxed on the checks would also lead to these obscure levels as the "Out of the tune" one where a builder just connects to the ceiling. Yes, I would call that relaxed bahavior obscure.




The bomber hole not being enough: To reach the top we have to ensure 2 things:

- The builder not hitting his head before the ceiling.

- The builder being high enough to not hit his head/feet at the other side of the hole.

Due to the builder only getting height at a relative moderate rate results to just the bomber hole isn't big enough.

Other tricks might help the builder though to make him reach with only the 1 builder skill:

- Other lems coming right up to him just before he hits his head. They can then use a basher/miner.. to remove the ceiling and make him continue.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: ccexplore on September 12, 2018, 09:56:24 AM
But reaching a thin ceiling with just 1 builder feels just totally wrong for me (also in the original game as you mentioned that Sunsoft level).

Unless Genesis have very odd builder behavior, or you're talking about some NeoLemmix behavior, I think you misinterpreted DragonLover's screenshot, though it is admittedly a little misleading without the proper explanation.

My understanding is that in the original mechanics, builder would basically bump against the thin ceiling and stop as many times* as the thickness in pixels.  So I believe multiple builders should have been used already in the screenshot before it gets to the point where the ceiling no longer interrupts the builder, since the ceiling there is 3 pixels thin.  Or you could make a hole in the ceiling first to avoid getting interrupted, until the builder gets high enough that the ceiling is below the lemming's head and no longer matters.

Basically the original mechanics use a one-pixel ceiling check, but the builder lays the brick first before getting turned around.  So each time you can get closer to the ceiling by one pixel.  Once the lemming's head is high enough to no longer be against a ceiling pixel (ie. the pixel immediately above the head starts to be air), as far as the game is concerned there is no ceiling, so the builder no longer gets interrupted at that point.  So the overall effect is that, provided you start with lemming's head completely below the thin ceiling, the builder would be interrupted as many times* as the ceiling thickness in pixels.

It would seem that NeoLemmix either added an extra check between the original's ceiling and floor checks, or possibly looked at more pixels for the floor check.  If it has merely increase the number of pixels (vertically) to check for ceiling, it would simply make you spend more builder, until you are finally high enough to be past the increased ceiling detection, after which you can build uninterrupted until the bridge connects.  Instead, it looks like you reach the uninterrupted phase, but then gets interrupted a second time, either due to an earlier floor check than original, or an extra "in between" check between floor and ceiling.

Honestly not having played NeoLemmix much I'm not aware of this change, and I can see why it feels odd coming from the world of original mechanics.  It's one thing if you let the ceiling continue to interrupt the lemming over and over until it's completely below the lemming's feet (rather than merely just below the top of head), so that you have to do it brick-by-brick all the way up until the gap to ceiling is completely closed.  But from what I think I'm reading from DragonsLover, it's instead more like you first get into brick-by-brick mode just a few times (maybe 1 or 2 times than original mechanics), then it transitions into uninterrupted building, but then before the build bridge fully connects (specifically 2 pixels before, apparently), it goes back into brick-by-brick mode again.

*technically you can sometimes do one less, because as I recall, the original mechanics skips the ceiling check upon the last (12th) brick laid
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: IchoTolot on September 12, 2018, 01:13:16 PM
As far as I can tell: You are right about there being more checkboxes.

One is the head-area and one is the feet-area and there is a few pixels of free space between them.

The feet area prevents those situations where a lem can build until a connection has been made between a thin ceiling and a bridge/floor closely under it, where the free middle space makes the interruptions a bit more forgiving in some scenarios, as a complete opposite of the tiny genesis checkbox would be very unforgiving.

I think the old genesis version simply misses the feet checkbox and creates these rather weird scenarios.

As I recall the Lix builder check is also a it more relaxed than NL and it lead to a slightly unexpected connection in a contest level: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3441.0

Simon's level there uses a builder connection that won't be possible in NL where exactly that feet check will prevent the intended solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: nin10doadict on September 12, 2018, 07:24:29 PM
The Genesis and SNES versions not checking near the feet seems to be the behavior I recall as well. It's easily seen in a level like King of the Castle. Try to force your way through the ceiling with builders. You'll bump three times, then go through the ceiling and the builder will not stop until he has fully connected the stairs with the ceiling, allowing the Lemmings to pass through.

The same scenario in NeoLemmix has the builder get rejected three times, then start to build freely. However, he will get stopped two pixels short of sealing the gap, and have to use two more builders to seal it fully.

In short: Forcing your way through thin ceilings with builders is more expensive in NeoLemmix.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: Simon on September 12, 2018, 10:12:47 PM
This extended foot check has been in NL for very long. I remember how it confused me several times because no other Lemmings-like game checks like this. Still, one can develop a feeling for it.

It would be interesting to learn namida's original reason for these collision rules. In particular, if the lower belly became sensible to terrain, why is there still some leeway in the upper belly?

-- Simon
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: namida on September 13, 2018, 04:10:07 AM
I remember that at the time the builder checks were changed (at least for the most part), I was still in general working out the L1 bugs, and thus the L1 bugs topic was a major reference. Maybe the way things were classified on there lead to it?

I really don't remember for sure, besides that the end result felt right to me. I do vaguely recall that the absence of middle-height checks was to avoid frustration when building towards a rough-edged (but still more or less vertical) wall, but that's all.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix
Post by: ccexplore on September 13, 2018, 05:48:40 AM
The feet area prevents those situations where a lem can build until a connection has been made between a thin ceiling and a bridge/floor closely under it, where the free middle space makes the interruptions a bit more forgiving in some scenarios, as a complete opposite of the tiny genesis checkbox would be very unforgiving.

I think the old genesis version simply misses the feet checkbox and creates these rather weird scenarios.

Except the NeoLemmix change is little more than a very weak form of "prevention", it merely makes you spend 2 more builders than before, at least in the context of the situation depicted in DragonLover's screenshot.  You typically already have to spend a few builders as it is while you're still below the ceiling, since the ceiling is usually a few pixels thick.  Even Simon found the NeoLemmix behavior initially confusing and surprising, not the Genesis version:

I remember how it confused me several times because no other Lemmings-like game checks like this.

(emphasis added by me)

The feet check does exist in DOS/Genesis--it is just a smaller 2(width)x1(height) area at the feet of the lemming, so it only takes effect after the build bridge fully connects with the thin ceiling (you'd note that even in the original mechanics, the builder does end up getting turned around once finished).  It would seem NeoLemmix expanded that area vertically.  If there were truly no feet check at all, then it would not be possible for a builder to turn itself around on bumpy terrain or a slope, the builder would continue while obliviously moving into the interfering terrain.

Had the check been extended greatly such that you somehow stay fully in brick-by-brick mode in order to brute-force through a thin ceiling once builder gets close enough to it, then at least one can more convincingly argue "prevention".  Instead, right now you just get a halfhearted bit of extra resistance towards the end. :-\  How often in typical levels would one get into a situation anyway, where without some bit of initial bruce-forcing with builders, the thin ceiling is already so low that the lemming's head poked through it already?  Seems like there must've been a better setup to support the NL behavior than the one we have here.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: IchoTolot on September 13, 2018, 09:39:30 AM
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it merely makes you spend 2 more builders than before.....Had the check been extended greatly such that you somehow stay fully in brick-by-brick mode in order to brute-force through a thin ceiling once builder gets close enough to it, then at least one can more convincingly argue "prevention".  Instead, right now you just get a halfhearted bit of extra resistance towards the end. :-\

2 builders is a lot and I wouldn't call this halfhearted at all. 2 builders is quite a large investement in Lemmings and in the most cases it is more than enough. + These 2 builders are still succesful in removing the weird feeling of "suddlenly it connects" from the genesis case.
It won't prevent the 20 of everything levels to do this, but it will in nearly all cases prevent the restricted puzzles from having backroutes using this behavior.

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Even Simon found the NeoLemmix behavior initially confusing and surprising, not the Genesis version

The other way around now: I found the Genesis bahavior very confusing and I think that extra resistance is needed there. And that is also not just initially feeling so, but even after a time-period knowing about this.
Additionally Simon also admitted that my feeling about that the builder connect in the previously mentioned Lix level felt confusing and surprising to me is understandable as well. So this goes both ways.

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no other Lemmings-like game checks like this

I think the old games got it wrong then, but I must emphasise here that I don't think the old games are a good reference for physics at all as they are riddled with glitches. Also quite a few checks are different from any other version now anyway due to removing old bugs/glitches and inconsistancies.


Let me give you an example why the gap between the 2 checkboxes are a very good compromise between the weird genesis behavior and a very strict large checkbox without interruption:

Imagine you are building up to the first floor in "King of the castle" from the bottom left. You started a little bit too late for the strict check and stop quite a bit below the ledge. With the 2 seperated checkboxes it will still end you up close to the ledge and it is possible to recover because of the little bit of leeway you have and the feet-check still prevents the way-too late attempts. So it provides a bit of extra leeway here and avoids frustration when building towards a rough-edged (but still more or less vertical) wall as namida stated.
So I would call namida's instinct to be correct here as it provides a compromise between weird genesis ceiling connections and the way too strict brick-by-brick mode.

Yes it takes a bit to adjust coming from the old games, but I think it is for the better as I agree with namida's instinct here and I would even lean more to the stricter side than the genesis side.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2018, 11:03:27 AM
I'm going to take the other side, then. A builder stopping once when his head hits a 1-pixel platform, and the next builder continuing until the bridge connects, is no weirder than lemmings being able to walk through 1-pixel gaps, or step up from point (x,y) to point (x+1, y+5) when all surrounding pixels are wall. I accept that this behaviour may enable backroutes. It can also enable intended solutions -- and NL forcing an extra builder (or other skill, as in Sunsoft 24) to be added to the skillset may enable backroutes elsewhere.

If there were to be a vote on it, I'd definitely vote for the original games' behaviour here. But -- to answer DragonsLover's question about why it's this way -- namida decided it in the period when NL was his solo effort, before asking the forum for their opinions on gameplay mechanics was something that was ever done. That's not a criticism of namida; it's just a piece of forum history. It's probably not worth considering changing the behaviour now, as there are a large number of existing levels that could be affected in unpredictable ways.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: IchoTolot on September 13, 2018, 11:56:34 AM
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A builder stopping once when his head hits a 1-pixel platform, and the next builder continuing until the bridge connects, is no weirder than lemmings being able to walk through 1-pixel gaps, or step up from point (x,y) to point (x+1, y+5) when all surrounding pixels are wall.

I would call a step up way more resonable than the ceiling behavior for example:

- The step up is discovered natutally with lemmings walking up through builder-bridges. The ceiling thing is mostly discovered by accident with players making big eyes.

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It can also enable intended solutions -- and NL forcing an extra builder (or other skill, as in Sunsoft 24) to be added to the skillset may enable backroutes elsewhere.

This will only count for the original levels as all other content was created with NL mechanics in mind and I think we established already that the physics engine doesn't need to statisfy every single original level (like timed bombers for example). If players want the 1:1 original feeling Lemmix and DOSBOX are here for that.
Also I would call the single original levels here not really worth it, as I think our content now is way more superior.

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It's probably not worth considering changing the behaviour now, as there are a large number of existing levels that could be affected in unpredictable ways.

Yes, a change of basic builder behavior would be devastating for the already established pack culture. Even more as the final result is unpredictable in contrast to things like the big deadly-ceiling change where you saw where to need to step in.
That's why I would say here Lemmix and DOSBOX is the right way to go for people who prefer the 100% authentic original experience with all it's quirks.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2018, 12:08:18 PM
- The step up is discovered natutally with lemmings walking up through builder-bridges. The ceiling thing is mostly discovered by accident with players making big eyes.

Unsupported assertion. As I've stated, I didn't find it surprising, and several other responses in this topic have said the same.

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This will only count for the original levels as all other content was created with NL mechanics in mind

We have to keep NL mechanics in mind while making NL levels, but that doesn't mean we have to embrace them. Often the mechanics present difficulties in level design that have to be worked around.

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Yes, a change of basic builder behavior would be devastating for the already established pack culture. Even more as the final result is unpredictable in contrast to things like the big deadly-ceiling change where you saw where to need to step in.
That's why I would say here Lemmix and DOSBOX is the right way to go for people who prefer the 100% authentic original experience with all it's quirks.

Of course, I never said anything about "preferring the 100% original experience". Do have fun beating up your straw man.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: IchoTolot on September 13, 2018, 12:59:23 PM
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Unsupported assertion. As I've stated, I didn't find it surprising, and several other responses in this topic have said the same.

In this topic yes, but just take a look at the contest level I referred to, a few players didn't solve it exactly because of this unsuspected behavior. Flopsy for example as I recall.

+ I am here as a person who made big eyes. I never even noticed that in the original games as I did not had a Genesis and therefore didn't need the trick. I even think that Sunsoft level is the only one requiring it.

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We have to keep NL mechanics in mind while making NL levels, but that doesn't mean we have to embrace them. Often the mechanics present difficulties in level design that have to be worked around.

Still this doesn't invalidate my argument that it will only allow for intended original Lemmings 1 solutions out of the current content. Of course you can always come up with new levels that uses this behavior, but that counts for everything.
Also new levels requiring that behavior can still be realised in Lix so it's not that there is anything blocking them from becoming reality at all and new Lix content is always a good thing to have. :)
Every set of mechanics present advantages and difficulties, with often advatages bring certain disadvantages with them.

I also don't embrace everything, I was happy to see gimmicks and radiation culled and I was very grateful for the physics clean up back in the days even if that meant a ton of maintenance work for me. But I really think the relaxed genesis builder check is a bad thing to have sry.

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Of course, I never said anything about "preferring the 100% original experience". Do have fun beating up your straw man.

And I did not say otherwise there. I was just saying that if someone wants that experience without any changes made to them the person can get it. I made no assumptions about you.

I won't and don't want to persuade you. Persuading people is nearly impossible in most cases. I just want to show the other side of the coin here to people used to the other behavior, even if that results again to me being out on the shooting range attacked from all sides here.

At least we can agree in the point that a change now won't be worth it. :)
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: Proxima on September 13, 2018, 02:41:27 PM
Still this doesn't invalidate my argument that it will only allow for intended original Lemmings 1 solutions out of the current content. Of course you can always come up with new levels that uses this behavior, but that counts for everything.

But my point is that the imagination isn't constrained by mechanics in the same way that actual gameplay is. I don't have your copious experience of designing Lemmings / NL levels, but certain in Repton and DROD, again and again I've had the experience of coming up with an interesting level concept, trying to implement it, and realising that the mechanics don't allow it to work, or would force me to accept unintended solutions.

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And I did not say otherwise there. I was just saying that if someone wants that experience without any changes made to them the person can get it. I made no assumptions about you.
Okay, then I'm sorry I misunderstood what you were saying. It felt like you were lumping me together with people who want the original experience, since otherwise I'm not sure what the point is of bringing them into this discussion at all.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: IchoTolot on September 13, 2018, 02:54:45 PM
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But my point is that the imagination isn't constrained by mechanics in the same way that actual gameplay is. I don't have your copious experience of designing Lemmings / NL levels, but certain in Repton and DROD, again and again I've had the experience of coming up with an interesting level concept, trying to implement it, and realising that the mechanics don't allow it to work, or would force me to accept unintended solutions.

That's totally true. Of course the imagination is a much greater playing field than the possible game mechanics and you will need to try out what is possible and what's not possible in the engine of your choice.
Title: Re: Questions regarding NeoLemmix (extended builder foot check)
Post by: nin10doadict on September 13, 2018, 06:29:42 PM
I'm in the camp that likes the stricter builder check in NeoLemmix the way it is. Mainly because it is so rarely a thing that needs to be worried about. Trying to force your way through a thin ceiling with builders alone is very rarely the correct solution, so changing the behavior seems needless.

You could probably still design a level in NeoLemmix that forces going through a ceiling with builders only. You'd have to take extra care that the additional builders you would need don't cause a backroute somewhere, however. Or you could just fill up the remaining gap with a stacker, or use some other skill to punch through the ceiling... There's lots of ways to work with the different mechanics. As Icho said, we have to try things out and learn how to design cool levels around what we have. I think as a community there has been a lot of success in this regard. :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Extended builder foot check
Post by: ccexplore on September 16, 2018, 08:59:16 AM
I got busy IRL last few days to reply, but basically like Proxima said in one of his replies, I feel like when you already have to accept Lemmings walking through 1-pixel gaps, it would actually be pretty logical then to also accept and even expect builders having weak collision detection that only involves the very top of head and very bottom of feet.

I think I kind of get how most people would expect stronger collision detections because in most video games, the collision detection is usually not so weak like in Lemmings.  (And of course, in those same games, you wouldn't expect to be able to squeeze and walk through 1-pixel gaps either.)  Yet the NL change in that regard is undercut by the compromise where apparently, if you truly make it so that the entire builder lemming is a collision target, it is then apparently "too strong" and gets in the way when building towards walls that aren't perfectly evenly vertical.  So instead you end up with this weak addition just around the feet, which really only seems suited to address specifically this "King of Castle" case where the thin ceiling is not present on one side (so the builder doesn't first get interrupted already by ceiling check), and some people want the builder to stop at least once if it first started colliding with the ceiling/floor at body-level rather than head-level.  That is not exactly rare but also not all that common a setup.

Of course, this is all just discussion at this point.  There is no point to changing a behavior that has became the NL standard for such a long time now, especially one that is already preferred by many.
Title: Re: Extended builder foot check
Post by: DragonsLover on October 20, 2018, 09:23:15 AM
Hey! I'm back!

That was a nice discussion. And indeed, there's nothing to be changed. Like I said, I'm gonna deal with it and play with that behavior.

However, the bomber pixels bug is still there. :( At the 52th frame after the explosion sprite from a bomber (where the pixels are first shown (counted as frame 1)), the glitchy pixels are visible. I've played version v12.3.1.
Title: Re: Extended builder foot check
Post by: IchoTolot on October 20, 2018, 10:57:05 AM
The new update wasn't released yet. So the change still needs to be implemented.
Title: Re: Extended builder foot check
Post by: namida on October 21, 2018, 12:02:31 AM
Minor cosmetic issues tend to be low-priority, and only get fixed next time there's an update anyway. Urgent releases only tend to be made for major physics bugs or game crashes.
Title: Re: Extended builder foot check
Post by: DragonsLover on October 21, 2018, 11:54:26 PM
Alright :thumbsup:
Title: Re: Extended builder foot check
Post by: Nepster on October 22, 2018, 03:33:00 PM
Please check out the version 12.4., that I released yesterday. The exploder graphics bug should be fixed in there. :)