Author Topic: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.  (Read 29890 times)

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Offline Proxima

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2013, 02:05:22 AM »
Do we usually count that one (the steel thing) as a glitch?

Yes -- destroying steel terrain is a glitch if it's essential to the solution (it's okay if it happens incidentally as a result of skill placement but you don't require it, i.e. the solution would work equally well with Cheapo or Lix steel mechanics).

As for other results that should be tagged -- Mayhem 1 (15) requires sliding, and I'm not sure how Crazy 10 (7) is done?

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2013, 09:00:36 AM »
Wild 18 improved to 4.  Pretty straightforward, actually.

Also, I've got 3 right now for Wild 12.  I don't know whether 2 is possible or not because I'm not sure how many blockers and bashers the 2-builder solution from the WSCYLW thread uses.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2013, 12:21:15 PM »
Ah, so it is possible to interrupt the basher without using up a builder  ;P  For some reason, I was trying to find a way to do that but just couldn't think of anything; then after you confirmed it was possible, it came to me almost at once. Here's a replay.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »
Here are some more glitch-free results, but I'm sure the glitch experts can improve on 14 and 18 at least...

Mayhem 14: 16
Mayhem 15: 4
Mayhem 16: 1
Mayhem 18: 13 12
Mayhem 19: 8
Mayhem 20: 2
Mayhem 21: 21
Mayhem 22: 6 (another nice challenge)
Mayhem 24: 3
Mayhem 25: 5
Mayhem 26: 7
Mayhem 27: 2
Mayhem 28: 13 (very close at one point, so I wouldn't rule out 12)
Mayhem 29: 12

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2013, 01:35:16 PM »
As for other results that should be tagged -- Tricky 9 (3) must use steel glitches, otherwise it takes 4 builders just to cross the gaps.

Um, no:

Also Tricky 9 improved to 3 with a glitch-free solution (which barely works, with a barely survivable fall for the crowd and lucky alignment with the level terrain to still allow the crowd be turned by that blocker).  Replay also attached.  I don't think glitching through the steel would yield any further improvement on this level, but feel free to prove me wrong.

All results I've reported so far I've reported with correct glitch tagging.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2013, 01:51:27 PM »
Wild 4: My best is 7, might be improvable with sliding.

I believe Clam's 6-builder solution from WSCYLW is based on digging away the right edge of the column of steel immediately before the exit platform.  I'm pretty sure it uses less than 6 bashers and should qualify for this challenge, but due to lost replays I guess I (or someone) will have to (re)confirm the solution...

Wild 6: 2 per skill. 1 per skill is possible to save 98% (with the last lemming dying, not being bombed), but the level requires 100%.

1 is possible at 100%.  I think this is from my (or someone's) 3-skill solution from the min-skills challenge, which no doubt has lost the replay attachement at this point, so re-attached here.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2013, 07:32:28 PM »
My apologies.

Meanwhile, the interrupted basher trick from Wild 12 works on Mayhem 18 too, so that's down to 12, still glitch-free. I've tried to save another builder by handling the left side differently, but it seems the chute is a single pixel too wide to allow this.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2013, 02:53:31 AM »
Mayhem 19 can be done with 7, glitch free, from the WSCYLW thread.  I don't feel like duplicating it right now because of the amount of precise bomber timing involved.

Mayhem 23 can be done with 7, glitch free (another nice challenge).  I suspect that the number can be reduced to the 4-5 range via sliding.

Mayhem 28 can be done with 5, using the ceiling route (steel glitches).

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2013, 12:22:49 PM »
Mayhem 23 can be done with 7, glitch free (another nice challenge).  I suspect that the number can be reduced to the 4-5 range via sliding.

Indeed.  Pooty's solution from the WSCYLW thread qualifies for this challenge for "4 (glitch)".  Lost replay in that post reattached here.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2013, 03:33:24 PM »
I've added to the first post all Mayhem levels for which results are the same as WSCYLW -- these are impossible to improve, even with glitches, unless a new solution is found. I also added Mayhem 29, for which WSCYLW has 10 builders, and the level does not give more than 10 of any other skill. Clam's replay uses a glitch (digging on steel to release a blocker). I think this can be replaced with a builder for a glitch-free 11; the timing is tricky and I haven't pulled it off yet, but I've gotten close enough to feel sure it can be done.

This means the only Mayhem levels currently without a definite result are 14, 18, 26 and 30.

EDIT: Clam's Mayhem 30 8-builder replay uses 9 each of bashers and miners. Since it also uses 8 bombers and all the diggers, I think it's fair to guess that 8 of each is impossible. The replay uses the miner positioning glitch, for a left-side lemming to mine down while leaving the exit trigger touchable without a builder. For this challenge we have a builder spare, so the result is 9 (glitch-free).

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2013, 12:35:52 AM »
First half of Wicked:

1: 1 (glitch)
2: 5
3: 3 (glitch)
4: 4
5: 1
6: 2
7: 4
8: 4
9: 9
10: 7, from the WSCYLW thread, which I'm assuming uses a glitch

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2013, 01:55:34 AM »
10: 7, from the WSCYLW thread, which I'm assuming uses a glitch

Yes, that solution of mine uses steel canceling and blocker pushing lemming into wall.

Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2013, 06:53:10 AM »
Tried to reduce that annoyingly high number on Mayhem 21. I came very close, but missed a couple of lemmings. T.T (And had my solution worked, it would've saved a whole ONE floater anyway... xD)

To anyone else trying, the major trick was (I don't know, maybe the existing solution already uses this, I didn't check it) - if you make a lemming bash exactly three steps after landing, you can have another lemming walk to the edge of the bash tunnel, turn around, and build immediately after turning (while still on that one pixel of extra height) - if you positioned the basher right, lemmings falling onto the bridge being built will survive the fall (you will need two more floaters after you start building - one lemming will land on the bridge, but one pixel too low to survive it, whereas another brick will be placed and thus make it survivable before the next one comes). I would assume a similar setup is possible coming from the left rather than the right, though I don't see it being particularly useful (unless you can somehow afford another builder to stop the basher). Here's a replay illustrating what I mean, since it's somewhat hard to describe.

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2013, 07:32:23 AM »
It was Clam's solution on the WSCYLW challenge that first found and used the trick, and I'm pretty sure he's looked into the variations and have made the number of floaters as low as possible for that challenge (and therefore this one).  But hey, feel free to try, if you succeed it will work for both challenges.

Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2013, 10:43:29 AM »
No, that trick's the only thing I've got. The only conceivable way to win from that point is to send a climber up, and dig down one side of the thin piece. The left is obviously a bad idea - you need heaps of floaters if you want to have enough time for that one (unless some REALLY good grouping can be done somehow with the release rate?), and the right requires you to do it at 19 floaters, meaning you need 21 altogether - I'm guessing that's probably what he did. The best I acheived with any lower amount of floaters was 78% with 19 floaters total.

If you try building out of the starting place, you only need 5 floaters, but even if you climb and dig until you're low enough to make the thin part only one pixel thick, you can't build high enough with 3 builders, and no matter what you do you'll need at least one - not to mention that there's not much you can do at this point. A direct drop requires two builders, leaving only two to both create a landing space and get the crowd to the direct drop. Not possible.

The ONLY thing I can think of that I haven't tried that might work, is coming up with some builder setup in the gap to make the basher go through all the way, but since you'd need one to get to the exit and at least one to create a landing space (without worrying about how you're going to turn your climber around, since that's the only possible place for a landing on this one - use an earlier floater to do the bashing), I have no idea how you'd set that up with only two builders and only one lemming available to set it up. If you could somehow get a second lemming over there, without a continous crowd incoming, it could be done...

I tried a few setups with two lemmings at the top (not that one though, there wouldn't be enough builders since you need two at the start), by sliding one up and making the other a climber. The builder used to initiate the slide also was high enough that, if built after turning around, it provided a safe landing place, so one of them wasn't a waste at least. I couldn't really go anywhere with it though, not enough builders.

If you could somehow group together the lemmings well enough, could you possibly slide twice with 3 builders and without the digger? I doubt it, but if you could, you could slide one up while building the landing, make him dig at the edge then build across the gap, so that neither fall is fatal, then you just slide the rest of the lemmings up. The one that's trapped, that's what the climber's for. I have no idea how such a setup could possibly be made though.
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