Author Topic: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread  (Read 20421 times)

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #45 on: May 07, 2017, 11:21:01 am »
L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.

Well, technically there kind of is (and made easier with DOSBox), just that it's probably not intended and more to the point, you can't go backwards which is kind of the important part.  (Also you can't use that method during fanning, but maybe that's a blessing since I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a level that requires ultra-precise fanning.)

Offline grams88

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #46 on: May 08, 2017, 11:54:45 pm »
I'll need to give those levels a try, those look very nice and would bring back memories of playing the old lemmings tribes :thumbsup:. I bet those will be a lot harder than the old tribes levels.

Offline mobius

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2017, 12:01:33 am »
L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.

Well, technically there kind of is (and made easier with DOSBox), just that it's probably not intended and more to the point, you can't go backwards which is kind of the important part.  (Also you can't use that method during fanning, but maybe that's a blessing since I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a level that requires ultra-precise fanning.)

As someone new to fanning; it's ultra annoying even as however non-precise it currently is.
"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #48 on: May 11, 2017, 10:52:58 pm »
Attached the first post you will find version 9, as well as version 2 of Neoclassic! This should be the last update before the next tribe, which might take a small while to come out. Two things of note here:
1) I have decided to get rid of bad levels, so some levels will no longer be updated until I have thought up a replacement for them, so no need to give feedback for those.
2) While it was cute for the Classic Tribe to always have at least one of each skill so the full skill panel was always present, to fix a backroute I had to get rid of a skill in one of the levels, so I've decided to just wipe pointless skills from each classic level. This does not mean all skills used in the solution have gone, just those that didn't even serve to be a red herring.

v09 changelog:
  • Beach 4 Cross Shore Winds - Level removed. Replaced with new level, What a Scoop!
  • Cave 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Moved decoration to fix backroute.
  • Cave 3 Facing Extinction - Slightly lower exit platform to reduce precision.
  • Cave 7 The Dactyl of Terror - Removed misleading decoration and water now goes to screen edge.
  • Cave 8 Dino Might - Stomper added, builder removed, trapdoor moved, water area extended further to the right, release rate substantially increased.
  • Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Backroute fix by making much bigger gap in middle of level + release rate tweaks for easier crowd control.
  • Classic 1 Needs No Intro - Removed unnecessary skills.
  • Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Removed unnecessary skills, steel to fix backroute.
  • Classic 3 Hangman - Removed unnecessary skills, added builder + minor terrain tweak to make execution easier.
  • Classic 4 Escort Mission - Removed unnecessary skills, steel to fix backroute, removed need for builder.
  • Classic 5 Overflow - Removed unnecessary skills, moved trapdoor, minor tweaks to make easier execution and make digging tools use more obvious.
  • Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Removed steel and water pit to remove backroute.
  • Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Removed unnecessary skills, added steel to fix backroute.
  • Classic 9 Spiral Staircase - Removed unnecessary skills, lowered height of platforms by 1 grid space and made some other general adjustments to accomodate this, added more time to clock. It seems that worries about backroute as a result of lowering height of platforms is only doable in theory in L2, in practice the blocker fields are so huge it is basically impossible to pull off, but upped release rate to try and prevent backroute that would now be possible if you can pull it off. Due to higher lemming step height in Neolemmix, NeoClassic has had further small tweaks to platform height.
  • Classic 10 The Water Tower - Removed unnecessary skills, increased height of bottom of steel next to trapdoor.
  • Sports 4 Give it the Run Around - Level removed. Replaced with new level, Rise to the Challenge
  • Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Less pole vaulter precision + backroute fix + new cute and quicker opening sequence.

Levels destined for the bin in a future update:
  • Cave 5 Flappy Lem
  • Classic 8 The Lowlands
  • Egypt 4 Carpet Race
  • Space 6 Hull Breach
« Last Edit: May 11, 2017, 10:58:58 pm by kieranmillar »

Offline Simon

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #49 on: May 12, 2017, 02:08:32 am »
Excellent update!

Solved all Classic and Cavelem that differ between v8 and v9. Videos: Mount Molehill (11 MB), All other Classic/Cavelem (280 MB)


Not 100 % sure why you'd like to cut The Lowlands. My rage came largely from being tired and from bad assignments. Maybe you feel like the level is too obvious and long?

Hangman is the perfect onescreener, I like this level so much. The next-most favorites are Richard's Cliff, Water Tower, Facing Extinction, Stuck In, Descent of Lemming.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: May 12, 2017, 02:29:35 pm by Simon »

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #50 on: May 12, 2017, 08:08:45 pm »
Thanks Simon, videos are always helpful :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
I want to cut The Lowlands not because it made anybody rage, but because it was fundamentally broken in a way I no longer wanted to try and solve, and the backroute fixes I'd already applied left me unhappy enough with the level that I think I can do the same concept in a better way.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #51 on: May 12, 2017, 09:14:46 pm »
Quote
There are always tough decisions to be made about how much red herrings are OK in terms of letting people go really far down the path of something that just barely but doesn't quite work. Is it better to let people do that, or try to make it quicker to come to the conclusion that it is wrong?

Yeah, definitely a tricky balance.  I do think it probably becomes a problem once the herring gets to a point where it is falsely convincing the player that they just need to tweak the execution details more to make the herring work.  This is particularly problematic as Lemmings 2 skills open up to much more tweaking than the classic skills, for example think the precise aim of a projectile skill or the precise fanning of a fanning skill, or the precise flinging provided by a nearby explosion.  It's one thing to mislead the player into a simpler almost-solution that once played out a few times with a few variations, the player can be reasonably confident that it won't work out and it's time to consider something more different.  It's another if it can easily rathole the player into sticking with the herring far longer than they should, thinking it's just a matter of precision/tweaking.

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #52 on: May 12, 2017, 10:14:48 pm »
Played through V9.

Beach (click to show/hide)
Cave (click to show/hide)
Classic (click to show/hide)
Sport (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
« Reply #53 on: May 13, 2017, 04:46:21 pm »
Thanks Nepster.
Beach (click to show/hide)

Cave (click to show/hide)

Classic (click to show/hide)

Sports (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
« Reply #54 on: May 17, 2017, 09:38:19 pm »
It's time for another update! NeoClassic is also updated, as always the most recent files can be found in attached to the opening post.

v10 changelog:

  • New Tribe: Medieval Tribe!
  • Cavelems 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Removed some terrain to fix backroute.
  • Cavelems 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Minor terrain tweaks to fix backroute.
  • Classic 4 Escort Mission and Classic 8 The Lowlands swapped positions.
  • New level: Classic 4 Humble Bundle replaces The Lowlands.
  • Classic 5 Overflow - Major revisions, skill changes, level is back to being Lose 1.
  • Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - More steel, one less builder, some other decorative tweaks. NOTE: I am aware of a backroute exclusive to NeoClassic due to gameplay mechanics differences.
  • Classic 8 Escort Mission - Backroute fixed with lots of steel.
  • Sports 6 The Home Stretch and Sports 9 Uphill Obstacle Course swapped positions.
  • Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Extended gap and added second platformer to fix backroute.
  • Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Minor steel addition to fix backroute.
  • Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Terrain tweaks + 2 less shimmiers + release rate a smidgen higher.
  • Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Changed bottom-right corner of level. Added shimmier skill.

Levels destined for the bin:
  • Cave 5 Flappy Lem
  • Egypt 4 Carpet Race
  • Space 6 Hull Breach

Offline Simon

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
« Reply #55 on: May 18, 2017, 10:34:18 am »
geoo and I blind-raced Medieval on Sunday, March 21. The vods remain availabe for 14 days: Simon's vod geoo's vod

-- Simon
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 11:47:19 pm by Simon »

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
« Reply #56 on: May 18, 2017, 10:32:42 pm »
Medieval Tribe (click to show/hide)
Updated levels (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
« Reply #57 on: May 19, 2017, 08:06:40 pm »
Thanks as always Nepster! Your thorough and speedy feedback has already helped this pack so immensely, I really appreciate all of your updates! I'll be looking to push another version out before Sunday's stream. If not today, then tomorrow.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 09:11:22 pm by kieranmillar »

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
« Reply #58 on: May 20, 2017, 10:19:31 pm »
Version 11 is attached to the opening post. I have not updated NeoClassic yet, as it's a pain to update and seems all feedback on the Classic Tribe so far has been from playing it in L2 anyway (but that's good as I'm primarily interested in what it's like to play in L2).


v11 changelog:

  • Classic 4 Humble Bundle replaced with A Tight Squeeze, and moved to position 8, all levels inbetween moved down.
  • Classic 7 (was 8) Escort Mission - Level is now Lose 3, digger replaced with exploder, added steel in numerous places.
  • Classic 10 The Water Tower - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
  • Egypt 4 Carpet Race replaced with new level, A Sticky Situation, and moved to position 9, all levels inbetween moved down.
  • Medieval 3 Ramp It Up replaced with new level, Ye Olde Cavern, and swapped position with Medieval 4 Roll With It.
  • Medieval 3 (was 4) Roll With It - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
  • Medieval 5 Laying the Foundations - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
  • Medieval 8 Castle Invaders - Removed Builder, added Archer and Shimmier. Removed wooden overhang.
  • Medieval 9 Crate Expectations - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
  • Medieval 10 Medi-Upheaval - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
  • Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
  • Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
  • Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Various tweaks to fix backroutes.

Levels destined for the bin:

  • Cave 5 Flappy Lem
  • Space 6 Hull Breach

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
« Reply #59 on: May 25, 2017, 11:14:48 am »
Played through the new stuff from v11 (and v9 and v10 as I hadn't checked out all of that yet), except for Classic.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I think by now I know more or less the intended solutions to Space, Cave and Beach, and most of Egypt.
Lifeguard to the Rescue and especially Take the Plunge are really cool (I don't think I commented on them before).

I also found another glitch: When a swimmer gets out of the water pit, you can assign a builder such that it starts building one pixel above the ground, i.e. floating in mid-air.