Author Topic: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.  (Read 29884 times)

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Offline namida

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Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« on: October 24, 2013, 03:05:56 AM »
Okay well, here's an (I think) new idea for a challenge. The idea is - it doesn't matter how many different skills, or total skills you use - the aim is to have the lowest uses of any single skill. For example, solving a level with 2 builders and 2 miners is better than solving it with 3 bashers, because you've only used any one skill a maximum of twice. Or as Simon explained it: "For each level, find the smallest N such that a solution exists with the original skillset, with no skill used more than N times."

I already did up to Fun 20 - only Fun 14 and Fun 20 were really interesting so far.


Last updated 10 May 2020 at 12:05 PM forum time. Bolded levels are not yet solved.

Fun 1: 1
Fun 2: 1
Fun 3: 3
Fun 4: 10
Fun 5: 3
Fun 6: 1 (glitch)
Fun 7: 2
Fun 8: 1
Fun 9: 1
Fun 10: 1
Fun 11: 1
Fun 12: 1
Fun 13: 3
Fun 14: 2
Fun 15: 4 (glitch)
Fun 16: 5 (glitch)
Fun 17: 1
Fun 18: 5
Fun 19: 3
Fun 20: 2
Fun 21: 1
Fun 22: 2
Fun 23: 2
Fun 24: 1
Fun 25: 1
Fun 26: 2
Fun 27: 1
Fun 28: 5
Fun 29: 3
Fun 30: 1
Tricky 1: 1
Tricky 2: 5
Tricky 3: 2
Tricky 4: 5
Tricky 5: 3
Tricky 6: 2
Tricky 7: 7
Tricky 8: 8 (glitch)
Tricky 9: 3
Tricky 10: 4
Tricky 11: 2
Tricky 12: 2
Tricky 13: 3 (glitch)
Tricky 14: 6 (glitch)
Tricky 15: 3
Tricky 16: 4
Tricky 17: 2
Tricky 18: 1
Tricky 19: 1
Tricky 20: 1
Tricky 21: 3
Tricky 22: 1
Tricky 23: 1
Tricky 24: 2
Tricky 25: 7
Tricky 26: 1
Tricky 27: 2
Tricky 28: 1 (glitch)
Tricky 29: 2
Tricky 30: 3
Taxing 1: 6
Taxing 2: 2
Taxing 3: 6
<strong>Taxing 4: </strong>
Taxing 5: 5
Taxing 6: 1
Taxing 7: 5 (glitch)
Taxing 8: 5
Taxing 9: 1
Taxing 10: 4
Taxing 11: 7
Taxing 12: 6
Taxing 13: 2
Taxing 14: 17
Taxing 15: 3
Taxing 16: 7
Taxing 17: 2
Taxing 18: 1 (glitch)
Taxing 19: 5
Taxing 20: 2
Taxing 21: 2 (glitch)
Taxing 22: 1
Taxing 23: 12
Taxing 24: 5
Taxing 25: 3
Taxing 26: 6
Taxing 27: 6
Taxing 28: 3
Taxing 29: 2
Taxing 30: 7
Mayhem 1: 15 (glitch)
Mayhem 2: 6 (glitch)
Mayhem 3: 1
Mayhem 4: 2
Mayhem 5: 5
Mayhem 6: 6
Mayhem 7: 4
Mayhem 8: 3
Mayhem 9: 5
Mayhem 10: 5
Mayhem 11: 9
Mayhem 12: 3 (glitch)
Mayhem 13: 2
<strong>Mayhem 14: </strong>
Mayhem 15: 4
Mayhem 16: 1
Mayhem 17: 2 (glitch)
Mayhem 18: 6 (glitch)
Mayhem 19: 7
Mayhem 20: 2
Mayhem 21: 21
Mayhem 22: 6
Mayhem 23: 4 (glitch)
Mayhem 24: 3
Mayhem 25: 4 (glitch)
Mayhem 26: 6
Mayhem 27: 2
Mayhem 28: 5 (glitch)
Mayhem 29: 10 (glitch)
Mayhem 30: 9
 
Tame 1: 1
Tame 2: 1
Tame 3: 1
Tame 4: 1
Tame 5: 1
Tame 6: 1
Tame 7: 1
Tame 8: 1
Tame 9: 1
Tame 10: 1
Tame 11: 1
Tame 12: 1
Tame 13: 2 (glitch)
Tame 14: 1
Tame 15: 1
Tame 16: 1
Tame 17: 1
Tame 18: 1
Tame 19: 1
Tame 20: 1
Crazy 1: 1
Crazy 2: 3
Crazy 3: 2
Crazy 4: 4
Crazy 5: 7
Crazy 6: 5
Crazy 7: 3
Crazy 8: 3 (glitch)
Crazy 9: 2
Crazy 10: 7
Crazy 11: 1
Crazy 12: 2
Crazy 13: 2
Crazy 14: 4
Crazy 15: 2 (glitch)
Crazy 16: 2
Crazy 17: 3
Crazy 18: 2
Crazy 19: 1
Crazy 20: 6
Wild 1: 2
Wild 2: 5
Wild 3: 6
Wild 4: 7
Wild 5: 4
Wild 6: 2
Wild 7: 3
Wild 8: 10
Wild 9: 0 (glitch)
Wild 10: 3
Wild 11: 2 (glitch)
<strong>Wild 12:</strong>
Wild 13: 2
Wild 14: 2
Wild 15: 2
Wild 16: 4
Wild 17: 2
Wild 18: 4
Wild 19: 7 (glitch)
Wild 20: 2
Wicked 1: 1 (glitch)
Wicked 2: 5
Wicked 3: 3 (glitch)
Wicked 4: 4
Wicked 5: 1
Wicked 6: 2
Wicked 7: 4
Wicked 8: 4
Wicked 9: 9
Wicked 10: 7 (glitch)
Wicked 11: 3
Wicked 12: 6
Wicked 13: 7 (glitch)
Wicked 14: 1 (glitch)
Wicked 15: 6 (glitch)
Wicked 16: 1
Wicked 17: 4
Wicked 18: 3
Wicked 19: 5
Wicked 20: 1 (glitch)
Havoc 1: 5
Havoc 2: 9
Havoc 3: 2
Havoc 4: 1
Havoc 5: 2
Havoc 6: 2 (glitch)
Havoc 7: 6
Havoc 8: 4
Havoc 9: 13
Havoc 10: 1
Havoc 11: 8 (glitch)
Havoc 12: 9
Havoc 13: 2 (glitch)
Havoc 14: 4
Havoc 15: 5 (glitch)
Havoc 16: 3
Havoc 17: 2 (glitch)
Havoc 18: 8
Havoc 19: 3
Havoc 20: 7
« Last Edit: May 10, 2020, 12:05:52 PM by Minim »
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Offline Minim

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2013, 09:04:31 AM »
So that means you still have to use the original skill set? OK then.

This challenge may be interesting at first glance, but unfortunately most of the results are probably going to be similar to that of the 'skills you can't live without thread'. I'd still give it a shot though as I have free time. :)
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Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2013, 09:16:51 AM »
Yep. You're limited to the original skillset.

The big difference between this and the Can't Live Without is that in this, you're trying to minimize all skills at once. In the can't live without, you could play through once and use no climbers but 99 of everything else, then again using no floaters but 99 of everything else, and in the end come up with something like only one builder that was common to *all* the solutions.

This one, on the other hand, you're trying to come up with one solution that, as much as possible, avoids using the same skills repeatedly.

In that one, if the current record was 2 Climbers, 3 Builders, and you could solve the level with only 2 builders by using a 3rd climber, you'd have improved the result because you still used less builders. In this one, you'd still be using one skill three times (even if you're changing which skill it is), so a 3 climber 2 builder solution would be no better (but, of course, no worse) than a 2 climber 3 builder one.

If you look at the can't live without, for example, Fun 20 is listed as 1 builder. However, in this topic, the minimum is two - you may be able to beat it with only one (or even none) of any *specific* skill; but for an entire skillset for the level, there will have to be at least one skill that you have at least two of - in the case of Fun 20, I actually used two of *every* skill to acheive that result, except floaters.

Hopefully I'm making it clear what I mean? This is somewhat a hard concept for me to put into words...
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Offline Simon

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #3 on: October 24, 2013, 12:19:35 PM »
This is somewhat a hard concept for me to put into words...

For each level, find the smallest N such that a solution exists with the original skillset, with no skill used more than N times.

Rotating hamsters have to be added to this post to make it seem non-wisecracky.


Also, results:
Tricky 1: 1
Tricky 2: 5 (from the min-total-skill topic)
Tricky 3: 2

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Offline geoo

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #4 on: October 24, 2013, 07:17:47 PM »
That's a very nice idea, forcing to use the skills in a balanced way.

Some improvements:

Fun 16: 5 (glitch)
Fun 19: 3

And this is a really interesting one:
Tricky 6: 2

Offline mobius

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #5 on: October 24, 2013, 11:56:05 PM »
not a very interesting result for Tricky 7, but I want to make sure I have the idea correct.

7 builders appears at first glance to be the maximum here. and 2 of the other skills+ 1 bomber (unless one can glitch through the ceiling which I am about to test...) don't think so, takes 6 builders just to get to the right pillar
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Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #6 on: October 25, 2013, 03:47:10 AM »
Done Tricky up to 25. Levels of note were 11, 12 and 25.

11 and 12 were both very nice challenges. Give them a try - both of them can be done with no more than 2 of each skill.

25 the initial conclusion would be 10, but if you slightly modify the 100% solution, you can sacrifice a few lemmings and in turn save a couple of builders, and you already don't use most of your floaters on this path.

EDIT: Then I tried allowing even more sacrifice, and eventually came up with a solution using only 7 builders (previously I was using 8) - and despite being based off the 100% solution, guess how much it saves.... exactly the required 12%.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #7 on: October 25, 2013, 11:05:01 AM »
A bit busy nowadays, but will try to eke out some improvements every now and then...... :( :-\

For example, Fun 29 down to 3.  Not particularly challenge-worthy but is at least glitch-free. :-\ More interesting is whether 2 may be possible with sliding.

One more Fun level thus far has caught my attention but needs more time to work through, and (if my plan actually works out...) it would be a glitch solution.

[edit: Tricky 8 down to 8 (glitch) courtesy of Clam's solution from the "skills you can't live without" challenge, which I've checked to use 6 blockers and 8 builders.  Though you made the same mistake as people did initially on that challenge too--the most straightforward solution, making use of blockers, would've yield 9 not 10.]

Online Proxima

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #8 on: October 25, 2013, 05:37:09 PM »
Tricky 26: 1

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2013, 11:59:57 AM »
One more Fun level thus far has caught my attention but needs more time to work through, and (if my plan actually works out...) it would be a glitch solution.

And confirmed!  Fun 6 solved using 1 bomber and 1 blocker, replay attached.  Obviously a glitch solution with the use of the blocker, but the actual key part of the solution making it possible to bunch up the required 10 lemmings is glitch-free.  To see that in action, I suggest fast-forward to around the time of explosion at timer 3:44 (the stuff before is just RR tweaking to bunch up and position the lemmings in a precise manner).

===========

Also Tricky 9 improved to 3 with a glitch-free solution (which barely works, with a barely survivable fall for the crowd and lucky alignment with the level terrain to still allow the crowd be turned by that blocker).  Replay also attached.  I don't think glitching through the steel would yield any further improvement on this level, but feel free to prove me wrong.

And Tricky 20 should of course be 1; I don't think a replay is needed for that.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2013, 11:13:17 PM »
I already did up to Fun 20 - only Fun 14 and Fun 20 were really interesting so far.

Hmm, you sure you don't mean Fun 15 when you said Fun 14?  With Fun 15 you reported 4, but it already takes 4 builders just to cross that big gap at the lower route.  Of the various previously posted challenge replays for that level, I've reviewed both a 4-builder solution that uses no builders once the big gap is crossed, and a 2-builder solution that gets to the ceiling from top of the tallest pillar.  Neither seem like they can be adapted to a max-4-of-same, at least not without a lot of rework (and a likely "glitch" designation for both).

Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2013, 03:01:51 AM »
I don't remember even solving 15, that was an "I'm leaving this for a glitch expert"... xD I must've put something else's score there by mistake. But no,I did mean 14. It wasn't overly challenging, but it was at least more than just the normal solution with maybe a slight adaptation.

Fun 20 was probably the most fun (no pun intended) so far, though Tricky 11 and 12 were quite interesting too.

Now that being said... for Fun 15, it's possible to get into ceiling using only two builders, right? You'd then two (well, not entirely impossible with one, but I doubt you could pull it off with a 3-of-each-skill limit whereas 4 might be reasonable especially given the extra builder) to slide up the last pillar... obviously, prior to completing the path, you use climbers to get your lemmings up there instead of sliding. I'm NOT going to try and pull this off, but any obvious problems with the theory?
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2013, 11:27:55 PM »
Moving on with a few more results:

Taxing 7: 5
Taxing 8: 5
Taxing 11: 7
Taxing 12: 6
Taxing 13: 2
Taxing 14: 17
Taxing 15: 3
Taxing 16: 7

Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #13 on: October 29, 2013, 04:36:14 AM »
Updated, I also bolded the gaps to make them more noticable.

EDIT: I also tried Taxing 17. I came up with a solution with no more than 3 of each skill. It's quite a sneaky one, so try and work it out yourself first, but here's my replay.
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Online Proxima

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #14 on: October 29, 2013, 05:19:04 PM »
Taxing 17: 2 (sorry, namida!)
Taxing 18: 1 (glitch)
Taxing 20: 2
Taxing 22: 1. Another cool challenge, and glitch-free. Again, try and work it out for yourself if you haven't seen it before.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #15 on: October 29, 2013, 06:39:59 PM »
All of Tame, with the obvious exception of 13, can be done with 1 of each. Level 19 is the only one that's really a challenge.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #16 on: October 29, 2013, 07:05:11 PM »
Now that being said... for Fun 15, it's possible to get into ceiling using only two builders, right? You'd then two (well, not entirely impossible with one, but I doubt you could pull it off with a 3-of-each-skill limit whereas 4 might be reasonable especially given the extra builder) to slide up the last pillar... obviously, prior to completing the path, you use climbers to get your lemmings up there instead of sliding. I'm NOT going to try and pull this off, but any obvious problems with the theory?
I can answer this one. The two-builder route depends on other lemmings mining while the bridge is in progress, to take away ceiling pixels so the builder doesn't stop. That makes it unusable for this challenge, as you need too many climbers and miners.

I have actually been looking at this one, and I can tell you that the ceiling mining in Clam's solution is not optimized and can actually be done with no more than 3 miners, by having the 2nd builder start building from the left edge of the step instead.  See attached for proof.  This not only makes 4 an almost certainty for this level, but actually leaves 3 just within the realm of possible (obviously one of the climbers cannot be a climber anymore in that case...).  It'll likely take some time though before I can get "3" to actually work, if it does turn out to work...

================

In the meantime here's a "3 (glitch)" for Tricky 13 instead, courtesy of my solution from the "What skills can't you live without?" challenge.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #17 on: October 29, 2013, 07:14:31 PM »
Excellent! Meanwhile, here's what I have so far for Crazy:

Crazy 1: 1
Crazy 2: 3
Crazy 3: 2
Crazy 4: 4
Crazy 5: 7
Crazy 6: 5
Crazy 7: 3

Crazy 9: 2
Crazy 10: 7
Crazy 11: 1
Crazy 12: 2
Crazy 13: 2
Crazy 14: 4
Crazy 15: 3
Crazy 16: 2
Crazy 17: 3
Crazy 18: 2
Crazy 19: 2 (88% is possible with 1)

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2013, 08:47:44 PM »
I forgot that Taxing 7 needs the glitch flag added.

Anyway, a few more results (a lot of these are from the WSCYLW thread)

Taxing 27: 6
Mayhem 1: 15
Mayhem 2: 6 (?) -- This is assuming the 6-builder solution from the WSCYLW thread doesn't need more than 6 blockers and/or bombers.
Mayhem 4: 2
Mayhem 5: 5
Mayhem 6: 6
Mayhem 7: 4
Mayhem 8: 3
Mayhem 9: 5
Mayhem 10: 5
Mayhem 11: 9
Mayhem 12: 3 (glitch)
Mayhem 13: 2

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2013, 09:20:04 PM »
Mayhem 2: 6 (?) -- This is assuming the 6-builder solution from the WSCYLW thread doesn't need more than 6 blockers and/or bombers.

Confirmed--it uses 1 climber, 3 bombers, 4 blockers and 6 builders (and glitch with blocker to push crowd into a wall).  A replay was supposedly posted here, but I just noticed somehow the forum is no longer showing a download link anymore for it (same with many other older posts). :o I'll try to alert Adam or similar and see if that can be sorted out on his end.  If not, at least I can update all those posts of mine to reattach the missing replays.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2013, 09:48:40 PM »
Crazy 19: 2 (88% is possible with 1)

1 is now confirmed, as I was able to eke out 90%.

Quote from: spoiler
Although the fifth lemming can't be saved, he can still be put to good use.  With a perfectly timed bomber, he can take out a chunk of the ledge as he is falling, providing a low enough place to start the final basher.  The bomber must be timed perfectly, otherwise either he will take out some of the bridge or you won't get the proper terrain setup.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2013, 10:29:59 PM »
Awesome!  :thumbsup:

Also, as there are relatively few levels that need glitches for this challenge, I'd like to keep a record of the best results without glitches as well:

Fun 6: 2
Fun 15: 6
Fun 16: 6
Tricky 8: 9
Tricky 13: 5
Tricky 28: 2
Taxing 4: 10
Taxing 7: 6
Taxing 18: 6
Taxing 21: 3
Mayhem 1: 23
Mayhem 2: 8
Mayhem 12: 10
Mayhem 17: 6
Mayhem 23: 7
Mayhem 28: 13
Mayhem 29: 11
Tame 13: 3
Crazy 8: 4
Crazy 15: 4
Wild 9: 9
Wild 11: 6
Wild 19: 13
Wicked 1: 2
Wicked 3: 8
Wicked 10: 9
Wicked 13: 14
Wicked 14: 2
Wicked 15: 9
Wicked 20: 3
Havoc 6: 5
Havoc 11: 18
Havoc 13: 3
Havoc 15: 9
Havoc 17: 4

Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #22 on: October 30, 2013, 12:29:52 AM »
I'll update to include these new results and non-glitch results later.

Quote from: spoiler
Although the fifth lemming can't be saved, he can still be put to good use.  With a perfectly timed bomber, he can take out a chunk of the ledge as he is falling, providing a low enough place to start the final basher.  The bomber must be timed perfectly, otherwise either he will take out some of the bridge or you won't get the proper terrain setup.

I used a similar logic in Cascade - make use of a lemming that would otherwise die. The difference being that in the optimal solution, this lemming DOES end up being saved, but the first worker dies in his place.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2013, 11:01:12 AM »
Completing Tame--Tame 13 is 2 (glitch) via sliding.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2013, 08:22:38 PM »
Crazy 15: 3

Clam's 2-builder solution (attachment still available in post) from WSCYLW also satisfies this challenge, so down to "2 glitch" for Crazy 15.

============

[edit: and 6 for Crazy 20, based on Clam's 5-builder WSCYLW solution.  Beginning cannot be done like that solution without using up too many bashers, so instead of using up 1 builder + 5 bashers there, we have 2 builders + 1 basher in this solution, keeping both skills' final usage count at 6.]

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2013, 10:52:35 PM »
Some Taxing improvements:  Taxing 21 to "2 (glitch)" and Taxing 25 to 3.  I notice that with Taxing 25, not only do you end up using exactly 3 of each available skill type, but usage of each skill type is clustered to one area in the level per skill type, and the left-to-right order of these 3 areas matches the ordering for which the skill buttons are displayed!

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2013, 10:56:26 AM »
More results:

Taxing 10: 4
Mayhem 17: 2 (glitch) via sliding
Crazy 8: 3 (glitch) via sliding
Wild 15: 2
Wild 17: 2

Wild 15 isn't all that spectacular, but it was harder to work out than I anticipated--other solutions I had initially would end up digging or bashing a little bit of steel in that area right before the exit and therefore would not quite qualify as glitch-free.  Wild 17 is nothing too special but is somewhat sensitive to precise positioning of blocker due to field alignment.

Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2013, 11:31:29 PM »
Taxing 4: I've got very close with 3 per skill, but can't quite seem to group the lemmings together well enough to slide them up - my best is two lemmings short of the requirement. I'd say it can be done, though.

Wild 1: 2 per skill.
Wild 2: 5 per skill. Looks like it'd need 6 at first glance, but there's a trick you can use near the end to save one builder...
Wild 3: 6 per skill. You can do an across-the-top route if you like, but you still need 6 builders either way.
Wild 4: My best is 7, might be improvable with sliding.
Wild 5: 4 per skill. Take the low route. You can even block three of your bombers (but you'll need to time one, since you need a blocker at the bottom) - which is good, because two need to be pixel-precise and the other two still need to be pretty close to it.
Wild 6: 2 per skill. 1 per skill is possible to save 98% (with the last lemming dying, not being bombed), but the level requires 100%.
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2013, 05:48:32 PM »
Wild 7: 3
Wild 8: 10 (obviously)
Wild 9: 0 (nuke glitch) / 9 (glitch-free)
Wild 10: 3
Wild 11: 2 (steel glitches) / 6 (glitch-free)
Wild 13: 2
Wild 14: 2 (a nice challenge!)
Wild 16: 4
Wild 18: 5
Wild 19: 7 (ceiling route) / 13 (glitch-free)
Wild 20: 2

I've added my best glitch-free results for these and other levels to the post further up the page. (The result of 1 for Tricky 28 is glitchy, surely?)

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #29 on: November 04, 2013, 01:44:38 AM »
Tricky 28 result involves bombing away steel by being near it instead of actually on it (ie: not actually in the steel area). It doesn't involve sliding or steel cancelling or anything, though - the only other trick used was having a blocker turn a builder, which I don't think counts as a glitch. Do we usually count that one (the steel thing) as a glitch? If so, I'll add the tag.

If you do count that as a glitch, the glitch-free solution would be two, by doing it the same way but instead of bombing the steel, using an extra builder to get to the top of it.
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #30 on: November 04, 2013, 02:05:22 AM »
Do we usually count that one (the steel thing) as a glitch?

Yes -- destroying steel terrain is a glitch if it's essential to the solution (it's okay if it happens incidentally as a result of skill placement but you don't require it, i.e. the solution would work equally well with Cheapo or Lix steel mechanics).

As for other results that should be tagged -- Mayhem 1 (15) requires sliding, and I'm not sure how Crazy 10 (7) is done?

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2013, 09:00:36 AM »
Wild 18 improved to 4.  Pretty straightforward, actually.

Also, I've got 3 right now for Wild 12.  I don't know whether 2 is possible or not because I'm not sure how many blockers and bashers the 2-builder solution from the WSCYLW thread uses.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2013, 12:21:15 PM »
Ah, so it is possible to interrupt the basher without using up a builder  ;P  For some reason, I was trying to find a way to do that but just couldn't think of anything; then after you confirmed it was possible, it came to me almost at once. Here's a replay.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2013, 01:07:53 PM »
Here are some more glitch-free results, but I'm sure the glitch experts can improve on 14 and 18 at least...

Mayhem 14: 16
Mayhem 15: 4
Mayhem 16: 1
Mayhem 18: 13 12
Mayhem 19: 8
Mayhem 20: 2
Mayhem 21: 21
Mayhem 22: 6 (another nice challenge)
Mayhem 24: 3
Mayhem 25: 5
Mayhem 26: 7
Mayhem 27: 2
Mayhem 28: 13 (very close at one point, so I wouldn't rule out 12)
Mayhem 29: 12

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2013, 01:35:16 PM »
As for other results that should be tagged -- Tricky 9 (3) must use steel glitches, otherwise it takes 4 builders just to cross the gaps.

Um, no:

Also Tricky 9 improved to 3 with a glitch-free solution (which barely works, with a barely survivable fall for the crowd and lucky alignment with the level terrain to still allow the crowd be turned by that blocker).  Replay also attached.  I don't think glitching through the steel would yield any further improvement on this level, but feel free to prove me wrong.

All results I've reported so far I've reported with correct glitch tagging.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2013, 01:51:27 PM »
Wild 4: My best is 7, might be improvable with sliding.

I believe Clam's 6-builder solution from WSCYLW is based on digging away the right edge of the column of steel immediately before the exit platform.  I'm pretty sure it uses less than 6 bashers and should qualify for this challenge, but due to lost replays I guess I (or someone) will have to (re)confirm the solution...

Wild 6: 2 per skill. 1 per skill is possible to save 98% (with the last lemming dying, not being bombed), but the level requires 100%.

1 is possible at 100%.  I think this is from my (or someone's) 3-skill solution from the min-skills challenge, which no doubt has lost the replay attachement at this point, so re-attached here.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2013, 07:32:28 PM »
My apologies.

Meanwhile, the interrupted basher trick from Wild 12 works on Mayhem 18 too, so that's down to 12, still glitch-free. I've tried to save another builder by handling the left side differently, but it seems the chute is a single pixel too wide to allow this.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #37 on: November 05, 2013, 02:53:31 AM »
Mayhem 19 can be done with 7, glitch free, from the WSCYLW thread.  I don't feel like duplicating it right now because of the amount of precise bomber timing involved.

Mayhem 23 can be done with 7, glitch free (another nice challenge).  I suspect that the number can be reduced to the 4-5 range via sliding.

Mayhem 28 can be done with 5, using the ceiling route (steel glitches).

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #38 on: November 05, 2013, 12:22:49 PM »
Mayhem 23 can be done with 7, glitch free (another nice challenge).  I suspect that the number can be reduced to the 4-5 range via sliding.

Indeed.  Pooty's solution from the WSCYLW thread qualifies for this challenge for "4 (glitch)".  Lost replay in that post reattached here.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #39 on: November 05, 2013, 03:33:24 PM »
I've added to the first post all Mayhem levels for which results are the same as WSCYLW -- these are impossible to improve, even with glitches, unless a new solution is found. I also added Mayhem 29, for which WSCYLW has 10 builders, and the level does not give more than 10 of any other skill. Clam's replay uses a glitch (digging on steel to release a blocker). I think this can be replaced with a builder for a glitch-free 11; the timing is tricky and I haven't pulled it off yet, but I've gotten close enough to feel sure it can be done.

This means the only Mayhem levels currently without a definite result are 14, 18, 26 and 30.

EDIT: Clam's Mayhem 30 8-builder replay uses 9 each of bashers and miners. Since it also uses 8 bombers and all the diggers, I think it's fair to guess that 8 of each is impossible. The replay uses the miner positioning glitch, for a left-side lemming to mine down while leaving the exit trigger touchable without a builder. For this challenge we have a builder spare, so the result is 9 (glitch-free).

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #40 on: November 06, 2013, 12:35:52 AM »
First half of Wicked:

1: 1 (glitch)
2: 5
3: 3 (glitch)
4: 4
5: 1
6: 2
7: 4
8: 4
9: 9
10: 7, from the WSCYLW thread, which I'm assuming uses a glitch

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #41 on: November 06, 2013, 01:55:34 AM »
10: 7, from the WSCYLW thread, which I'm assuming uses a glitch

Yes, that solution of mine uses steel canceling and blocker pushing lemming into wall.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #42 on: November 06, 2013, 06:53:10 AM »
Tried to reduce that annoyingly high number on Mayhem 21. I came very close, but missed a couple of lemmings. T.T (And had my solution worked, it would've saved a whole ONE floater anyway... xD)

To anyone else trying, the major trick was (I don't know, maybe the existing solution already uses this, I didn't check it) - if you make a lemming bash exactly three steps after landing, you can have another lemming walk to the edge of the bash tunnel, turn around, and build immediately after turning (while still on that one pixel of extra height) - if you positioned the basher right, lemmings falling onto the bridge being built will survive the fall (you will need two more floaters after you start building - one lemming will land on the bridge, but one pixel too low to survive it, whereas another brick will be placed and thus make it survivable before the next one comes). I would assume a similar setup is possible coming from the left rather than the right, though I don't see it being particularly useful (unless you can somehow afford another builder to stop the basher). Here's a replay illustrating what I mean, since it's somewhat hard to describe.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2013, 07:32:23 AM »
It was Clam's solution on the WSCYLW challenge that first found and used the trick, and I'm pretty sure he's looked into the variations and have made the number of floaters as low as possible for that challenge (and therefore this one).  But hey, feel free to try, if you succeed it will work for both challenges.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2013, 10:43:29 AM »
No, that trick's the only thing I've got. The only conceivable way to win from that point is to send a climber up, and dig down one side of the thin piece. The left is obviously a bad idea - you need heaps of floaters if you want to have enough time for that one (unless some REALLY good grouping can be done somehow with the release rate?), and the right requires you to do it at 19 floaters, meaning you need 21 altogether - I'm guessing that's probably what he did. The best I acheived with any lower amount of floaters was 78% with 19 floaters total.

If you try building out of the starting place, you only need 5 floaters, but even if you climb and dig until you're low enough to make the thin part only one pixel thick, you can't build high enough with 3 builders, and no matter what you do you'll need at least one - not to mention that there's not much you can do at this point. A direct drop requires two builders, leaving only two to both create a landing space and get the crowd to the direct drop. Not possible.

The ONLY thing I can think of that I haven't tried that might work, is coming up with some builder setup in the gap to make the basher go through all the way, but since you'd need one to get to the exit and at least one to create a landing space (without worrying about how you're going to turn your climber around, since that's the only possible place for a landing on this one - use an earlier floater to do the bashing), I have no idea how you'd set that up with only two builders and only one lemming available to set it up. If you could somehow get a second lemming over there, without a continous crowd incoming, it could be done...

I tried a few setups with two lemmings at the top (not that one though, there wouldn't be enough builders since you need two at the start), by sliding one up and making the other a climber. The builder used to initiate the slide also was high enough that, if built after turning around, it provided a safe landing place, so one of them wasn't a waste at least. I couldn't really go anywhere with it though, not enough builders.

If you could somehow group together the lemmings well enough, could you possibly slide twice with 3 builders and without the digger? I doubt it, but if you could, you could slide one up while building the landing, make him dig at the edge then build across the gap, so that neither fall is fatal, then you just slide the rest of the lemmings up. The one that's trapped, that's what the climber's for. I have no idea how such a setup could possibly be made though.
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #45 on: November 06, 2013, 02:19:01 PM »
Returning to glitch-free results, Wicked 1 with 2 is obvious, Wicked 10 seems to need 9, and for Wicked 3, both the left and right side routes use all eight builders and I can't find a way to avoid this.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #46 on: November 07, 2013, 02:11:23 AM »
I updated the first post, but I see I didn't post the reply. I had a go at Wicked 11, I did it with 4 (using 4 each of bombers, blockers and builders), but I see the skills you can't live without has only 2 builders. What was used of other skills in acheiving that?

Gonna try some more levels now. Might see what I can fill in on L1.

Mayhem 26, we have a starting point of 6. Bombers, surprisingly, not builders (which came in at 5). If you can cut one bomber off this solution without using a builder... (you DO have two blockers to spare, and it saves well above the required number of lemmings).

The rest of them... I am not touching those with a 10 foot pole, except maybe Mayhem 18...
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #47 on: November 07, 2013, 06:44:19 AM »
I updated the first post, but I see I didn't post the reply. I had a go at Wicked 11, I did it with 4 (using 4 each of bombers, blockers and builders), but I see the skills you can't live without has only 2 builders. What was used of other skills in acheiving that?

Wicked 11 is confirmed with 3 (see spoiler).  I'm pretty sure that the 2-builder solution requires 3 or 4 bombers, so that won't work here.

Quote from: spoiler
Use a digger and a basher to handle the beginning and then mine through the tree.  Once through the tree, the miner blocks, and another lemming blocks the left side before the trap.  I tackled the next obstacle with two miners and a bomber, and after that the route was pretty straightforward with three builders and a basher.  A final bomber releases the crowd.

And now for the rest of Wicked:
12: 6
13: 7 (glitch)
14: 1 (glitch)
15: 6 (this appears to require steel glitches; let me know if I'm wrong)
16: 1
17: 4 ***This improves on the WSCYLW result; see that thread for details
18: 5 4 -- I'm thinking 3 may be doable, but I'm struggling with getting the bombers to work in my favor.
19: 5
20: 1 (glitch)

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #48 on: November 07, 2013, 10:16:39 AM »
Very nice find on 17  :thumbsup:

I've had a quick pass through those to set preliminary glitch-free records, but I expect some of these can be improved.

Wicked 13: 14
Wicked 14: 2
Wicked 15: 9
Wicked 20: 3

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #49 on: November 07, 2013, 11:59:09 AM »
Havoc 1 gives a pretty easy 5. I don't think any less would be possible, due to needing builders to cross gaps.

Havoc 3 also gives a very easy 2. Havoc 5 is quite obviously 2. Havoc 6 can be done with 2 using a direct drop.

I can get 5 on Havoc 19, but it's probably improvable to 4.
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #50 on: November 07, 2013, 12:55:07 PM »
Havoc 4: 1 (ccexplore's floor route)
Havoc 8: 4
Havoc 9: 13
Havoc 11: 8 (glitch) from WSCYLW; glitch-free best is 18
Havoc 12: 9
Havoc 14: 4
Havoc 20: 7

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #51 on: November 07, 2013, 07:23:32 PM »
Havoc 2: 9 (EDIT: this is now glitch-free.)

Havoc 6 seems to need 5 miners for glitch-free.

Havoc 7: 6. The fewest-builder solution is to use a climb-bomber on the right side; then you need 6 climbers to save the required 15/20.

Havoc 19: 3, glitch-free.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #52 on: November 07, 2013, 09:27:28 PM »
Even direct drop is considered a glitch these days? O_O Shows how long I've been away...

Anyway, that just leaves 13 and 15-18 for Havoc, then there's a few levels that never got a conclusive answer: Fun 15, Taxing 4, Mayhem 14, Mayhem 18, and Wild 12.

I've been having a go at Mayhem 18, and I've come up with a decent plan in general, it's just down to pulling it off well now.
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #53 on: November 08, 2013, 09:46:27 AM »
On Mayhem 18, I don't know how this could be improved in any way. I looked at the 8-builder solution made years ago but I think 8 is as far as it goes. I don't think this will work in 7 considering the number of bombers and blockers you have to use to break the steel.

As for Fun 15, with thanks to whoever made the test replay, I have expanded on that perspective and confirmed that it's possible with 5 of each skill! Here's the replay.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #54 on: November 08, 2013, 09:59:51 AM »
On Mayhem 18, I don't know how this could be improved in any way. I looked at the 8-builder solution made years ago but I think 8 is as far as it goes. I don't think this will work in 7 considering the number of bombers and blockers you have to use to break the steel.

Well, considering that my best effort so far used over 10, you're doing well. =P
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #55 on: November 08, 2013, 12:42:34 PM »
Or rather, Clam is doing well, since it's his replay  8)

Here's what I have for the rest of Havoc:

2: 9 glitch-free
13: 5 glitch-free (WSCYLW says 3, I can't match this yet)
15: 5 (glitch). No idea what the best glitch-free is yet; I feel a shortcut route ought to be possible, but with the skills and save requirement so tight, I'm struggling to get anything to work.
16: 3
17: 2 (glitch) or 4
18: 8

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #56 on: November 08, 2013, 02:15:48 PM »
Here's Havoc 13 with 3 builders (and 2 blockers), not sure how you want to classify it. ??? Actually having done the level, I'm now thinking WSCYLW for that level can be improved to 2 builders via sliding (similar to the Crazy 8 2-builder solution).  Must try that some time.  (Though not sure whether it is possible to keep it down to only 2 blockers on such a solution, so might not help with this challenge anyway.)

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #57 on: November 08, 2013, 05:50:19 PM »
Awesome solution  :thumbsup: It seems to be clearly glitch-free; I'm not sure which part you were wondering about?

Here's Havoc 15 glitch-free with 10, which I'm sure is improvable, but at least it's less than the normal solution to the level!

EDIT: Got 9. Not sure whether 8 is possible.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2013, 01:31:35 PM »
18: 5 4 -- I'm thinking 3 may be doable, but I'm struggling with getting the bombers to work in my favor.

It took a little trial and error and some precision but here, down to 3 for Wicked 18, no glitches (the steel destruction is clearly incidental).

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2013, 03:40:24 PM »
Actually having done the level, I'm now thinking WSCYLW for that level can be improved to 2 builders via sliding (similar to the Crazy 8 2-builder solution).  Must try that some time.  (Though not sure whether it is possible to keep it down to only 2 blockers on such a solution, so might not help with this challenge anyway.)

It worked out nicely thanks to the terrain effectively saving me a blocker, so not only did I improve on WSCYLW and least-number-of-skills, the sliding solution also works for this challenge, improving Havoc 13 to "2 (glitch)".

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #60 on: November 11, 2013, 12:50:24 PM »
Taxing 5 improved to 5, glitch-free (steel destruction is incidental).  I based this on my 5-builder 100% solution from WSCYLW-max% challenge, so potentially more complicated than actually needed for this challenge.  Going lower would require sliding so I'll leave that for some other time.

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #61 on: May 08, 2020, 01:35:17 PM »
Just looking at the remaining levels of Original Lemmings. It's harder to execute these solutions when some of the replays disappear, and also without specific resources on what exact implications need to occur to pull off these glitches. I have made some good results here, but some levels I'm struggling with too.

Fun 15 I can confirm is improved to 4 of each. Replay attached. And yep, there is sliding involved here.

Mayhem 18: Improved to 6 of each. This solution combines elements of the 3 builder replay with the old 8-builder's data for the skills used on each side. In order to distribute the skills evenly it turned out I needed to combine the 3-builder's left side solution with the 8-builder's right.

Taxing 4 requires more sliding obviously, but where to do it will take some guessing. Apparently I can't see the 1-builder or the 7-skill solution on the forums anywhere :( According to the 7-skill post you'll need to execute several release rate changes. Result at the moment stands at 5 thanks to a 1 builder solution.

Mayhem 14 is easily doable with 16, but can be done with less. Apparently the 15-skill replay uses 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 4 builders and 2 diggers, which adds up to 8, and involves the glitch that doesn't work on Lemmix replays (And therefore, I don't know how to pull this off). So far I can't tell which 7 other skills are required to make the solution work.
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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #62 on: May 08, 2020, 07:20:55 PM »
Just looking at the remaining levels of Original Lemmings. It's harder to execute these solutions when some of the replays disappear, and also without specific resources on what exact implications need to occur to pull off these glitches. I have made some good results here, but some levels I'm struggling with too.

Fun 15 I can confirm is improved to 4 of each. Replay attached. And yep, there is sliding involved here.

Mayhem 18: Improved to 6 of each. This solution combines elements of the 3 builder replay with the old 8-builder's data for the skills used on each side. In order to distribute the skills evenly it turned out I needed to combine the 3-builder's left side solution with the 8-builder's right.

Taxing 4 requires more sliding obviously, but where to do it will take some guessing. Apparently I can't see the 1-builder or the 7-skill solution on the forums anywhere :( According to the 7-skill post you'll need to execute several release rate changes. Result at the moment stands at 5 thanks to a 1 builder solution.

Mayhem 14 is easily doable with 16, but can be done with less. Apparently the 15-skill replay uses 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 4 builders and 2 diggers, which adds up to 8, and involves the glitch that doesn't work on Lemmix replays (And therefore, I don't know how to pull this off). So far I can't tell which 7 other skills are required to make the solution work.

The glitch in question works on Lemmix, including in replays, if you use the updated versions (with added code by myself and ccexplore - this particular glitch is ccexplore's doing) here: https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=download_list&program=42

EricLang's original versions definitely did not support this glitch, and my understanding is that it's among the glitches his recent improved version doesn't support either.
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #63 on: May 08, 2020, 10:48:28 PM »
Tricky 14 is improved to 6 of each, glitch-free (unless you count a miner's backswing taking out terrain as a glitch).  The attached screenshot shows the general route.  The blockers in the attached screenshot were placed to stop the respective lemmings from digging/bashing; they do not block the crowd from walking left-to-right.

Offline Minim

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #64 on: May 09, 2020, 06:08:34 AM »
Nice! I had a go at trying to copy your route to make a Lemmix replay, but only got as far as the halfway point. Here's what I got below. The time is surprisingly really tight on this level! :sick: Looks like you've used several lemmings to make this route work. How many lemmings did you use as workers? I'm guessing about four, but I used probably too many. Closely looking at the image, it looks like you cut the terrain with another lem during a build, something I was also able to pull off in my replay. Did you make any RR changes near the start? Also wondering, on the last part of the level if you used any more skills apart from the blocker to ascend the lemmings high enough to execute that highest basher.

Mayhem 14 is easily doable with 16, but can be done with less. Apparently the 15-skill replay uses 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 4 builders and 2 diggers, which adds up to 8, and involves the glitch that doesn't work on Lemmix replays (And therefore, I don't know how to pull this off). So far I can't tell which 7 other skills are required to make the solution work.

The glitch in question works on Lemmix, including in replays, if you use the updated versions (with added code by myself and ccexplore - this particular glitch is ccexplore's doing) here: https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=download_list&program=42

EricLang's original versions definitely did not support this glitch, and my understanding is that it's among the glitches his recent improved version doesn't support either.

I do have these versions by the way. Just looking for a video of it really. Still, I'm glad they've been included in the Lemmix player now. Thanks to both of you.

EDIT: Made it this time! Only 88% though, but still enough to pass. Solved replay attached.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2020, 02:10:45 PM by Minim »
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #65 on: May 10, 2020, 05:16:41 AM »
My 4-builder solution to Mayhem 25 also improves the result for this thread to 4 (glitch).

Offline Minim

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #66 on: May 18, 2020, 08:29:50 PM »
Taxing 4 requires more sliding obviously, but where to do it will take some guessing. Apparently I can't see the 1-builder or the 7-skill solution on the forums anywhere :( According to the 7-skill post you'll need to execute several release rate changes. Result at the moment stands at 5 thanks to a 1 builder solution.

Mayhem 14 is easily doable with 16, but can be done with less. Apparently the 15-skill replay uses 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 4 builders and 2 diggers, which adds up to 8, and involves the glitch that doesn't work on Lemmix replays (And therefore, I don't know how to pull this off). So far I can't tell which 7 other skills are required to make the solution work.

Right. I can safely say that I've made improvements on the two remaining levels in question, with one of them being a final result. Both replays attached.

Taxing 4's final result is 2 (glitch). It's the same as the previously unreleased 1-builder solution but with a simple swap: The falling blocker for a well-timed bomber.

On Mayhem 14, the lowest I can go is 8 (glitch). Hard to believe that blockers is the most used skill here. BTW this is a variation of the 15-skill part 1 solution replay. Looking at Clam's spoiler over in the minimum skills thread, it looks like he used at least 2 bombers, probably 2 blockers (to execute the steel glitch) and 3 diggers, which added together would make 5, but I still can't verify without a replay.
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Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2020, 03:03:51 AM »
Taxing 15: 3

Do you by any chance happen to have the replay for this one?



Also, Crazy 8 3-of-each achieved without glitches.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2020, 03:17:37 AM by namida »
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #68 on: January 01, 2021, 07:51:46 PM »
No replay, but I was able to rework the solution and include a few screenshots.

Taxing 15 - 3 of each (click to show/hide)

Offline namida

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Re: Fewest repeats of the same skill to beat levels.
« Reply #69 on: January 02, 2021, 04:58:19 AM »
Here's a replay of it. :)
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