Author Topic: 100% challenge: Which levels can still be solved in one minute?  (Read 4318 times)

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Offline Minim

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As I mentioned before, it's hard to think of new challenges and easier to expand on others' ideas.
Not sure how much difference this is going to make, but here's the challenge. By adding the 100% requirement, how many levels can still be solved in under one minute?

Some levels do require 100%. We can leave those out while we solve each non-100% level. The box below shows the list of levels where 100% is impossible.

Quote from: List of levels where 100% is impossible
If a level is not on this list, it's possible to achieve 100% on, and thus 100% is the requirement for a solution to qualify in this challenge. If it's on the list, the required % is listed.

Orig              OhNo             Holiday
Fun 3: 47/50      Crazy 3: 48/50   Flurry 16: 49/50
Fun 6: 48/50      Crazy 10: 79/80  Blitz 12: 79/80
Fun 18: 65/70     Crazy 11: 40/80  Blitz 15: 10/15
Tricky 15: 7/10   Crazy 14: 48/50  Blitz 16: 48/50
Tricky 16: 46/50  Wild 5: 77/80    Frost 6: 69/70
Tricky 17: 48/50  Wild 13: 77/80   Frost 14: 45/50
Tricky 18: 9/10   Wild 15: 48/50   Hail 2: 76/80
Tricky 23: 79/80  Wild 18: 78/80   Hail 6: 46/80
Taxing 7: 79/80   Wicked 1: 59/60
Taxing 19: 65/70  Wicked 4: 49/50
Taxing 27: 77/80  Wicked 7: 76/80
Taxing 28: 70/80  Wicked 8: 46/50
Mayhem 5: 76/80   Wicked 10: 49/50
Mayhem 10: 73/75  Wicked 12: 79/80
Mayhem 19: 47/50  Wicked 15: 48/50
Mayhem 26: 76/80  Wicked 16: 5/6
Mayhem 29: 78/80  Havoc 10: 17/21
                  Havoc 20: 53/60
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline ccexplore

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Re: 100% challenge: Which levels can still be solved in one minute?
« Reply #1 on: March 27, 2014, 11:08:10 PM »
Here's the list of levels where 1 minute is impossible (or at least no one has found such a solution), to complement above list.

Quote from: List of levels where no 1-minute solutions have ever been found
ORIG          OHNO         HOLIDAY
Fun 14        Crazy 4      Frost 1
Fun 15        Crazy 6-10   Frost 6
Fun 19        Crazy 14     Frost 7
Fun 21        Crazy 17     Frost 10
Fun 22        Crazy 18     Frost 11
Fun 23        Wild 2       Frost 12
Fun 28        Wild 4       Hail 1
Tricky 4      Wild 10      Hail 3
Tricky 8      Wild 13-16   Hail 7-14
Tricky 14     Wicked 2     Flurry 6
Tricky 29     Wicked 9-12  Flurry 7
Tricky 30     Wicked 15    Flurry 8
Taxing 1      Havoc 1-5    Flurry 10
Taxing 7      Havoc 8      Flurry 13
Taxing 8      Havoc 9      Blitz 1-5
Taxing 11-15  Havoc 11     Blitz 9
Taxing 17     Havoc 13     Blitz 11
Taxing 20     Havoc 20     Blitz 12
Taxing 23                  Blitz 13
Taxing 25                  Blitz 15
Taxing 28
Mayhem 1
Mayhem 5
Mayhem 6
Mayhem 9
Mayhem 17
Mayhem 19
Mayhem 21-23
Mayhem 26
Mayhem 28-30

If I have the time or interest maybe I will browse through the existing solutions to get a better picture of what levels may be interesting to look at, but right now I'm not optimistic that we will find anything new with this challenge.  I recall many of the nontrivial 1-minute solutions making use of sliding glitch or nuke glitch, both of which tends to leave lemmings unsaved or killed.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: 100% challenge: Which levels can still be solved in one minute?
« Reply #2 on: March 28, 2014, 01:18:28 AM »
I started looking into this in more detail.  This may turn out to be more interesting than my initial gut assessment, although it is still unclear in how many cases an actual new solution will exist from this challenge.

Basically I underestimated that in a lot of the 1-minute solutions to easy levels, they may be trivial to merely meet the minimum save requirement, but much more time constrained when everyone has to make it in, therefore requiring additional nontrivial techniques in this challenge.  I have attached an example mentioned later in this post.

For rating Fun, I have basically now confirmed that other than the following two levels whose fate are still to be determined, the rest of Fun are either confirmed possible for the challenge, or "trivially likely impossible" (ie. no known solutions found even in the existing challenges relaxing either of the two requirements).  The two levels left are:

Fun 16, Fun 29

I have attached replay to Fun 7 which illustrates the kind of cases where this challenge gets more interesting (and also often more grindy, unfortunately).  That level is uninteresting for 1-minute alone or 100% alone, but with both together, you have to apply some extra techniques to help ensure everyone makes it in time to the exit.  It is really the only level in Fun thus far whose solution for this challenge illustrates anything new for the level.  In all other cases either the trivial solution will work, or the solution is more or less something you have already seen in other challenges already for that level.

For Fun 16, the situation is this:  we know that its repeat, Taxing 3, is possible for 1 minute and already requires 100%.  However the solution presented in the 1-minute challenge thread (from yours truly) uses more than 20 builders (Taxing 3 has 30 of everything except blockers, while Fun 16 only has 20 of each), so the solution can't be applied as-is to Fun 16.  And given that the massive use of builders is fairly crucial to getting the path set up quickly enough, it might well be that there is no way to get it working with only 20 builders.  So right now we just don't know yet whether it is possible or not.

As for Fun 29, for 1-minute Clam presented a spectacular solution using the sliding glitch, which additionally uses bombers as well for setting up the sliding.  All that makes it almost certainly impossible to adapt for a 100% solution.  It remains to be seen whether it is actually possible to solve in 1 minute more conventionally, but I would guess "no" if the only known solution at this point is a Clam solution with sliding. ;p


Bonus:  Tricky 1--at first I thought it might be eliminated by showing the simply the walking alone would be too much.  So I modified the level: fill in the gap, remove the obstacle, and sort of flatten out any bumps that would've cause a walker lemming to transition to jumper or faller.  But as it turns out, with those changes the lemmings can actually make it in time with around 1 game second to spare--if the pause glitch is used.  But, in an actual solution the gap has to be built over and the obstacle bashed through, and especially with the builder we know it takes something like 10 frames just for the build brick to actually materialize in the level, so with 1 game second equal to 17 frames, most likely there still won't be enough time even if you use all the time-extending glitches at hand (eg. the fade out in high-performance mode in real DOSBox Lemmings).  Mind you I haven't carried out any actual measurements and calculations yet so I'm not 100% certain, but otherwise I'm leaning towards "not possible" for now..

Mariachi Skeletron Prime

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Re: 100% challenge: Which levels can still be solved in one minute?
« Reply #3 on: November 02, 2014, 09:43:23 PM »
Wait.
Tame 15 is possible in one minute?

Offline Proxima

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Re: 100% challenge: Which levels can still be solved in one minute?
« Reply #4 on: November 02, 2014, 09:53:15 PM »
Please don't quote a large post just to add a short reply (I've removed the quoted post from yours).

Tame 15 uses the pause trick, which is specific to DOS and gives you an extra two seconds. Clam posted about this level here, with a replay. All these challenge topics refer to the DOS version as standard unless otherwise stated, since it's the version more forum members are familiar with and (via Lemmix) the easiest to share replays for.