Author Topic: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML  (Read 6499 times)

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Offline Proxima

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Re: My Lemmings Discussion Thread
« Reply #30 on: October 29, 2018, 07:41:53 pm »
Yes, blockers will be released if you remove the terrain they're standing on. In the screenshot position, you could mine further to the left so the crowd go under the blocker, then have a lemming build to turn round so he comes up the terrain directly under the blocker, then use a miner to remove it.

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #31 on: October 29, 2018, 08:01:41 pm »
Yes, blockers will be released if you remove the terrain they're standing on. In the screenshot position, you could mine further to the left so the crowd go under the blocker, then have a lemming build to turn round so he comes up the terrain directly under the blocker, then use a miner to remove it.
That's what I was trying to do, but I couldn't use any skills to Lemmings close to the blocker. I ended up placing the blocker on the ball arc, which meant I could assign a Basher to a Lemming far away from the blocker, so I didn't have this issue.
« Last Edit: October 29, 2018, 08:41:41 pm by Simon »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #32 on: October 30, 2018, 07:22:28 am »
Don't remember if it's any different in Windows Lemmings, but in DOS Lemmings if I recall correctly, if you cover both a blocker and a normal walking lemming within your mouse cursor, preference for skill assignment goes to the blocker.  This is good if you are trying to assign exploder to the blocker, but is terrible for other skills for which you'd want to assign to the non-blocker lemming (though to be fair, only one or two levels in the game actually require you to free a blocker).

Fortunately since the two lemmings are almost never in exactly the same position, if you position your mouse cursor carefully you should be able to only have the non-blocker lemming hit the cursor without also getting the blocker one, then you should be able to assign skill as desired.  For example in your picture I'd try shifting the cursor further left and down.  (Also, the miner's stroke may reach far enough that it could probably still free the blocker starting from slightly farther away.)

Alternatively, in DOS Lemmings you can hold down the right mouse button and then click with the left button to assign in "priority inversion mode".  Roughly speaking this will let you assign skill to the non-prioritized lemming instead, in situations where the cursor covers multiple lemmings and one is prioritized like the blocker.  In certain other ports like the Mac you would hold down some key like Alt to activate this mode instead of holding down right mouse button.  Not sure if this kind of option exists in Windows Lemmings.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #33 on: October 30, 2018, 07:33:33 am »
Actually, further testing shows that while DOS Lemmings prioritizes the blocker, it looks like it will also usually automatically fall back to the non-prioritized lemming for skill assignments that cannot be performed on the prioritized lemming, such as many skills on a blocker.  Maybe Windows Lemmings does not have this fallback behavior so the skill assignment doesn't go to the walker as easily as it would in DOS Lemmings for the situation in your picture.

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #34 on: October 30, 2018, 10:21:58 am »
Why did you change the title, Simon? ???
Alternatively, in DOS Lemmings you can hold down the right mouse button and then click with the left button to assign in "priority inversion mode".  Roughly speaking this will let you assign skill to the non-prioritized lemming instead, in situations where the cursor covers multiple lemmings and one is prioritized like the blocker.  In certain other ports like the Mac you would hold down some key like Alt to activate this mode instead of holding down right mouse button.  Not sure if this kind of option exists in Windows Lemmings.
Woah, I didn't know there were any advanced selection options in the original Lemmings!

Online Simon

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #35 on: October 30, 2018, 12:11:13 pm »
Why did you change the title, Simon? ???

You defined what this topic is about:

Quote
to share whatever I [= 607] want to share in one, nice, topic
only be used for the original Lemmings and perhaps ONML discussion

Accordingly, the topic title should be precise. Help your readers infer what the topic is not about. :thumbsup:
  • "607" is more robust than "My". For example, neither the forum's list of recently updated topics nor the IRC bots print the name of original poster. These announcers print only topic title and the name of the last poster.
  • You plan to post about original Lemmings and perhaps ONML whereas "Lemmings" could mean all games within the trademark.
  • Every topic contains a discussion. Every topic is a topic. Thus "discussion topic" can be safely cut to declutter.
-- Simon
« Last Edit: October 30, 2018, 12:17:41 pm by Simon »

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #36 on: October 30, 2018, 04:16:41 pm »
You defined what this topic is about:

Quote
to share whatever I [= 607] want to share in one, nice, topic
only be used for the original Lemmings and perhaps ONML discussion

Accordingly, the topic title should be precise. Help your readers infer what the topic is not about. :thumbsup:
  • "607" is more robust than "My". For example, neither the forum's list of recently updated topics nor the IRC bots print the name of original poster. These announcers print only topic title and the name of the last poster.
  • You plan to post about original Lemmings and perhaps ONML whereas "Lemmings" could mean all games within the trademark.
  • Every topic contains a discussion. Every topic is a topic. Thus "discussion topic" can be safely cut to declutter.
-- Simon
All of that makes perfect sense, it just feels rather unnecessary. :P I'm not offended by it or anything, but it feels unusual having my topic suddenly under a different title.

Related to the discussion topic (and not solely to playing as the title now suggests, but I will in fact make a new topic if I start writing more about this): last night I got a lot of ideas for custom levels again, so I might start creating Lemmings levels another time... however, I want to finish the main Lemmings game first, as I feel like I've always started designing levels too early. If I've completed the original game, I should have more experience with level design in general, and I might be able to create challenging levels myself, instead of the tutorial levels my previous attempts have mostly been restricted to.

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #37 on: October 30, 2018, 05:05:32 pm »
Well, this was a very messy solution. :P This was my second attempt, and as my first didn't work out well from the start I decided to consider a bit about how I should start, and I did what you see at the start of this video. However, I hadn't thought the rest through, and mostly improvised... but it worked! :thumbsup:
https://youtu.be/ucigdER5IzQ

Offline Forestidia86

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2018, 06:22:35 pm »
Alternatively, in DOS Lemmings you can hold down the right mouse button and then click with the left button to assign in "priority inversion mode".  Roughly speaking this will let you assign skill to the non-prioritized lemming instead, in situations where the cursor covers multiple lemmings and one is prioritized like the blocker.  In certain other ports like the Mac you would hold down some key like Alt to activate this mode instead of holding down right mouse button.  Not sure if this kind of option exists in Windows Lemmings.

The help file of Winlemm says the ctrl button is for assign to walker. Though I can't say if right click has the same effect.
Winlemm has directional select with the arrow keys, too.

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2018, 07:44:40 pm »
The help file of Winlemm says the ctrl button is for assign to walker. Though I can't say if right click has the same effect.
Winlemm has directional select with the arrow keys, too.
Ah, thanks! I couldn't find a help file, any help button I clicked opened Edge or gave an error.
Yes, directional select is useful. :) I now realise I could maybe have used that to free that blocker!


It's time for Curse of the Pharaoh... with How Much is that Doggie in the Window, apparently. :P
I already love how you can kill one Lemming, and get 1 blocker and 20 bombers. ;P
At first this level seemed really easy, but it's not so trivial as it looks. There not being directional select makes things a little more difficult, as it's inadvisable to rely on inside bashers to free the crowd.
Aw... I ran into an issue of getting the crowd up to the final basher tunnel, but it looked like I was going to save it: and then I didn't, as one Lemming got stuck in the terrain. I do notice I've got a digger... maybe I can use that somewhere.
And I did end up using it, for this trick!
I had two bashers left over, though. I wonder if there's a different intended method?

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #40 on: October 31, 2018, 03:25:26 pm »
Hey, Pillars of Hercules! I beat that very recently in Lemmings for mobile phones! It's probably different here, though...
Actually, I can use the same solution... and it's an easy one to execute.

I feel like this isn't the intended solution. :P

Edit: I'm continuing, even after WAFD. ;)
Oh! I think The Far Side is a new level? Not a repeat? This looks like something I've never seen before! Which isn't too surprising, as the terrain seems tough to work with, even on a 20 of everything...
I did find a good way through it relatively quickly, but had one issue: there's no directional select, and I didn't have too many builders to waste for getting the crowd out. Then I invented a way to have directional select in such situations, in the original game: assign a Lemming a floater or climber, and follow it to see which way it's going! Lemmings with skills assigned have priority, after all.
However... then I realised there was a bigger issue. There's a time limit. :lem-shocked:
Edit 2: Okay, the floater trick isn't working... however, I got an idea for another trick to use for that part! I can let a Lemming build the first half of the bridge early, when there are still so little Lemmings that I can select the right one. Lemmings will then only move in the right direction on top of that bridge. :)
Edit 3: This is how I contained the crowd! I wonder if anyone used another way?

And hooray, I beat it! I kept forgetting that my worker Lemming was a climber, so I'd accidentally let him climb up the steel to the exit. However, the time limit was lenient enough to let the crowd finish the building. :)
Edit 4: I guess I'm not stopping yet, as I had quite some time today after an exam, and was too tired to study... (plus I've studied enough already the past days) and Lemmings seemed like a fun way to relax!
The next level, The Great Lemming Caper, also doesn't seem familiar (is it a non-repeat as well?), and it's another 100% save rating level! :D
This seemed like a very difficult level, and then I realised: there are only two Lemmings! :lem-mindblown: Now that's interesting!
Now, I thought I was stumped here, as there are only 2 builders, which are both clearly needed to build, so there's no way to turn a Lemming around. Then I remembered hearing about this trick...

But I'm almost certain that it can't be intended to use it, as it's a counterintuitive trick... But how else would it be possible to solve this level? I'm considering looking it up, but I feel like one of you might be able to give me a hint. ;) For now: I've beaten the level! :D
Edit 5: Pea Soup is an easy level at this point, but the terrain is very creative!
And now I'm finally quitting. I've got to make dinner soon, and I don't know how long the next level might take. ;)
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 04:36:37 pm by 607 »

Offline Proxima

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #41 on: October 31, 2018, 05:04:17 pm »
For the majority of original levels, we don't know whether the designers ever had a specific "intended solution" in mind, and they certainly weren't all that concerned about preventing alternatives, given the abundance of extra skills and different possible approaches.

Pillars of Hercules can be solved by the left or right route, or by going through the terrain at the top.

The Far Side is indeed not a repeat. I always contained the crowd by one of the methods you mentioned, building only half of the bridge out of the starting area, then leaving them there until near the end.

The Great Lemming Caper is a repeat of Nightmare on Lem Street. You probably forgot this because the Fun version is one of the quickest and most forgettable levels: just build over both gaps and you're done.

Indeed, it has several different solutions without using glitches. Nessy even made a compilation video showing off a number of them. Your solution can actually be made glitch-free with a very small change, given that you have a large number of destructive skills.

However, there's one particular solution that's extremely elegant, so that I've always thought it was probably what the designer intended. If you want a hint towards finding this solution... it's not so very different, but the second builder should be in a different place.

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #42 on: October 31, 2018, 06:08:30 pm »
However, there's one particular solution that's extremely elegant, so that I've always thought it was probably what the designer intended. If you want a hint towards finding this solution... it's not so very different, but the second builder should be in a different place.
Ah, right, of course! Yes, that's very nice. :)

Offline grams88

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #43 on: October 31, 2018, 10:16:47 pm »
It's a nice solution. There are a few different ways to solve that level. That's actually a really good level as I feel it has a puzzle element attached to it.

With the (Curse of the Pharaoh) level I sometimes use some of the builders in the middle of the level before bashing the pyramid I build back over so that it gives the lemmings a massive walk before they get back to the pyramid so that there are not loads of lemmings when it comes to building to the exit as you could end up building the wrong way otherwise.  Actually thinking about it that might be more of a unique solution well maybe not. :)

Go for it 607, you are doing good. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
« Last Edit: October 31, 2018, 10:23:41 pm by grams88 »

Offline 607

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Re: 607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML
« Reply #44 on: November 02, 2018, 08:02:19 pm »
It's a nice solution. There are a few different ways to solve that level. That's actually a really good level as I feel it has a puzzle element attached to it.

With the (Curse of the Pharaoh) level I sometimes use some of the builders in the middle of the level before bashing the pyramid I build back over so that it gives the lemmings a massive walk before they get back to the pyramid so that there are not loads of lemmings when it comes to building to the exit as you could end up building the wrong way otherwise.  Actually thinking about it that might be more of a unique solution well maybe not. :)

Go for it 607, you are doing good. :thumbsup::thumbsup:
I was waiting for your response! :D

Also: I learnt today that I don't actually know what solution you mean... as climbers can't climb through bridges/stairs, and there would be a lot of precision required to let the climber first climb past the unfinished bridge and then land on top of it.