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Other Lemmings Projects => Levels for other engines => Topic started by: kieranmillar on April 17, 2017, 07:34:07 AM

Title: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 Development Thread
Post by: kieranmillar on April 17, 2017, 07:34:07 AM

This pack has been released, please download from the release thread: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3655.0

Welcome to my Lemmings 2 : The Tribes level pack, Quest From Kieran 2!

The gimmick of this pack is that each of the tribes has its own set of 8 thematically-appropriate skills, and their levels use only those skills. I hope this means each tribe not only looks different, but plays differently too!

Any feedback is greatly appreciated. As the author it can be hard to spot when levels are broken, or completely misjudge the perceived difficulty of a level so the ordering might be totally out of whack. Unfortunately there's no replay feature, but if you think you've broken a level a description of how you solved it should be all I need.

Note that this is a "save everyone" pack. Every level has 100% save requirement for gold, except for the Classic Tribe, where the number you are allowed to lose and still get gold is stated in the title for each of their levels.

Apologies that some levels might need some pixel perfect skill use. I've tried to go to lengths to avoid it where possible, but with Lemmings 2's 8x16 grid, there's only so much you can do with terrain placement.

An enormous thank you for GuyPerfect's lgl2 and geoo's L2suite. Two amazing tools that made all of this possible.

Where is Quest From Kieran 1?
It's in development, I started fiddling around with the Neolemmix editor but then had ideas for Lemmings 2 and I'm not one to squander a creative splurge, so it's on the backburner until the ideas stop coming for Lemmings 2.

Meet the Tribes!

Beach
Like, we're totally gonna get you that talisman piece from the clams that stole it dude, but, like, there's this totally sick bunch of waves coming and I'm, like, totally there man! Surf's up dude!

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/beach.png)
Level 7: Lifeguard to the Rescue

Cavelems
10,000 years ago lemmingkind first roamed the world and survived using primitive tools. Today those lemmings are... clearly dead, I mean come on man, it was 10,000 years ago! However their memory lives on with a bunch of ironic hipsters who forgo modern technology because it's way too mainstream. But the joke's on them, now they have to deliver the talisman and have to travel by foot. Suckers!

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/cavelems.png)
Level 8: Dino Might

Circus
Roll Up! Roll Up! Come and see the greatest show on Lemming Island! Watch as the incredible SuperLem takes on the trapeze, without a safety net... or a trapeze! Come see our amazing laser display! And watch with amazement as sixty of our finest clowns try to deliver the talisman piece, with hilarious consequences!

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/circus.png)
Level 4: Teeny-Weeny Houdini

Classic
Nobody understands these guys. Everyone else has moved on and developed new tricks, as well as a better social understanding that deaths are often unnecessary, yet this tribe continues to do the same old stuff with the same old tricks over and over again. Legend has it that they've conquered thousands and thousands of landscapes and yet they keep on going, and somehow despite the massive losses there are just so many of them that they never go extinct. Lets hope there's still some of them left by the time they deliver their talisman piece.

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/classic.png)
Level 5: Overflow

Egyptian
Egyptian lore says that one of the gods buried the talisman piece alongside them, but there are so many gods, I guess we'll just have to check every tomb! The Egyptians love their pots, that's why this tribe bought along a whole bunch of them as their only construction skills! Historians are keen to point out that the magic carpet is actually Arabian, and not Egyptian, but the Arabian tribe don't care, they were made extinct a thousand years ago after one of them got drunk and triggered the armageddon.

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/egyptian.png)
Level 3: The Climber's Curse

Highland
After correctly predicting the prophecy of the Darkness befalling Lem Island, the Highland Tribe felt a bit upset that they weren't getting quite the level of thanks they'd hoped for. So Jimmy McLemming held an independence referendum for the Highland Tribe to become their own sovereign group. Unfortunately it quickly occurred to them that they were doomed without the other talisman pieces and so the referendum failed. Dejected and defeated, Jimmy McLemming spent the rest of his days drowning his sorrows with cheap bottles of scotch whiskey, so nothing different to usual really.

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/highland.png)
Level 7: Scaling Lem Nevis

Medieval
The Medieval Tribe prides itself as defender of the realm. Using the swordsmanship, bowmanship and chivalry passed down from generation to generation, Lemming island is safe from all intruders! So who better to deliver the King's talisman piece safely to the ark than 60 of his finest knights? (Actually don't tell them, but the orbital laser satellites launched years ago by the Space Tribe are significantly more effective at defending the realm).

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/medieval.png)
Level 5: Ye Olde Cavern

Outdoor
At last, a tribe that takes place outdoors, if you ignore Beach, Highland, Medieval, Polar, Shadow and Space! And probably Sports too? Is that inside a stadium or in some nightmarish green hellscape dimension? Anyway, don't let the Outdoor Tribe fool you, they love to talk about how they have conquered the great outdoors and live off the land but in reality they've never ventured further than their back garden.

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/outdoor.png)
Level 7: Rocky's Horror Show

Polar
Why would anybody live in the bitterly cold, frigid Northern mountain range of Lemming Island? Easy, it's because there is enormous amounts of oil. And in the process of extracting it all, this tribe has become the experts of excavation and building tall structures. Now you'd think that this meant that when it came time to deliver their talisman piece, they'd be over in a flash using some motorised technology, but no, they keep trying to stick to tradition and deliver it by ski-courier, which would be fine, if the terrible skier physics meant they didn't constantly get in accidents and need to be rescued...

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/polar.png)
Level 5: Living Life on the Edge

Shadow
The masters of stealth, nobody knows where the Shadow Tribe are at any given moment. Which is quite surprising really, given the bright yellow balloons and loud explosions that follow them wherever they go. Maybe it's because everyone else is asleep when they travel during the dead of night. I guess you'll just have to hope that they deliver the talisman piece in time.

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/shadow.png)
Level 4: Flee the Nest

Space
Bad news. In order to fund their space adventures the Space tribe sold off their talisman piece to the weasels years ago. It looks like there's only one solution: buy it back blast off on a risky adventure to the nearest wormhole and pass through it to an alternate dimension where they still own the talisman piece. What could possibly go wrong?

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/space.png)
Level 3: Blast Chamber

Sports
The Sports tribe actually already have the talisman piece to hand, but they've offered it up as first prize to a tournament, so now they have to go win it! Sure, you could argue that the current need for the talisman is more important and could just swap the prize out for something else, but seriously, that is not how sports work! Disclaimer: I have no idea how sports work.

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/sports.png)
Level 5: Uphill Obstacle Course

How to Install
Back up your current Lemmings 2 LEVELS folder, then extract the contents of the zip into there, overwriting the existing files.

How to run Lemmings 2 in DOSBox (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3273)

A Quick Lemmings 2 Refresher

• You have to manually save the game from the main menu. There's no autosave!
• You want to run l2-fix.exe, not l2.exe
• Useful keyboard shrotcuts:
  
  • ESC: Quick Restart
  • F1 - F8: Skills
  • P: Pause
  • Spacebar: Fan (Note, you have to unpause by pressing Space if you want the fan ready when unpausing)
  • Enter: Fast Forward

Bonus Downloads!
But wait... you'll find more attached to this post:

• QFK2_LostTribe: Because 120 levels just wasn't enough, here's another 10 levels for the Egyptian Tribe that do not follow the standard skill theming as the rest of the pack. This was my opportunity to use some level ideas that simply could not work in the rest of the pack due to the strict skill limits I imposed. There is one level in this pack that does not require you to save everyone, which you'll know because like the Classic Tribe it states how many you can lose in the level title. Also, it's the level that has exploders in it. As this overwrites the Egyptian Tribe, you may wish to create a duplicate of your Lemmings 2 game so you can run this and the main pack simultaneously without having to constantly mess around with the files.
• QFK2_Neoclassic: I have converted the Classic Tribe to Neolemmix in case you want to try the levels without suffering from Lemmings 2's bad UI. It uses the new formats, and to play you extract the folder inside the zip into the levels subfolder of Neolemmix.
• QFK2_Neoclassic_music: Extract this into your Neolemmix music folder and NeoClassic will play the Classic Tribe's music in each level. Without this, it will play random music tracks from those that come with Neolemmix.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {3/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 17, 2017, 06:44:42 PM

Oops.

Normally I always leave a level overnight and revisit it later for a fresh take on things. Helps me catch a lot of errors in my level design.

Sports 2 - Double Back on Yourself was the last level made for this release, and I completed it last night and did not give myself the usual time. Well today while thinking about it I had a brainwave, and it turns out the level is broken. And as I started to fix it, it turns out it was very broken. In all sorts of ways.

Now attached to the first post is a version 2 with this level (hopefully) fixed. No need to redownload if you already grabbed version 1, unless you really really want the fixed version.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {3/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on April 18, 2017, 12:05:52 AM

Solved Beach 1-4 before going to bed now. Screenshots of solutions attached.

Love these designs, they feel superior to DMA's L2 levels. Concise, intelligent puzzles that freely take their necessary space, yet are smaller than the DMA levels. Execution problems are unavoidable in L2, but stem from the engine, not from the level design.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Kick in the Groyne is a beautiful puzzle. Looks fiddly, but turns out free of execution problems.

Diving Board took me very long even though every wrong idea dies immediately. Title was a clue eventually.

Hang Sixty looks backrouted, I manage to separate 1 worker.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {3/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 18, 2017, 06:16:17 AM

Thanks for the images, screenshots are an excellent idea! I'm glad you're enjoying it. :)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Diving board is much simpler to execute if the first stack is on the upward slope, maybe I'll change that platform to be not grass to simplify the execution. Also the extra diver let's you cancel the first stack so the lemming goes back into the crowd but I see that it's not necessary, I'll keep it in anyway. Looks like this level is much harder than I thought, might have to push it to later in the level order.

You've backrouted Hang Sixty for sure. I gave an extra builder to try and make the final gap less pixel perfect, I'll remove the builder and make the water two small gaps instead.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {3/12 Tribes}
Post by: Ron_Stard on April 19, 2017, 09:19:54 PM

The intended solution for the first Egyptian level is brilliant! I am still figuring out how to solve the other first levels, but they look clever, too! Good job! :thumbsup:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 22, 2017, 02:38:57 PM

I had a few updates I wanted to push, but was holding off as I'd started the Space tribe before the first release and was close to finishing it off. Given that nobody has reported finishing what's currently available yet, I felt there was no harm in releasing a single tribe and letting people play it sooner. Download the new version and check out the new tribe blurb in the opening post!

v03 changelog:

• New Tribe: Space tribe!
• Fixed minor backroute in Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout
• Beach 3 Diving Board - Starting platform not grass.
• Beach 4 Hang Sixty - Water at end of level is now 2 small pools instead of one big one. Builders reduced from 3 to 2.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: exit on April 24, 2017, 05:52:37 PM

I've finally had time to take a look at the levels, and I managed to complete the Beach tribe.

So far these levels are great! :thumbsup:

Detailed level feedback:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Introducing: Beach: A nice introduction to the skills used in the Beach tribe.

A Kick in the Groyne:  Good puzzle. My solution saved a sand pourer.

Diving Board: This one was pretty easy to figure out, but it has a great solution. I managed to save a diver on this one.

Hang Sixty: This one has a good solution, and it took me awhile to think of using the terrain at the right.

Cross Shore Winds: The solution was quite obvious, but the controlling of the surfer and hang glider at the same time was somewhat tricky.

Turn the Tide: I'm pretty sure that my solution is similar to the intended one, but it saves 2 builders. Good level.

Lifeguard to the Rescue: Also a good level. I think that my solution is essentially the same as the intended one, but it saves a sand pourer and a scooper.

Gnarly 180 Flip: Yet another good level! Pretty sure I got the intended solution here, as I used all of the skills.

Take the Plunge: Great level! The solution fell into place pretty quickly, but it's very nice! My solution saved a surfer/diver (I could've saved the diver instead of the surfer by letting the stacker continue until he walked off the edge, the had him surf to the exit).

Toasted Clam Sand-wiches: This one took me by far the longest. My solution seems to be a backroute because of the extreme precision required, though, and the fact that it didn't use the surfer.

Overall, all of the levels are really good. I'll take a look at the next tribe when I have time.
Solutions are attached.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 24, 2017, 06:45:42 PM

Thank you so so much for the detailed screenshots of your solutions. You've found a whole bunch of backroutes, which is great, because now I get to fix them. You did a whole bunch of stuff there that never even crossed my mind, so well done. :8():

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

4 - Hang Sixty This is fine, but just wanted to comment how surprised I am that you stacked over the clam and used the sand pourer elsewhere. Very precise but it works. Not something worth fixing and the rest of the solution is fine as is. It seems this level might be a bit too hard though compared to what comes later, so I might push it to the level 6 slot.

6 - Turn the Tide Another that's not exactly what I did, but close enough. The official solution involves bumping your head on the parasol to turn the builder around, hence why there are more builders.

7 - Lifeguard to the Rescue A major backroute, looks like I need to swap the spade with a stack of beer cans.

8 - Gnarly 180 Flip Another enormous backroute. It's clever, but misses the main trick so I'm afraid it has to go, sorry! I did want to say that I'm impressed with your solution though. :D Looks like I need to totally trap in the top group by stacking beer cans.

9 - Take the Plunge Again, you've completely bypassed the main trick by getting a worker lemming out of the top group thanks to the spade. It looks like stacked beer cans are the solution to all of life's problems!

10 - Toasted Clam Sand-wiches Yeah, crawling glitches are definitely never going to be intended in my levels. Unfortunately I'm not really sure what I can do to stop that particular crawl, but I think I can knock your backroute on its head by adding a 4th clam to the row of clams. :8()::8()::8()::8():

Again, thank you so much for playing and breaking my levels. Expect an update soon with some fixes.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 24, 2017, 07:08:05 PM

New update in the opening post. I call this the Beer Update™!

v04 changelog:

• Shuffled position of Beach 4 Hang Sixty to level 6. Level 5 Cross Shore Winds and level 6 Turn the Tide both moved one slot earlier as a result.
• Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 10 Toasted Clam Sand-wiches - Fixed major backroute with beer clams :8():.
• Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Fixed multiple major backroutes. No beer this time!

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: mobius on April 24, 2017, 08:46:37 PM

Quote from: kieranmillar on April 24, 2017, 07:08:05 PM

New update in the opening post. I call this the Beer Update™!

v04 changelog:

• Shuffled position of Beach 4 Hang Sixty to level 6. Level 5 Cross Shore Winds and level 6 Turn the Tide both moved one slot earlier as a result.
• Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Fixed major backroute with beer.
• Beach 10 Toasted Clam Sand-wiches - Fixed major backroute with beer clams :8():.
• Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Fixed multiple major backroutes. No beer this time!

is this in reference to a day a few days ago that was national beer day or something like that? I feel like this is a reference I know but forgot.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 24, 2017, 09:02:38 PM

Quote from: möbius on April 24, 2017, 08:46:37 PM

is this in reference to a day a few days ago that was national beer day or something like that? I feel like this is a reference I know but forgot.

No, it's a reference to the fact that fixing the backroutes involved swapping out some terrain objects with the flat-edged beer can terrain object.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on April 24, 2017, 09:48:50 PM

I played through the Beach tribe in V0.4 and saved 58/60. Lots of great levels :thumbsup:, even though fanning together with the general design problems of L2 makes for a very memorable experience :-\.

Some comments regarding the levels (click to show/hide)

1) One of the conceptually harder levels, especially if one wants to save all lemmings. Great puzzle! :thumbsup:
2) Very precision-heavy while the actual level idea is pretty obvious.
3) Great level idea.
4) I lost one lemming here, because fanning both the glider and the surfer isn't something I am gonna do. Even now fanning the surfer while scrolling over the level was a problem for me. Which leads me to the question: Why do we need such a looooong water basin?
5) Very clevel level and much better to showcase the trick, that one already used in Beach 2. I have two small suggestions for improvements: Make the lemming crowd easier to release. I needed all remaining 3 builders to get one facing right. And when building three stairs from the bottom, the fall from the upper platform is still deadly. This however is not quite clear from the beginning, because it looks very much like it is only a stunning fall. Apart from these two issues: :thumbsup:
6) Very nice level again! Note that the worker-lemming glided over the clam to build the two bridges, while the first lemming of the group poured the sand.
7) I doubt that my work on the left-most hatch is actually intended: First lemming uses a flame-thrower, second lemming fills the gap with a sand-pourer. The crowd is then released by a miner. The stair on the right is build with a lemming from the middle hatch, moved there with a glider. Overall another very nice level.
8) That level was much fun! :thumbsup:
9) The worker lemming on the first image is the last lemming appearing in the lower hatch. That's another great level, but I have two requests: Place the starting position at the very top. At first, I missed the upper hatch completely and then wondered why I only saved 30 lemmings. And the lower ledge at the middle platform gives problems to start gliders, because they frequently hit another grass pixel after flying one or two pixels. So any glider has to be started at the very edge.
10) Here I lost my second lemming. I am not a fan of this level, likely due to this being a backroute. The worker lemming on the first screenshot is actually the very last lemming appearing.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 24, 2017, 10:25:08 PM

Another huge thanks for the detailed feedback! Very helpful. Will have to think a bit harder about how to fix some of these issues.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

2 - Heh, right idea, but you made it way more execution heavy than it needed to be. Ultimately no way to prevent you from making it this execution heavy.

4 - I knew some people would hate this level idea, I thought I'd take advantage of having two fan skills in the same skillset, but I understand it's 100% pure execution and some people will hate that. This is definitely the weakest level in the whole pack so far, I think what I'll do is work on the other tribes but if I come up with a good idea for Beach during that time, I'll swap out this level for a new one. I think the level is a unique idea, but that doesn't make it an idea worth keeping around.

5 - Unfortunately I consider this a backroute given that it's largely the same trick as level 2, I might fix it by pulling in that platform a bit so you've got no room to sand pour on it. The fact that the fall at the bottom is still deadly after three builders is a fortunate coincidence, as that's definitely not intended, but can easily make the fall even bigger if it helps.

6 - That works, but the first stack is supposed to be on the far island and not where you put it, but happy to leave it as it is as I see no way to fix it. Using the sand on the first lemming in the crowd is intended, so congratulations on getting that right. It seems like I could probably fix some of these backroutes by brining back the third builder and a large pool of water that this time requires all 3 builds to really enforce you get things done in the right place, but I'm not sure I'm all that fussed about doing it. Some of the solutions here are small variations on the right idea and I'm happy to let them succeed.

7 - That's definitely a backroute, but one that's gonna be much harder to fix. Having said that, I think I have an idea.

8 - Another very significant backroute, and it will be super hard to figure out what to do about it.

9 - Ohhoho, sneaky sneaky! Well done on that backroute, fortunately it's an easy fix. Not much I can do about the hang glider being hard to execute other than to say that I can't fix it because the landscape pretty much has to be that way, and I'm not fussed because when the backroute is fixed it shouldn't be a problem, if you get what I mean... I didn't start the screen up at the top because the top trapdoor opens at stun height, so the sound of the lemmings getting stunned was meant to be a clue that they were up there in case no-one scrolled up that high, and it was more annoying on restart to have to scroll down every time.

10 - Well it seems its not possible to pull off this backroute and still get a gold, so.... it's not a backroute? I don't think there's anything to fix here, if it's not possible to get gold with that route then I don't consider it valid. Sorry!

Next update will take a bit longer, will have to think hard about some fixes. Thanks again for the screenshots and detailed feedback.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: exit on April 24, 2017, 10:26:25 PM

I'm sad to say that I found some more backroutes, but I think I found an intended solution!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lifeguard to the Rescue: Majorly backrouted.

Gnarly 180 Flip: Pretty simple alteration to my original solution.

Take the Plunge: I managed to save a sand pourer this time. :lem-shocked:

Toasted Clam Sand-wiches: I think I finally found the intended solution! :D If so, I have to say, WOW! This is a devious solution. Your use of red herrings in this level is great, and no, you don't use crawling glitches, but you do use other ones! :devil:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 24, 2017, 11:09:27 PM

exit, can you provide a description of those solutions? It looks like you might have meant to attach screenshots, but would be nice to know what you did as I'll be updating many of those levels in the next update and would be nice to kill multiple backroutes at once (or you may have found intended solutions and would be nice to confirm).

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: exit on April 24, 2017, 11:54:36 PM

Screenshots now attached. :-[
(To previous post)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 25, 2017, 06:31:42 AM

Thanks. The good news is, we are getting much closer to the intended solution in some cases.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

7 - Welp, that decorative bucket has to go haha, but you're getting close otherwise.

8 - Well this is getting closer and closer to being unfixable. Looks like I have to do something a bit more drastic. (You are nowhere close to the intended solution). Having said that most unintended solutions here are a bit cool but it's better to strive for the intended solution here I think.

9 - I'm adamant that I get the intended solution to work here because I was really proud of it and I think it will blow everyone's mind, but nobody is getting anywhere near to close to it yet. After a certain point it'll become unfixable due to what needs to be done, but I think I can still knock this backroute on its head.

10 - Good news, you are getting very close, but I am not happy with using a glitch being a good solution. Obviously you are not supposed to be able to stack through the palm tree. Given that going that way is also unintended, I think it's best served by more obviously blocking off going that way. The rest of your solution except going right past the palm tree is largely intended though, so good job! :thumbsup:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on April 25, 2017, 05:44:59 PM

Quote

I didn't start the screen up at the top because the top trapdoor opens at stun height, so the sound of the lemmings getting stunned was meant to be a clue that they were up there in case no-one scrolled up that high

Problem with this: The lemmings of the tribes yelp at any occation they can think of (and it feels they do even without having any cause :P). This got so annoying that I turned all sound off after the first two tries on Beach 1...

I solved the next two tribes, Sports and Egypt, both with 60/60. The Egypt levels were very good 8-), but I think I backrouted most of Sport :-[.

Detailed comments on Egypt (click to show/hide)

1) Very good first level! :thumbsup:
2) Easy level, that was nonetheless much fun to play.
3) Another great level, especially hiding the exit and bashing it free again at the end. :thumbsup:
4) This was slightly too easy for my taste. Get the carpet to the other side (stopping it was the main problem!) and the level is done.
5) Clever idea. I added only one screenshot, but it should be sufficient here.
6) Very neat trick, but I wonder whether this is actually completely intended? The basher is saved via flying to the exit on a carpet.
7) Evil design, that one may not use the glue-pourer on the lower ledge, or one barricades the exit :evil:. So I had the do some basher-preservation ;).
8) One screenshot of the (only) worker-lemmings should suffice. Great level again! :thumbsup:
9) The correct approach isn't hard to find, but to space everything correctly and manage to block the basher tunnels with only two sand-pourers took me way too many tries.
10) If one manages to trap a lemming totally within terrain, he climbs upwards until finding open terrain again. That's how the worker lemming upstairs got at his position :P The rest is standard work.

Detailed comments on Sport (click to show/hide)

1) Here two screenshots of two different solutions, both using (almost) none of the sporting skills.
2) The climber paves the way and there is even one builder left at the end to turn him on the triangle before climbing to the ball-trap.
3) Nice, little level. The only problem is how to save the climber...
4) It's important that the shimmier does not reach the ceiling in the second screenshot. After that only one platformer is needed and one can free the crowd.
5) If one turns the runner into a shimmier at the lower end of the small triangle, he jumps directly one the checkered block. The rest, you can see...
6) I am fairly sure, I shouldn't have trapped the crowd there ;P
7) I fear my screenshot isn't 100% descriptive, so here some more details: The runner can bash through the pillar and build over the gap before the crowd arrives. Then a climber jumps over the basher tunnel and frees the upper hatch.
8) I already hated basher-staircases in L1, and do so even more in L2 :devil:
9) That on the other hand was a great level again :thumbsup:. The lower left lemming on the first screenshot, shimmies to the exit flag and mines there. I misplaced a basher once, so I should have had a basher spare at the end of the level.
10) All jumping lemmings that you see are shimmiers and they allow bypassing the ball-trap. :lem-mindblown: I suspect this is not quite intended. ;)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 25, 2017, 07:57:20 PM

Thanks again for the screenshots and for figuring out some tricky (and sometimes not so tricky :-[ ) backroutes. Glad to see that Egypt is not as broken as the other two tribes, but a bit sad at the sheer number of Sports backroutes. :(

Egyptian

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1,2,3 - All intended, but the levels are too simple to break I guess. Glad you enjoyed them. :thumbsup:

4 - I thought you couldn't stop the magic carpet on a flat ceiling so you wouldn't be able to stop up there. Looks like I need to extend that wall to the ceiling.

5 - Again, your ability to stop the carpet on any ceiling, not just downward sloping ones, caused a bit of a backroute here, but not massively. This will require major rethinks, or simply a removal of all ceilings! Maybe I'll just leave it as it is.

6 - Mostly intended, but I didn't think to turn someone around at the start with a sandpourer, which is obvious in hindsight, so the main trick is right, but not totally intended. I will need to make some tweaks here, maybe some better way to free the attractor instead of sand. Might swap the two sand pourers for a magic carpet, but then it's too obvious that the other route is wrong because it's super obvious you can't get past the trap. I guess it was super obvious anyway.

7 - Slightly backrouted, I didn't plan to fill up that entire area, but it's such a smart solution that I'm happy to keep it in! Good job! :thumbsup:

8 - Another minor backroute that gets the correct central idea (you need to correctly get the fillers to go backwards into the holes, sand up the gap, then mine down). You're meant to have two worker lemmings to pull this off. I might make some adjustments... or maybe I'll just leave this in, because the main ideas are all there.

9 - This level has lots of similar solutions as the central idea is obvious, so I doubt there will ever be anything to fix. This solution is a good one, a bit different to mine but it works. :thumbsup:

10 - Crawling glitches will never be correct in my levels. I think I can get rid of this particular one, but I suspect it will keep finding ways to be possible. I suspect that one of these days there will be an unfixable crawler glitch, oh well.

Sports

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1 - Wow, serves me right for trying to put in a nice slope landmark for the miner to help people out. That definitely needs to go.

2 - A backroute. Looks like the bits hanging down from the ceiling need to be steel.

3 - A backroute, sadly :( But good job with this solution. Another easy fix with steel.

4 - Wow, he gets turned around by that? Ugh. Gonna have to fiddle with this one to try and fix that!

5 - Well that was dumb, adding in that little triangle to try and make execution easier caused a backroute. I think I can fix this? But I can see how else it might be similarly broken. Might need a substantial change.

6 - Curses! Cute decorations screw me over again!

7 - I cannot believe I never actually tried this. I feel so dumb! Time for a big steel wall!

8 - Wow, I never even considered something like that would be possible! Gonna have to try adding some steel, but it will make me sad :(

9 - Oooooh I can't believe I let that one slip by. Looks like the metal block needs a steep overhang on top!

10 - Nice backroute! Those balls are worthless traps in practice. I think I can easily fix this one though.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on April 25, 2017, 08:12:39 PM

Some comments on your responses to Egypt levels (click to show/hide)

Egypt 4: I stopped the carpet on the 45 degree upwards slope ;)
Egypt 5: I stopped the carpet on the downward sloping ceiling and then used the pourer behind the depression and it flowed backwards :P
Egypt 6: I freed the attractor with the glue-pourer.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on April 25, 2017, 08:43:23 PM

Thanks for the replies for the screenshots earlier!

Sports 1-10 on stream, and some Beach (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/138040618)

With geoo and, later, Icho in voicechat. I gave commentary on what I consider intended and what I consider backroutes. geoo has taken screenshots of his solutions, he'll post them eventually.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 25, 2017, 09:23:40 PM

A video? Amazing! :lem-mindblown: Will definitely watch it all! :D Thanks!

The next update is gonna be huge at this rate. I have changes for 18 levels lined up so far. I cannot believe how many backroutes there are, you are all excellent at finding these. Perhaps a clear sign that I haven't played enough Lemmings?

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: geoo on April 25, 2017, 09:27:19 PM

I solved the first 5 Beach levels from version 3, and then a few more from version 4, and all of the sports level from the race with Simon. Many Beach levels were a bit fiddly, and I suspect many Sports solutions are backroutes, though there were some gems with elegant solutions and clean execution. I'm attaching screenshots and a few comments.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Beach 1: Nice puzzle, simple execution once you figure the idea.
Beach 2: My solution is very ugly but works. Could make the starting ledge shorter to discourage it.
Beach 3: The surfer behaves strangely in the water pit, so I resorted to divers in the end (for the second guy to get past the first bridge before it's ready, and one guy at arrived a bit too early at the second bridge).
Beach 4: I'm not a big fan of fanning skills...
Beach 5: Interesting, wonder whether it's intended.
Beach 6: A bit fiddly at the end, but the solution idea is nice.
Beach 7: Somehow really simple.
Beach 8: Looks like a backroute.

Sports 1: Again, nice puzzle with simple execution.
Sports 2: Solution is quite different from Simon's, I wonder what's intended here.
Sports 3: Nice trick here to make the climber not to overboard, I sent two runners ahead to bash and then mine backwards.
Sports 4: Used a shimmier which glitched into the triangular terrain, and just turned and fell down.
Sports 5: I found this one tough, but looks like a backroute, my solution is not particularly elegant. Was trying to find something where you platform from the left halfway up, but runners skip the ledge.
Sports 6: Very simple one. Was very skill efficient separating one while trapping everyone else with just one miner, but other options work.
Sports 7: I quite like this one, but I wonder if you had something more sophisticated in mind than turning simply with the two miners.
Sports 8: My solution feels very hackish, I believe there's also a direct shortcut going straight left but it's annoying to execute. Either way, I was unable to find a nice solution.
Sports 9: Love it, amazing level. Though depending on where exactly the shimmier start, it might stop half-way when going downwards, where you have the big triangular block touching the parallelogram block. This basically depends on luck. I wonder if you can put different blocks there to make it perfectly smooth so this doesn't happen.
Sports 10: Very bad crawling backroute.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: ccexplore on April 25, 2017, 09:51:03 PM

Quote from: kieranmillar on April 25, 2017, 09:23:40 PM

I cannot believe how many backroutes there are, you are all excellent at finding these. Perhaps a clear sign that I haven't played enough Lemmings?

Nah, it's often just a natural matter of tunnel vision.  As many people here can attest to, the level author is usually the worst at finding backroutes to their own levels, simply because they already have a particular vision on what the solution is "supposed to be", so it becomes that much easier to overlook something you never considered.  Whereas the player has no preconceptions and will try lots of things on their path to a working solution, and so will be more likely to stumble upon something unexpected by the author.  I also think Lemmings 2 with its more complex game physics will make it more likely that some skills or behaviors can be used in ways you never thought of.

It is also fair to say that there are some very good players on this forum. 8-)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 26, 2017, 06:47:25 PM

Thank you all so much for the video and screenshots and feedback. Too many comments at once to respond individually to, but version 5 has been released! I call this the Oh God Everything Is Broken™ update. I've decided to try a less forgiving version of Beach 6 Hang Sixty to try and discourage the fiddly solution people had been trying. Ultimately I think it's slower than the intended solution quite significantly, and so should be an obvious fail now, which will hopefully stop people trying to spend so long on making things hard on themselves and getting frustrated. Hopefully.

Apologies for being a bit vague on some of these, I try to avoid giving things away in the release notes if I think it might be spoilers for someone. Trying not to draw attention to things in some cases.

Oh, I should mention quickly that if I understand geoo's Sports 9 solution then it is 100% bang-on intended. Well done!

v05 changelog:

• Beach 3 Diving Board - Wider water pool. Extra builder skill.
• Beach 5 Turn the Tide - Moved platform to the left, also level is a bit taller. Terrain altered to make crowd assigning easier.
• Beach 6 Hang Sixty - Landscape around beercan and bottom of screen changed. 3rd builder brought back.
• Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Major revisions. Sand pourer replaced with surfer as a result.
• Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Major revisions. Note: the exit has moved slightly too.
• Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Major revisions, also now one less sand pourer.
• Beach 10 Toasted Clam Sand-wiches - More steel, and large decorative sandcastle moved.
• Egypt 4 Carpet Race - Backroute fix.
• Egypt 5 Smooth Operators - Backroute fix? Probably.
• Egypt 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes - Crawling glitch fixed, hopefully!
• Sports 1 Introducing: Sports - Never thought I'd have to fix an intro level, but here we are!
• Sports 2 Double-back on Yourself - A number of backroute fixes.
• Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - More steel and minor revisions. Most importantly, fixed the typo in the name!
• Sports 4 Nice Catch! - Major revisions. Note: Extra platformer skill added.
• Sports 5 Give it the Run Around - Major revisions.
• Sports 6 Tour De Farce - Major Revisions.
• Sports 7 The Home Stretch - Backroute fixes.
• Sports 8 Pole Position - Major revisions, quality of life changes, and reduction in skills!
• Sports 9 Uphill Obstacle Course - Backroute fix, hopefully fixed random shimmier fail.
• Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Tennis ball traps are worthless. In related news, backroute and crawler glitches fixed.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on April 26, 2017, 09:24:40 PM

Today I solved the Space tribe. I still used V0.4, but according to your changelog, it shouldn't matter. I am not a fan of jetpacks, bazookas or mortars, so overall I preferred other tribes, but at least my solutions don't look too much like backroutes.

Detailed comments on Space (click to show/hide)

1) Very nice intro level. :thumbsup: For an alternative solution, see level 10)
2) The main problem was placing the bazooka correctly. It feels like there are only two or three pixels where it may be placed.
3) Nice little level.
4) Very good level idea, but placing the upper platformer correctly, so that the lemmings land on the lower one requires quite a bit of precision.
5) I am not a fan of this level at all. Too much focus on execution and not enough on the actual puzzle.
6) Apart from the focus on bazookas and mortars, a good level.
7) That was a lot of fun to play! :thumbsup:
8) Very nice level, but the time limit got me on this one :( And assigning the magno booter after jumping over the trap requires too much unneccessary precision, in my opinion.
9) I like my trick with the platformers creating gaps, but I wonder whether this is intended?
10) Great level! But if you replace the two jumpers over the trap with platforming there once, one could use the same solution in level 1. But I guess this solution is actually more complicated than the one I found for level 1 first, so it might not be a huge problem.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 26, 2017, 11:27:24 PM

Thanks Nepster for your comments as always. A couple of solutions there are the right idea, but many are not quite right. I've made some fixes to the parts of your solutions that I consider backroutes. I don't want to push out too many rapid-fire updates, but given nobody has downloaded version 5 yet, I may as well upload another version, it's not like I'm requiring people to just keep applying updates constantly.

v06 changelog:

• Space 1 Introducing: Space - Backroute fix.
• Space 2 Anti-Gravity - Added steel to fix backroute.
• Space 3 Blast Chamber - Mirrored the level!
• Space 4 Gravity Chamber - Backroute fix.
• Space 6 Satellite Junk - Minor platform move to fix minor backroute.
• Space 8 Space Rescue - Trap replaced with big hole. The traps in this game are so useless.
• Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Removed wall by teleporter, replaced with useless trap.
• Space 10 Alternate Dimension - Backroute fix.

Response to your comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1 - Exactly intended, but obviously will need a change in line with fixing level 10, but no change to this solution.
2 - Looks like I need to make that block steel, that's a big backroute that avoids the main trick.
3 - This is hilarious, you've got all the right ideas, but I somehow never twigged that the lemmings start facing right. So I've gone ahead and mirrored the level so now it's slightly different. Your solution was fine and had all the right ideas, but I wanted things to go slightly differently. Maybe not worht a fix, but I'll do it anyway.
4 - The level of precision here is a problem as the solution is totally different to the intended. I'd rather encourage the intended solution as it's less precise.
5 - That's an interesting solution to this level! I knew some people would hate it, I feel like you made things possibly much harder on yourself here than they needed to be. But I think it's a really fun level, so it'll stay as-is for now.
6 - Hmm... not quite what I had in mind but whatever, good enough. (You're meant to be forced to use a magnobooter on one of the first two lemmings and then escort it across the level, but it's really hard to enforce that setup). The level's not so great in practice and the central idea struggled to be enforced so it's no surprise you've done something else. I might add  this to the list of levels that could do with being replaced.
7 - Good job! While not totally correct it's good enough, but there was one particular bit I'd like to enforce so I'll make a minor tweak. Your solution is neat though :thumbsup:
8 - A massive backroute, but at least fixing it saves you from the preciseness of using the magnobooter after the trap!
9 - Ahhhh, stacking platformers on top of each other, very smart! It's not intended as misses the main puzzle, but fortunately I think it's an easy fix.
10 - Exactly the right idea, but missing a particular trick, so I'll need to make a minor tweak. Good job on figuring out the central idea though :thumbsup:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on April 29, 2017, 11:37:47 AM

I played the updated levels. For some I think I got the intended solution, some others haven't improved at all.

Beach (click to show/hide)

5) Releasing the crowd is now much easier. Thanks! But unfortunately my old solution still works.
6) This level became a fanning hell. First of all fanning from the top platform to the green house is possible, but due to the small vertical window size, requires fanning beyond the screen bottom and hoping that one did enough. The next problem is fanning from the green house, below the platform to the right (without hitting it!) and stopping only at the water pool.
7) This level is now totally unfair, because one has to surf directly through the steel block!
8) The beginning requires a lot of precision now. If you use the sand-pourer, then a small gap remains which will be hit by the miner quite often. If you start mining right away, you have do so at the last pixel before turning at the ball and then stop the miner with a diver at one specific frame (see Beach08_Alt.png). The rest of the level is very nice, though.
9) Sorry, but your changes didn't help at all with starting the hang glider. Even worse: You now have to fan the first one upwards extremely fast to the platform where I used the sand-pourer. Moreover please enlarge the space between the water pool and the sand platform above. It is very hard to place the stacker correctly, so that the miner can remove the builder stair and still fall to the left of the stacker. Apart from these two issues a very nice level!
10) Nice level! My solution should be closer to the intended one now. :)

Egypt (click to show/hide)

4) The level has improved much and the solution looks more intended now.
5) I can't see any differences to the previous version. ???
10) No crawling any more (though I am fairly sure a crawling solution still exists), but I still doubt that my solution is intended.

Space (click to show/hide)

2) Very nice level with firing on the magno-booter.
3) Indeed pretty similar to the previous version. The only problem now is placing the attractor: Too early and no lemming turns from the bazooka impact, while doing so too late will fling a lemming to his death when the mortar hits.
4) Still basically the same solution as before, just using the laser blaster at a slightly different position.
7) I am not a fan of your changes, because they now require a lot more fanning jetpacks around: First from the right-most platform to the position in Space07_2.png, and then from the place in Space07_3.png to the left of the exit. Especially the second fanning is really hard.
8) Nice additional twist, that you added there! :)
9) I still use platformer stacking, but now have to use a magno-booter and the laser blaster to prevent the crowd from reaching the teleporter and find the exit instead.
10) I liked my previous solution better. The new solution again works in level 1, too, if you replace the first jumper (to separate the worker lemming from the crowd) by a magno-booter.

Sport (click to show/hide)

1) Very nice solution! :thumbsup: But unfortunately there are a lot of approaches that fail due to one or two pixels: For the direct path (similar to my previous solutions) the exit platform is two pixels too high. Turning on the exit platform with a pole-vaulter fails barely, and getting to the exit platform with the pole-vaulter seems impossible, too. The best I managed was hitting the ground right in front of the wall. If any of this would have worked, you would have gotten a completely different solution.
2) Another great solution. :thumbsup: Unfortunately I didn't know that jumpers can get across the small gap on the middle platform and therefore spent two very frustrating hours trying everything else, until at last I missed one builder assignment and the runner did not fall into the water as expected. :lem-mindblown:
3) I haven't solved this level. But I really, really hope that the solution does not go along the lines of the screenshot: Turn a runner with a shimmier at the second green spike, then mine down and let the climber-runner jump into the miner tunnel with another shimmier. The screenshot shows the only time I managed to mine at a reasonable place, but misplaced the shimmier assignment. And I have tried it several dozen times.
I really preferred the previous version!
4) I spent hours on this level, but have no clue what to do here. It really feels like I am completely missing some specific quirk of the L2 physics as in level 2, but unfortunately haven't accidentally hit upon it.
5) I need now two runners, at least. But unfortunately assigning both the builder and the shimmier at the upper platform requires a lot of precision.
6) If you don't let me trap the lemming there, then I trap them elsewhere... :P
7) Still basically the same solution, but now needs delaying the crowd by mining through the billard table once.
8) Much better level now! But I don't need the bashers at all and would have had a builder spare if I hadn't misplaced one...
9) Not much of a change, to be honest.
10) The trap is still useless, but instead of climbing up directly, I have to use a slightly round-about way... Releasing the crowd with the basher is pure chance, though.

Edit: Now with attachment.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 29, 2017, 05:18:21 PM

Thanks again Nepster. I will probably hold off on the next version until there's another Tribe to play. Some of your backroutes make me sad, but some make me happy. I'm willing to allow interesting and fun backroutes in some cases, but in the case of Sports 3 (and I know people really liked that backroute) I'm adamant that while I have a tribe with the shimmier that I get this one to be the intended. Besides I can reuse the nice backroute for another level in another tribe.

Actually it looks like some of you are really struggling with Sports 3, so here are some important features of shimmiers incase you're all struggling because you don't understand how they work:

Shimmier facts (click to show/hide)

1) You can assign a shimmier to a "dangling" lemming, even if he's dangling because he was already shimmying and just hit a wall.
2) Shimmiers will turn around before dangling if they hit a wall, and will not turn around if they stop due to an overhang.

Comments to your comments:

Beach (click to show/hide)

5 - Well fine then, time to make a more drastic change.
6 - This level is not supposed to be fanning hell, and hopefully if I knock out that backroute it'll stop being fanning hell. The intended solution needs significantly less finicky fan use.
7 - OMG what! :lem-mindblown: Why does that work? I had no idea you could surf through the steel haha. Fortunately an easy bug to fix. I guess you're turning him around by scooping into the steel by the water now? Well, I guess that's alright, but should probably just bring back the sand pourer instead of the surfer and hope that the sand doesn't open up a backroute again. I can't believe this incredibly straightforward level is so rife with drastic backroutes.
8 - Good job on your solution :thumbsup: It is interesting that you've taken the correct bridge-stacker-bridge technique and applied it to exactly the wrong side of the level. Of course this only works due to the extension of the top group's platform, but I'm willing to leave your solution as is as the main tricks are all there. Also, I'll make the scooping and building easier to pull off and less precise if I can, I think I know how.
9 - Heh, I guess you misread my previous comment in that I wasn't bothered about the tricky to pull off hangglider use because it's actually not intended to be used there. I thought I'd nipped your wildly incorrect solution in the bud, but obviously not, which is why you're having some difficulty with nasty precision for some bits. I'll have to have another think about this and might have to remove the sand pourer, I think the intended solution here is great, but it's really hard to do many changes to the landscape here without making it impossible to work. I will need to think about this.
10 - Nice solution :thumbsup: While some details are not exact, I think your solution is good enough and so will leave it unchanged. It looks like there is a bit of finicky crowd control horror in freeing the crowd but not sure what I can do about that.

Egypt (click to show/hide)

4 - Looks like with precise enough sand pouring you don't need to spend a basher and use the filler to stretch it out to also go through the back wall, but nothing I can do about that, so it has to stay as is.
5 - I see now that you're turning the lemming around by burying him inside your filler, instead of just dropping from the magic carpet further back as I had assumed before. Well this is another unfixable issue, the level is a worse rip-off of an official level anyway so whatever, the main idea is there :p
10 - OK so coming into all this I didn't know that basher staircases were even a thing until you broke Sports 8 with one, and it looks like if you have enough bashers and pouring skills then there's no way to stop them replicating a miner. I seriously have no idea how to fix this, but it looks like a huge pain in the arse to pull off, so I guess I'm just going to leave it as it is I suppose. Oh well :(

Space (click to show/hide)

2 - Exactly intended, nice work :thumbsup:
3 - Yeah, I suppose your solution in the older version of the level avoided that attractor precision which was nice, but I think I'll just leave this level as it is. These explosion mechanics are gonna be a pain no matter what I think.
4 - OK, the positioning of the laser blaster there is really cool and I really like it :thumbsup: .... buuuuut I really don't want you to jetpack down to the floor, so I might still try and fix this. Hopefully it'll all still work.
7 - So this puzzle is primarily meant to be a logic puzzle about platform placement and the direction the lemming is facing. I was fine with your solutions where you do some tricky jumping, but if it's going to result in some fiddly jetpacking then I'd rather try to keep things simple. Here's what I'm gonna do: try to refactor this level to make it more focussed on the logic puzzle and remove all of the jumpers, as well as try to simplify jetpacking as much as possible (but it can be hard sometimes, because it's the jetpack, only so much can be done.
8 - While this is still unintended, in a major way, it's an unintended solution that I'm fine with keeping. Good job :thumbsup:
9 - Another unintended solution but one I'm fine happy with. It's a lot closer to the right solution, but again just some details are different (platform stacking) that I'm not too fussed about and would be hard to fix anyway :thumbsup:
10 - This will have to change as I want the general idea to be impossible in level 1. Looks like I need to add even more distance between areas.

Sports (click to show/hide)

1 - That is the intended solution, so good job :thumbsup: The fact that unintended solutions just barely don't work is good enough for me, I think it's obvious that the direct route isn't supposed to work so I won't feel sad about anyone spending too much time trying to be ridiculous here.
2 - Again, the exact intended solution, nice work. :thumbsup: Sorry you weren't aware that jumpers would still try to jump over the small gap, but due to limitations on the terrain placement for Lemmings 2 there is not much I can do about that.
3 - I am happy to say that the solution does not involve that level of nonsense, and I will remove the decorative spikes as you're not supposed to be able to turn around on them. I do want to stress that the solution here is super straight forward, an again sorry for knocking out the fun and smart backroute.
4 - Good news, there's no mechanical quirks you are missing, this is actually a straightforward logical puzzle. You might have a bit of backroute tunnel-vision.
5 - Yuck, the precision here is gross, and it's a backroute, so it has to go.
6 - *Sigh* I guess I'm going to have to be significantly more explicit here in what's not supposed to be allowed.
7 - Oh good grief. I only had that zig zag bit because I wanted the exit to appear in the opening screen, so if it's possible to turn around on it then it will have to be changed. I hope that stopping a turn-around in that spot will finally fix this backroute as far as I can see.
8 - One of these days I'll find a foolproof way to stop you guys from taking a rock climber up to the top path. Looks like I need to get much more explicit about it.
9 - Now this backroute makes me really sad. Looks like I'm gonna have to get rid of a platformer :( EDIT: No, wait, I don't! Phew!
10 - Time for more steel!

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: geoo on April 29, 2017, 09:37:06 PM

Simon and I went through the space levels today (no video recording, we were working together on some of the levels). My comments and screenshots are below. I had a really good time playing these, very interesting levels.
Tomorrow (Sunday, April 30) we're planning to go through the Egypt levels, and videostream that again. If you want to watch, we'd start 18:00 UTC, though if that doesn't work for you we can also stream earlier or later. http://twitch.tv/simonnaar

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Space 1: A bit easier to see the solution than Beach and Sports 1.
Space 2: Interesting little trick there.
Space 3: I like the double use of the mortar here, nice little level.
Space 4: This was a bit tricky to pull off, but really intriguing level. I wonder if my solution is intended, the jet packer seems a bit wasted. Though interesting use of the attractors here.
Space 5: This was pretty straightforward, and I didn't need any of the extra skills. Reminds me of a level I made a long time ago, of the same name: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=990.msg33468#msg33468
Space 6: Found a pretty bad (but easy to fix) backroute, and a more sensible looking solution that makes nice use of the magno booter.
Space 7: I really like the premise of this one, though my solution ended up being not so tricky. I saved a magno booter, so I wonder if I found a shortcut somewhere.
Sports 8: Jumpers for getting ahead of the crowd, is that intended? Initially I used the last lemming from the right to laser blast, and then ran out of time, which was a bit annoying. I don't see the tight time limit serving any particular purpose, so you might as well make it very generous.
Space 9: The jetpacker placement is neat, but then I hacked my way through... Though if the teleporter is intended to be used, then I'm really intrigued by this level.
Space 10: I tried to do something completely different from Space 1, and I think I succeeded :)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on April 30, 2017, 07:50:38 AM

Thanks for the comments! I am good with a stream at 18:00 UTC (seems to be 7:00 PM UK time) so I'll be there! I have no changes to the Egypt tribe in the pipeline so hopefully it should all be mostly intended solutions.

Happy that you enjoyed the Space tribe. I wasn't so sure that explosions and jetpacks were going to go down so well as they can be a bit fiddly at times.

Comments about comments (click to show/hide)

1-3: All completely intended :thumbsup:
4: Mostly intended, you got the main bulk of the level correct so good enough! :thumbsup:
5: Heh, I've not played many other custom L2 levels yet as I wanted to avoid being influenced. Interesting that you made something similar and called it the same thing! Many of the other skills are just quality of life improvements to make things potentially less frustrating so not worried that you didn't use them. :thumbsup:
6: I'll have to keep in mind that you can get through diagonal steel blocks! Anyway this level is not so interesting and may be wholly revamped at some point.
7: There are some significant reworkings of this puzzle already in the pipeline.
8: This is similar to Nepster's unintended solution but given the intended one requires utilising a not obvious interaction I'm happy to leave this sort of solution in place. I'll increase the time limit.
9: Definitely a backroute. Looks like I need to raise up the teleporter platform.
10: The right central idea and identical to what Nepster did, but I want this solution to not be possible in Space 1 so there are small changes in the pipeline.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on April 30, 2017, 09:11:01 PM

(http://www.lixgame.com/etc/kieran-egyptian-geoo-simon.png) (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139164452)

QFK v6 Egyptian by geoo and Simon (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/139164452) -- this stream shows both geoo's and my gameplay. This comes close to ccexplore's with for watching a race live. :lix-grin: Will expire in 14 days.

Thanks for Kieran for joining twitch chat!

In case you had preferred not to make a twitch account: An alternative for chatting during the livestream would have been IRC (irc.quakenet.org #lix and #neolemmix, webchat (http://webchat.quakenet.org/?channels=lix,neolemmix)). We sit there often, even when not streaming.

During streams, twitch is better anyway. It's one chatroom for all viewers, and twitch saves the chat along with the vod for 14 days.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 01, 2017, 10:05:08 PM

The next update is almost here but still have some stuff to do and ran out of time today, so expect it tomorrow. My changelog has a whopping 22 levels listed for changes, some minor, some major. I'll also give you the following sneak peeks of what else is to come:

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/cavelems.png)

(http://www.kieranmillar.com/lemmings/qfk2/classic.png)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: Ryemanni on May 01, 2017, 10:19:51 PM

I just played L2 recently so it will be a blast to try these out :D

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {4/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 02, 2017, 08:33:43 PM

It's finally here! Version 7 attached to the first post! This update brings the Cavelems Tribe, but because the thematic skills I chose combined with the pretty but really awkward to use tileset resulted in a lot of fan use, I figured some people might not like it so much, so also bundled along for the ride is the crowd-favourite Classic Tribe!

Note that the Classic Tribe is the first (and will probalby be the only) tribe where you are allowed to lose lemmings and still get a gold. To prevent annoying guesswork and trial and error, each level of the tribe states in the level title how many lemmings you are allowed to lose.

v07 changelog:

• New Tribe: Cavelems Tribe!
• New Tribe: Classic Tribe!
• Beach 5 Turn the Tide - Backroute fix by enforcing use of flame thrower to free crowd.
• Beach 6 Hang Sixty - Backroute fix, blocking off area behind beer can and made intended solution even easier to pull off.
• Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Wow, I didn't even know you could surf through the steel. Obviously a bug, now fixed.
• Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Less precision needed.
• Beach 9 Take the Plunge - Major revisions. Level simplified and shrunk slightly, skills changed significantly.
• Egyptian 2 The Hardening Chamber - Fixed geoo's backroute, removed spare sand pourer.
• Egyptian 7 Inner Sanctum - Fix geoo's backroute.
• Egyptian 9 Eye Drops - Major rework, level is shorter, has less skills, simpler to execute and a quicker to traverse layout. Now its more of an actual puzzle instead of a playpen
• Egyptian 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes - Some backroute fixes. Nepster's backroute probably unfixable without making the intended route tedious.
• Space 1 Introducing: Space - Backroute fix.
• Space 4 Gravity Chamber - Knocked out wall and swapped Jetpack for 2 Jumpers.
• Space 7 Satellite Junk - Major rework, removed Jumper skill, made jetpacking easier where possible, and all sorts of minor changes.
• Space 8 Space Rescue - Increased time limit by a minute.
• Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Rasied starting platform and telporter to fix backroute.
• Space 10 Alternate Dimension - Backroute fix.
• Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Removed misleading decorative spiky bits.
• Sports 5 Give it the Run Around - Backroute fix.
• Sports 6 Tour De Farce - Backroute fix.
• Sports 7 The Home Stretch - Straighting ramp to exit for backroute fix (I want the exit raised up so it appears in the starting screen).
• Sports 8 Pole Position - Major overhaul and simplification to fix longstanding backroute problems once and for all. I may have gone overboard...
• Sports 9 Uphill Obstacle Course - Removed red-herring steel block near entrance that opened up backroute.
• Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Steel near exit for backroute fix, fixed tennis balls so that they actually work.

Classic Tribe: Gameplay differences
While making the Classic Tribe I ended up learning a lot about how Lemmings 2 is different to Lemmings 1 in ways that might surprise you, so to prevent surprises, here's some things you should know. Note that all of the levels had to be specifically designed to accomodate or avoid some of these behaviours, but where ideas didn't work, at least Quest From Kieran 1 got some new levels :D

• L2 assigns skills to the first lemming out of the hatch that is under your cursor. If the first lemming chosen cannot be assigned the skill for whatever reason, the game stops there and does not look for the next valid target. This means that assigning skills next to blockers may cause the assignment to fail if the blocker was first out of the hatch.
• Exploders still exist where they blew up until the entire shower of pixels is off-screen, so you may be unable to assign any skills to other lemmings in the area where they blew up for a couple of seconds.
• Exploders do not remove any terrain if the lemming was falling when his timer ends!
• At the top of their climb, climbers may climb through 1 or 2 pixels thick overhangs.
• Miners do not turn on steel.

Oh yeah, the Cavelems Tribe has the Icarus Wings skill, which is pretty ass to control and has some issues, so here's some pointers:

• It is extremely susceptible to the fan, so I highly recommend either tapping it very lightly, or holding it really far away.
• There are some issues with it detaching when you smack it into terrain. If you want to land it on a spear which is one pixel thick, the lemming will often fall through, so smack him into a wall or the ceiling instead is my advice.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on May 03, 2017, 08:26:00 AM

Moved Kieran's excellent instructions how to install DOSBox and play L2 (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3273) to the Help board.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 03, 2017, 04:14:10 PM

Have you wanted to play this pack, but don't like Lemmings 2 and its dodgy interface? Well I'm happy to meet you half way. Now you can play the Classic Tribe in Neolemmix in Quest From Kieran 2 : NeoClassic, you'll find it attached to the first post.

Note that due to gameplay differences, some very minor terrain adjustments had to be made to make drops that are safe in Lemmings 2 also safe in Neolemmix, as Lemmings 2 has almost double the safe fall distance.

I was in two minds whether or not to make changes over the difference where miners turn when they hit steel in Neolemmix, but not in Lemmings 2. In the end I didn't, but I have a suspicion that a backroute or two may open up as a result. If you find any, maybe I'll make changes.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: geoo on May 04, 2017, 08:59:50 PM

Tried some of the backroute fixes in Space, Egypt and Beach. I'm still stuck on Beach 9 and 10, I have almost-solutions to both...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Beach 7: Looks like a very cheap backroute, but easily fixed by moving the right starting platform up.
Egypt 9: New hackjob solution. :P
Egypt 10: I only tried once and failed (but almost succeeded), but I'm pretty sure it's possible to just make a big pile in the starting chamber to get to the exit. Found another solution that saves 14 sand pourers.
Space 7 & 9: I found nice solutions to both, wonder if they are intended. Enjoyed them a lot.
Tiny Tomb: same solution still works.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 04, 2017, 10:01:21 PM

Thanks for the screenshots

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Beach 5 Turn the Tide - Right idea :thumbsup:
Beach 6 Hang Sixty - A cool solution, no way to enforce exactly what I do but this is a nice solution so I don't think I'll make any more changes to this level :thumbsup:
Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Oh for goodness sake *sigh*, I swear that drop was a death fall, maybe I always scooped in the wrong place and it is right at the edge of splat height? I think I will just steel off the entire upper platforms. The enormous L2 fall distance is a real pain.
Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Well people are getting the correct 180 Flip which is really what it was always about, I don't think the intended solution is really any more interesting than this so I'll just allow it at this point :thumbsup:
Egypt 2 The Hardening Chamber - Exactly intended :thumbsup:
Egypt 6 Tutankhamun's Tiny Tomb - Still the right idea, so not bothered that you managed to get the glue pour to work right there :thumbsup:
Egypt 7 Inner Sanctum - OK knowing what's intended you're honestly not even all that far off the right idea, just using the miner on the wrong piece of terrain, so whatever, it stays in. :thumbsup:
Egypt 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes - I tried again and again to prevent that central pit from being properly glue pourable, but just couldn't do it, so this doesn't surprise me (it needs to slope down to prevent another backroute). Also it looks like making the edge of the top ledge flat has enormously reduced the number of sand pourers you need. I will probably slightly reduce the number of sand pourers, should also make your almost backroutes much less tenable. Otherwise you have the right idea so actually I'm not too fussed. :thumbsup:
Space 7 Satellite Junk - As you can tell because you saved a platformer, that's not exactly intended, but it works and I'm fine with it :thumbsup:
Space 9 Space Station Skylem - Wow! :lem-mindblown: What a cool solution. I'm happy to keep that in, very impressive :thumbsup:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on May 05, 2017, 07:10:51 PM

I solved both new tribes and the updated levels, except the totally mysterious Sport 4 (Nice catch). One comment to Classic in general: Can you swap the title and the requirement, so that the "lose xy" is displayed on the second line? This would look a lot better, in my opinion. Screenshots attached as usual.

Cave (click to show/hide)

1) Nice level, even though I first tried to use the Icarus wings at the top and then build at the middle platform, so that the runner turns around and I can fan the right-facing paraglider on the lower platform to throw the spear. I very much suspect this can be done, even though I didn't manage to do so.
2) Not my favorite, but nothing to complain about, either.
3) Very good level. :thumbsup:
4) The stomper has to be placed pixel-precise in this level, so that the second runner catches the ground on the upper platform and doesn't splat. Note that the placement as shown in the first screenshot is incorrect. I really don't think so much precision is necessary for this level.
5) This has to be a glaring backroute.
6) One can fan the paraglider from the starting platform directly to the exit platform. This was quite unexpected. Moreover please lower the left edge of the exit platform a little bit, because currently it's very difficult to turn the icarus wings without cancelling them directly (which causes the second runner to arrive too early at the basher). Apart from these issues a nice level.
7) The paraglider builds in the first screenshot in order to be fanned through the small gap (while still facing left) into the water. I am not a fan of so precise fanning.
8) Another solution that is almost certainly a backroute.
9) Very nice level.
10) Heavy multitasking at the beginning, which allows me to ignore most of the level.

Classic (click to show/hide)

1) Nice, easy beginning here.
2) I am fairly sure, that my solution is a backroute. But on the other hand I really, really hope the intended solution does not use the "Eye of the Needle"-trick (which was already annoying to pull off in L1, but should even harder in L2).
3) I don't know why the lemmings crawl to the top of the steel block, which is only annoying. And I suspect somehow that I should have used the climbers somewhere...
4) Here are two solution, both losing only one lemming. The first one requires very precise timing of the crowd to block the climber. The second one makes use of the huge fall distance in L2.
5) The other levels are better.
6) Excellent level. :thumbsup: But I lose only 3 lemmings, not 4.
7) I am fairly sure that my save-all solution is not quite intended.
8) Again, I managed to save all lemmings. Nice level.
9) The L2 assignment rules are absolutely annoying here, because they prefer blockers over walkers when assigning builders. :( As one needs to start the backwards builders rather high, this causes lots of problems. How about lowering the vertical distance by 8 pixels?
10) Another excellent level. :thumbsup:

Beach (click to show/hide)

5) I really hope this is finally the intended solution. Very good.
6) And another one, where I am hopeful to have the intended solution.
7) Here I am fairly certain that the long glider movement through the whole level is 100% intended. Great level!
9) But this smells like a backroute, especially as my previous solution was much more interesting.

Egypt (click to show/hide)

7) While watching Simon and geoo's video, I came up with this alternative solution.

Space (click to show/hide)

4) I repeat the Space 2 trick and fire a bazooka on a magno booter. Apart from the frame-precise assignment of the platformer that follows, a great solution.
10) Interesting that lemmings keep magno-booting after teleporting...

Sport (click to show/hide)

3) Interesting solution, but I doubt that without your hint on the shimmier mechanics I would have ever found this solution. The level does not in any way encourage the player to try assigning shimmiers to dangling shimmiers, so it's pretty likely that players who don't know about this, will never ever try it.
4) Still unsolved. By far the hardest level in the whole pack.
5) My previous solution still works, even though assigning the shimmier needs a lot of precision.
6) Next backroute, but this time taking the upper route.
7) I had to find another way to get the runner down there to create the platform. But it still feels very hackish...
8) I am fairly sure you can see what trick I tried, and I am perfectly sure it can be done. But unfortunately I could never manage to stop the builder at the correct height and then start the pole vaulter at the correct position.
9) It already was an excellent level, but now got even better! :thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
10) It shouldn't come as a big surprise: My backroute still works after slight modification. :P

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: geoo on May 05, 2017, 08:50:08 PM

Solved the remaining updated levels, except for Sports 4 (pretty stumped on that one). I haven't touched the new levels yet, though we might try them out with Simon tomorrow night.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Beach 9: Amazing level, I had the main ideas for quite the while, but everything fell short a little bit until I figured the one-way stacker.
Beach 10: I basically solved this one during the last video stream with Simon, but my lemmings splatted on the final stacker pile, because they landed on the lower two pixels of it. Just shifting the pile actually solves the level. I realized though that I was actually wasting two stackers in my solution from the stream, so now I can actually just stack two at the bottom to make it safe, leaving me with one stacker to spare. I wonder if the intended solution differs a bit from this? Execution was a bit annoying in some places, especially the stacker at the very beginning and then getting the flame thrower go in the right direction when releasing the crowd.
Egypt 7: On your previous comment, I feel like my solution still skips two main ideas, first the long basher extended using pourers,
 and second turning the climber after it's facing left. My solution is easily fixed just extending the block that I mine through horizontally,
 so maybe you could just do that. I think what I believe to be the intended solution is much more elegant that my hackjob.
Sports 2: Smart solution here, took me a while to see and was very satisfying once I spotted it.
Sports 3: Agree, if you require the behaviour earlier already then you won't get stuck on not knowing the behaviour, because it's not the only thing that's to the level (again, nice use of the runner physics).
Sports 5: The trick is kinda neat, but not to easy to pull off.
Sports 6: Got some skills left over, so I wonder if this is intended.
Sports 7: Another hackjob solution, I believe you have something more elegant in mind here (of which I haven't figured out the details yet).
Sports 8: Lovely trick and witty title here. I wonder if your setup is slightly different as I have leftover skills.
Sports 9: Already found the intended solution last time, so no screenshots. Amazing level.
Sports 10: Probably a bit closer to the intended solution than the shortcuts, but still a couple of skills left over.

EDIT: Finally solved Sports 4, but it's quite hackish.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The first platformer has to be precise, and you have to assign the shimmier as soon as the brick is there. It will jump into the sloped ceiling and turn around, climb up at the right but stop climbing due to the platformer brick.
To get the lemming there in the first place, assign a runner, pole vaulter, the climber and shimmier to get up the second ledge.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 05, 2017, 09:14:26 PM

Thanks again Nepster. I'd like to push an update before tomorrow's possible stream, so thanks for finding more backroutes.

Beach (click to show/hide)

5 Turn the Tide - Intended :thumbsup:
6 Hang Sixty - Good enough, I'm not going to change this level any more :thumbsup:
7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - Intended :thumbsup:
9 Take the Plunge - I should have known that I shouldn't have been so confident about making two builders from the lower start platform a safe drop wouldn't lead to a backroute, but I think fixing the top half will make it all OK, and I really didn't want things to be so close to the splat limit if I could help it. Delaying lemmings with a flamethrower blast so you can build at the top is interesting, and that's really the backroute here.

Cave (click to show/hide)

1 Introducing: Cavelems - Intended :thumbsup: I really hope the other way round can't be done, it was actually very hard to stop it but I couldn't pull it off in this version so I'm feeling OK about it.
2 Take a Quick Stab - Intended :thumbsup:, well OK actually you're meant to use 2 spearers at the top but I knew it could only be done with one but it seemed a bit hackish but whatever.
3 Facing Extinction - Intended :thumbsup: Glad you like it!
4 Get Stuck In - Intended :thumbsup: Unfortunately the terrain available in this tribe is an almighty pain to work with which is why the stomper is even needed here, I didn't think it was quite that pixel precise, I'll see what I can do about it, maybe the mushroom needs some steel at the top, if that works. I'll try something.
5 Flappy Lem - hahaha oh dear!
6 Survival of the Fastest - Exactly intended :thumbsup: The parachuter being able to be pushed that far may be unexpected but unfortunately the parachuter is ridiculously flexible like that and I have to work with it. I will look into dropping the height of the exit platform.
7 The Dactyl of Terror - Pretty much intended :thumbsup: I suspected some may not like this idea but hey I was running out of ideas hahaha, but seriously it's easier to pull off if you build right at the bottom of that ledge in my experience and the landscape has to be tight due to limitations in both the tileset and the parachuter mechanics. Not too sure what I can do about this unfortunately.
8 Dino Might - Curses! Foiled by my cute decoration! Will have to steel that off it seems.
9 The Descent of Lemming - Exactly intended, hooray! :thumbsup:
10 Reinventing the Wheel - Wow, nice and clever backroute! It has to go though.

Classic (click to show/hide)

I will take a look at changing the position of the save requirement in the level titles and we can see if that's better
1 Needs No Intro - Hmmm... you actually backrouted this, but I could just keep it in because it is the first level. I'll fix it and then we'll see how it goes from there.
2 Richard's Cliff - Oh hmmm nice backroute! Easily fixed though.
3 Hangman - I think in L2 blockers shoving lemmings next to a wall makes them think they are trapped and makes them crawl. I will need to look over the other levels and watch out for this. Also this is definitely a backroute but one that is easily fixed at least.
4 Escort Mission - Well I think I can stop both of these, ensuring that the climber is not the blocker using very precise timing is unfortunate, I suspected it could be done, will have to think about how to solve that particular issue.
5 Overflow - Aaaah such an obvious backroute in hindsight. I know how to fix this one easily enough though!
6 Mt. Molehill - I didn't consider using a dig + builder to turn the lemming around and now I feel dumb. You know what, I'm going to change the skills and save requirement to make this the official solution! :thumbsup:
7 Pillar Thriller - Indeed, not entirely intended, but nice backroute! I can fix it though.
8 The Lowlands - The pesky dig + build turn-around trick strikes again! Oh man, I seriously don't know how to solve this one :( My lack of knowledge and experience of basic lemmings tricks causing me problems.
9 Spiral Stairs - Well, this backroute is a problem, but one I can fix, I hope!
10 The Water Tower - Nice solution! :D Only slightly off the intended solution, but I think I can fix it!

Egyptian (click to show/hide)

7 The Inner Sanctum - Sadness! :( But fixable with more steel.

Space (click to show/hide)

4 Gravity Chamber - How did you save the jumper here? I guess you only need one to climb up the starting area? Well I think I can fix that. The rest is pretty close to intended, good enough.
10 Alternate Dimension - Yes, it is quite cool, it's what people were missing from level 8 Space Rescue, and I decided was too mean to rely on as not obvious hence why I decided not to fix the backroute. I'm gonna double-check if this exact solution is not doable in Space 1 and if so, I'll leave it in, as really that's all I cared about fixing.

Sports (click to show/hide)

3 Cliffside Hangout - Exactly intended :thumbsup: I will try to make this particular mechanic enforced to use earlier in the level, I think that is all I can do to try and make this easier to figure out.
4 Nice Catch! - I will move this to later in the tribe. I personally think it's really easy, but I'll take everyone's word for it that it is hard.
5 - Give It the Runaround - I have decided, I'm just going to trash this level and reuse the intended mechanic in a better way.
6 Tour De Farce - Ahhhh looks like some steel is in order.
7 The Home Stretch - It's funny, because the runner was really only meant as a a convenience because of the long walk at the end, I will tweak the level to get rid of it and that should kill this particular backroute.
8 Pole position - The right idea, and almost exactly intended, just bash out the bottom half of that area too and then the little pointy spike in the ground shows the correct place to assign the pole vaulter ;P Not much I can do to KO this particular fiddlier not-quite-right solution, I don't think. Level is a bit lame anyway but this was the only way to make the trick work so don't know what to do about it, maybe make the block you build from half as high so can't pole vault from this high up due to lack of builders, I'll see.
9 Uphill Obstacle Course - Exactly intended :thumbsup:
10 Pass the Baton - Hahaha I feel so stupid. :-[

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 05, 2017, 10:15:50 PM

Thanks again geoo.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Beach 9 Take the Plunge - OK given how hard this level is I don't want to fix this slightly unintended solution, the ideas or mostly right and there are still cool tricks so I'll leave it in. I can think of how to fix it but I'm not going to :thumbsup: In case you are curious, and because I'm happy to spoil it to you now, the intended solution was as follows:

Major spoilers (click to show/hide)

1) Have a worker lemming build the first bridge, dive onto the bucket platform, and build the second bridge.
2) Surf over to spade platform, and hang glide all the way up with 2 gliders to build third bridge.
3) Dive between bridges using divers small horizontal speed to miss bottom bridge and land back in water, surf and build stacker.
4) Release both crowds.

Beach 10 Toasted Clam Sand-wiches - So you're not the first person to find this backroute. It's alright, this level is quite hard and fiddly and you've spent so long on it that I'm not too fussed about fixing it. I think after a certain point I need to allow certain close-enough solutions to work on hard levels because I don't want people to spend forever and get annoyed. The intended solution isn't all that much more exciting, but does avoid having to worry about crowd control. Again, I'm happy to just spoil it if you are interested:

Major spoilers (click to show/hide)

1) Use flamethrower to avoid left-most clam.
2) Stack up parasol, most of crowd will get trapped on right and about 3 on the left, but that's fine, this will remove crowd control problems later.
3) Stack twice to pass bucket, and flame thrower on ramp to get to the water, surf and double-stack near exit like you do here.
4) Flame thrower to free lone lemmings on opposite side of stacker and swap places with the crowd, stack twice to climb up hut.
5) On yellow hut, use stacker and after one brick immediately cancel with scooper to turn around to scoop towards crowd and send crowd to the exit.

Egypt 7 Inner Sanctum - OK so the issue here is that both of the two main ideas you listed here are unintended, but Simon and Nepster's extend-the-basher backroute is so cool I want to leave it in. Turning the climber around was supposed to be a fail state and only isn't because of the red-herring steel I put in what was supposed to make the miner look obvious where it was meant to go that allows the cool backroute to work. I will have a go at fixing your hackish solution and see if it is better that way.
Sports 2 Double-back on Yourself - Exactly intended :thumbsup:
Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Exactly intended :thumbsup: Will make the change to make the double-shimmy trick required at the start for sure.
Sports 5 Give it the Run Around - This is the same as Nepster's backroute, but I'm gonna throw this level in the bin anyway, I have a better idea for it. not gonna spoil what was intended here as to not give away the central trick nobody found yet.
Sports 6 Tour de Farce - You and Nepster again pulling off a similar backroute.
Sports 7 The Home Stretch - Blaaarg! Better make that block steel!
Sports 8 Pole Position - Pretty much intended :thumbsup: The basher was to cancel the builder at the right height if you have only one lemming do both builders, and the runner is just a convenience for the long boring walk, so I'm cool with this!
Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Oh dear, it looks like I've spent all this time teaching you all the double-shimmier trick that I totally forgot about it here. Oh man, this is gonna be a tough fix!

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 06, 2017, 02:58:18 PM

Version 8 attached to the first post. Another big update. Neoclassic won't be updated just yet in case more changes are needed after the possible upcoming stream.

v08 changelog:

• Beach 7 Lifeguard to the Rescue - More steel *sigh*
• Cave 4 Get Stuck In - At last, adding steel for quality of life purposes instead of backroute fixes.
• Cave 5 Flappy Lem - This, on the other hand, is steel to fix a backroute.
• Cave 6 Survival of the Fastest - Terrain tweaks for quality of life.
• Cave 8 Dino Might - More backroute fixes involving steel.
• Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Another backroute fix involving steel.
• Classic level titles now put the lose info after the main title. Some titles changed slightly to better accommodate this.
• Classic 1 Needs No Intro - Use steel to fix backroute.
• Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Use steel to fix backroute.
• Classic 3 Hangman - Use steel to fix backroute.
• Classic 4 Escort Mission - Major revisions, skills also changed slightly.
• Classic 5 Overflow - Now a Lose 0 level, trap removed.
• Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Now a Lose 3 level, skills reduced slightly.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Backroute fixes, number of builders reduced by 1.
• Classic 8 The Lowlands - Major revisions, skill changes, now Lose 2.
• Classic 9 Spiral Staircase - Backroute fix by moving some terrain.
• Classic 10 The Water Tower - Backroute fix by swapping a Basher for a Miner.
• Egypt 7 Inner Sanctum - Backroute fixes.
• Egypt 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes - Removed 5 sand pourers due to previous changes making things need less resources.
• Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Changed beginning of level to show off necessary mechanic in the hope that people more likely to figure it out. Added shimmier.
• Sports 4 Nice Catch! - Now Sports 8, small adjustment made to reduce chance of backroute due to skill randomly failing.
• Sports 6 (now 5) Tour De Farce - A number of backroute fixes.
• Sports 7 (now 6) The Home Stretch - A number of backroute fixes. Removed Runner skill.
• Sports 8 (now 7) Pole Position - Minor change to make execution a bit easier. One basher removed.
• Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Backroute fixes.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on May 07, 2017, 09:22:31 AM

I solved Nice Catch on stream, then raced geoo in Cavelems and Classic.

Vod of my play, with geoo's and my voice (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/140596890)
Vod of geoo's play (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/140624809)

Kieran and Raymanni stayed in chat the entire time, thanks!

---

geoo won the Cavelem race by 2 minutes, really close. I won the Classic race because geoo didn't want to backroute Richard's Cliff.

The races have been good fun, looking forward to have more!

Ideally, I'd manage to include geoo's broadcast into my own stream, in a corner. I've looked into local RTMP servers, and while I can test-stream to a server running on my own machine, I haven't managed to watch from it yesterday.

Rage sources, sorted by severity, 1 is severest:

• L2 has abysmal assignment code.
• L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.
• Tiring after 3 hours of Jazz runs, then 6 hours of L2 racing.
• L2 offsets assigned builders and blockers towards the right.
• Nicely rarely: Unnecessary demand for execution in Kieran's designs. Out of the 25 levels that I played on stream, I suggested at most two easenings of execution, in Spiral Staircase and Bass the Baton. Well done, Kieran, in keeping this number low, I know you kept an eye on this!

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: ccexplore on May 07, 2017, 11:21:01 AM

Quote from: Simon on May 07, 2017, 09:22:31 AM

L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.

Well, technically there kind of is (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1109.msg33029#msg33029) (and made easier with DOSBox (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1259.0)), just that it's probably not intended and more to the point, you can't go backwards which is kind of the important part.  (Also you can't use that method during fanning, but maybe that's a blessing since I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a level that requires ultra-precise fanning.)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: grams88 on May 08, 2017, 11:54:45 PM

I'll need to give those levels a try, those look very nice and would bring back memories of playing the old lemmings tribes :thumbsup:. I bet those will be a lot harder than the old tribes levels.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: mobius on May 09, 2017, 12:01:33 AM

Quote from: ccexplore on May 07, 2017, 11:21:01 AM

Quote from: Simon on May 07, 2017, 09:22:31 AM

L2 has no framestepping, but I'm used to framestepping.

Well, technically there kind of is (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1109.msg33029#msg33029) (and made easier with DOSBox (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1259.0)), just that it's probably not intended and more to the point, you can't go backwards which is kind of the important part.  (Also you can't use that method during fanning, but maybe that's a blessing since I can't imagine anyone wanting to play a level that requires ultra-precise fanning.)

As someone new to fanning; it's ultra annoying even as however non-precise it currently is.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 11, 2017, 10:52:58 PM

Attached the first post you will find version 9, as well as version 2 of Neoclassic! This should be the last update before the next tribe, which might take a small while to come out. Two things of note here:
1) I have decided to get rid of bad levels, so some levels will no longer be updated until I have thought up a replacement for them, so no need to give feedback for those.
2) While it was cute for the Classic Tribe to always have at least one of each skill so the full skill panel was always present, to fix a backroute I had to get rid of a skill in one of the levels, so I've decided to just wipe pointless skills from each classic level. This does not mean all skills used in the solution have gone, just those that didn't even serve to be a red herring.

v09 changelog:

• Beach 4 Cross Shore Winds - Level removed. Replaced with new level, What a Scoop!
• Cave 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Moved decoration to fix backroute.
• Cave 3 Facing Extinction - Slightly lower exit platform to reduce precision.
• Cave 7 The Dactyl of Terror - Removed misleading decoration and water now goes to screen edge.
• Cave 8 Dino Might - Stomper added, builder removed, trapdoor moved, water area extended further to the right, release rate substantially increased.
• Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Backroute fix by making much bigger gap in middle of level + release rate tweaks for easier crowd control.
• Classic 1 Needs No Intro - Removed unnecessary skills.
• Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Removed unnecessary skills, steel to fix backroute.
• Classic 3 Hangman - Removed unnecessary skills, added builder + minor terrain tweak to make execution easier.
• Classic 4 Escort Mission - Removed unnecessary skills, steel to fix backroute, removed need for builder.
• Classic 5 Overflow - Removed unnecessary skills, moved trapdoor, minor tweaks to make easier execution and make digging tools use more obvious.
• Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Removed steel and water pit to remove backroute.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Removed unnecessary skills, added steel to fix backroute.
• Classic 9 Spiral Staircase - Removed unnecessary skills, lowered height of platforms by 1 grid space and made some other general adjustments to accomodate this, added more time to clock. It seems that worries about backroute as a result of lowering height of platforms is only doable in theory in L2, in practice the blocker fields are so huge it is basically impossible to pull off, but upped release rate to try and prevent backroute that would now be possible if you can pull it off. Due to higher lemming step height in Neolemmix, NeoClassic has had further small tweaks to platform height.
• Classic 10 The Water Tower - Removed unnecessary skills, increased height of bottom of steel next to trapdoor.
• Sports 4 Give it the Run Around - Level removed. Replaced with new level, Rise to the Challenge
• Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Less pole vaulter precision + backroute fix + new cute and quicker opening sequence.

Levels destined for the bin in a future update:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Classic 8 The Lowlands
• Egypt 4 Carpet Race
• Space 6 Hull Breach

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on May 12, 2017, 02:08:32 AM

Excellent update!

Solved all Classic and Cavelem that differ between v8 and v9. Videos: Mount Molehill (http://www.lixgame.com/etc/kieran-mount-molehill.mp4) (11 MB), All other Classic/Cavelem (http://www.lixgame.com/etc/kieran-v9-classic-cavelem.mp4) (280 MB)

Comments if video is tl;dw, most OK, some backroutes (click to show/hide)

Cave 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Backroute? Build before falling to the exit, use runner wallkick to turn during fall, fan this right-facing runner-parachuter towards where he can spear.
Cave 3 Facing Extinction - Nice change, didn't play because already solved on stream with intended route.
Cave 7 The Dactyl of Terror - Intended? 1st lem builds, 2nd lem parachutes. Let parachutable turn, then I build with left-facing parachutable to give him enough height to open the parachute.
Cave 8 Dino Might - Intended? I stomp with the last lem to spawn, keeping everybody elsel in the high pit.
Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Heavy backroute? Left hatch: When first lem falls off the starting platform, make him runner. Runnable club-bashes towards the left. Runnable builds. Everybody from left hatch goes home. Assign parachuter-swimmer to any lem from the left hatch and have the parachutable-swimmable spear at the right side of the level. Build twice to get the parachutable home.

Classic 1 Needs No Intro - Same as before.
Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Easier than before, because steel (below the exit) that reaches all the way towards the bottom felt like a hint for me. I solved this very quickly on the video. Intended? Climb, build off the top left, block. Send another climber, let the blocker turn the 2nd climbable, dig with the 2nd climbable. Build over exit, mine.
Classic 3 Hangman - Same as before, easier to turn first climbable, good.
Classic 4 Escort Mission - Backroute? While the climber wants to get ahead, I dig with the crowd, the digger timing is impeccable. Climber bashes through the triangular obstacle with the square block on top. At this point, the basher is overtaken by a non-climbable, while only 0 or 1 lems turn in the basher hole and die. Block with the overtaking lem at the very right. This route loses 1 or 2 lems in total, but the level is lose-2.
Classic 5 Overflow - I had the intended route on stream? Didn't get it the first few tries and didn't bother to re-solve. Crowd seems to approach the worker very fast near the end.
Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Backroute? Same solution as before on my stream. I assign blocker to cancel the long miner at the far right. Loses 1 exploder, 1 left-side waypaver, 1 blocker.
Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Intended? See video, too complex to describe. See video for backroute attempts, but I didn't find any backroutes.
Classic 9 Spiral Staircase - You didn't have to lower the middle platform, you only had to lower the high platform. But good either way!
Classic 10 The Water Tower - Watched geoo, didn't re-solve. Didn't try backroute again, looks like backroute wouldn't work.

Not 100 % sure why you'd like to cut The Lowlands. My rage came largely from being tired and from bad assignments. Maybe you feel like the level is too obvious and long?

Hangman is the perfect onescreener, I like this level so much. The next-most favorites are Richard's Cliff, Water Tower, Facing Extinction, Stuck In, Descent of Lemming.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 12, 2017, 08:08:45 PM

Thanks Simon, videos are always helpful :thumbsup:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cave 1 Introducing : Cavelms- Yeah this is another backroute. I think I can fix it, part of that level I think was only necessary to block a backroute in a previous version and I think getting rid of it will work. I'll have to check.
Cave 7 The Dactyl of Terror - Intended :thumbsup:
Cave 8 Dino Might - Intended :thumbsup:
Cave 10 Reinventing the wheel. Yeah this is a backroute. Hmmmm. This level has proven very tough to fix up so far, will have to think about this one.

Classic 2 Richard's Cliff - Intended :thumbsup: I went heavier on the steel because the level is not meant to be too hard and in your race you guys spent ages here and were saying things about how the long bash solution must be intended, so I wanted to bop that on the head. If you think it would be better without the steel going too far down, then that's easy enough to change. There are always tough decisions to be made about how much red herrings are OK in terms of letting people go really far down the path of something that just barely but doesn't quite work. Is it better to let people do that, or try to make it quicker to come to the conclusion that it is wrong?
Classic 4 Escort Mission - Aaarg, I spent so long trying to fix Nepster's original backroute that I didn't realise I just went and re-introduced it. I think it's time to resort to the last resort here, extreme simplification.
Classic 5 Overflow - The changes here were really nothing to do with backroute fixing and more to do with making the opening quicker so replaying is faster, and removing the digger skill I never needed but felt forced to used under the old "must have at least one of each skill" theme. This is a minor backroute and I think the intended solution is slightly more interesting, will have to look at if I really want to try and enforce it, but I'm not too fussed. Regardless, I should tweak the release rate to make crowd assignment simpler.
Classic 6 Mount Molehill - Pretty much intended, but I bash in the bomber hole instead of mine, then mine back to the crowd. This is easier to execute and is why there is a different looking block in that area, it's a guide for where to start mining, but your solution works and is basically the same.
Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - A smart backroute, but still a backroute. More steel is the order of the day, perhaps.

I want to cut The Lowlands not because it made anybody rage, but because it was fundamentally broken in a way I no longer wanted to try and solve, and the backroute fixes I'd already applied left me unhappy enough with the level that I think I can do the same concept in a better way.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: ccexplore on May 12, 2017, 09:14:46 PM

Quote

There are always tough decisions to be made about how much red herrings are OK in terms of letting people go really far down the path of something that just barely but doesn't quite work. Is it better to let people do that, or try to make it quicker to come to the conclusion that it is wrong?

Yeah, definitely a tricky balance.  I do think it probably becomes a problem once the herring gets to a point where it is falsely convincing the player that they just need to tweak the execution details more to make the herring work.  This is particularly problematic as Lemmings 2 skills open up to much more tweaking than the classic skills, for example think the precise aim of a projectile skill or the precise fanning of a fanning skill, or the precise flinging provided by a nearby explosion.  It's one thing to mislead the player into a simpler almost-solution that once played out a few times with a few variations, the player can be reasonably confident that it won't work out and it's time to consider something more different.  It's another if it can easily rathole the player into sticking with the herring far longer than they should, thinking it's just a matter of precision/tweaking.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on May 12, 2017, 10:14:48 PM

Played through V9.

Beach (click to show/hide)

4) Miner-miner-cancelling is fortunately easier than in L1, expect for the horrible assignment rules of L2. That's why I needed the last miner and flame-thrower to turn one lemming.

Cave (click to show/hide)

8) Very nice level. I don't need one of the stompers.
10) Left half of my previous solution still works. For the right half, I needed to utilize a lemming from the left half.

Classic (click to show/hide)

1) Just moved the digger pit a bit...
2) Crawling the first :evil:
3) Very nice level, but the digger position is rather precise.
4) Pretty much the same solution as last time, but the timing problems got even worse due to the missing floater. I still lose only one lemming.
5) There is only one possible approach left, and it works.
7) I tried to solve the level in a usual way first, and succeeded. But then I noticed a much simpler solution: Crawling the second :evil:
8) Crawling the third :evil:
9) Ok, slight modification of the previous solution: Crowd gets blocked again on the bottom platform instead of the middle one.
10) Crawling the fourth :evil:

Sport (click to show/hide)

3) The additional shimmier mad a new backroute possible. :(
4) I am fairly sure this is not intended. The crowd is freed by a basher-staircase (stopped with a shimmier).
5) Very precise timing. The first lemming of the crowd even needs to be delayed with a bit of air-bashing, or the platformer will not finish his work early enough.
6) Same solution as last time. I noticed that turning at the right edge can be simplified compared to my previous solution.
10) Ok, this fixes my backroute for good :P. My first very cool trick didn't work, so I found another one...
PS: Unfortunately Simon's stream ruined "Nice Catch" for me. :'(

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {6/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 13, 2017, 04:46:21 PM

Thanks Nepster.

Beach (click to show/hide)

4) Eh. I'm not too bothered by this. If you want to deliberately make things fiddly for yourself then knock yourself out :P

Cave (click to show/hide)

10) Yeah this is roughly the same thing Simon did, so I've got some work to do here.

Classic (click to show/hide)

So, crawling routes using a blocker are so powerful that I think I'm simply going to not fix them. There is no way I can fix some of those crawling routes, particularly level 10, so I'm just not going to.
4) This one needs more work.
5) So the official solution is largely the same but slightly more interesting, I'm not sure if I want to try and enforce it.
7) So on the non-crawling route, it was mostly correct, I can make a minor tweak to fix it, but there will always be a Neolemmix miner-turning-on-steel backroute available so not sure if it is worth making that tweak.
9) Well this is only a minor difference to the intended solution. I'm not sure what I can do about this with a particular major rework that I think would ruin the simplicity of the level, so.... I dunno, it might stay as is.

Sports (click to show/hide)

3) OK I think this is an easy fix.
4) I am still not used to that particular basher trick, but I think this is easily fixable.
5) I'm a bit confused about what happened here. You used all of the shimmiers to make the leader of the crowd jump ahead? Thanks for finding that this is possible.
6) Maybe I've been thinking about this wrong the whole time. I think I need to rethink this bottom-right corner.
10) This is basically intended, nice work :thumbsup: I thought the miner would always splat with this particular configuration of platforms, but given the level is already quite tough, I'm OK with this.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 17, 2017, 09:38:19 PM

It's time for another update! NeoClassic is also updated, as always the most recent files can be found in attached to the opening post.

v10 changelog:

• New Tribe: Medieval Tribe!
• Cavelems 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Removed some terrain to fix backroute.
• Cavelems 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Minor terrain tweaks to fix backroute.
• Classic 4 Escort Mission and Classic 8 The Lowlands swapped positions.
• New level: Classic 4 Humble Bundle replaces The Lowlands.
• Classic 5 Overflow - Major revisions, skill changes, level is back to being Lose 1.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - More steel, one less builder, some other decorative tweaks. NOTE: I am aware of a backroute exclusive to NeoClassic due to gameplay mechanics differences.
• Classic 8 Escort Mission - Backroute fixed with lots of steel.
• Sports 6 The Home Stretch and Sports 9 Uphill Obstacle Course swapped positions.
• Sports 3 Cliffside Hangout - Extended gap and added second platformer to fix backroute.
• Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Minor steel addition to fix backroute.
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Terrain tweaks + 2 less shimmiers + release rate a smidgen higher.
• Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Changed bottom-right corner of level. Added shimmier skill.

Levels destined for the bin:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Egypt 4 Carpet Race
• Space 6 Hull Breach

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on May 18, 2017, 10:34:18 AM

geoo and I blind-raced Medieval on Sunday, March 21. The vods remain availabe for 14 days: Simon's vod (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/145957819) geoo's vod (https://www.twitch.tv/videos/145962737)

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on May 18, 2017, 10:32:42 PM

Medieval Tribe (click to show/hide)

1) Actually one of the harder levels of this tribe, but a great solution!
2) The easiest level of the tribe.
3) Getting the shimmier over the water basin was the biggest problem, because a roller always hits the ceiling there. So one has to add an arrow first.
4) Fairly sure this is a backroute. Very precise miner placement.
5) Nice level. I would move the starting position to the left edge of the level. Otherwise one has to do this each time at the beginning.
6) Amazing solution! :thumbsup: Fortunately I didn't need any of the rollers... As an extra a screenshot of some weird slider bug.
7) Great idea to use arrows to pave the way of the slider/shimmier across the ceiling. :thumbsup:
8) The first arrow in my solution was unnecessary. The other levels were better, or this is a backroute.
9) After having two ideas that require terrible amount of precision, I got this solution with somewhat less. The main problem is getting the two arrows to the steel wall correct, so that the climber may reach the ceiling on the left.
10) I am fairly sure, you intended something more elaborate...

Updated levels (click to show/hide)

Cave 10) The main problem was getting the builder for the runner right, so that he swims in the correct direction.
Classic 5) Nice level. I only lose 1 lemming.
Classic 6) Fairly sure, this should also be possible with only 3 builders. I need the last one, because the final builder places only 11 bricks towards the exit, not the 12th one.
Classic 8) I sill lose only 1 lemming. :P
Classic 10) My first solution still works, but one has to free the blocker now with a miner from the crowd. This is possible, but unfortunately totally dependant on being very lucky.
Sport 4) Turning the climber at the right wall with a tumbling shimmier is possible, but needs some precision. I don't know whether this is intended.
Sport 5) This should be a lot closer to the intended solution, even though I no longer use the trampolin. Attaching the shimmier to a platformer's bridge under construction is not completely trivial, btw.
Sport 8) Ok, now I move all lemmings to the right exit. As I need no shimmer at all, this should still be a backroute.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 19, 2017, 08:06:40 PM

Thanks as always Nepster! Your thorough and speedy feedback has already helped this pack so immensely, I really appreciate all of your updates! I'll be looking to push another version out before Sunday's stream. If not today, then tomorrow.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Cave 10 Reinventing the Wheel - Exactly intended, good job :thumbsup:
Classic 4 Humble Bundle - Hmmm... I spent so long thinking about a solution that also works for NeoClassic that I missed something a lot more straightforward. Given that this level is actually significantly more difficult and precise in NeoClassic, I think what I'll do is repurpose the level idea for QFK1 in a way that works a bit better for L1, and come up with yet another replacement level for this pack, something that's a bit more friendly to working in both L1 and L2.
Classic 5 Overflow - Now you've got the right sort of idea :thumbsup: Not totally fussed that you might be able to spare a builder, maybe it opens a bit of a backroute in NeoClassic where the step height is larger, but whatever.
Classic 8 Escort Mission - This level is going to be the death of me haha, but... I've had a brilliant idea that I should have seen earlier. Expect a slightly more unexpected change to this in the next update.
Classic 10 The Water Tower - Oh man, this makes me quite sad, this is going to be very hard to deal with as it is hard to change anything here without messing up the intended solution, given the terrain restrictions in L2. BUT, I think I might be able to come up with something.... Will need to test it.
Medieval 1 Introducing: Medieval - Exactly intended :thumbsup: Not sure if it's just hard in general or if this is hard because it requires you to first learn a number of important interactions. I do honestly try to keep these starter levels somewhat simple but in some cases it can be hard to have exactly one of each skill work and have each skill show off what it does while still being easy.
Medieval 2 Joust Duet - Exactly intended :thumbsup:
Medieval 3 Ramp It Up - This backroute should be an easy fix.
Medieval 4 Roll With It - I know exactly how to fix this, although it does make the level slightly less interesting.
Medieval 5 Laying the Foundations - Bah! I knew you could turn around on that decorative little lump near the dragon but tried to make it work and couldn't. I must say your solution is pretty smart, but unfortunately it will have to go, and I know exactly how to do that.
Medieval 6 Going Full Circle - OK that first arrow is very clever :thumbsup: Your solution is largely intended and I can't see a way to fix your solution anyway so it stays :thumbsup: If you are wondering about the rollers, the intended solution is for the first arrow to be on the wall coming down from the ceiling where the second slider shimmies on the ceiling, slides onto the arrow, and rolls off. This leaves you one shimmier less, so the third slider, when landing on the last arrow, rolls off that instead of jumping.
Medieval 7 The Castle Cellar - Yeah this is pretty much correct :thumbsup: I am fine with the way you did this, only some small details different from what I do.
Medieval 8 Castle Invaders - Aaaarg! Looks like that little wooden overhang I added onto the first castle really did open up a backroute after all! Athough I think I also see another backroute issue with what you've done so will have to make some further changes anyway.
Medieval 9 Crate Expectations - A backroute I'm afraid, but one I know how to fix.
Medieval 10 Medi-Upheaval - OK this is annoying because I tried to pull off exactly this but couldn't get it to work, not considering that you could leave a very slightly unclimbable ledge and then mine it later. So I was really close with preventing this but it wasn't to be!
Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Bah! But I think it's fixable.
Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Yes this is closer to the right solution, but there's definitely an unfortunate issue here with trying to attach to the underside of a platformer in progress, which is definitely not intended. I think I can fix it.
Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Good grief the backroutes will never stop for this level hahaha. I feel a bit dumb for this particular one though. :(

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 20, 2017, 10:19:31 PM

Version 11 is attached to the opening post. I have not updated NeoClassic yet, as it's a pain to update and seems all feedback on the Classic Tribe so far has been from playing it in L2 anyway (but that's good as I'm primarily interested in what it's like to play in L2).


v11 changelog:

• Classic 4 Humble Bundle replaced with A Tight Squeeze, and moved to position 8, all levels inbetween moved down.
• Classic 7 (was 8) Escort Mission - Level is now Lose 3, digger replaced with exploder, added steel in numerous places.
• Classic 10 The Water Tower - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Egypt 4 Carpet Race replaced with new level, A Sticky Situation, and moved to position 9, all levels inbetween moved down.
• Medieval 3 Ramp It Up replaced with new level, Ye Olde Cavern, and swapped position with Medieval 4 Roll With It.
• Medieval 3 (was 4) Roll With It - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Medieval 5 Laying the Foundations - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Medieval 8 Castle Invaders - Removed Builder, added Archer and Shimmier. Removed wooden overhang.
• Medieval 9 Crate Expectations - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Medieval 10 Medi-Upheaval - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Tweaked terrain to fix backroute.
• Sports 9 The Home Stretch - Various tweaks to fix backroutes.

Levels destined for the bin:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Space 6 Hull Breach

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
Post by: geoo on May 25, 2017, 11:14:48 AM

Played through the new stuff from v11 (and v9 and v10 as I hadn't checked out all of that yet), except for Classic.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Egypt 6, Inner Sanctum: I'm still wondering what's intended here. I know my solution that abuses the miner to get through the very right block at the top (which feels quite cheap and still works), and there's Simon's with the extended basher.
Egypt 9, A Sticky Situation: Reminds me a bit of tiny tomb, just with a trickier setup. I somehow have the feeling that sealing the gap at the bottom and later mining it open is not intended.
Egypt 10, Crypt of Infinite Echoes: There's a solution with the miner and one without. Which/What are you trying to enforce here?

Beach 4, What a Scoop: First try, took me less than a minute to solve. That one was really easy.

Cave 1, Introducing: Cavelems; Cave 3, Facing Extinction; Cave 4, Get Stuck In, Cave 8, Dino Might:  I think I might have found these one during the race already, but I don't remember exactly.
Cave 7, The Dactyl of Terror: This is new and looks intended.
Cave 10, Reinventing the Wheel: This looks close to intended and uses all the skills. Pretty neat, my only issue is having the runner place a builder so he doesn't bump into the wall and turns around, that felt a bit hackish.

Classic 8, A Tight Squeeze: This looks intended as well, maybe the pillar at the top could extend a bit further to the right to make the timing easier. Getting that right took me a few tries, even though there's some leeway already.

Sports 10, Pass the Baton: Looks like another backroute, mining into the block at the top to turn the lemming while still allowing it to pole vault.
Sports 9, The Home Stretch: Pretty sure this is intended, really nifty solution here.
Sports 5, Tour De Farce: This solution is pretty clean, but saves a few shimmiers.
Sports 4, Rise to the Challenge: Pretty sure this is a backroute. The miner here is pixel precise.

I think by now I know more or less the intended solutions to Space, Cave and Beach, and most of Egypt.
Lifeguard to the Rescue and especially Take the Plunge are really cool (I don't think I commented on them before).

I also found another glitch: When a swimmer gets out of the water pit, you can assign a builder such that it starts building one pixel above the ground, i.e. floating in mid-air.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {7/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 25, 2017, 09:49:27 PM

Thanks for the comments geoo.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Egypt 6, Inner Sanctum: I've essentially officialised Simon and Nepster's basher extension solution for this level because it's so cool, so it's not going to get fixed. I will take another look at fixing your miner abuse though.
Egypt 9, A Sticky Situation: Yeah I was a bit worried that it was a bit similar to Tiny Tomb, but looking at your solution I realise that actually the whole level needs a major do-over, because in practice some of this stuff simply isn't going to work as I thought it would.
Egypt 10, Crypt of Infinite Echoes: So I realise now that I've been a bit dumb in terms of thinking I can't block your minerless solution, I totally can, but blocking the massive pile of sand solution is not really going to work. And in practice, the combination of sand and glue is really very easily abusable due to the odd way glue works with 45 degree slopes, and Nepster found an unfixable basher staircase solution. So maybe, this level is not really so great, and I should look to remove it and replace it with something else. Maybe that's for the best. I mean, it was always kind of slightly tedious anyway.

Beach 4, What a Scoop: Yeah, this level is easy and you got the intended solution :thumbsup:, but I hadn't really done much with the scooper so wanted a level about it and despite its easiness it's still way way better than the level it replaced. Not bad enough to do anything about I think.

All of your cave solutions there are intended :thumbsup: I agree that level 10 with the builder and runner dropping between the steel feels a bit hackish, but I think it's OK. I mean, I don't think it's too obscure for people to figure out or anything.

Classic 8, A Tight Squeeze: Completely intended, well done :thumbsup: I've already extended that pillar a bit and am worried that doing it too much might draw too much attention to it, it already extends far beyond the rest of the level. I think at the moment it's got enough leeway in it to not be an issue, if anything the precision of the miner is probably worse. Maybe I'll steel up the wood floor near the trapdoor.

Sports 10, Pass the Baton: Argh! Of course! Well easy enough to fix with some steel.
Sports 9, The Home Stretch: At last! The intended solution is found :thumbsup:.
Sports 5, Tour De Farce: At least people are now getting a lot closer, and this is an easy fix.
Sports 4, Rise to the Challenge: The first version before this level saw it's proper release had accounted for this but then I thought I'd rendered it impossible with the gap near the top, but nope looks like that particular mine is still possible. Hmmph. But I know how to fix it!

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 27, 2017, 06:33:20 PM

It's time for another Tribe! Neoclassic has also been updated. As always, downloads and new Tribe blurb in the opening post.

v12 Changelog:

• New Tribe: Polar Tribe!
• Classic 8 A Tight Squeeze - A little bit of quality-of-life friendliness.
• Egyptian 6 Inner Sanctum - Fixed geoo's backroute.
• Egyptian 9 A Sticky Situation - Is now an entirely different level, but with the same sort of central ideas as before.
• Egyptian 10 Crypt of Infinite Echoes replaced with new level, Keynes' Marginal Utility.
• Medieval 3 Roll With It - Made Simon's suggested tweak.
• Medieval 4 Ye Olde Cavern - Made quality-of-life terrain tweaks.
• Medieval 5 Laying The Foundations - Backroute fixes + moved to position 10, all other levels in-between moved down a position.
• Medieval 6 (was 7) The Castle Cellar - Terrain tweaks + remove need for one particular archer shot for quality of life. Two archers removed.
• Medieval 8 (was 9) Crate Expectations - Removed staricase and added second exit.
• Medieval 9 (was 10) Medi-Upheval - Terrain tweaks to fix backroute.
• Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - Backroute fix. Also realised that intended solution was actually luck based! So, made tweaks to fix that.
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce - Backroute fix.
• Sports 10 Pass the Baton - Backroute fix.

Levels destined for the bin:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
• Space 6 Hull Breach

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on May 28, 2017, 04:04:02 AM

Re-solved Introducing Cavelem, solved Laying the Foundations.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Introducing Cavelem: I don't assign the runner. I blow the worker behind the exit, turn him with a builder, then spear. The spearer feels precise, but I got it first try.

Laying the Foundations: This looks 100 % intended, even though I don't assign one shimmier. This has become much easier because no more red herrings in the dragon area. I knew the basic layout already, therefore I don't judge this level easy overall. I have more trouble with Medi-Upheaval now.

Kieran: geoo and I plan to race Polar on Sunday, June 4th, 18:00 UTC. Would that suit you?

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on May 28, 2017, 11:22:14 AM

Solved the Polar tribe and resolved (most) of the updated levels, except "Laying the Foundation".

Polar tribe (click to show/hide)

1) Nice intro level and of the right difficulty.
2) I am not a fan of this one. The first digger has to be almost pixel-precise, because the ice acts as steel. Then one has to platform/stack over the decorative moon, where the contrast between bricks and the moon is very low, and finally one has to assign the last digger at the left edge, but not touching the steel blocks. As the lemmings in the right crowd are not grouped, this is very dependant on luck.
3) Next level with assignment-rage. At the start one has to assign lots of skills next to each other to different lemmings. With the L2 assignment, this is extremely hard. Again one has to assign a platformer over the moon, where one cannot really tell when the lemming has finished his previous platform. Finally I would give one more minute: After having "solved" the level for the first time, I forgot the lemming upstairs and turned him too late into a climber. So I had to do all these assignments again. >:(
4) Excellent level. :thumbsup: But I would remove the iglu on the left side. At first I took this for another exit and moved all the lemmings to this one, only to wonder why they all die... And perhaps consider making the first miner block slightly smaller, because currently this level seems impossible if one has saved only 40 or 50 lemmings in the previous levels.
5) Pretty easy and nothing really special here.
6) Great idea.
7) Nice level. I suspect that my lower basher on the second block is not needed, because the delay of going all way to the left end of the level and back again is enough to finish the bridge over the second gap.
8) Great level idea, but sooooo much assignment-rage:
a) The platformers have to be placed at the very edge of the ice, because otherwise lemmings on the ice, who stand up will move left (on the latest platformer brick), then slide on the ice farther to the left, where they won't be able to reach the last platformer brick.
b) The timing at the top is very precise, because the digger has to be fast enough to stack at the next platform.
c) The placing of said digger is very precise: On the ledge won't work, because the digger will leave a ledge at the bottom of the digger tunnel and the crowd will move over the stacker wall. Too far to the right and the crwod will be too early and there won't be enough space to place the digger on the next platform between the ice and the stacker wall.
d) At the second platform digging down is very precise: First of all one has to place it in the small space between the ice and the stacker wall, and secondly one has to time it so that the non-platforming ice-skater will move to the left at the bottom of the digger tunnel. Alternatively one has to turn this ice-skater into a digger, but assigning to it in the crowd of usual lemmings again depends on being very lucky.
e) At the third platform, a crowd of lemmings will move to the left and here one has to assign the ice-skater.
f) Finally at the bottom, one has to turn a lemming with a stacker-skier combination. This is fine, but then turning the skier into a platformer at the edge of the ice is very annoying. Especially as this has to be done pixel-precise, see a).
9) Pretty easy.
10) Nice level, but again pretty easy.

Updated levels (click to show/hide)

Classic 7) I don't use one of the diggers and very likely this can be used to lose only 2 lemmings, instead of 3.
Classic 8) Here is a save-all solution. The miner coming from the left is pretty precise.
Classic 10) But this looks intended now.
Egypt 9) I suspect a backroute here, because I don't use two of the glue-pourers.
Egypt 10) Very good level. My first (also very neat solutions) failed because climbers don't turn at sand-pourers and neither can one fill a miner tunnel using a sand-pourer and two glue-pourers. Perhaps consider removing the sand-pourer altogether? The miner tunnel on the left can be filled with two or three fillers instead of the sand-pourer.
Medieval 4) Nice level, but I don't need the climber.
Medieval 5) Here is a potential solution, which failed for me only due to the time limit. But I started the shimmier pretty late, too. So there might be a good chance, that this solution actually works. I liked my previous solution much better.
Medieval 7) Not too much difference. I still don't use two of the shimmiers and one archer.
Medieval 9) I am not a fan of this level. First of all it is really not obvious that the roller hops over the gap at the left. But one expects him to hop over the exit due to the ledge at the top. This however doesn't work. Finally the last builder is very non-trivial, because there is a big crowd and one has to place him very precisely to reach the one pixel of the exit trigger area.
Medieval 10) Not solved again, because none of the three solutions that I found in V0.11 still work. :'( The only approach that I have requires several more shimmiers.
Sport 4) I didn't like builder-stretching in L1, and I still don't like it in L2. And turning at the right edge with a basher-shimmier combination looks like a hack-job solution.
Sport 5) Here are two way to move the crowd over the top.
Sport 9) I feel stupid for not seeing this backroute earlier. :lem-shocked:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 30, 2017, 09:53:41 PM

Thanks guys for the feedback. I'm most interested in fixing up Polar in time for the stream, so will focus my responses to your comments solely on Nepster's Polar Tribe playthrough right now, and will come back and respond to the rest once it is all fixed up.

Polar (click to show/hide)

1 Introducing: Polar - Exactly intended :thumbsup: but I imagine that's not a surprise.
2 Snow Drops - I will remove the moon, I thought it was cool but you're right that it's hard to see. For the rest of the level I'll make some changes, as this is an alternative solution that wants you do to luck-based things, so would like to remove that.
3 Snow Motion - Oh right, of course, you can just stack by the digger pit. And it's horrible to do too, also can stack underneath the trapdoor too. I can't do anything about the latter, so this level should just go. Will come up with a replacement.
4 Eskimomentum - Intended :thumbsup: I'm surprised you thought the igloo was an alternate exit but I'll remove it, also I should be able to increase the release rate to give leeway for less than max lemmings rather than mess with the layout.
5 Preparing for a Fall - This is a backroute, but unfortunately it seems to be impossible to fix because you never actually need to assign a climber, can just knock out the bottom of the stack with a digger, so unfortunately this level concept simply does not work. Will have to trash it and build a replacement.
6 Living Life on the Edge - A cool solution :thumbsup: Mostly intended, but you didn't use the second exit so I'll need to make a small tweak.
7 Forging Ahead - Another cool solution :thumbsup: I'm happy with your solution here, even if it's not quite the same as what I do. I was a bit worried about this level because L2 really wants you to just do lots of Hero levels and I wanted a level themed around digging and chaining skills and slowing down crowds, but thought it could end up super frustrating due to assignment rage. So the fact that you've enjoyed this level means this works for me and I don't want to risk changing anything. We'll see what happens in the stream.
8 Ice Ice Babies - I had major doubts about this level and should have listened to my own concerns. This was the first Polar level I built and wanted a level themed around freeing crowds from ice, but the ice has an issue in that the lemmings very slowly do move forward, about 1 pixel per "loop" so I had really big issues making it work.  Basically the core concept had issues and the whole thing ended up as a mess, so this will be Polar level #3 to go straight in the bin and be replaced. If you're interested in the intended solution here, you free the first lemming at the bottom, use all of your stackers in one big massive stack, then start to dig down, you then free a lemming at the top and use him to bounce off the stack, free the lemmings, and they go down a step and join the next group of sliding lemmings. This process repeats. The timing sucks, so not a very good level anyway :p
9 Snow Drifts - A clever backroute, but not even remotely close to the right solution, so will need a big reworking.
10 Santa's Big Dig - A big backroute, needs a substantial fix, but maybe I'll find a simple change to make.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on May 31, 2017, 04:38:30 PM

Regarding Polar 8:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I had the NeoLemmix assignment tools, then this would have been a great level and I still had fun finding the solution, even though it wasn't the intended one. So I am rather unhappy that you plan to throw this level away.
Perhaps just add something like 16 pixels more snow to the ledges and replace the spiky ends by something rounder (assuming your intended solution still works then)? I think this would already reduce the assignment problems a lot.
And then test it with geoo and Simon. If they rage too much, you can still replace the level afterwards. ;)   

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on May 31, 2017, 08:04:20 PM

New update in the opening post. I call this "The Cool Update" because every level changed is Polar. Haha get it? Cool, because all of the levels are cold themed? You know what, forget it. My jokes are wasted on you lot.

v13 chagelog:

• Polar 2 Snow Drops - Quality-of-life changes and backroute fix.
• Polar 3 Snow Motion replaced with new level, Ice And Easy, and swapped position with level 2 Snow Drops.
• Polar 4 Eskimomentum - Changed decorative igloo, and significantly reduced release rate.
• Polar 5 Preparing for a Fall replaced with new level, Catch a Snowflake.
• Polar 6 Living Life on the Edge - Made minor tweaks.
• Polar 8 Ice Ice Babies replaced with new level, Grotty Grotto, and moved to level 10.
• Polar 8 (was 9) Snow Drifts - Major reworking. Skills changed in a number of ways.
• Polar 9 (was 10) Santa's Big Dig - Backroute fix.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on June 01, 2017, 06:56:11 PM

Solved the updated Polar levels again: (click to show/hide)

2) Very nice, but not overly hard level.
3) Much better now. I would just relax the time limit: I had exactly 2 seconds left on the clock when I finished.
5) Another nice level. I found the main idea rather quickly, but then stumbled on the trick to build the upper platform already with the climber.
6) This should now be intended.
8) I have great hopes, that this is now closer to the intended solution, but probably is still not quite there.
9) Still doesn't need the climber.
10) Likely a glaring backroute.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 02, 2017, 08:08:23 PM

Thanks again Nepster. I'll try to fix up what I can and push out another update before the stream. I'll also finally respond to a portion of the other comments I received for version 12.

Nepster v13 Polar (click to show/hide)

2) Exactly intended :thumbsup:
3) I'm fine with this solution :thumbsup:, a lot slower than the intended one but I'm happy to raise the time limit to make it easier.
5) Exactly intended :thumbsup:
6) Exactly intended :thumbsup:
8) You're right that this is much closer, but looks like I still need to make a minor tweak.
9) Ugh, I can't believe I missed this. Time for some steel I guess.
10) Wow, yeah, that's a massive backroute.

Simon v12 (click to show/hide)

Introducing: Cavelems - Looks like I need to make a tweak here. Hopefully there's a straightforward fix for this.

Laying the Foundations - This is not 100% intended and still avoids the central trick of the level. I thought something you did here simply didn't work, but looks like it is not the case. Will need to think about how I can make this level do what I want it to do.

Nepster v12 updated levels (except Medieval) (click to show/hide)

Classic 7 - I need to stop going in circles with my attempted fixes here, and instead just either completely rethink this from scratch or totally ditch it for something else entirely.
Classic 8 - This is a backroute, and a pretty precise one to boot, but I have an idea to fix it.
Classic 10 - Yes, this is intended :thumbsup:
Egypt 9 - I know what I can do here to fix this.
Egypt 10 - Well done on this solution :thumbsup: Almost exactly intended, except I don't save the early glue pourer by cutting out the ground beneath him with a precise miner, instead I turn him around with the sand pourer. Your solution is extremely cool, but given the sand pourer seems not to break anything I think I'll leave it in to avoid this precision. There are also spare fillers, but similarly I don't see any way the level is broken by them. I think I'm happy with this level without needing to make any changes.
Sports 4 - Indeed it's a hackjob solution. I should be able to prevent this with some steel.
Sports 5 - I have tried to backroute fix this so many times that I think it would be best to majorly rewrok this to better focus on the central idea.
Sports 9 - For some reason lgl2 does not like putting certain objects like steel on the left-most grid squares, hence why that was unsteeled. I thought this didn't work, but that might have been before I moved the exit in an earlier update. I believe I can fix this by extending the steel, just not all the way to the screen edge.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 03, 2017, 10:08:14 PM

In preparation for tomorrow's stream, v14 is attached to the opening post. I'll wait to update NeoClassic until the next major update. I expect another update will come within a week after the stream.

v14 changelog:

• Cave 1 Introducing: Cavelems - Fixed Simon's Alternate solution.
• Classic 7 Escort Mission replaced with new level, Walk the Planks
• Classic 8 A Tight Squeeze - More steel to fix backroute.
• Egyptian 9 A Sticky Situation - Backroute fixes.
• Polar 3 Snow Drops - Extra 30s on the clock.
• Polar 7 Forging Ahead - Realised I could make this more puzzly by making some changes. Removed miner and substantially raised height of exit. Swapped positions with level 9.
• Polar 7 (was 9) Santa's Big Dig - More steel to fix backroute.
• Polar 8 Snow Drifts - Landscape tweak to fix Nepster's alternate solution.
• Polar 10 Grotty Grotto - Numerous revisions, skills have also changed.
• Sports 4 Rise to the Challenge - More steel to fix backroute.
• Sports 9 The Home Stretch - More steel to fix backroute.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {8/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 06, 2017, 08:49:43 PM

It's time for a new Tribe! Version 15, and also NeoClassic is updated to version 5. Find them both in the opening post.

v15 changelog:

• New Tribe: Circus
• Classic 7 Walk the Planks - Attempted a fix.
• Polar 4 Eskimomentum - Significantly more time on the clock.
• Polar 7 Santa's Big Dig - More steel to try and fix Simon's backroute. Returned to position 9, with levels inbetween moved down.
• Polar 10 Grotty Grotto - Level is wider, digger and platformer removed, climber added.

Minor TODO list:

• Polar 3 Snow Drops
• Polar 7 (was 8) Snow Drifts
• Polar 8 (was 9) Forging ahead
• Medieval Tribe

Major TODO list:

• Cave 5 Flappy Lem
• Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
• Space 6 Hull Breach
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on June 07, 2017, 07:27:54 PM

Solved V15 with the super powerful (read backrouty) SuperLem in the Circus tribe.

Circus tribe (click to show/hide)

1) Nice beginning and of the right difficulty for a first level.
2) SuperLem-backroute number one: Assigning the miner from the builders is very fiddly, but doable. Getting the SuperLem to the exit (and facing left there) needs some tries, too.
3) I don't need any builder here and could probably do without the club-basher, too (because the miner may free the attractor).
4) I am not a fan of this level, because it isn't obvious at all that the laser blaster gets through the ceiling after two builders. And apart from this trick, there is not much else to do here.
5) Nice level, but I have lots and lots of skills spare (6 jumpers, 1 climber, 9 attractors).
6) Very clever level. The question one has to pose is: Why the heck is there a trampolin below the hatch?
7) Long live the L2 glitches: If you assign the club-basher at the very edge, it leaves a one-pixel wall of terrain. This separates the worker lemming from the right crowd.
8) SuperLem-backroute number two: Getting the SuperLem through the laser blaster gap is not trivial, but doable. So I can solve the level without the club-basher, one of the miners and 8 jumpers.
9) Same nice idea as in "Lifeguard to the rescue". But unfortunately there are two very annoying parts: getting back over the middle gap, i.e. jumping from the lower stair on the left to the higher one on the right is possible, but almost pixel-precise. And of course the long SuperLem flight needed a lot of tries.
10) I like this solution, but as I only use one the miners and one of the club-bashers, this is likely a backroute.

Updated Levels (click to show/hide)

Classic 7) Timing the second builder is pretty precise, but otherwise a nice level.
Classic 8) My solution is now lose-2 (possibly even doable with only lose-1), so probably another backroute.
Egypt 9) Excellent level, but execution made me rage. Even the try you see on the screenshots saved only 49 lemmings, because the final glue-pourer platform is 2 pixels high instead of only one pixel (therefore creating it is slower than a walking lemming and they fall into the gap). So here are the precise places:
a) The two miners from the top must create a 1-pixel ledge at the bottom. This is possible, but very precise.
b) A carpet must hit the middle block almost at the left edge, so that the miner removes almost everything of the triangle in the middle. Otherwise the glue-pourer platform will hit this triangle and not continue to the exit platform.
c) After the miner removed terrain from the middle block, he must fly with another carpet to the top to fall to the exit platform. Again there is only barely enough horizontal space to do that.
Polar 9) Probably still not intended, because I liked my previous solution better.
Polar 10) I totally overlooked that you gave us now a climber :-[. So I solved it without the climber, which is probably not quite intended.
Sport 4) Excellent level! :thumbsup: Should be intended now.
Sport 9) Excellent level! :thumbsup: Should be intended now. I only didn't expect the shimmier to move along the top of the miner tunnel, because the tunnel has small bits of 45° slopes in it.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 07, 2017, 08:56:10 PM

Thanks Nepster. Sad news, I didn't realise you could cancel the laser blaster so some of these levels are unfixably busted. :( Will have to come up with replacements.

Circus (click to show/hide)

1) Exactly intended :thumbsup:
2) Well alright then, I can fix this. However I can use this idea for one of the replacement levels.
3) Pretty much intended, but I thought using the club basher from the miner always required you to use a builder to get back onto the miner tunnel, but looks like it doesn't? I think I'll fix the fact that the miner can free the attractor (I didn't realise it could) but leave in the builder.
4) Largely intended :thumbsup: I also didn't realise you could just barely blast out from the height from exactly two builders and thought you needed more height. Not sure I want to make that ceiling a bit higher as I'm limited to a full 8 pixels, which is higher than I wanted, but given the precision of the miner and trampoline that are needed here I guess it's not so bad. Maybe there's a better fix here. Will try something. I mean your solution is fine and really you're just making things a lot harder on yourself here, but I'll try to make things a bit nicer if I can.
5) I should of guessed that trying to be nice and provide those tiny blocks to prevent extreme precision would open up major backrouting. Let me remove them and see how people feel.
6) Intended :thumbsup:
7) Boo! That bug sucks! Will try a fix, hopefully it won't bust anything.
8) Unfixably busted :(
9) I cannot believe that jump works. Gross! Fixing that jump will fix this level, but actually fixing that jump is gonna be tough.
10) Unfixably busted :( EDIT: No wait! No it's not! Hooray!

Updated levels (click to show/hide)

Classic 7 - Wow, talk about getting exactly the right idea except making things significantly harder on yourself. You can do this almost exact solution without taking more than 1 lemming over the initial bridges. I guess no changes are really needed here.
Classic 8  - Now for some reason I thought that digger + builder trick couldn't be made to work here and am pretty sure I even tried it, but honestly I'm now a bit confused as to why I ever thought that. I think I can fix this by adding a climber and swapping the digger for an exploder, and allowing an extra loss. It's trickier to execute, but it should work!
Egypt 9 - An exceptionally precise backroute? Well I definitely need to fix this!
Polar 9 - I'm beginning to wonder if this level is worth keeping. I can fix this, but it just slowly gets more and more dumb, and the level as intended is a bit boring anyway because the digs are so long. Another fine replacement candidate I think...
Polar 10 - Smart solution, but this is a backroute that needs fixing.
Sports 4 - Exactly intended :thumbsup:
Sports 9 - Exactly intended :thumbsup: I too was pleasantly surprised that it seems to work always and without luck given the nature of the slope created, but hey I'm not complaining ;P

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on June 09, 2017, 12:39:38 AM

Walk the plank save-all (http://www.lixgame.com/etc/l2-kieran-walk-the-plank.mp4) (video, 6 MB)

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: geoo on June 10, 2017, 09:11:10 PM

Not many new solutions, and all three of them look a bit backrouteish:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Polar 10: Crawling is gonna be a big issue here I'm afraid.
Egypt 9: Exploiting the little ledge of the pillar here.
Egypt 10: This one actually looks somewhat legit, but saves 4 fillers (3 in my solution because I misplaced the last miner).

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: geoo on June 11, 2017, 09:08:32 PM

A few more.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Medieval 10: I think I was just stuck on it because I assumed you didn't want us to build from the bottom of the level (like Simon and I did in our old backroute). So once I reconsidered and actually looked at the terrain (the right side of the lower platform this time) I immediately saw the solution, especially considering that Sports 4 uses a very similar trick.
Medieval 8: I'm pretty sure this is not intended.

Pillar Thriller: Save-all solution. So you can save various skills (builder+miner+digger) in exchange for killing one more lemming.
Classic ? (Lost 4): Found a solution saving a terrain remover and having some quite tight timing. I'm not quite happy about the quality-of-life lowering of the platform distance, it certainly makes things more convenient, but also makes players look for 3-builder setups (which I'm pretty sure is in fact possible). Maybe it's better to use some half-height terrain pieces to make the gap 4.5 blocks rather than 4 (there's some horizontal pillar piece you could add on top of the bottom and top platform, might look a bit ugly though).

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 12, 2017, 10:28:25 PM

Thanks for the feedback all. I've decided I'm no longer going to respond to each individual point of feedback, but I promise you I do read and consider all of it.

Version 16 has been released. NeoClassic not updated yet as I will be making further changes to Classic in a near update.

v16 changelog:

• Cavelem 5 Flappy Lem - Replaced by a new level with the same name.
• Circus 2 Deepest Blue - Steel to fix backroute.
• Circus 3 Simply Red - Minor tweak for minor fix.
• Circus 4 Teeny Weeny Houdini - Some small tweaks.
• Circus 5 The Fall Guys - Now less friendly to the player to fix backroutes :p
• Circus 7 A Chip Off the Old Block - Backroute fix, extra Club Basher added.
• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - Major changes.
• Circus 9 The Kryptonite Factor - Backroute fix.
• Circus 10 What a Blast! - Fixed backroute with extra terrain.
• Classic 7 Walk the Planks - Various changes. Basher added.
• Classic 8 A Tight Squeeze - To fix backroute, removed digger, added climber and exploder, level is now Lose 4. Extra minute on the clock for reasons of pure friendliness. NOTE: It is possible with exceptional timing to only lose 3 lemmings, but I'm OK with this remaining unrequired as I'm not that much of a bastard.
• Egypt 10 Keynes' Marginal Utility - Added steel to fix backroute

Minor TODO list:
Classic 6 Pillar Thriller
Classic 9 Spiral Staircase
Egypt 9 A Sticky Situation
Medieval Tribe
Polar 3 Snow Drops
Polar 7 Snow Drifts
Polar 8 Forging ahead
Polar 10 Grotty Grotto

Major TODO list:
Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Sports 5 Tour De Farce
Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on June 14, 2017, 09:09:43 PM

I played through the updated level again and most should be (close) to intended. :thumbsup:

Comments (click to show/hide)

Cave 5: Interesting idea to delay the second lemming by letting him flap around while the other lemming works.
Circus 2: Nice use of laser blasters.
Circus 5: Excellent level! :thumbsup:
Circus 7: UNSOLVED. Before I continue working on this level, I would like a confirmation that at the end one builder is insufficient to create enough terrain that the basher continues through the second pillar.
Circus 8: I suspect this level needs more steel...
Circus 9: Very good level.
Circus 10: Not much difference to the first version.
Classic 8: Here another lose-2 solution.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on June 14, 2017, 09:28:21 PM

geoo and I consider livestreaming a Circus race tomorrow (Thursday) at 17:00 UTC (19:00 German summer time, an hour earlier than my usual stream time). But we'd like confirmation by Kieran before we schedule it for tomorrow.

Kieran, do you have time to watch? If not, what other time suits you? geoo suggests Monday 19th or Wednesday 21st.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 14, 2017, 09:32:44 PM

Nepster on Circus 7 (click to show/hide)

As far as I am aware that will not work. Or if it does, its a backroute. Perhaps in a future update I should make the level wider and put much more space between the pillars to make it obvious that isn't right, but I'm a sucker for keeping things one screen wide or one screen tall

Ooh you posted about twitch while I was typing this up. Unfortunately I have guests around tomorrow for a board game night, so would not be able to watch that stream sorry. Monday 19th or Wednesday 21st both much better for me.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on June 14, 2017, 09:40:35 PM

Awesome, thanks for the quick reply. Then it's Monday, June 19th, 18:00 UTC. Everybody is invited.

twitch.tv/simonnaar, twitch.tv/geoouw, or both together at multitwitch.tv/simonnaar/geoouw

Edit: Race is not 17 UTC, but 18 UTC. I'll start the stream around 17 UTC anyway and go over de-backrouted levels in other tribes.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {9/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 18, 2017, 08:53:15 PM

A very small update mainly for tomorrow's stream:

v17b changelog:

• Circus 7 A Chip Off the Old Block - Incorrect approach now more obviously incorrect. Level swapped places with Circus 9.
• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - More Steel
• Circus 10 Having A Blast! - Fixed Nepster's solution with a hole.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {10/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 23, 2017, 09:46:53 PM

It's update time! New tribe, not totally sure how I feel about some of it. The skill selection is a bit wacky. Hopefully some levels aren't too frustrating.

v18 changelog:

• New Tribe: Highland Tribe!
• Cave 5 Flappy Lem - More steel to fix backroute.
• Circus 1 Introducing: Circus - Changes to fix backroute.
• Circus 2 Deepest Blue - Fix backroute.
• Circus 4 Teeny-Weeny Houdini - Minor changes to fix backroute.
• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - More steel to fix backroute.
• Egypt 10 Keynes' Marginal Utility - Making Nepster's soultion official by removing sand pourer as I now believe you can backroute the level with it. No other changes.

Minor TODO list:
Circus 3
Classic 6
Classic 8
Classic 9
Egypt 9
Medieval Tribe - lots of levels
Polar 3
Polar 7
Polar 8
Polar 10

Major TODO list:
Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Sports 5 Tour De Farce
Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {10/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on June 24, 2017, 08:37:06 PM

I played most of the Highlands, but here I really wish that L2 has framestepping, replay features or similar.

Highlands and Circus (click to show/hide)

Highland 1) Nice intro level. Not too hard, just stopping the hopper is annoying.
Highland 2) This needs major precision to time that the ball lands on the bridge, but not too far behind the builder.
Highland 3) Very easy.
Highland 4) Excellent level! :thumbsup:
Highland 5) This is another level needing lots of precision. First of all one has to time the first ball so that it hits between the second-last and last lemming (assignment roughly at 2:54 on the clock). Then one has to place the mortar correctly. And then the big roadblock: Assigning the hopper, so that the falling climber grabs the lower edge of the blocks. This resets the fall distance, so that he survives the long fall.
Highland 6) Nice level idea, but unfortunately I have huge difficulties blowing the twister straight diagonally.
Highland 7) Excellent idea, stopping the second rock climber with the ball thrower. Unfortunately one has to turn the first two lemmings into climbers, which gives only a small space between them. Then one has to use the attractor as a ball-thrower, which makes it very hard on the timing to get the first rope done over the water. And once one has managed all of that, one has to blow the twister correctly.
Please consider giving one ball-thrower more, so that one has one extra to release the attractor. This would solve all the problems, except the last one.
Highland 8) Here is my solution idea: First use the twister to remove lots of terrain from the gray building, to reduce the height at which one can throw balls. Then find the correct position to throw the balls, so that they land on the deeper red block. Now climb to the left and twist to the gap in the steel wall. Hop over the red blocks and the balls in the middle. Then throw from the right edge one ball to the steel wall to reduce the fall distance. Finally release the crowd with the third twister.
Unfortunately the first two tasks require so much precision, that I will never ever do that. Sorry.

Circus 8) 100% certain, that this is just another backroute.
Circus 9) Amazing level! :thumbsup::thumbsup:
Circus 10) Excellent level and a very nice way to save the climber! :thumbsup:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {10/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 25, 2017, 03:57:31 PM

Thanks Nepster. If I don't comment on a level here, assume I'm saying either "that's intended." or "that obviously needs fixing".

Highland (click to show/hide)

2) So I knew this was possible but could never be bothered to try and pull it off. Unsure whether to leave it, or to do something else with the level.
3) This will need a slight tweak.
5) Mostly correct but I can make a tweak to fix your solution which relies on what I see as a physics bug.
7) Not sure if I want to make a tweak here. The timing element of rushing to save the crowd was intended as it relies on putting the attractor in the right place and using the right lemming for it for it to all work, but maybe it's better to remove it and I could just make this level easier. This was me trying to make things feel a bit different in what is a Tribe where the levels all feel a bit samey to me.
8) Yes that is the right idea, but fair enough, the whole cutting out an area to throw in part of this level is bad. I think the idea of landing 3 rocks to make a space to hop is a solid one, but really I need to replace the top half of the level with something else entirely. I had numerous ideas for the Twister but as you can see it controls like ass so some of them had to go, but I left this one in even though I perhaps shouldn't have. Will look into making big changes here.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {10/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on June 30, 2017, 09:39:26 PM

An update with Highland fixes, fixing some outstanding stuff, and continuing to procrastinate fixing Classic, Medieval and Polar before I start work on the next tribe.

v19 changelog:

• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - Moved Steel to fix Nepster's backoute.
• Egypt 9 A Sticky Situation - Backroute fixes. Level is wider and extra glue pourer provided.
• Highland 2 Highland Fling - Major revamp and moved to level 6.
• Highland 3 Bridge Me Up Scotty - Made a tweak.
• Highland 5 Strong-Arm Tactics replaced with new level, On the Rebound, and moved to level 2.
• Highland 8 The Stone Cutters replaced with new level, School of Hard Rocks.
• Highland 10 Bullseye! - Removed uninteresting twister.
• Sports 5 Tour De Farce replaced with new level, Ceausescu's Folly, and moved to level 6.

Minor todo list (click to show/hide)

Circus 3
Classic 6
Classic 8
Classic 9
Various Medieval levels
Polar 3
Polar 7
Polar 8
Polar 10

Major todo list (click to show/hide)

Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {10/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on July 02, 2017, 06:43:17 PM

Here some more screenshots of the updated levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Circus 8: Still basically the same backroute, just less fun to execute.
Egypt 9: Yet unsolved. I know a solution with 6 glue-pourers :)
Highland 2: Very easy level, but nice.
Highland 3: Nice idea.
Highland 6: Feels intended. The time limit prevents several backroutes.
Highland 8: Suprisingly the hoppers require more precision than the bal-throwers here. Feels intended.
Highland 9: Far too easy and straight-forward to be intended.
Highland 10: I still have problems with precision-twisting, here the right vertical wall to throw the balls through. Otherwise a very nice level, even though I don't need all the skills.
Sport 6: Almost certainly a backroute, as I need basher-staircases at the end.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {11/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 06, 2017, 08:00:09 PM

Thanks Nepster. I know I haven't said anything but I have looked at your feedback and taken it on board, I was just busy focussing on finishing up the latest tribe!

Version 20 has been released, which contains The Shadow Tribe! This is the only change in this release, so no need for a changelog.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {11/12 Tribes}
Post by: Nepster on July 10, 2017, 05:28:15 PM

Shadow tribe (click to show/hide)

1) Nice, easy intro level.
2) On the one hand floating to the ground and then back to the starting pit is very nice. But it's pretty weird that you can only pop the ballon with the roper end on top of the pit wall, but not without this.
3) I only say: Call the bomb squad.
4) Probably not quite intended. It is possible to save the builder by fanning the ballon through the small gap to the exit platform.
5) Great level idea!
6) Nice level.
7) This is very likely a backroute, because I don't use the right half at all. At the beginning one has to stall the second lemming of the right hatch with a balloon (that almost instantly pops) to get everyone into the stomper pit.
8) Very nice level idea, but one has to place the stomper extremely precisely, so that all bulks of lemmings wander off to the right at first and only the single stomper walks to the left to pour. Otherwise the glue isn't fast enough and the first trap catches one lemming.
9) Should be a backroute, too.
10) Nice level, but not too hard. And I only need two fencers and none of the pourers.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {11/12 Tribes}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 14, 2017, 08:24:23 PM

Thanks Nepster! I'll provide some comments about comments.

Shadow (click to show/hide)

1 - 3 Intended :thumbsup:
4 - I think I need to raise the height of the fall a little bit here.
5 & 6 - Intended :thumbsup:
7 - Obviously a massive backroute. I always try to minimise the amount of steel I place, but I think here I just need to slap down a whole load.
8 - Not intended and the fix will involve something I didn't really want to do, but I suppose it needs to be done.
9 - Fixing this one will be a bit tricky. Hmmm...
10 - I guess the level wasn't tall enough in places... The problem with relying on fall damage to prevent certain paths is that it's just so huge in L2

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {11/12 Tribes}
Post by: Simon on July 16, 2017, 03:27:05 PM

Race with geoo on Tuesday, July 18 at 18:00 UTC through Shadow or maybe Highland, depending on what tribe Kieran prefers to see raced first.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes!}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 18, 2017, 01:58:07 PM

This is it! 135 levels later and I've finally replaced every level! This doesn't mean there aren't a few replacements due, but it does mean that for now, the entire game has been replaced!

This update is in time for tonight's stream. I recommend racing Shadow, as it's in the best place right now out of the 3 tribes that haven't been raced.

No update to NeoClassic yet. It's a pain to update but I'll do it at some point.

v21 changelog:

• New Tribe: Outdoor Tribe!
• Circus 3 Simply Red - Level redone to be a bit better.
• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - Fix backroute.
• Classic 8 A Tight Squeeze - Fix Nepster's backroute, also made the timing less tight (again).
• Polar 7 Snow Drifts - Snow drifts are thinner to fix backroutes
• Polar 10 Grotty Grotto - Fix disgusting crawling backroute.
• Shadow 4 Shadowfall - Raised height of entrance platform and prevented precision ballooning.
• Shadow 7 The Rise and Fall of... - More Steel
• Shadow 8 Roadmenders - Minor terrain tweaks near the far bottom-left and bottom-right, and higher density of traps.
• Shadow 9 Taking the Back Route - Redone entrance area, release rate upped to max, Stomper replaced with Builder
• Shadow 10 Alley-Oop! - Level now much taller in places. Extra Floater provided.
• Sports 6 Ceausescu's Folly - Fix backroutes. (Why did I give this level this name, writing it out for this chagelog is a nightmare)

Minor TODO list (click to show/hide)

Classic 6 Pillar Thriller
Classic 9 Spiral Staircase
Go through latest Medieval and Highland feedback
Polar 3 Snow Drops
Polar 8 Forging Ahead

Major TODO list (click to show/hide)

Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes!}
Post by: Ryemanni on July 18, 2017, 09:03:23 PM

It was a great stream! I'm glad I didn't miss it. :D

I had to make a quick pic which sums up the stream perfectly:

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes!}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 18, 2017, 09:52:13 PM

That's amazing!

Anyway I've started fixing the broken levels. Shadow 8 Roadmenders seemed to particularly frustrate Simon and geoo so I've tried to focus on changing this one. Thoughts?

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes!}
Post by: Ryemanni on July 19, 2017, 09:33:07 AM

It's definitely an improvement, but maybe add a bit more moons...?

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes!}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 20, 2017, 10:44:50 AM

Here's the next update, very speedy release because I've got the week off work. Quite a hefty chunk of changes here, dealing with most things on my TODO lists. The Highland Tribe is now ready for the next stream. I've also updated NeoClassic.

v22 changelog:

• Classic 9 Spiral Stairs replaced with new level, Needs No Intro, a proper introductory level similar to the other tribes and moved to slot one.
• The original Classic 1 Needs No Intro now in slot 3 with a small tweak and a new name, Round the Bend.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Removed Digger and made adjustments to terrain to fix geoo's backroute.
• Highland 9 Fear of the Mountaineer - Shut down incorrect approaches pretty hard. It's possible that I've gone too far.
• Highland 10 Bullseye! - Some terrain tweaks
• Polar 3 Snow Drops replaced with new level, Lair of the Evil Snowman, and moved to slot 8
• Polar 7 Forging ahead, major terrain changes + extra miner. Slower release rate.
• Polar 9 Santa's Big Dig replaced with new level, Polar Opposites
• Shadow 1 Introducing: Shadow - Terrain adjustments to fix backroute
• Shadow 4 Shadowfall - Major terrain adjustments to fix backroute
• Shadow 5 Escape Tunnel - Removed "lit street lamp" object that made top of street lamp non-solid. This does not impact the solution in any way.
• Shadow 8 Roadmenders - Added Builder, Filler, a whole load more traps (because there wasn't enough already!), extended the length of the central water pit and got rid of some terrain you could bash your head on.
• Shadow 10 Alley-Oop! - Remove Floater, Filler and Bomber, add Stomper. Some minor terrain tweaks to make some necessary falls not quite so precise on height (level is also a little bit shorter as a result).
• Sports 6 Ceausescu's Folly - Added steel to fix backroutes, made level wider and added 2 Platformers to reduce precision.

Minor TODO list (click to show/hide)

Go through Medieval Tribe feedback

Major TODO list (click to show/hide)

Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Space 6 Hull Breach
Shadow 9 Taking the Back Route

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes!}
Post by: Simon on July 20, 2017, 12:00:38 PM

Thanks for the fast update! I'll download tomorrow before the next stream.

Race with Doctor Moon geoo through Highland tomorrow on Friday, July 21st, at 18:00 UTC. Streams were at:

twitch.tv/simonnaar
twitch.tv/geoouw
multitwitch.tv/simonnaar/geoouw

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 24, 2017, 08:50:43 PM

What's this? Could it be.... even more levels! Surprise! :lem-shocked:

Yes the main content wasn't quite over yet. Attached to the front post you'll find a bonus download: Quest From Kieran 2: The Lost Tribe!

This is another set of 10 levels for the Egyptian Tribe that does not adhere to a strict restriction of thematic skills, instead you'll find a huge grab-bag of all your favourite skills, like Diver, Attractor, Pole Vaulter and lots and lots of Magic Carpets!

Throughout development of QFK2 I sometimes had a cool idea for a level, but it couldn't work with the skills I'd chosen for the Tribe, so the Lost Tribe is my opportunity to make these levels. The levels are save-all, with a single exception (it has Exploders), but as always you'll find the number you are allowed to lose for this level in the title of the level.

To prevent overwriting the regular QFK2 Egyptian Tribe, you might prefer to copy your entire L2 install so both packs can coexist side by side!

Note that this bonus tribe is overall a lot harder than the regular QFK2 content, which by the usual metric means it has tons of trivial exploits. Good luck! You'll need it.

Sadly this is now, for reals this time, the actually final Tribe.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: Leo on July 25, 2017, 05:29:24 AM

When you are at the full speed of creativity, you can also consider making new practice levels.
And of course, you can make another full set of 120 levels. Having two new level sets for the game in 24 years is certainly not too much.
Also, who said levels must be super hard? Make one set of levels just for the fun. Let's call it 'Lemmings 2: Beginner's Edition'.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 25, 2017, 08:30:52 AM

While making 240 levels would be cool, I'm at risk of burning out on L2 right now and also have some commitment elsewhere that I want to get back to so this pack is enough for now. 130 levels is still quite a lot.

You're right that levels don't have to be super hard, I'd say that a significant portion of the entire pack is on the simpler side, about 30-40%-ish probably? Definitely has a large chunk of small and straightforward levels. The bonus pack just happens to be tougher overall, partially by accident, and partially because I wasn't deliberately making simpler levels to fit my plan with the rest of the Tribes having a smooth difficulty curve.

I had no plans to make new practice levels. They are not all that interesting anyway.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: Nepster on July 25, 2017, 06:50:27 PM

Here are my solutions to the Outdoor tribe. On lots of levels I finished with only a few seconds on the clock. So could you please increase the time limits a bit? Otherwise a great tribe (except for the usual backroutes) ;)
I will play the lost tribe and your other backroute-fixed levels soon.

More detailed feedback (click to show/hide)

1) Nice level, but the first planter requires lots of precision: On has to select the third-to-last lemming (which is already non-trivial) and then one has to assign the planter skill at the very end, so that the planter lemming falls down instead of turning around.
2) Nice, easy level, but the time limit is very harsh.
3) Not my favorite due to flinging. I placed the first miner rather precisely in order to have a few spare skills at the end.
4) Great level! But I don't need all planters...
5) Backroute number one.
6) Backroute number two.
7) Backroute number three.
8) Backroute number four, but not as glaring as the previous ones.
9) The flinging at the beginning requires lots of precision. And please give two more minutes: I finished with only 10 seconds left. Otherwise a nice level.
10) Great level, though I don't need all skills.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 25, 2017, 10:12:55 PM

Thanks Nepster! Looks like I'll need to make changes to every single Outdoor level. Well, I might leave 10 as is because your solution is OK, but I might still make some tweaks anyway.

P.S. Noticed a quite obvious backroute in the Lost Tribe level 6 Jumping the Shark, so hopefully I can get a fix for that posted up sometime tomorrow along with a load of other changes waiting in the pipeline. You might as well play the fixed version.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on July 26, 2017, 03:03:03 PM

I've been spending a lot of time on this lately on my time off, but updates from now on won't come quite so thick and fast. I'm looking to make some very significant changes to Highland in the future, as I will most likely be changing the skills the Tribe uses so there's still a lot of work to do there.

Version 23 has been released, alongside version 2 of the Lost Tribe (where the only change is a backroute fix to the 6th level Jumping the Shark):


v23 changelog:

• Highland 5 Can't Zig While Zagging - Add Hopper and steel up wall near exit.
• Highland 8 School of Hard Rocks - Terrain tweak to fix backroute.
• Medieval 4 Ye Olde Cavern - Tweaked layout at top of level to fix Nepster's backroute.
• Medieval 5 Going Full Circle - Extremely minor change to try and fix bizarre bug that randomly occured on stream. This has no impact on the solution.
• Medieval 6 The Castle Cellar - Steel in multiple places to fix backroutes.
• Outdoor 1 Introducing: Outdoor - Landscape tweaks to prevent less fun alternate solution.
• Outdoor 2 The Allotment - Moved rocky landscape to the left. Extra time.
• Outdoor 3 A Quick Fling - Added steel to prevent precise skill extension. Extra time.
• Outdoor 4 Rocks and Hard Places - Removed 2 Planters, added Jumper, and moved exit area to the left. Extra time.
• Outdoor 5 Mud Slinger - Steel near top-right corner to fix backroute. Extra time
• Outdoor 6 Rocky's Horror Show - More steel above the entrance + trying to shut down an otherwise inevitable future crawling backroute. Extra time.
• Outdoor 9 Life's Greater Porpoise - Numerous major landscape and layout changes, most notably removing what was an unnecessarily long platform section. Added Flame Thrower, removed Platformer, Planter and Scooper. Extra Time
• Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman - Fixed the crawling route by just removing the damn Basher and swapping it for a Miner. Terrain adjsted to compensate.
• Polar 9 Polar Opposites - Terrain tweaks + 1 less Basher.
• Replaced Shadow 9 Taking the Back Route with new level Bungalow, and moved to position 2.
• Replaced Shadow 5 (was 4) Shadowfall with new level, Into the Hidden City.
• Replaced Space 6 Hull Breach with new level, Space Elevator, then swapped position with level 4, Gravity Chamber.

TODO list (click to show/hide)

Highland 1 Introducing: Highland
Highland 3 Bridge me up Scotty
Highland 4 What Bagpiper's Deserve
Highland 6 Highland Fling
Highland 7 Scaling Lem Nevis
Highland 9 Fear of the Mountaineer
Highland 10 Bullseye
Medieval 7 Castle Invaders (To be replaced)
Medieval 9 Medi-Upheaval
Medieval 10 Laying the Foundations
Outdoor 7 Life's Ups and Downs
Outdoor 8 Take a Hike
Outdoor 10 Triple Trouble (Maybe)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: Nepster on July 26, 2017, 07:31:53 PM

I resolved everything except Highland, Outdoor and Shadow (unless I missed some other level that was updated, too).

Comments (click to show/hide)

Circus 8: First I tried to go through the bottom left pillar with a miner-jumper combination, but unfortunately a glitch prevents this: Even though there is still a whole solid line of pixels the jumper "jumps" through it and falls to the bottom. So I had to use the backstroke of the club-basher to go halfway through it before starting to mine.
Classic 1: Nice intro level.
Classic 3: This actually got worse: Before one could use the digger to build out of the digger hole, but now one has the correctly placed lemming from the crowd in the digger pit. Assignment-rage!
Classic 7: Now I can again save every lemming here... :P
Classic 9: Still plagued by a backroute...
Medieval 4: Only a minor change to my previous solution was necessary.
Medieval 6: Although I got the "intended" solution already, I now cannot solve the level anymore. I need the three archers and the two shimmiers to get the glider to the top of the box block. But then I can no longer turn him... ???
Polar 7: I liked the previous level better. There you had to start with two miners, while now one is totally sufficient.
Polar 8: Great level, although I only need one of the diggers.
Polar 9: Very nice level. But if I hadn't wasted the first stacker by misplacing it, I would have had one spare.
Space 4: Nice level, though fanning the jetpack is hard. I don't need any of the bazookas.
Sport 6: Another backroute...

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: Nepster on July 30, 2017, 02:46:06 PM

Here are screenshots for the updated levels of Shadow and the first half of Outdoor.

Comments (click to show/hide)

Outdoor 1: Better now.
Outdoor 2: I don't see a big difference between the old and the current version.
Outdoor 3: Basically the same solution as before, just with one flamethrower more.
Outdoor 4: Now with a slight adjustment for the last part.
Outdoor 5: A much better level now.
Outdoor 6: Likely still a backroute, because I don't need the right half at all.
Shadow 2: Nice, easy level.
Shadow 5: Very nice level. But there are two small problems in executing the solution: First of all the gap for the balloon is very narrow. Secondly one has to place the two bombs very precisely, so that the two fillers allow the lemmings to step out of the hole. With a thrid filler, this would be a lot easier.
Shadow 8: Great level!
Shadow 9: This feels like another backroute, even though I cannot think of another approach.
Shadow 10: I really don't know whether this is intended or not, given the two skills that I have left over.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: Nepster on August 13, 2017, 11:24:58 AM

Finally the Lost Tribe has found it's way home, too, even though they took some shortcuts. :P

Comments (click to show/hide)

1) Very precise use of the bazooka and the bomb at the beginning, so I don't expect that this is intended.
2) Excellent level! I just made it much more difficult than necessary for myself, due to making the laser blaster lemming an attractor at the beginning, not after shimming to the laser blaster location. :-[
3) Very easy, so probably not quite intended.
4) Amazing level! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
5) Another excellent level! :thumbsup: At first I tried (from three different locations!) to put an arrow at the right edge of the second gap, so that I can use both glue-pourers at the top right corner of the level. Unfortunately the arrow has to be placed pixel-precise to create a 1-pixel ledge at exactly the correct height, which seem to be almost impossible to manage.
In my final solution, putting the arrow into the ceiling is non-trivial, because one has to stand almost at the topmost pixel fo the vase.
6) Due to the skills I have left over, I suspect a backroute.
7) Amazing level! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
8) I would make any bet that this is a backroute.
9) Another backroute, I guess.
10) While I hope that at least some parts are already intended, I probably simplified the solution a bit.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on August 16, 2017, 08:54:31 PM

Thanks Nepster. I haven't been active lately but hope to get back into fixing up my pack based on your comments. I've still not really thought about what I'll be doing to the Highland Tribe. I'll respond more directly to your comments eventually.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on August 21, 2017, 10:25:45 PM

I've started fixing up levels and have started with the Lost Tribe, so I'll respond to those comments first:

Lost Tribe (click to show/hide)

1 Two Sides to Every Story - I did not realise you could climb up that with only one bazooka, yes this is definitely not intended, but hopefully an easy fix.
2 Reverse Guillotine - Yes it looks like you did make this slightly harder on yourself but no matter, obviously you've got the main idea behind the level solved correctly and that's all that matters :thumbsup:
3 Tall Tales - Doh! Sad that I missed this backroute :( Must have been a change I made during development at some point as I swear I'd considered it at some point.
4 The Tourist - Yes, this is the correct idea :thumbsup: I do some slightly different crowd control stuff but in hindsight it seems so obvious to just do the roping first, and this is good enough to me so no need for any changes.
5 Beating a Dead horse - This is the right idea :thumbsup: But I want to avoid you having to do super precise arrow shots, so I'll make a tweak.
6 Jumping The Shark - Nice backroute, but it has to go! Time to Steel up!
7 Potheads - This is exactly intended, well done! :thumbsup: (If you're wondering about the filler, it's in case you scoop slightly too far down at the start, as I had the skill slot spare).
8 Secret Passage - Bah! Oh well, easy fix!
9 The Temple of Boom - Again, nice backroute, but I'm afraid it has to go!
10 The Great Hall of Egypt - Well you understand some bits, but... yeah this is nowhere near right. I'll need to see what I can do about this. Unfortunately this level ended up ballooning enormously in complexity as I found and tried to fix backroutes, and maybe it's a bit too complicated now that this sort of thing will creep in. I'll need to think carefully about what to do here. Maybe a substantial revamp is needed?

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on August 30, 2017, 08:02:56 PM

I've fixed up all of the outstanding issues in the Shadow and Outdoor tribes, as well as the Lost Tribe!

v24 changelog:

• Outdoor 5 Mud Slinger - Minor Terrain tweaks + Major slowdown in release rate
• Outdoor 6 Rocky's Horror Show - Even more Steel + minor terrain tweaks
• Outdoor 7 Life's Ups and Downs - Longer pool of water to fix backroute.
• Outdoor 8 Take a Hike - Steel up most of those posts.
• Outdoor 10 Triple Trouble - Added Jumper, Removed Platformer and Bomber, minor terrain tweaks.
• Shadow 5 Into the Hidden City - Terrain tweaks to fix alternate solution
• Shadow 9 Roadmenders - Raise height of starting landscape to prevent backroute.
• Shadow 10 Alley-Oop! - Removed Fencer, Added Stomper, added steel + terrain tweaks + super slow release rate for quality of life

Lost Tribe v03 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 1 Two Sides to Every Story - Bigger block at the start.
• Lost Tribe 3 Tall Tales - Chunks of land moved to the right to fix backroute.
• Lost Tribe 5 Beating a Dead Horse - Level extended to the left a bunch and starting area lowered slightly to prevent minor alternate solution.
• Lost Tribe 6 Jumping the Shark - Added steel near entrance and to right side of level and made tiny landscape tweak to fix backroute.
• Lost Tribe 8 Secret Passage - Fix backroute with minor landscape tweak near the entrance.
• Lost Tribe 9 The Temple of Boom - Fix backroute by adding landscape and steel at the top of the pillar near the Entrance.
• Lost Tribe 10 The Great Hall of Egypt - Major revisions. Massive simplification, different intended solution, and major skill changes.

TODO List (click to show/hide)

Major Highland Revamp
Circus 8 Wooly Jumper
Classic 3 Round the Bend
Classic 7 Pillar Thriller
Classic 9 A Tight Squeeze
Medieval 4 Ye Olde Cavern
Medieval 7 Castle Invaders
Medieval 9 Medi-Upheaval
Medieval 10 Laying the Foundations
Polar 7 Forging Ahead
Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman
Polar 9 Polar Opposites
Space 4 Space Elevator
Sport 6 Ceausescu's Folly

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {All Tribes + Bonus!}
Post by: kieranmillar on September 10, 2017, 07:39:06 PM

More fixing. This time the Classic, Medieval and Sports tribe get all of their outstanding issues fixed. I have decided to hold off on updating NeoClassic for now as the new Neolemmix level format, when it is released, will no longer use manual steel areas, so there will be some updating needed.

v25 changelog:

• Classic 3 Round the Bend - Raised steel in middle of level to fixbackroute.
• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Removed land at very bottom of the screen to fix backroute.
• Classic 9 A Tight Squeeze - Steel below the exit to fix backroute.
• Medieval 4 Ye Olde Cavern - Added tiny crate that left me personally unable to pull off Nepster's backroute. Maybe it is still possible, but if so, I will leave it in.
• Medieval 7 Castle Invaders - Level replaced with entirely new level and moved to slot 5.
• Medieval 9 Medi-Upheaval - Removed roller, added 2 shimmiers, level is now wider + some other minor tweaks. Also, here be dragons.
• Medieval 10 Laying the Foundations - More skills, more time, more trapdoors, more terrain.
• Sport 6 Ceausescu's Folly - Widened starting area, raised left-most exit and removed steel above entrance to fix backroute.

TODO List (click to show/hide)

Major Highland Revamp
Circus 8 Wooly Jumper
Polar 7 Forging Ahead
Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman
Polar 9 Polar Opposites
Space 4 Space Elevator

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v26 17th Sep 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on September 17, 2017, 07:10:29 PM

Another version. This one is pretty substantial. This version includes a major Highland revamp, where the builder got swapped out for the slider, and a whole host of levels have been replaced. I also replaced two other levels that I thought were a bit lame. Due to the number of changes to the Highland tribe, and the fact that some levels are new despite having the same name, I'll list every level and state what's changed, or not.

v26 changelog:

• Highland Revamp
  
  • Highland 1 Introducing: Highland - New level
  • Highland 2 On the Rebound - No changes
  • Highland 3 A Drop of Scotch - New level
  • Highland 4 What Bagpiper's Deserve - Level is a bit taller, gaps a bit wider, to prevent roper related-backroutes.
  • Highland 5  Zigging While Zagging - No changes
  • Highland 6 Highland Fling - New level
  • Highland 7 Scaling Lem Nevis - Skill and layout changes to avoid big precision twist and make execution of rest of level easier.
  • Highland 8 Hopping Mad - New level
  • Highland 9 School of Hard Rocks - No changes (but used to be in slot 8)
  • Highland 10 Telegraph Pole - New level
• Medieval 5 Castle Invaders - I realised this level was very similar to another one, so I replaced it (again) with a new level, Invasion of Normandy, and put it at slot 3.
• Outdoor 7 Life's Ups and Downs - I felt this level was bad, so I replaced with a new level, Jumping Beans, and moved it to slot 6.
• Space 4 Space Elevator - Layout tweaks and an extra Jet Pack and Bazooka. I am aware of a solution that saves a bazooka, but am not bothered by it.

TODO List (click to show/hide)

Circus 8 Wooly Jumper
Polar 7 Forging Ahead
Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman
Polar 9 Polar Opposites

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v26 17th Sep 2017}
Post by: Simon on September 17, 2017, 08:46:13 PM

Great to see this much support!

Outdoor race on Thursday, September 21st, 18:00 UTC at www.twitch.tv/simonnaar and www.twitch.tv/geoouw. geoo and I aren't looking at Highland or Bonus-Egyptian until then, allowing more races.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v26 17th Sep 2017}
Post by: Nepster on September 17, 2017, 09:33:54 PM

Final chance to get some last-minute fixes done to the outdoor tribe before the race. :)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v26 17th Sep 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on September 18, 2017, 10:07:52 AM

Heh, thanks Nepster, always able to find dumb oversights by myself, and so quickly too! I should be able to get fixes out before Thursday.

Comments (click to show/hide)

5) Mud Slinger - Hah, that's smart, fortunately it's easily fixed by widening the level and extending that gap.
6) Jumping Beans - I'm not sure how this happened, your solution is pretty much the intended solution except it's all worked out despite not needing all those jumpers. It looks like I need to rethink this a little bit.
7) Rocky's Horror Show - Hooray, this is pretty much the intended solution! No changes needed here. :thumbsup:
8) Take a Hike - Bah! I'm sure I tested that at some point, but I might need to do something other than extending this gap because I think the level is already at maximum size. I can slap a big ugly hunk of steel in the way, but it will make me sad.
10) Triple Trouble - Nice solution :thumbsup: Getting up to the top with a platformer then a roper is intended so I'm glad you're now doing that. For the rest, I'm not so fussed, you do some funny-looking things with those ropers but it's all good to me. I think this level works better with a bit of flexibility allowed, so no changes needed here.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v27 20th Sep 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on September 20, 2017, 07:17:59 PM

Here's another update in advance of tomorrow's stream. A shame I could not get the entirety of my TODO list completed before this release, but this is the shortest it has ever been. Although to be fair, I am sure tomorrow shall bring a whole host of additional items to my list ;)

v27 changelog:

• Highland 7 Scaling Lem Nevis - I totally forgot that geoo found a crawling route on stream. It's fixed now.
• Outdoor 5 Mud Slinger - Widened level to fix backroute.
• Outdoor 6 Jumping Beans - A few more jumpers, swapped bomber for second flame thrower, added some terrain.
• Outdoor 8 Take a Hike - Big ugly steel wall added to fix backroute.
• Polar 7 Forging Ahead - Raised exit slightly, readded backroute-fixing steel that for some reason I got rid of at some point.
• Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman - This lair must be built on top of a volcano, because some snow at the bottom of the level has melted, and some has fallen from the ceiling in front of the exit! Miner added. There are two variant solutions here I'm aware of, one very similar at a certain point to what Nepster has done before, but this time using all skills, and either is sufficiently complex for me.
• Polar 9 Polar Opposites - This was on my TODO list, but I'm not sure why. Nepster's last solution is pretty much exactly intended. Maybe there was something found on the last stream, but the level has been updated since, so I'm not sure what else it could be. I seem to recall something to do with platformer stacking, so to play it safe I shrunk some gaps and removed 2 platformers. The level takes plenty long enough as it is without watching all those platformers, so it's a win-win.

TODO list (click to show/hide)

Circus 8 Wooly Jumper

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v27 20th Sep 2017}
Post by: Simon on September 22, 2017, 04:16:49 AM

I've won a race for once. Hohohoohohoho. (http://www.lixgame.com/etc/mud-slinger-crawling.mp4)

I'll be happy to re-race Highland, and to race the extra Egyptian tribe. geoo and I will probably schedule a time in 2 weeks, on shorter notice.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v27 20th Sep 2017}
Post by: geoo on September 22, 2017, 06:58:06 AM

Yeah, sounds good to me, in 2-3 weeks.
This was a really good race, going back and forth all the time. And the levels were a lot of fun, just the crawling ruined some of them a bit.

btw, I found an easier crawling setup for one of the Outdoor levels you might want to fix as well, see attached. Just a roper and a platformer.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v28 25th Sep 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on September 25, 2017, 10:31:00 PM

Well here it is. At last. A version where my TODO list is completely empty! Which isn't to say that it will stay that way, of course! Now whatever will I do with all my free time?

v28 changelog:

• Circus 8 Wooly Jumper - This could not be fixed, so replaced it with a new level, Thinking Inside the Box, and moved to slot 7.
• Outdoor 4 Rocks and Hard Places - Level wider to fix direct backroute, more jumpers, higher release rate
• Outdoor 5 Mud Slinger - Terrain changes to fix stupid backroutes, planter swapped for another bomber, release rate tweaked.
• Outdoor 7 Rocky's Horror Show - Major changes to layout, skills and intended solution. Removed Roper and 2 Flame Throwers. Added Platformer, Kayaker, Scooper and a bunch of Jumpers.
• Outdoor 8 Take a Hike - More steel, more water and terrain tweaks. Removed a roper and a jumper.
• Outdoor 9 Life's Greater Porpoise - Flipped the level. Platform near entrance raised. Removed a Platformer.
• Outdoor 10 Triple Trouble - Water under the exit to fix crawling backroute.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v28 25th Sep 2017}
Post by: Ryemanni on September 26, 2017, 07:37:41 AM

Amazing job Kieran! :D I have only watched Simon's and geoo's streams but now I'm starting to feel the urge to play these levels myself.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v28 25th Sep 2017}
Post by: Nepster on September 27, 2017, 04:55:00 PM

Attached the solutions to the modified Highland levels.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

1) Nice intro level.
3) This level is rather hectical as one has to do everything at once without being able to stall one hatch completely.
6) This was a major cause for rage, because one has to start the mortar almost exactly on the trigger area of the exit. If one places it later, then the hole is too high and one cannot start the twister there. But if one places it earlier, then the hole is too far down and the second athlete, who has to hop over the balls, will continue hopping... So one has to decide between assigning the second hopper pixel-precise, so that he lands on the trigger area of the exit, or one has to place the mortar one pixel left of the exit trigger and then start the first hopper frame-precise, so that the athlete won't exit too soon.
Otherwise a nice level idea.
8) This is quite precise, too. The thrower from the bottom has to assigned pretty early or the ball won't land on the platform, but on the Nessy. For this one has to use the mortar quite early to have a hole at the left end of the thin platform. But this in turn means that there is not much space left between the mortar hole and the edge on the left, so one has to avoid flinging the third attractor too far. This makes placing him rather precise.
10) This reminds my very much of a certain highland level in the original game: Creating an ark with the flung balls. This doesn't really feel intended, so I guess you have at least one level to backroute-fix again. ;P

Space 4) One doesn't need any of the bazookas, if one places the jet-pack correctly beyond the trap and then assigns the magno-booters soon enough, before the lemming turns around again.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v28 25th Sep 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on September 29, 2017, 09:39:24 PM

Thanks again Nepster! Looks like I could do with making some of these levels a bit less precise or Hectic. Shouldn't be too hard. Speaking of precision I worry a bit about the new Outdoor 9 Life's Greater Porpoise, I might look to replace that one maybe.

Comments about comments (click to show/hide)

Highland 1 Introducing: Highland - Exactly intended, but probably no surprises there :thumbsup:
Highland 3 A Drop of Scotch - Maybe I should just add another Attractor, make things a bit less hectic, and extend the bottom hatch's path a bit, or something like that. This level doesn't really benefit from being quite so hectic I don't think.
Highland 6 Highland Fling - I guess I should make it so that mortaring from behind the exit does not work, and maybe add an extra thrower to make things a bit easier. You are making this way to hard on yourself.
Highland 7 Scaling Lem Nevis - Exactly intended :thumbsup:
Highland 8 Hopping Mad - I guess there's always gonna be a bit of execution going on here but looks like I could do with extending things a bit more to the right to make the mortar + thrower have more leeway. I think that will help the execution and I don't think it will cause any backroutes?
Highland 10 Telegraph Pole - Oh I should have known that decorative flag would cause a big backroute :(
Space 4 Space Elevator - Well I'm a huge idiot. I see what I've done wrong.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v29 30th Sep 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on September 30, 2017, 03:30:54 PM

I emptied my TODO list again, as well as made some other fixes after a bit more looking over of some of my other recent changes.

v29 changelog:

• Circus 7 Thinking Inside the Box - My ongoing blind spot for direct backroutes continues. Steeled up the middle-top of each box.
• Highland 3 A Drop of Scotch - Added extra Attractor and delayed Lemmings from bottom trapdoor to lower execution requirements.
• Highland 6 Highland Fling - Made minor terrain tweak and added an extra Thrower because I'm a cool dude.
• Highland 8 Hopping Mad - Extended platform to the right a little bit, slowed down the release rate, and added more time, all so that the execution is a bit easier.
• Highland 10 Telegraph Pole - Terrain changes, also 7 less Throwers!
• Outdoor 9 Life's Greater Porpoise - Simplified to remove a load of precision, removed Planter, removed a frog trap, moved down a slot to position 8.
• Space 4 Space Elevator - Added the small hole into the middle blue wall that I forgot because I'm a huge dummy.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 07, 2017, 10:00:58 PM

I went through the entire pack and recorded the author solution to every level, uploading them to Youtube (but currently unlisted) so when the game is released people can see what I intended for levels if they think they've found a backroute. As testing is not finished yet I expect it may be the case I may need to re-record some, but it is no big deal.

While doing this I ended wanted to make a small number of tweaks or fixes to some levels, so that's what this update is. Version 30 is available, as well as version 4 of the lost tribe. After this, all that is left is to convert NeoClassic to the new level format then wait for any further testing that I am aware of. Soon we will be getting close to the Release Candidate!

v30 changelog:

• Beach 4 What a Scoop! moved to position 2.
• Cavelem 2 Take a Quick Stab - Added extra time, a small mushroom and a Club Basher to remove extrmely tight multi-tasking. A 2nd slot level shouldn't need to deal with that.
• Highland 10 Telegraph Pole - Terrain changes to fix backroute, removed both Hoppers.

Lost Tribe v04 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 5 - Beating A Dead Horse - Extra time.
• Lost Tribe 6 - Jumping the Shark - Very minor terrain tweak to undo a mistake where a backroute fix left the level almost impossible without extreme precision (whoops!)
• Lost Tribe 9 - The Temple of Boom - Removed a Climber, Stomper and a Platformer as I found when trying to re-solve the level that these just confused me more than not having them and it turns out they are not necessary, plus extremely minor landscape tweak to fix theoretical backroute.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 13, 2017, 11:23:53 PM

Playing geoo's The Diver Level made me realise one of my Lost Tribe levels was not as immune to backroutes as I thought. If anything, my backroute prevention only made things worse. So I released a quick fix.

Lost Tribe v05 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 4 The Tourist - Better backroute prevention.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: geoo on October 18, 2017, 05:45:32 PM

Race will start in 15 minutes (Wednesday Oct 18th) 18:00 UTC! Streams are live now!
Watch www.multitwitch.tv/simonnaar/geoouw

We'll decide whether Highland tribe or the Bonus-Egyptian tribe at the beginning of the race.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 20, 2017, 07:28:15 PM

Time for a whole bucket-load of fixes as usual after a stream.

Lost Tribe v06 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 1 Two Sides to Every Story - Layout tweaks near right-most exit to fix backroute, also moved to slot 6 as this level is pretty difficult
• Lost Tribe 2 (was 3) Tall Tales - Removed 2 Divers, added Shimmier and Filler. Added some steel.
• Lost Tribe 3 (was 4) The Tourist - Removed 3 Divers and a Stacker.
• Lost Tribe 4 (was 5) Beating a Dead Horse - More steel to fix backroute.
• Lost Tribe 5 (was 6) Jumping the Shark - More Steel
• Lost Tribe 7 Potheads - More Steel
• Lost Tribe 8 Secret Passage - Prevented embarassing direct backroute.
• Lost Tribe 9 The Temple of Boom - Layout tweaks and steel added (and removed) to prevent backroutes and remove precision. Added extra Bazooka. Increased time to maximum, because why not?
• Lost Tribe 10 The Great Hall of Egypt - Removed decorative pillar of crawler-enabling Doom.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 21, 2017, 12:28:13 PM

I have had a change of heart and decided that the backroute Simon found on Lost Tribe 7 Potheads was cool and so is now officially an alternate solution.

Lost Tribe v07 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 7 Potheads - Removed additional steel added in v06.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: Simon on October 22, 2017, 06:33:57 AM

I'd like to find the Potheads intended solution, too. Where did you put extra steel in Lost Tribe v06?

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If extra steel prevents my right-to-left scooper from the stream, then here's my alternative solution idea.

1. Scoop with first lem to trap crowd.
2. Cancel the scooper by assigning ballooner when hole is deep enough for list item #9.
3. Assign parachuter to a stray walker.
4. Balloon the parachuter to behind the exit.
5. Spear leftwards from behind the exit, to break the crowd's fall towards the exit.
6. Balloon the parachuter to the top right of the terrain.
7. Scoop leftwards, coming out of the the (hole between the final two pillars)'s right wall.
8. Rope leftwards to cover the hole.
9. Fence leftwards, connecting with the scooper tunnel from list item #1, freeing the crowd.

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 22, 2017, 07:02:11 AM

The steel in v06 covered the surface of the floor between the first and second pot preventing you from

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

extending the fencer via the filler + spear. It was the thinnest possible steel, added to the left of the existing steel

Your proposed idea falls down at step 8. The gap is about 3 pixels too long to rope across.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: geoo on October 24, 2017, 08:46:56 AM

Resolved Outdoor 8-9, and Bonus 2 and 6 for now.

Outdoor 7 attempt: https://go.twitch.tv/videos/183209854## at 11:45 (valid for another week or so)
The other levels, see attached.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Outdoor 7: I messed up at the end, but if you stop the first scooper earlier, you might be able to platform over the first second scooper tunnel. I haven't tried the level since then.
Outdoor 8: Bomber route saves a kayaker, due to lack of alternatives I almost think this might be intended.
Outdoor 9: Looks like another backroute. Note that you can also setup crawling at the end instead, then you don't have to flame through the wooden pillar (and can use it somewhere else). But it's more annoying to pull off. I messed up with releasing the crowd at the end,
 but you can imagine how that's supposed to work.
Bonus 2: I fiddled around and got surprised by a variety of physics (can assign shimmier after sliding down platform, shimmier can't always shimmy 2 px down, but seems to shimmy 2 px up, climber doesn't slide down when hitting the ceiling) but in the end I managed to do it. The bottom spearer is actually not necessary.
Bonus 6: Another backroute, hard to pull off but works. Might be easy to fix if you can remove the slopey block that I spear against.

btw, would you be interested if I recorded videos of my attempts with commentary?

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 25, 2017, 09:42:30 PM

Hi geoo, sorry it's taken so long to respond. Been a busy week.

Thanks for the screenshots. I'll provide comments as usual. If it is easier for you to just record your attempts, I am more than happy to watch. Sometimes it can be just as helpful to see what people try and fail at.

Comments (click to show/hide)

Outdoor 7 Rocky's Horror Show - This is actually the general gist of the old intended solution before I majorly revamped the level to remove the roper, you would have used a rope to get up your scooper tunnel. So if you do manage to pull this off, then I'm OK with it. Of course there's a slightly different solution now.
Outdoor 8 Take a Hike - Bah it's really looking like I am going to keep struggling to enforce this unless I remove the flame thrower and find some other way of doing what needs to be done. But with so many ropers and the scoopers, It's gonna be difficult.
Outdoor 9 Life's Greater Porpoise - Yep this is intended. I guess the level just kinda sucks? Maybe I should think about making something better. The last level of this tribe is fun, maybe another level kind of like that. Bombing people out of the water is a cool trick, but I'm guessing it wasn't all that fun to solve? I should try a bit harder.
Lost Tribe 2 Tall Tales - Honestly not sure here whether I should try to kill this off, or elevate it to Official Alternate Solution status. I like what you did, it's not even remotely right but it's still kinda cool.
Lost Tribe 6 Two Sides to Every Story - I think the only real solution now is to swap out the hang glider for something like a pole vaulter and associated layout tweaks to accomodate that, or something similar. Curse the fan's really strong effect on the hang glider! I's too powerful!

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: geoo on October 27, 2017, 10:13:42 PM

Broken two more levels of the lost tribe. :P

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Bonus 6: I didn't actually pull off the backroutes, but I'm certain they work.
First approach involves fanning a parachuter into the wall and assigning a platformer from there. A lot of variations possible I think, could place the platform right enough that it starts right of the exit and the crowd will just go home. Or dig through it. Or seal the little gap and platform over the water and be less wasteful with platformers at the top (sending a climber out instead of closing a tunnel with a platform).
Second approach is glitchless, but involves more hard assignments. One variation could be having the swimmer/climber jump onto the belly of the bottom-most vase, and platform from there. Third climber mines through platform near the vase and fills the gap with two sand pourers. 4 pourers for the big pile is enough if you stomp two pixels deeper at the left (which means the stomper placement is actually pixel precise). There might be other variations that work. Elevating the second part of the long platform by 2 px by not assigning to a shrugger might also help a bit.

Bonus 8: I used the roper hook to from, but if you bomb low enough that's not even necessary. The runner currently dies, but by assigning the second lem a pourer to turn around you don't need the runner at all, thus saving 59. I also noticed a glitch that when you explode a lemming currently roping, you can't use the roper skill anymore. So no ropers for easing bomber placement :(

Comments on comments:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I actually enjoyed Life's Greater Porpoise, I first figured I somehow have to bomb (only extra skill) to get the platformer turned around, but then you have that branch so that if you bomb, you actually create a gap they get stuck in, and from the top doesn't work either. After some time I figured I can just fling the kayaker out of the water, which is kinda cool. The behaviour is a bit obscure,
 but in its current state there's really not much wiggle room with the skills so sooner or later you'll have to use some lateral thinking.
 So I think the level is just right the way it is.
Rocky's Horror Show: If my solution works then I feel the level is not very interesting and the solution just a matter of annoying execution, with one worker doing all the set up in a straight-forward way. I'm actually not 100% confident that it works, tbh I hope it doesn't, nevertheless it's very compelling to try but trying is expensive as it's at the very end of a long sequence of skill placements.
Tall Tales: I'm very curious what the idea is here and wouldn't mind a fix (if you can eliminate my solution somehow). Note that I tried a variety of things which failed, and only discovered the spearer setup at the very end, so this might enable also some of the variations I was working on.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: mobius on October 29, 2017, 04:13:36 PM

I streamed a little bit of Shadow and sports today:

https://www.twitch.tv/videos/186042808

the 1 level I solved was very fun :D

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v30 7th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 29, 2017, 07:59:22 PM

Thanks geoo and mobius. Sorry you're finding it hard mobius, but glad you're ejoying it! :thumbsup: By the way your solution to Shadow 5 Into the Hidden City was intended.

Responding to geoo:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Lost Tribe 5 Jumping the Shark - Regarding solution A, that bug is gross and will cause huge problems. I could fix it by finding a way to ditch the parachuter, but I don't really want to do that, so I think instead I will just say that like the blocker crawling glitch that's one bug I am not going to fix. It will be a shame if there can be no decoration at all, only a massive big gap of empty space, and I know the parachuter is not the only skill you can use this bug with. As for solution B, I definitely need to fix that one, but shouldn't be too hard.

Lost Tribe 8 Secret Passage - I think I'm going to have to get rid of the sand pourers here. Fortunately I should be able to manage some replacements to fill the same role.

Outdoor 9 Life's Greater Porpoise - Alright if you think it's OK then I'll leave the level as-is.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v31 29th Oct 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on October 29, 2017, 11:19:24 PM

It's time for yet another update. One day all the small tweaks and improvements will finally end. But today is not that day.

v31 changelog:

• Cavelem 5 Flappy Lem - Extremely minor terrain tweak to prevent the club basher from constantly failing to perform what you would think would be an extremely simple task for stupid reasons. It is a bad skill.
• Highland 1 Introducing: Highland - It turns out the attractor was not necessary, and also it was really boring waiting ages for the very slow release rate to get everyone to the exit. Both issues now fixed.
• Highland 8 Hopping Mad - This level was really fiddly, so I have replaced it with a new level that is a different kind of fiddly, Plot Twist. But to be fair, all Highland levels are fiddly.
• Outdoor 8 Take A Hike - Major skill changes and minor terrain changes.

Lost Tribe v08 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 2 Tall Tales - Raised water level ever so slightly so you can't jump over it.
• Lost Tribe 5 Jumping the Shark - Fixed non-buggy direct route backroute with minor terrain tweaks.
• Lost Tribe 6 Two Sides to Every Story - Removed a Spearer and the Hang Glider, added 2 Pole Vaulters. Changed landscape to accommodate this.
• Lost Tribe 8 Secret Passage - Replaced all Sand Pourers with a Filler and 4 extra Magic Carpets, because if there's one thing this Tribe didn't have enough of, it's Magic Carpets. Also some minor terrain tweaks.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v31 29th Oct 2017}
Post by: geoo on November 04, 2017, 11:00:09 PM

Played some levels on stream, the recordings are online for 14 days:

October 30, mostly Shadow and a bit of Medieval and new Circus level: https://go.twitch.tv/videos/186370382
kieran's live commentary: https://www.nordicbots.com/?id=73&net=quakenet&cid=81576&year=2017&month=10&day=30

November 2, some Space and Polar and Egypt 9: https://go.twitch.tv/videos/187092776
kieran's live commentary: https://www.nordicbots.com/?id=73&net=quakenet&cid=81576&year=2017&month=11&day=2

November 4, Sports 6, Egypt 10 and a lot of Lost Tribe: https://go.twitch.tv/videos/187653215
kieran's commentary this time in the twitch chat.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v32 6th Nov 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on November 06, 2017, 10:17:39 PM

Thanks to geoo's streams there was a whole bunch of fixes and adjustments to make:

v32 changelog:

• Beach 8 Gnarly 180 Flip - Significant layout changes, added Surfer. Extra time.
• Circus 7 Thinking Inside the Box - Removed decorative pedastals that caused a backroute, plus made steel walls taller.
• Egyptian 9 A Sticky Situation - Removed water and all steel, some terrain tweaks.
• Medieval 7 The Castle Cellar - Smoothed out the ceiling wall by turning them into crates to avoid bizarre slider behaviour, tiny tweak to end of crate stack for clarity.
• Polar 6 Snow Drifts - A little bit of steel on the central block to prevent backroute.
• Polar 7 Forging Ahead - Change to decoration to prevent world's dumbest glitch.
• Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman - Added a little bit of steel to prevent a backroute.
• Polar 10 Grotty Grotto - Steel to fix another crawling route, more time.
• Shadow 7 On the Rooftops - Added steel to fix backroute, added more terrain near entrance to fix unintended behaviour.
• Shadow 10 Alley-Oop! - Extended water near entrance to fix a backroute.
• Space 4 Space Elevator - Added steel directly below teleporters.
• Space 8 Space Rescue - Removed all Jumpers, added a Magno Booter and Platformer, central gap is a bit wider.

Lost Tribe v09 changelog:

• Lost Tribe 2 Tall Tales - Added steel above the blue vase.
• Lost Tribe 5 Jumping The Shark - Added big central wall, also a small ledge to make survivable fall more obviously survivable.
• Lost Tribe 6 Two Sides to Every Story - Added steel to prevent possible backroute.
• Lost Tribe 8 Secret Chamber - Massive changes to basically everything.
• Lost Tribe 10 The Great Hall of Egypt - Terrain tweak in bottom-right corner of the level.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v32 6th Nov 2017}
Post by: Simon on November 24, 2017, 03:52:31 PM

Race against geoo in Highland tonight, Friday 24th, at 19:00 UTC. We have played Highland some months ago, but Kieran has backroute-fixed many levels. It will be a fresh challenge.

https://www.twitch.tv/simonnaar
https://www.twitch.tv/geoouw
http://www.multitwitch.tv/simonnaar/geoouw

-- Simon

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v33 29th Nov 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on November 29, 2017, 11:37:04 PM

Well it looks like we're finally here. After all of the superb and extensive testing by Simon, geoo and Nepster, this pack now has what I believe is the final Release Candidate available, version 33. I'm looking to make the final release within the next month before 2017 is over.

It's been a hell of a journey. An incredibly fun one I'm happy to say. Although I do now twitch involuntarily any time somebody says the word "crawling".

v33 changelog:

• Highland 4 What Bagpipers Deserve - Reduced number of hopper gaps to prevent backroute.
• Highland 5 Can't Zig While Zagging - More Twsters for ease of execution.
• Highland 8 Plot Twist - Removed hopper, small tweaks to accomodate this.
• Highland 10 Telegraph Pole - Now only one trapdoor, more Sliders, terrain tweaks.

EDIT: Oh yeah, i still need to update NeoClassic. Time to experience the new formats version of Neolemmix maybe?

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v33 29th Nov 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on December 02, 2017, 04:59:45 PM

I have updated NeoClassic in the new formats Neolemmix, and you will find it attached to the first post. Unlike before, this time levels were rebuilt with the original pieces rather than taking a screenshot of the level, so the levels are not exact, but are basically the same layout. A few pixels different here and there hopefully makes no practical differences.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v33 29th Nov 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on December 05, 2017, 07:48:13 PM

I have decided to set the release date of this pack to be Monday 11th December, wherein I will move it out of the In Development board, unless anyone has reason to object for some reason. Besides it's not like I couldn't make more updates once its released if any major issues are found, although I feel confident at this stage that there won't be any.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v33 29th Nov 2017}
Post by: geoo on December 07, 2017, 10:38:14 PM

Played a few levels on stream to which I hadn't found the intended solution yet. Got some intended solutions and some backroutes. Video here (valid for 14 days): https://www.twitch.tv/videos/207544468

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v34 18th Dec 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on December 18, 2017, 12:17:00 PM

Another update to fix geoo's latest set of backroutes. So much for releasing last week hah!

v34 changelog:

• Classic 7 Pillar Thriller - Terrain tweaks to prevent backroute.
• Outdoor 9 Take a Hike - Major skill and layout changes.
• Polar 8 Lair of the Evil Snowman - Level is now taller and wider to fix some backroutes. Level now has max time.
• Shadow 7 On the Rooftops - A bit more steel under the right-most traps.
• Space 8 Space Rescue - Added airlock trap to bottom of start area.

I also updated Neoclassic to mirror the changes made to level 7 Pillar Thriller. In addition, I previously misunderstood how the new Neolemmix treats release rates, so all of the levels have had their release rates corrected to exactly mirror those in L2. Finally, I have added a new download, QFK_NeoClassic_music, which contains music for the L2's Classic Tribe. If you extract this into your NeoLemmix music folder, all of the NeoClassic levels will have L2's Classic Tribe music.

Title: Re: [Lemmings 2] Quest From Kieran 2 {v34 18th Dec 2017}
Post by: kieranmillar on December 31, 2017, 07:17:49 PM

I'm going to have another go at doing the final release for QFK2. Sometime in the next week I'll close this thread and post a main release.

After mobius's stream today there are two more changes to be made. I will not be posting a new release because they are only minor, but will be in the full release:

• Cavelem 1 Introducing: Cavelem - Tweaked steel and tterrain near exit to prevent backroute.
• Egyptian 6 Inner Sanctum - Removed steel from below trap so that it actually works.