[suggestion][editor]One-Way-Up Arrows

[bulletride]

We have one-way-left/right arrows and one-way-down arrows what do you guys think about a potential one-way-up arrow? The terrain would be able to be bashed through but you could not dig/mine through it.

[namida]

This idea has been suggested in the past, and didn't really get much attention. It does somewhat fit logically, in that in the same way one-way left and one-way right arrows are opposites, so would be one-way down and one-way up by this rule (ignoring that bombers could destroy both). But I don't recall it getting enough support for it to be implemented.

Still, I'll allow discussion here to continue, in case people are more in favor of it now.

[bulletride]

I can see how they might not have gotten much attention as they would be pretty niche. I greedily want them to prevent a backroute to a level I just made but im sure there are some cool levels you can make with them.

[Proxima]

I've always been in favour: it's a logical extension of the concept. [EDIT: I would keep BulletRide's original interpretation: able to be bashed but not mined/dug. This is the opposite of one-way down arrows, and intuitively it seems to offer more interesting puzzle potential than the alternative, a bomber-only wall.]

[namida]

One thing that was brought up in IRC: Simon said he would interpret them as not being destroyable by any skill except the bomber. The rule being that a basher can't destroy arrows at a 90 degree angle from him, while the miner and digger obviously can't as they oppose the direction of the arrows. Hypothetically, a future "upwards basher" skill could destroy such arrows (which would remain true for the original suggestion too).

The interpretation I see - and would have myself - however, is that they would be the opposite of one-way down arrows in regards to non-bomber skills: bashers can, miners and diggers can't.

Both of these seem logical. I would suggest maybe some kind of anti-basher field represented some way other than upwards arrows, but I'm not sure if I want to set that precedent - otherwise, is "terrain that can be bombed and dug but not mined, and can only be bashed on Fridays" a decent request too? Probably not, but what about "terrain that can only be mined", or "bomber-proof terrain that can be destroyed by other skills"? Not that I'm saying we shouldn't have such a thing, but perhaps we should consider exactly where we want to be going with destruction-proof terrain?

[namida]

I made this as a mockup of what might be a more suitable design than upwards-pointing arrows for basher-only terrain. The general animation, I presume, would be that one row moves to the left, the next row moves to the right, etc.

[Simon]

Simon said he would interpret them as not being destroyable by any skill except the bomber. The rule being that a basher can't destroy arrows at a 90 degree angle from him, while the miner and digger obviously can't as they oppose the direction of the arrows.

Take with a grain of salt. Diggers can plow through sidewards arrows that are 90 degrees off, therefore it's strange that bashers cannot go through downwards arrows that are 90 degrees off. In light of this inconsistency, my natural reaction to upwards arrows would be to make no assumptions, and try out every single destructive skill.

Proxima offers a meaningful interpretation of (upwards arrow = allow bash, forbid mine and dig), provided exploders have no direction, or all directions at the same time. Good with me.

Re: Friday-only terrain: I have the same reservation. I consider the downwards arrows strange already.

Forbidding skills in certain areas, that reeks like brute-force level design. Is it elegant? Even in L1, one-way walls don't forbid any skills, they forbid directions. The NL downwards arrows are explicit no-basher zones. Would you accept no-builder force fields in mid-air?

-- Simon

[Nepster]

I have no opinion yet on upwards arrows, but namida's suggested image should not be used: Currently designers can place overlapping right-OWWs and left-OWWs, which look extremely similar, but have the opposite effect: Only diggers (and bombers) can remove this terrain.

[namida]

Currently designers can place overlapping right-OWWs and left-OWWs, which look extremely similar, but have the opposite effect: Only diggers (and bombers) can remove this terrain.

This would work on the experimental version, but not the stable version; on the stable version, whichever kind of one-way comes last in the object list would simply override the other one, just like it would in Lemmix.

Besides, avoiding such a case would be a prime example of "changing everything just to account for that bad design potential exists".

[Nepster]

Sorry, but I completely fail to see the point you want to make?

This would work on the experimental version, but not the stable version; on the stable version, whichever kind of one-way comes last in the object list would simply override the other one, just like it would in Lemmix.

...and one-way-up arrows will be added to the experimental version (if at all).

Besides, avoiding such a case would be a prime example of "changing everything just to account for that bad design potential exists".

Where does "bad design potential" come into play here? My argument was, that people are used to left and right-OWWs and your suggestion looks pretty similar. So they might think "Ah, this object is just a combination of the two usual arrows", leading to the completely wrong expectations.

[namida]

Okay, coming back to this one, a change I'm making for the next update is that if you flip / rotate a one-way-wall, the direction of its effect changes too. For example, if you horizontal flip a one-way-left arrow, it becomes a one-way-right arrow.

So if you invert a one-way-down arrow, or rotate (and invert if need be) a one-way-left/right arrow, you would end up with one-way up arrows.

I'm going with the "only bombers can destroy them" effect here, as I'm thinking that if bashers can't destroy walls at a 90 degree angle in one direction, they shouldn't be able to in the other either. It's of course logical that miners and diggers can't destroy a one-way down arrow. In fact, even if bashers could destroy one-way-down arrows, I would think there's still a valid argument for not letting them destroy one-way-up arrows: Visually, their stroke starts at the top and moves downwards, essentially meaning they destroy the terrain in a downwards direction (within a single stroke). So I think not allowing them to destroy one-way-up arrows is very much justified.

In the event that Fencer does get added, they would be able to destroy these one-way-up arrows. Likewise, if a laserblaster skill were ever considered (though this one, unlike Fencer, is very unlikely to happen), they would also be able to destroy them.

[mobius]

very nice idea; simpler design, I like it