Quote from: roltemurto on April 02, 2026, 03:49:02 AMI took a while for me to realize that you moved this under a separate topic, I thought I hallucinated reporting it  . Sorry about that.

Haha! Apologies, it's just easier to keep track of these things when they have separate topics.

Quote from: roltemurto on April 02, 2026, 03:49:02 AMI'm deleting the file now to see what new errors it'll fill up with.

Thanks for posting the full Error logs, some of those will no doubt be from before the previous "ToUpperInvariant" fix.

It would be helpful if you could clear the logs, then generate the settings error, and post just what comes up from that error.

From what you posted above, it seems to be a null reference exception when attempting to read settings. However, this doesn't tell us why the error occurred. Your settings file is clearly there, and the Editor is now locale-aware (although, there may be more that needs to be done in this regard).

So, let's see what comes up in the log from only the settings error. And, something to check in the meantime: is your settings file being saved to the "settings" folder in your SLX directory when it gets regenerated?

If nothing useful comes up in the log, I'll expand the error reporting to try and pinpoint exactly what's causing the null reference. But, let's completely exhaust the existing system first.

I took a while for me to realize that you moved this under a separate topic, I thought I hallucinated reporting it  . Sorry about that.

My ErrorLog.txt file is above 10MBs ... Repeating multiple same errors "multiple" times. So I used Notepad++'s "remove duplicate lines feature. Here are the original unique lines from that file;

System.ArgumentException: Parametre geçerli değil.
   konum: System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(String filename)
   konum: SLXEditor.Utility.CreateBitmapFromFile(String filePath)
   konum: SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.Image(String imageKey)
System.Exception: 'System.Exception' türünde özel durum oluşturuldu.
   konum: SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.CreateNewTerrainInfo(String filePath)
   konum: SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.ImageInfo(String imageName)
   konum: SLXEditor.ImageLibrary.AddNewImage(String imageKey)
System.NullReferenceException: Nesne başvurusu bir nesnenin örneğine ayarlanmadı.
   konum: SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.ReadLevelInfoFromForm(Boolean allowWriteBack)
   konum: SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.textbox_Leave(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   konum: SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.chk_Lvl_AutoStart_Leave(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   konum: System.Windows.Forms.CheckBox.OnCheckedChanged(EventArgs e)
   konum: System.Windows.Forms.CheckBox.set_CheckState(CheckState value)
   konum: System.Windows.Forms.CheckBox.set_Checked(Boolean value)
   konum: SLXEditor.Settings.ReadSettingsFromFile()
   konum: SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.CreateCompositeImage(String filePath, List`1 anims, LoadStyleAnimData primaryAnim, Int32& marginLeft, Int32& marginTop, Int32& marginRight, Int32& marginBottom, Boolean forceOriginalSize)
   konum: SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.CreateNewObjectInfo(String filePath)
   konum: SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.CommitLevelChanges()
   konum: System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(Int32 width, Int32 height, PixelFormat format)
   konum: System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(Int32 width, Int32 height)
System.DivideByZeroException: Sıfırla bölme girişiminde bulunuldu.

And here's the translated version;

System.ArgumentException: Parameter is not valid.
   at System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(String filename)
   at SLXEditor.Utility.CreateBitmapFromFile(String filePath)
   at SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.Image(String imageKey)
System.Exception: Exception of type 'System.Exception' was thrown.
   at SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.CreateNewTerrainInfo(String filePath)
   at SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.ImageInfo(String imageName)
   at SLXEditor.ImageLibrary.AddNewImage(String imageKey)
System.NullReferenceException: Object reference not set to an instance of an object.
   at SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.ReadLevelInfoFromForm(Boolean allowWriteBack)
   at SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.textbox_Leave(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.chk_Lvl_AutoStart_Leave(Object sender, EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.CheckBox.OnCheckedChanged(EventArgs e)
   at System.Windows.Forms.CheckBox.set_CheckState(CheckState value)
   at System.Windows.Forms.CheckBox.set_Checked(Boolean value)
   at SLXEditor.Settings.ReadSettingsFromFile()
   at SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.CreateCompositeImage(String filePath, List`1 anims, LoadStyleAnimData primaryAnim, Int32& marginLeft, Int32& marginTop, Int32& marginRight, Int32& marginBottom, Boolean forceOriginalSize)
   at SLXEditor.LoadStylesFromFile.CreateNewObjectInfo(String filePath)
   at SLXEditor.SLXEditForm.CommitLevelChanges()
   at System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(Int32 width, Int32 height, PixelFormat format)
   at System.Drawing.Bitmap..ctor(Int32 width, Int32 height)
System.DivideByZeroException: Attempted to divide by zero.
I'm not sure why is it throwing too many errors and produced 184146 lines of errors between 20260330140005 - 20260402061859 but I'm deleting the file now to see what new errors it'll fill up with.

Quote from: David on November 18, 2020, 08:57:49 PM"NO_EFFECT" images may be in the foreground or background while "BACKGROUND" images are always in the background (sometimes, I like to quibble ! )

How do I force foreground for and object or terrain so that lemmings walk behind it?

I am trying to create sort of a tunnel with %90 opacity so you can barely see the lemmings walk behind. I want it to physically be pass-through but visually on top of everything.

OR think of a scenario of a dungeon where some of the moss textures appear in front of the lemmings which is also something I like to achieve.
I tried decoration and one way flags as effect but I can't seem to achieve this. "No overwrite" nor "Draw Last" options don't help.  I even edited the level file giving the $gadget "foreground" flag but that also didn't work.

I've been searching the internet, these forums and old documentations for reference but so far no luck.

How does one go about creating a foreground terrain/object/decoration which is occluding but pass-through?

In reply to some of Mobius' earlier comments. Given that he's been maintaining ROTL for many years, his word on the subject and experience working with this particular bunch of levels is invaluable and should be treated as such.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMI already have a folder of levels, some finished, some not that could possibly work here.

Great stuff, we can certainly add these to the pool if you want to share them. We will most likely need backups and replacements, as well as contributions to Assemble.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMI do have a week off presently that I will have some time to re-familiarize myself with ROTL and maybe offer some feedback and thoughts on ROTL in general. I do have some idea of the age of most of the levels.

Any wisdom you can contribute regarding the ROTL levels will be much appreciated, especially with regards to ordering and chronology. I imagine we'll aim to structure the packs at least somewhat by age, but also taking the 2022 ordering into account.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMset a goal for WAY fewer levels than ROTL had/has. Trust me that was too much work Like around 100 or fewer levels would probably be best.

We're thinking 120 per pack at a maximum, but I'd be open to reducing this total to 100 if it does feel like there are too many levels even with 120. Currently, given Proxima's stats and the availability of levels in general, it might be a struggle to get it down to even 120. I'm hoping you might be able to help with that if you have any ideas as to what might be able to be dropped at this stage.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMI'd also recommend starting something totally new that has little or nothing to do with ROTL [other than being like a sequel as it seems you already may have in mind].

I know what you mean here. In fact, I originally did come up with the idea of Assemble as a separate pack intended to continue the general idea of ROTL as a 'community collab' only in spirit. But, there seems to be a general consensus (yourself included) that ROTL has gotten a bit out of hand and gone beyond its original scope somewhat, so I figured we could make a trilogy of it and restructure the original pack to be smaller.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMMy addition of newer levels seems a bad idea in hindsight.

I won't hear of it! It's totally natural to want to add more levels to a project like this, and you did the right thing in carrying it on. I'd say the only thing that probably should have happened sooner is a sequel pack, but I imagine that the idea simply mustn't have been suggested, or maybe there was pressure to include people's levels in the existing pack? Whatever the reason, we have an opportunity to sort that out now so let's go for it.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMwhen dealing with ROTL you're dealing with levels by people who aren't here to answer "is this a backroute or not" ... it would be far better and easier today to make a pack based on people that are here and can address questions and issues with there levels in real time.

Agreed, and we'll of course do that with the new levels. With the older levels, there comes a point where a level is what it is, and probably shouldn't be backroute fixed any further, even if the intended solution is known and the level has been previously fixed.

With that said, we have kaywhyn and Proxima on this project who are both excellent solvers and great at finding alternative solutions, backroutes, etc. We also have your specific knowledge of individual levels, which can and should be taken into account. I suggest that we fix any backroutes that we know of this time around, and then sign the pack off as final. That is, IMO we shouldn't go back and fix it later, even if something else is found. The older levels will then exist as snapshots, and we can move forward with the newer ones.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMAlso it would be nice to utilize the new skills and features of modern games [which the old levels obviously don't have].

This is a tricky one, and will likely come up more when we come to work on the new levels. My current thoughts are that the collab packs should feel like spiritual successors to Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings - OG styles, classic 8 skills, etc. We all make levels in those styles, and it's good to have a collection of the best the Forum has to offer that feels like an OG Lemmings sequel.

It's also worth noting that RetroLemmini can only support the OG objects and classic 8 skills. It feels right to have the community collab be something that is compatible with both platforms (NL and RL), but then I am biased as current RL dev! Other people's opinions on this will be needed later, no doubt.

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMpart of why I got frustrated with the project was that besides the end result being too large lots of people came in saying they wanted to contribute but in the end I did most of the work

Yes, this needs to be addressed. Everyone who's contributing has taken on clear roles, these:

Proxima - Level selection and ordering, general presentation
kaywhyn - Solving and backroute-fixing, managing feedback
Me - porting to RetroLemmini, music selection and ordering, general presentation

There will be more to delegate as time goes on, and we'll all be involved in all parts of the project ultimately, but having people in charge of different things will hopefully make it so that no single person feels it's all up to them to do everything.

As far as yourself goes, you're welcome to be involved in whatever capacity you wish. We will most likely need you for a bit of everything, given your experience with the levels, but there's honestly no pressure for you to do anything in particular. You've already done enough getting us this far!

Quote from: mobius on March 28, 2026, 02:51:52 PMand there were generally only a few people coming forward with opinions that disagreed, so they ended up at an impasse.

This is also a concern, especially given how quickly Forum discussion can dry up. But, I'm confident that we should be able to tackle most decisions as long as we remain invested. A decision-making process will likely present itself as we go on, I imagine, and - if it doesn't - I have several methods and techniques to help with this that I use for my own projects, and they work to just get things done. We can use those if needed.

Quote from: mobius on March 30, 2026, 05:51:02 PMJust to quickly add; in case I didn't mention this before; every time I produced an update; my biggest concern was taking in everyone's feedback.

Thanks for the heads up on this. I'd suggest that we treat existing feedback on the original levels as final, and go with our own individual opinions when it comes to sorting these levels out. For new levels, these will likely require a fresh process of releasing levels, taking on feedback, etc. I'll try to think of the best way to go about this given the current Forum setup. We'll likely hit Discord a lot for this.

Quote from: mobius on March 30, 2026, 05:51:02 PMI fully support whatever you guys do with this. If we start a new pack (sequel or whatever) I'd recommend making a new topic for that, inviting people to post levels and go through a playtesting period, like we did with the lix community set. That was tons of fun honestly, I hope we can do that again, even if my involvement is minimal.

Glad to have your approval, that means a lot. I hope that you can be involved in the new collab pack without the pressure of having to maintain it!

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Quote from: mobius on April 02, 2026, 12:39:09 AMin case any levels by ISteve are being used; The Top Shelf; all these are ruined by instant bombers ... if the levels are adjusted then it wouldn't matter reinstituting a timed bomber.

Thanks for clarifying this, mobius.

I'm pretty sure we've opted not to include levels by Insane Steve that are duplicates from his main level pack (although this decision isn't by any means final yet), so this may not be an issue anyway, but good to know just in case this particular level is ROTL-exclusive.

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Quote from: WillLem on April 01, 2026, 11:57:13 PMOne important difference: RetroLemmini supports optional Timed Bombers. Levels which feature the Bomber skill should ideally not require the skill to be used within the first 5 seconds of the first lem spawning. Should this come up, the ported level may need a small layout tweak to ensure that the standard solution is still possible with Timed Bombers.

A few levels come to mind off the bat: at least two levels by BulletRide (not sure if any of them actually ended up in ROTL in any version however...), also possibly a level by Fleech. And in case any levels by ISteve are being used; The Top Shelf; all these are ruined by instant bombers (if not adjusted in some way), the latter example turns out to have a rather simple fix which was applied in his big pack. If the levels are adjusted then it wouldn't matter reinstituting a timed bomber.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMstill leaves 287
...
So the process of splitting the pack will also be a selection process -- some levels won't make the cut any more.

Easier repeats are another gimme. Any stats on the level count once these are removed?

Also, are any other levels featured in other packs, or is it just the ones from Mazu, Insane Steve and Clam?

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMlevels will need to work on both engines, and I'm not sure exactly what set of features are available in RL.

At a very quick glance:

NL/RL shared level properties

Max level size: 3200 x 3200
Release Rate: 1-99 (locked RR supported)
Time limits (<= 99 minutes, infinite time supported)
Max lem count: 999
Normal lems only (no zombies or neutrals)
Classic 8 skillset only (<=99 thereof, infinite skills supported)

Available objects:

Fire
Water
Continuous traps (i.e. one-shot is not supported)
One-Way-Arrows (all directions are supported)
Force field left/right (essentially the Blocker effect)

One important difference: RetroLemmini supports optional Timed Bombers. Levels which feature the Bomber skill should ideally not require the skill to be used within the first 5 seconds of the first lem spawning. Should this come up, the ported level may need a small layout tweak to ensure that the standard solution is still possible with Timed Bombers.

Other physics differences are likely to be insignificant, or easy to handle when porting.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMthe first two packs will use only the originals plus a handful of L2 styles, so it might be good to do the same in the third pack for consistency.

Strongly agreed. This project should only feature OG / L2 styles ideally. Level contributions using other sets should be remade, wherever possible.

Important note: RetroLemmini does support tileset mixing, so if a level uses mixed styles it can be ported.

Quote from: Proxima on April 01, 2026, 11:34:34 PMWell, we are producing a new version, so ... this will be version 5.

Sure, but we're working from version 4.0 - that's significant, and should be understood by all concerned. Also, this project is intended to replace v4.0, not follow it. I'll make that clearer in the above post.

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Quote from: WillLem on April 01, 2026, 10:43:27 PM1) The existing pool of levels (as identified by Proxima here) should be split into two packs: Revenge of the Lemmings and Return of the Lemmings

Yes, with some caveats 

The RL version of RotL contains four levels not found in either NL v2 or NL v4 (the versions on my spreadsheet), so we have a pool of 341 levels to draw from. Excluding the levels shared with MazuLems (16), Insane Steve's World (17) and Clammings (21) still leaves 287. WillLem has talked about 2 packs of 120 each, and while we don't have to aim for a round number, that feels like a reasonable target (especially considering the original Lemmings has 120 levels, so we have an idea what a pack that size feels like).

So the process of splitting the pack will also be a selection process -- some levels won't make the cut any more. It might be that this process ends up with more, or less, than 240 levels we want to include, but we can cross that bridge when we come to it.

Quote2) Once these are done, we can then focus on the development of the third in the series: Lemmings Assemble

I'm not entirely sold on the proposed pack titles, but they'll do for now while we talk about plans.

We should decide what restrictions we want to impose for levels in the third pack. Since we want the pack to have NL and RL versions, levels will need to work on both engines, and I'm not sure exactly what set of features are available in RL. Are we restricted to the original 8 skills, and objects that existed in L1?

I know that RL has a total of 33 graphics styles, and we might not even allow all of these, as the first two packs will use only the originals plus a handful of L2 styles, so it might be good to do the same in the third pack for consistency.

Quote4) The NeoLemmix port will be the one being worked on primarily (so, v4.0 as it is currently).

Well, we are producing a new version, so it would be silly to refer to it with the same version number -- this will be version 5.

ATTENTION!

Please read the overall proposal and vote in the poll. Thank you!

We need to be very clear at this stage exactly what's being proposed, so that there is no confusion when we seem to be referring to different "versions" of the pack. The following is exactly what's being suggested, and ideally we need to all agree on this before we move forward with anything:

This project can be thought of as a 'community packs' project, consisting of level contributions from anyone who's ever made a custom lemmings level!

1) The existing pool of levels (as identified by Proxima here) should be split into two packs: Revenge of the Lemmings and Return of the Lemmings

2) Once these are done, we can then focus on the development of the third in the series: Lemmings Assemble

3) The outcome of this project is that we have one version of each of the above packs, ported to both NeoLemmix and RetroLemmini

4) The NeoLemmix port will be the one being worked on primarily (so, v4.0 as it is currently, which will be replaced by the result of this project). The NL version will be cross-ported to RetroLemmini as we go, keeping the two versions as identical as possible

5) All previous versions should then be considered obsolete, but can of course remain available in the forum archive

Do we all more or less agree on this? Please vote in the poll either way, thanks!