Author Topic: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread  (Read 18041 times)

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Offline exit

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #15 on: April 24, 2017, 11:54:36 pm »
Screenshots now attached. :-[
(To previous post)
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 12:07:24 am by exit »

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #16 on: April 25, 2017, 06:31:42 am »
Thanks. The good news is, we are getting much closer to the intended solution in some cases.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #17 on: April 25, 2017, 05:44:59 pm »
Quote
I didn't start the screen up at the top because the top trapdoor opens at stun height, so the sound of the lemmings getting stunned was meant to be a clue that they were up there in case no-one scrolled up that high
Problem with this: The lemmings of the tribes yelp at any occation they can think of (and it feels they do even without having any cause :P). This got so annoying that I turned all sound off after the first two tries on Beach 1...

I solved the next two tribes, Sports and Egypt, both with 60/60. The Egypt levels were very good 8-), but I think I backrouted most of Sport :-[.

Detailed comments on Egypt (click to show/hide)

Detailed comments on Sport (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #18 on: April 25, 2017, 07:57:20 pm »
Thanks again for the screenshots and for figuring out some tricky (and sometimes not so tricky :-[ ) backroutes. Glad to see that Egypt is not as broken as the other two tribes, but a bit sad at the sheer number of Sports backroutes. :(

Egyptian
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Sports
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #19 on: April 25, 2017, 08:12:39 pm »

Online Simon

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2017, 08:43:23 pm »
Thanks for the replies for the screenshots earlier!

Sports 1-10 on stream, and some Beach

With geoo and, later, Icho in voicechat. I gave commentary on what I consider intended and what I consider backroutes. geoo has taken screenshots of his solutions, he'll post them eventually.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: April 25, 2017, 09:24:05 pm by Simon »

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2017, 09:23:40 pm »
A video? Amazing! :lem-mindblown: Will definitely watch it all! :D Thanks!

The next update is gonna be huge at this rate. I have changes for 18 levels lined up so far. I cannot believe how many backroutes there are, you are all excellent at finding these. Perhaps a clear sign that I haven't played enough Lemmings?

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #22 on: April 25, 2017, 09:27:19 pm »
I solved the first 5 Beach levels from version 3, and then a few more from version 4, and all of the sports level from the race with Simon. Many Beach levels were a bit fiddly, and I suspect many Sports solutions are backroutes, though there were some gems with elegant solutions and clean execution. I'm attaching screenshots and a few comments.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #23 on: April 25, 2017, 09:51:03 pm »
I cannot believe how many backroutes there are, you are all excellent at finding these. Perhaps a clear sign that I haven't played enough Lemmings?

Nah, it's often just a natural matter of tunnel vision.  As many people here can attest to, the level author is usually the worst at finding backroutes to their own levels, simply because they already have a particular vision on what the solution is "supposed to be", so it becomes that much easier to overlook something you never considered.  Whereas the player has no preconceptions and will try lots of things on their path to a working solution, and so will be more likely to stumble upon something unexpected by the author.  I also think Lemmings 2 with its more complex game physics will make it more likely that some skills or behaviors can be used in ways you never thought of.

It is also fair to say that there are some very good players on this forum. 8-)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #24 on: April 26, 2017, 06:47:25 pm »
Thank you all so much for the video and screenshots and feedback. Too many comments at once to respond individually to, but version 5 has been released! I call this the Oh God Everything Is Broken™ update. I've decided to try a less forgiving version of Beach 6 Hang Sixty to try and discourage the fiddly solution people had been trying. Ultimately I think it's slower than the intended solution quite significantly, and so should be an obvious fail now, which will hopefully stop people trying to spend so long on making things hard on themselves and getting frustrated. Hopefully.

Apologies for being a bit vague on some of these, I try to avoid giving things away in the release notes if I think it might be spoilers for someone. Trying not to draw attention to things in some cases.

Oh, I should mention quickly that if I understand geoo's Sports 9 solution then it is 100% bang-on intended. Well done!

v05 changelog:

  • Beach 3 Diving Board - Wider water pool. Extra builder skill.
  • Beach 5 Turn the Tide - Moved platform to the left, also level is a bit taller. Terrain altered to make crowd assigning easier.
  • Beach 6 Hang Sixty - Landscape around beercan and bottom of screen changed. 3rd builder brought back.
  • Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Major revisions. Sand pourer replaced with surfer as a result.
  • Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Major revisions. Note: the exit has moved slightly too.
  • Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Major revisions, also now one less sand pourer.
  • Beach 10 Toasted Clam Sand-wiches - More steel, and large decorative sandcastle moved.
  • Egypt 4 Carpet Race - Backroute fix.
  • Egypt 5 Smooth Operators - Backroute fix? Probably.
  • Egypt 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes - Crawling glitch fixed, hopefully!
  • Sports 1 Introducing: Sports - Never thought I'd have to fix an intro level, but here we are!
  • Sports 2 Double-back on Yourself - A number of backroute fixes.
  • Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - More steel and minor revisions. Most importantly, fixed the typo in the name!
  • Sports 4 Nice Catch! - Major revisions. Note: Extra platformer skill added.
  • Sports 5 Give it the Run Around - Major revisions.
  • Sports 6 Tour De Farce - Major Revisions.
  • Sports 7 The Home Stretch - Backroute fixes.
  • Sports 8 Pole Position - Major revisions, quality of life changes, and reduction in skills!
  • Sports 9 Uphill Obstacle Course - Backroute fix, hopefully fixed random shimmier fail.
  • Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Tennis ball traps are worthless. In related news, backroute and crawler glitches fixed.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2017, 08:32:33 pm by kieranmillar »

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #25 on: April 26, 2017, 09:24:40 pm »
Today I solved the Space tribe. I still used V0.4, but according to your changelog, it shouldn't matter. I am not a fan of jetpacks, bazookas or mortars, so overall I preferred other tribes, but at least my solutions don't look too much like backroutes.

Detailed comments on Space (click to show/hide)

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #26 on: April 26, 2017, 11:27:24 pm »
Thanks Nepster for your comments as always. A couple of solutions there are the right idea, but many are not quite right. I've made some fixes to the parts of your solutions that I consider backroutes. I don't want to push out too many rapid-fire updates, but given nobody has downloaded version 5 yet, I may as well upload another version, it's not like I'm requiring people to just keep applying updates constantly.

v06 changelog:

  • Space 1 Introducing: Space - Backroute fix.
  • Space 2 Anti-Gravity - Added steel to fix backroute.
  • Space 3 Blast Chamber - Mirrored the level!
  • Space 4 Gravity Chamber - Backroute fix.
  • Space 6 Satellite Junk - Minor platform move to fix minor backroute.
  • Space 8 Space Rescue - Trap replaced with big hole. The traps in this game are so useless.
  • Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Removed wall by teleporter, replaced with useless trap.
  • Space 10 Alternate Dimension - Backroute fix.

Response to your comments:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #27 on: April 29, 2017, 11:37:47 am »
I played the updated levels. For some I think I got the intended solution, some others haven't improved at all.

Beach (click to show/hide)
Egypt (click to show/hide)
Space (click to show/hide)
Sport (click to show/hide)

Edit: Now with attachment.

Offline kieranmillar

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #28 on: April 29, 2017, 05:18:21 pm »
Thanks again Nepster. I will probably hold off on the next version until there's another Tribe to play. Some of your backroutes make me sad, but some make me happy. I'm willing to allow interesting and fun backroutes in some cases, but in the case of Sports 3 (and I know people really liked that backroute) I'm adamant that while I have a tribe with the shimmier that I get this one to be the intended. Besides I can reuse the nice backroute for another level in another tribe.

Actually it looks like some of you are really struggling with Sports 3, so here are some important features of shimmiers incase you're all struggling because you don't understand how they work:
Shimmier facts (click to show/hide)

Comments to your comments:
Beach (click to show/hide)
Egypt (click to show/hide)
Space (click to show/hide)
Sports (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 29, 2017, 06:53:35 pm by kieranmillar »

Offline geoo

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Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
« Reply #29 on: April 29, 2017, 09:37:06 pm »
Simon and I went through the space levels today (no video recording, we were working together on some of the levels). My comments and screenshots are below. I had a really good time playing these, very interesting levels.
Tomorrow (Sunday, April 30) we're planning to go through the Egypt levels, and videostream that again. If you want to watch, we'd start 18:00 UTC, though if that doesn't work for you we can also stream earlier or later. http://twitch.tv/simonnaar

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: April 30, 2017, 06:21:50 am by Simon »