607 plays Lemmings 1 and ONML

[607]

Descriptive title, right?
Anyway, even though some people told me to make a new topic every time I had something to ask or something, I'm making this topic to share whatever I want to share in one, nice, topic. This will only be used for the original Lemmings and perhaps ONML discussion, though.
Anyway, I just got Lemmings working again, which went very smoothly, found my passwords again, which went very smoothly too, and beat Taxing 25 (Follow the Leader), and even that went very smoothly! I remember being stuck on that one for some time last time I played this game.
I noticed I got 100% of the Lemmings saved, while the requirement is 90%. Are they just being unnecessarily lenient or is there an intended solution I'm missing, that only saves 90%?

[Proxima]

While we don't know what was intended, the solution to Follow the Leader I always used as a kid was to use bombers to make a hole to trap the crowd.

[607]

While we don't know what was intended, the solution to Follow the Leader I always used as a kid was to use bombers to make a hole to trap the crowd.

Ah, that's interesting. Yeah, than 90% would seem much more appropriate.

Anyway, I beat two more levels, and have quite a decent pace going, I wonder if I can keep this up!
Soon, I'll be at Mayhem, of which I have always been scared upon trying the first level as a kid...

[Flopsy]

90% is still lenient despite the bomber method to Follow the Leader because you only need to blow up 2 lemmings.

I've only just recently discovered that the Amiga version and Mac versions of Lemmings had higher save requirements on numerous Taxing and Mayhem levels in general.

[Proxima]

Yup. The Amiga version is the original, so the DOS version relaxed the requirements on several levels. Let's see if I can remember all of them:

Fun 15 -- 80% on Amiga/Mac, 50% on DOS. Not that it matters as the normal "block the crowd" method saves 97% in any case.

Taxing 22 -- 100% on Amiga/Mac, 80% on DOS. When I played this as a kid, I solved it with a very elegant short-route solution, but there are several possible methods including the long route.

Taxing 25 -- Already mentioned.

Mayhem 4 -- 100%, 10 bashers only on Amiga/Mac, 80%, 20 bashers, 10 bombers on DOS.

Mayhem 15 -- 95%, 2 minutes on Amiga/Mac, 75%, 3 minutes on DOS. This makes the DOS level easier than its Tricky equivalent

Mayhem 26 -- 90%, 10 bombers, blockers, builders on Amiga/Mac, 75%, 20 bombers, blockers, buiders on DOS. Note that the Amiga version has 100 lemmings, so you can lose 10. On the Mac, they forgot to adjust the percentage, so you can only lose eight, making this level ridiculously difficult.

[607]

Wait, where was the taxing 25 change mentioned? What was it on Amiga?

[Proxima]

Sorry, I confused the two discussions. Taxing 25 is 90% on both versions, but you can save 100%, as you noted.

[607]

Today I beat POOR WEE CREATURES! which took around half an hour. I had the right idea very quickly, but it needed quite some precision. I still managed to save some more than needed though, so I'm happy!

[607]

Continued playing, and How do I dig up the way? was quite easy. I did make one mistake first try, but second try went perfectly fine.
Then I thought "Should I do the last level today too? Being the last level of Taxing, it might be long and hard... ah, let's try it."
We all fall down xD
We know that level's a joke by now :rolleyes:
I first failed it once, as I didn't realise there was a tight time limit on it now, but then I upped the release rate and got way over a minute left on the clock
I'll try to remember my strategy and do the Mayhem one in one try once it comes up

[607]

I've been at Steel Works for the past 30 minutes now, but I'm very tired, so I'll probably leave it for another day.

[Flopsy]

@Proxima Thanks for detailing those differences in Taxing/Mayhem levels.
I noticed the one on Fast Food Kitchen during roundthewheel's stream recently and thought it was easier to do the Mayhem one obviously if you can multitask. It's 94% to be saved on the Tricky one and then it goes down to 75% on Mayhem??
Taxing 22 is 100% to be saved on the PSP lemmings aswell but the time limits in that game are just too high in general. They did it to make up for the slower lemmings but they gave too much time to compensate.
Steel Mines of Kessel in 8 bombers is truely ridiculous though!

@607 Poor Wee Creatures is not one of my favourite levels. I find it easier on games which go up to 100 lemmings. I've most notably played the PS1 Lemmings entirely on my Youtube channel and that only goes up to 80 Lemmings.
I think the save requirement is 70% on all versions but that means 70/100 lemmings or 56/80 lemmings meaning in versions with 80 lemmings you have to kill 6 fewer lemmings. I think even if you're flawless on the solution, you still lose 22 lemmings by the time you've contained the lemmings.

Good luck on Steel works, you need good builder management and maybe even good time management to get through that. I always finish that level with about 1 min remaining and nearly use all 30 builders.

[grams88]

The (Follow the leader) level did seem a bit on the easy side me thinks. I think the idea they were getting at was making use of the landscape to trap the lemmings.

Do let us know how you get on with the Mayhem levels 607.

Some of them can be a nightmare.

[grams88]

Hi 607

How are you getting on with the Mayhem levels or have you completed the lemmings? I bet it was the atari st lemmings you were playing which is the same one I played.

[607]

Hi 607

How are you getting on with the Mayhem levels or have you completed the lemmings? I bet it was the atari st lemmings you were playing which is the same one I played.

I am playing the DOS version, actually. I prefer playing at a pc, and I'm used to the DOS version, because it's what I played as a kid. Also, my Lemmings diskette for Atari ST is seemingly a bit faulty, and I need to take it out and put it back in during loading, as otherwise it will start making scary sounds and not work, for some reason.

Anyway: after watching Nessy's Lemmings videos on YouTube, I got the desire to continue Lemmings again! Today, I had some more tries at Steel Works, and I finally beat it! Honestly, when I missed a builder assignment and when trying to fix it got my worker Lemming stuck in a block of steel, I thought I had lost... but as I still had plenty of skills and Lemmings left, I decided not to restart quite yet, but try to finish the work with the entire crowd. And surprisingly, it worked!
Here's a video where you can see the level after my solution: it's rather messy, I feel like. But it worked!
https://youtu.be/aVA4dHhnxQk

[grams88]

Hi 607

A lot of our atari st floppy disk games are not working anymore, I think it might be half the games I have left, I've got about 12 floppy disk games or something left and a lot of them are simply not working anymore.

Good on you for beating the steel works level, it's a killer one when it comes to the building, it gives you a good feeling of what mayhem is going to be like. I saw that you got a lemming stuck in the wall, I don't think he could be saved. It does look messy but in a way it makes lemmings cool as they are so many different ways of going about it or going about a level. That must be you onto the boiler room level.

[Shrung]

You're very patient to be playing on the DOS version that's part of why I never got through it when I was younger, I was missing out on the ff button, haha. Now that I'm playing through on NeoLemmix, I feel spoiled to be able to skip around so much, but I think the mental puzzle still remains  (on most levels at least, some clearly use the mechanics as the main challenge of the level)

edit: looking at your solution to steel works, I just realized that for some reason I waaay over complicated things on my playthrough last night. For some reason I didn't think to use a blocker to turn the second lemming to build that stairway. I guess it's fun to have found a 1 blocker solution, but man what a crazy blindspot, haha! I guess I just thought since it's mayhem, the hardest thing I can think of must be the solution!

[Proxima]

There's actually a really evil trick on Steel Works, which was probably not intended.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The initial fall is only fatal by one pixel, so you can simply make the first lemming float and immediately build to make it safe.

[607]

There's actually a really evil trick on Steel Works, which was probably not intended.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The initial fall is only fatal by one pixel, so you can simply make the first lemming float and immediately build to make it safe.

Haha, that's interesting! I actually tried that in some other places, but never at the start, as I had already established that what I did there worked, and both times I tried it in another place, it didn't work. So I guess those falls are higher.

[607]

Mayhem 2 The Boiler Room (click to show/hide)

At first I thought "No destructive skills?" and didn't get anywhere except into the flames... but then I realised there were destructive skills. I then solved it right away!
https://youtu.be/fA13FLadeZs
Fun level.

Edit: It's Hero Time! is awesome! I really like that!!
Edit 2: So The Crossroads seemed rather easy and lenient, until I noticed in the way most people would notice (the level ending) that there's a tight time limit on it...
Edit 3: On my second try, though, I got just enough Lemmings in there!
Edit 4: Alright, I can't find a way for Down, Along, Up. In that order. I'll try again later, though! (although I don't know how much later )

[grams88]

Interesting Solution there 607 for the boiler room level. The level tests you to see if you remember the (Call in the bomb squad) level. Well maybe it has a tiny element from that level in it. The levels that follow are quite tricky, (Down Along Up. In that order) When I first came across that one I was like oh no.

Do keep us updated on your progress.

[Proxima]

Interesting Solution there 607 for the boiler room level. The level tests you to see if you remember the (Call in the bomb squad) level.

Except that in the original game, level 1 of each rank is unlocked from the start, so there's no guarantee the player has seen Call in the bomb squad yet -- and indeed I remember that I completed Mayhem up to at least level 10 before getting that far in Taxing.

[grams88]

Good point there Proxima. I think I done the same in that I played the first four or five levels of Mayhem before playing the harder taxing levels as they were further on.

[607]

I have also started playing the Windows version, which is in my opinion quite inferior to the DOS version, but also rather unique, so it's nice to play regardless. And now I'll have to start in Fun again, which means I won't have to think.

[607]

Down, Along, Up is tough indeed! I think I've got the puzzles figured out, though, now to get the execution down...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I wonder why there's the additional climber and floater, though. I've tried using them, but it wasn't really necessary, and made the timing more difficult.

Edit: I think I'm missing something, as the execution seems too hard this way... let me think a little more about it.
Edit 2:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

So close!

Edit 3: I did it!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

As you can see, and I was also trying in the attempt the previous screenshot shows, I reïmplemented my earlier idea of isolating a handful of Lemmings from the rest, for more precision. It was still tricky though, as there's so much to keep in mind, but on my last attempt before giving up for the time being, I did it!
92% saved. ^.^

Nice level!

The next one (One Way or Another, hey, that's the name of that tune; it's a shame it doesn't play in this level in lem-fix3 ) looks fun! Am I right in thinking that this is not a repeat? The lay-out doesn't seem familiar.

[Proxima]

One way or another is a repeat of They just keep on coming (Tricky 9).

Slight spoiler:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Both levels can indeed be solved on either side. I didn't realise this when I was a kid, especially for the Mayhem version.

[607]

I beat One way or another. I tried going around the left first, but I had issues with the one-way arrows, and with getting the crowd out. Going around the right, I didn't have these problems, and it was fairly easy to do.

[607]

This isn't working out so well. (I'm not using spoilers for my own post anymore, as people who haven't yet beaten the game shouldn't be reading this topic. (except myself, of course)

I also tried going underneath, but that seemed hopeless.
Edit: I thought I had it, but then I realised I was relying on luck for the crowd to get through, and I didn't get lucky...

Edit 2: I tried a variation of my strategy, letting the crowd move with the worker Lemming, but at the end had the same issue. However, I did get lucky that time. I've got another possible idea for making it not based on luck, but I'm not going to try it... I'm done anyway. And when I get here in the Windows version, I can simply use directional select.

[grams88]

I used to find that level very hard in the past, I remember playing it on the atari st emulator and thinking to myself oh no not this level.

[grams88]

Is it time for 607 to play lemmings.

[607]

Today I got reminded of Lemmings three times in one evening, and had no plans for the rest of that evening. So yeah, now it's surely time to play Lemmings.
I don't feel confident enough for Mayhem, though, so I'm booting up Windows Lemmings. I'm not sure why me being tired makes me not want to play hard levels... but I'm very far behind on the Windows Lemmings, and it's fun to play something different! (I've beat the mobile Lemmings, and talked about that in a different topic)
I just played "Here's one I prepared earlier" and thought 20% was a very low save requirement on such a level... I improvised a solution that saved 100%. (if I had actually thought about it, there was an easier way of doing it, I realise now )
I was going to attempt this on other levels as well, as it makes it more challenging and more fun, but the mechanics aren't working with me. I can not assign the left Lemming a basher, miner or digger in this position. In the original Lemmings, you can free a blocker like this, right?
Edit: Um, what? It didn't count the level, even though I did save 98%, instead of the required 20%...
Now that I had to redo it anyway, I did get it 100%, by placing the blocker in a more suitable spot.
This is my favourite solution from the levels I played:

That was a lot of fun! I wonder if when I will continue playing this version of the game, I will still feel like doing this. Could anyone tell me whether any levels of Tricky are impossible to complete 100%? (without using glitches)

[Proxima]

Yes, blockers will be released if you remove the terrain they're standing on. In the screenshot position, you could mine further to the left so the crowd go under the blocker, then have a lemming build to turn round so he comes up the terrain directly under the blocker, then use a miner to remove it.

[607]

Yes, blockers will be released if you remove the terrain they're standing on. In the screenshot position, you could mine further to the left so the crowd go under the blocker, then have a lemming build to turn round so he comes up the terrain directly under the blocker, then use a miner to remove it.

That's what I was trying to do, but I couldn't use any skills to Lemmings close to the blocker. I ended up placing the blocker on the ball arc, which meant I could assign a Basher to a Lemming far away from the blocker, so I didn't have this issue.

[ccexplore]

Don't remember if it's any different in Windows Lemmings, but in DOS Lemmings if I recall correctly, if you cover both a blocker and a normal walking lemming within your mouse cursor, preference for skill assignment goes to the blocker.  This is good if you are trying to assign exploder to the blocker, but is terrible for other skills for which you'd want to assign to the non-blocker lemming (though to be fair, only one or two levels in the game actually require you to free a blocker).

Fortunately since the two lemmings are almost never in exactly the same position, if you position your mouse cursor carefully you should be able to only have the non-blocker lemming hit the cursor without also getting the blocker one, then you should be able to assign skill as desired.  For example in your picture I'd try shifting the cursor further left and down.  (Also, the miner's stroke may reach far enough that it could probably still free the blocker starting from slightly farther away.)

Alternatively, in DOS Lemmings you can hold down the right mouse button and then click with the left button to assign in "priority inversion mode".  Roughly speaking this will let you assign skill to the non-prioritized lemming instead, in situations where the cursor covers multiple lemmings and one is prioritized like the blocker.  In certain other ports like the Mac you would hold down some key like Alt to activate this mode instead of holding down right mouse button.  Not sure if this kind of option exists in Windows Lemmings.

[ccexplore]

Actually, further testing shows that while DOS Lemmings prioritizes the blocker, it looks like it will also usually automatically fall back to the non-prioritized lemming for skill assignments that cannot be performed on the prioritized lemming, such as many skills on a blocker.  Maybe Windows Lemmings does not have this fallback behavior so the skill assignment doesn't go to the walker as easily as it would in DOS Lemmings for the situation in your picture.

[607]

Why did you change the title, Simon?

Alternatively, in DOS Lemmings you can hold down the right mouse button and then click with the left button to assign in "priority inversion mode".  Roughly speaking this will let you assign skill to the non-prioritized lemming instead, in situations where the cursor covers multiple lemmings and one is prioritized like the blocker.  In certain other ports like the Mac you would hold down some key like Alt to activate this mode instead of holding down right mouse button.  Not sure if this kind of option exists in Windows Lemmings.

Woah, I didn't know there were any advanced selection options in the original Lemmings!

[Simon]

Why did you change the title, Simon?

You defined what this topic is about:

to share whatever I [= 607] want to share in one, nice, topic
only be used for the original Lemmings and perhaps ONML discussion

Accordingly, the topic title should be precise. Help your readers infer what the topic is not about.

• "607" is more robust than "My". For example, neither the forum's list of recently updated topics nor the IRC bots print the name of original poster. These announcers print only topic title and the name of the last poster.
  
• You plan to post about original Lemmings and perhaps ONML whereas "Lemmings" could mean all games within the trademark.
  
• Every topic contains a discussion. Every topic is a topic. Thus "discussion topic" can be safely cut to declutter.

-- Simon

[607]

You defined what this topic is about:

to share whatever I [= 607] want to share in one, nice, topic
only be used for the original Lemmings and perhaps ONML discussion

Accordingly, the topic title should be precise. Help your readers infer what the topic is not about.

• "607" is more robust than "My". For example, neither the forum's list of recently updated topics nor the IRC bots print the name of original poster. These announcers print only topic title and the name of the last poster.
  
• You plan to post about original Lemmings and perhaps ONML whereas "Lemmings" could mean all games within the trademark.
  
• Every topic contains a discussion. Every topic is a topic. Thus "discussion topic" can be safely cut to declutter.

-- Simon

All of that makes perfect sense, it just feels rather unnecessary. I'm not offended by it or anything, but it feels unusual having my topic suddenly under a different title.

Related to the discussion topic (and not solely to playing as the title now suggests, but I will in fact make a new topic if I start writing more about this): last night I got a lot of ideas for custom levels again, so I might start creating Lemmings levels another time... however, I want to finish the main Lemmings game first, as I feel like I've always started designing levels too early. If I've completed the original game, I should have more experience with level design in general, and I might be able to create challenging levels myself, instead of the tutorial levels my previous attempts have mostly been restricted to.

[607]

Well, this was a very messy solution. This was my second attempt, and as my first didn't work out well from the start I decided to consider a bit about how I should start, and I did what you see at the start of this video. However, I hadn't thought the rest through, and mostly improvised... but it worked!
https://youtu.be/ucigdER5IzQ

[Forestidia86]

Alternatively, in DOS Lemmings you can hold down the right mouse button and then click with the left button to assign in "priority inversion mode".  Roughly speaking this will let you assign skill to the non-prioritized lemming instead, in situations where the cursor covers multiple lemmings and one is prioritized like the blocker.  In certain other ports like the Mac you would hold down some key like Alt to activate this mode instead of holding down right mouse button.  Not sure if this kind of option exists in Windows Lemmings.

The help file of Winlemm says the ctrl button is for assign to walker. Though I can't say if right click has the same effect.
Winlemm has directional select with the arrow keys, too.

[607]

The help file of Winlemm says the ctrl button is for assign to walker. Though I can't say if right click has the same effect.
Winlemm has directional select with the arrow keys, too.

Ah, thanks! I couldn't find a help file, any help button I clicked opened Edge or gave an error.
Yes, directional select is useful. I now realise I could maybe have used that to free that blocker!


It's time for Curse of the Pharaoh... with How Much is that Doggie in the Window, apparently.
I already love how you can kill one Lemming, and get 1 blocker and 20 bombers.
At first this level seemed really easy, but it's not so trivial as it looks. There not being directional select makes things a little more difficult, as it's inadvisable to rely on inside bashers to free the crowd.
Aw... I ran into an issue of getting the crowd up to the final basher tunnel, but it looked like I was going to save it: and then I didn't, as one Lemming got stuck in the terrain. I do notice I've got a digger... maybe I can use that somewhere.
And I did end up using it, for this trick!
I had two bashers left over, though. I wonder if there's a different intended method?

[607]

Hey, Pillars of Hercules! I beat that very recently in Lemmings for mobile phones! It's probably different here, though...
Actually, I can use the same solution... and it's an easy one to execute.

I feel like this isn't the intended solution.

Edit: I'm continuing, even after WAFD.
Oh! I think The Far Side is a new level? Not a repeat? This looks like something I've never seen before! Which isn't too surprising, as the terrain seems tough to work with, even on a 20 of everything...
I did find a good way through it relatively quickly, but had one issue: there's no directional select, and I didn't have too many builders to waste for getting the crowd out. Then I invented a way to have directional select in such situations, in the original game: assign a Lemming a floater or climber, and follow it to see which way it's going! Lemmings with skills assigned have priority, after all.
However... then I realised there was a bigger issue. There's a time limit.
Edit 2: Okay, the floater trick isn't working... however, I got an idea for another trick to use for that part! I can let a Lemming build the first half of the bridge early, when there are still so little Lemmings that I can select the right one. Lemmings will then only move in the right direction on top of that bridge.
Edit 3: This is how I contained the crowd! I wonder if anyone used another way?

And hooray, I beat it! I kept forgetting that my worker Lemming was a climber, so I'd accidentally let him climb up the steel to the exit. However, the time limit was lenient enough to let the crowd finish the building.
Edit 4: I guess I'm not stopping yet, as I had quite some time today after an exam, and was too tired to study... (plus I've studied enough already the past days) and Lemmings seemed like a fun way to relax!
The next level, The Great Lemming Caper, also doesn't seem familiar (is it a non-repeat as well?), and it's another 100% save rating level!
This seemed like a very difficult level, and then I realised: there are only two Lemmings! Now that's interesting!
Now, I thought I was stumped here, as there are only 2 builders, which are both clearly needed to build, so there's no way to turn a Lemming around. Then I remembered hearing about this trick...

But I'm almost certain that it can't be intended to use it, as it's a counterintuitive trick... But how else would it be possible to solve this level? I'm considering looking it up, but I feel like one of you might be able to give me a hint. For now: I've beaten the level!
Edit 5: Pea Soup is an easy level at this point, but the terrain is very creative!
And now I'm finally quitting. I've got to make dinner soon, and I don't know how long the next level might take.

[Proxima]

For the majority of original levels, we don't know whether the designers ever had a specific "intended solution" in mind, and they certainly weren't all that concerned about preventing alternatives, given the abundance of extra skills and different possible approaches.

Pillars of Hercules can be solved by the left or right route, or by going through the terrain at the top.

The Far Side is indeed not a repeat. I always contained the crowd by one of the methods you mentioned, building only half of the bridge out of the starting area, then leaving them there until near the end.

The Great Lemming Caper is a repeat of Nightmare on Lem Street. You probably forgot this because the Fun version is one of the quickest and most forgettable levels: just build over both gaps and you're done.

Indeed, it has several different solutions without using glitches. Nessy even made a compilation video showing off a number of them. Your solution can actually be made glitch-free with a very small change, given that you have a large number of destructive skills.

However, there's one particular solution that's extremely elegant, so that I've always thought it was probably what the designer intended. If you want a hint towards finding this solution... it's not so very different, but the second builder should be in a different place.

[607]

However, there's one particular solution that's extremely elegant, so that I've always thought it was probably what the designer intended. If you want a hint towards finding this solution... it's not so very different, but the second builder should be in a different place.

Ah, right, of course! Yes, that's very nice.

[grams88]

It's a nice solution. There are a few different ways to solve that level. That's actually a really good level as I feel it has a puzzle element attached to it.

With the (Curse of the Pharaoh) level I sometimes use some of the builders in the middle of the level before bashing the pyramid I build back over so that it gives the lemmings a massive walk before they get back to the pyramid so that there are not loads of lemmings when it comes to building to the exit as you could end up building the wrong way otherwise.  Actually thinking about it that might be more of a unique solution well maybe not.

Go for it 607, you are doing good.

[607]

It's a nice solution. There are a few different ways to solve that level. That's actually a really good level as I feel it has a puzzle element attached to it.

With the (Curse of the Pharaoh) level I sometimes use some of the builders in the middle of the level before bashing the pyramid I build back over so that it gives the lemmings a massive walk before they get back to the pyramid so that there are not loads of lemmings when it comes to building to the exit as you could end up building the wrong way otherwise.  Actually thinking about it that might be more of a unique solution well maybe not.

Go for it 607, you are doing good.

I was waiting for your response!

Also: I learnt today that I don't actually know what solution you mean... as climbers can't climb through bridges/stairs, and there would be a lot of precision required to let the climber first climb past the unfinished bridge and then land on top of it.

[Proxima]

and there would be a lot of precision required to let the climber first climb past the unfinished bridge and then land on top of it.

That's exactly it. Not really all that much precision, since you only need to adjust the timing of one skill, and there's a fairly lenient window.

[607]

On November 1st I beat a lot of Tricky levels again in Lemmings 95. I then explored the file structure, and did some fun hacks.

Now I'll try another Mayhem level in the original Lemmings.
Mayhem 15, The Fast Food Kitchen, was absurdly easy. Even knowing that the Fire style levels are the easiest in the game, I was very surprised by this particular level. Oh well!

I'm now on Just a Minute, and now that I know (very late, as I did IL battles without this knowledge) that you can save seconds by pausing at the start, I'd like to do that every time. It didn't matter, anyway, as I had 4 seconds spare. (if it was really a game of seconds, I also should have played on the other graphics mode )

Stepping Stones is very precise, but easy to figure out.

And where the Fire levels are the easiest, the Dirt levels are the most intimidating. And then there were four... is certainly very much so!
However, to my surprise, I did do quite well on my first try, saving 87%, with the requirement being 90%! I could have saved that extra few by assigning a blocker to a Lemming in the fourth quadrant, to keep the builder-Lemming-to-be separate from the rest. And I could have done less multi-tasking, as I actually had 4 minutes left at the end. But the multi-tasking does make it more fun!

[Forestidia86]

Just out of curiosity: Are your assignments as well a frame delayed in Winlemm 95?
In my Winlemm playthrough I encountered that the game performs assignments one frame delayed, which made some maps harder. And I'm interested if others encounter that as well.

[607]

Just out of curiosity: Are your assignments as well a frame delayed in Winlemm 95?
In my Winlemm playthrough I encountered that the game performs assignments one frame delayed, which made some maps harder. And I'm interested if others encounter that as well.

I have not noticed that. If you assign a skill while the game is paused, it will only happen one frame later, but I have not noticed this during unpaused gameplay. That doesn't mean it doesn't happen, though, as I haven't paid close attention.

[grams88]

Hi 607


How are you getting on with the lemmings levels.  That's actually not a bad attempt for a first attempt at the (And then there were four) level. 87% you rescued.

[607]

Heh, it's been a while! We'll see, it might be a week, it might be a year ere I continue.
Edit: These messages do help me remember the possibility, though!
Edit 2: I played some Lemmings 95... I'm getting to the end of Tricky, and it actually is tricky! I honestly hadn't expected that, already having beaten so much of Mayhem in the DOS version!

[607]

I beat And then there were four...! I had a plan for saving all 100 Lemmings, but then I accidentally fell back onto an earlier plan, which made me lose one Lemming by forgetting about it and one by necessity. Still, quite enough! Reading my first post about it, it seems like maybe I didn't realise that you could use the 2 climbers to separate the worker Lemming from the crowd in the bottom two quadrants?

[607]

I knew it had been a while since I had last played, but I was surprised to see that it has been over two and a half years!
At this rate, I'm not sure if I'll ever finish the game.
But I'm finally continuing, this evening!
Time to get up! was a relaxing level. It wasn't hard to find a strategy for it (although for me it wasn't trivial, either), but it took a while to execute because of the building, and I found the bombers at the end to be frustrating. After a few failed attempts I got the idea to use left over builders to delay the exploders if necessary. That worked!
No added colours or Lemmings was quite cool! I do think that's a level that I've heard mentioned in 'best of' lists. I considered about five strategies, I think, before finding a winning one, and I think that's quite cool. My solution also was quite satisfying, it does not feel like a backroute!
I also took a good look at With a twist of lemmings please, but so far I haven't been able to figure it out! I would like to say that I don't understand the level order here. Why does a marble tileset, 50 Lemmings, 100%, 5 minutes, reused level layout, follow a marble tileset, 50 Lemmings, 100%, 5 minutes, reused level layout?

[WillLem]

At this rate, I'm not sure if I'll ever finish the game.

Don't give up! You're almost there

I would like to say that I don't understand the level order here. Why does a marble tileset, 50 Lemmings, 100%, 5 minutes, reused level layout, follow a marble tileset, 50 Lemmings, 100%, 5 minutes, reused level layout?

It's either a coincidence, or maybe the designer who made the hardest levels just favoured the marble tileset, and these happen to be grouped together in Mayhem because they're hard. Now that you've mentioned this, I have a feeling that all of the difficult marble levels were made by the same designer. Further study of those levels may reveal stylistic consistencies...

Interesting spot!

Yup. The Amiga version is the original, so the DOS version relaxed the requirements on several levels.

Hmm! I didn't realise this. Another reason to think of the Amiga version as definitive, perhaps?

[607]

It's either a coincidence, or maybe the designer who made the hardest levels just favoured the marble tileset, and these happen to be grouped together in Mayhem because they're hard. Now that you've mentioned this, I have a feeling that all of the difficult marble levels were made by the same designer. Further study of those levels may reveal stylistic consistencies...

Plausible!

Hmm! I didn't realise this. Another reason to think of the Amiga version as definitive, perhaps?

Or a reason to think of the DOS version as definitive. Although it doesn't have the 2 player mode or the intro.

[WillLem]

Hmm! I didn't realise this. Another reason to think of the Amiga version as definitive, perhaps?

Or a reason to think of the DOS version as definitive. Although it doesn't have the 2 player mode or the intro.

Why, if it deviates from the original? The blue background of the Amiga version makes everything look warmer and gives the game a better atmosphere that the DOS version as well as all of the other things that make it generally better.

The Amiga version will always be the one I think of as definitive, anyway. All other contemporary ports seem to be in some way watered down, missing levels, or - as you've mentioned - missing the 2-player mode. Even the Mac version, which has better graphics and a fast-forward button, messes up some of the levels so that they become prohibitively difficult.

[The Tomato Watcher]

The Amiga version will always be the one I think of as definitive, anyway. All other contemporary ports seem to be in some way watered down, missing levels, or - as you've mentioned - missing the 2-player mode. Even the Mac version, which has better graphics and a fast-forward button, messes up some of the levels so that they become prohibitively difficult.

Japan got the Sharp X68000 version though, which is basically a facsimile of the Amiga version, 2-player mode, intro, blue background and all, but with fast-forward (though it's activated by pressing SHIFT+2 which is absurd), both DOS and Amiga keyboard controls, FM synth music (that's nowhere near as abrasive as the DOS version's AdLib soundtrack can be!), and a fun little credits sequence.

I don't know if that's outside the realm of this discussion or not, but I had to bring it up.

[Dullstar]

Why, if it deviates from the original?

Was just reading through this and saw this, and thought it worth mentioning:

There's multiple reasons they could have lowered the requirements. One such possible reason is that they may have thought some of the save requirements were too harsh, so in theory these could be considered balancing changes in the era before patches were really a thing. Or it could just be a quirk of the fact that some of the lemming counts are different because of the 100 vs. 80 lemming cap and they may not have necessarily adjusted them all evenly.

Of course with some of the downgrades from the Amiga perhaps one could argue that there is no real definitive edition.

[WillLem]

Japan got the Sharp X68000 version though

Hmm. This does sound better! Investigating...

perhaps one could argue that there is no real definitive edition.

Oh, there isn't, for sure. Or rather - because there are so many editions, everyone will tend to think of the one that they grew up with as definitive. That's certainly the view in my case*, but I also have the fact that the game was written on and first released on the Amiga to add a bit of chunk to it; both arbitrary things when considering the way the game developed across the various ports, but still key pieces of info which may or may not factor into someone's view of what is "definitive."

*EDIT - I also just happen to think that the Amiga interface is generally more aesthetically pleasing than some of the other ones. The DOS colour scheme is a bit weak in comparison, for example. None of them are perfect, though.