Well then, since everyone is sharing their first ideas, here are two new Sports levels intended for Lemmings Hall of Fame!


Jump around
(Difficulty: Easy)


Start me up
(Difficulty: Medium-Hard)

"Enable Infinite Scrolling For Wrap Levels"? That's a thing that still exists?

No, he means during the Jump, without ever being a Faller.

If we decide for A, what would happen if someone put a splat pad under a ceiling, and the Jumper bumped his head on that ceiling within the trigger area of the splat pad? Would he splat on the ceiling, as well?

The case for A would be that a Jumper can also transition into a Glider at the top of his curve - something that is usually also reserved for Fallers.

One could say "You can't have the upsides of being a Faller (=Glider transition possible) without having the downsides... ".

But then, some people might expect that fall height would be calculated from the top of a Jumper's arc as well, rather than from the point where he actually transitions back into a Faller...

Great job, namida! Here are my first impressions:

1) The Jumper actually jumps a little further than I expected - but that's a good thing! Better too far than too short. I placed a couple of standard L2 square blocks next to each other, at such a distance that the gaps between them were just as wide as the blocks themselves. When jumping from block to block, the Jumper would land a little further to the front on each next block compared to the previous one, until he would eventually jump too far and fall off the next block. But that's precisely what I meant anyone can easily adapt in their levels - by just placing these blocks a little further apart, or intentionally not doing so (making the placement of the Jumper a little more challenging, or dare I say "add execution difficulty", for those who like it ). In short: The distance seems perfect for me! Right now the Jumper can jump from the foot of a Builder staircase right to its top, which seems very fitting overall.

2) So, looks like updrafts do increase the jump height, after all? It's minor, so hard to notice, but it does indeed look like it. I certainly approve of this!

3) I had a little trouble getting Jumper-Shimmier transitions to work at first, because I thought the Shimmier had to be assigned when the Jumper actually touched the ceiling - not while he was on the upward part of his curve, still moving towards the ceiling. Thus, initially I thought Jumper-Shimmier transitions hadn't been implemented (yet). But now that I've found out how it works, it seems fine to me!

4) One thing that definitely doesn't work yet is Jumper cloning: The Cloner assignment is delayed until the Jumper lands on his feet again, and then the Clone is a regular Walker. Maybe this is intentional at this point and you simply haven't had the time yet to implement this? In the Anticipated-Jumper-behaviour thread (i.e. the one before discussing the actual physics), it was already pointed out that Jumper cloning would be one of the most difficult parts to code.

5) Another thing that didn't come to my mind until just now: How should Jumpers respond to splat pads?
Shimmiers die when failing to reach for a ceiling, because they transition back into a Faller.
Jumpers will obviously also die if a platform with a splat pad is 1 pixel lower than the platform they started jumping from, because they will transition to a Faller after the jumping arc is completed, and therefore splat.
But what about a Jumper landing straight on a splat pad at the end of or even earlier during his jump (e.g. when jumping onto a platform higher than the one he started from)?

Splat pads seem like a great way to make certain paths "Jumper-proof". We have a new skill, that means we also need to consider new potential backroutes.

I'm just not sure whether it would be counter-intuitive as far as mechanics are concerned, because the Jumper wouldn't transition into a Faller before hitting the splat pad and splatting. But they still "land on it", so that would make the player expect them to splat again...

Just for everyone's information: Currently, Jumpers don't splat when landing on a splat pad within the course of their arc (=meaning the only splat if they become a regular Faller after the jump).

The latter point probably shouldn't be discussed here, but in the Jumper physics thread. I just wanted to mention it for overview purposes; I'll copy that last part and paste it over there.

1.) A slider + jumper could be subsituted by a glider in a lot of design cases. Updrafts can also help to correct the trajectory.

2.) The turnaround of a slider can be substituted with a walker. In the case of 2 horizontal platforms parallel to each other a glider + cloner does the trick.

3.) If you want to simply get down: Floater/glider/updraft + maybe a walker/cloner

4.) Interruption of a climber. We have the jumper option now. You can design keeping the arc in mind.

5.) Jumper -> sliider: Jumper + floater should achieve similar things.

Puzzle potential is not only so much in things a skill can do, but often even more so in the things it explicitly can't do. Just like with the permanent-skill-removal object, people seem to start out by thinking about the new upsides a skill has, and how frequently those would come up - rather than about the drawbacks and how you can build around those.

Of course a Floater can get you down easily - in fact, often too easily. In the past people have repeatedly pointed out how they were having trouble implementing the Floater into puzzles in clever ways, because it's just so limited in what it does. Let's pretend the Floater didn't exist in NeoLemmix (and had never existed in the first place), i.e. it would have to prove its value standing completely on its own ground - would we bother adding it? A skill that basically does nothing else but "survive splat-height drops"?

The Slider can only go down in specific places. Finding those places or creating them in the first place can be an interesting part of a puzzle. The most challenging puzzles are often about how to accomplish a thing that's pretty commonplace by itself: Containing the crowd, isolating a worker lemming, surviving a drop, or simply turning a lemming around just the right number of times.

And this is the other big selling point of the Slider: His distinctive way of turning lemmings around.
Since he usually looks the other way than all remaining Fallers - and does so by default, rather than requiring a Walker / Cloner assignment every time, as it is the case in your examples - he can be useful to isolate a worker lemming from a non-contained crowd. This way, he can be a powerful tool for very challenging flow-control puzzles. But rather than the Walker, which is often regarded as overpowered, you can't simply turn him around anywhere - you need to use the terrain to your advantage, find a drop where you can turn the Slider around, and only there it will work.
Other times, the fact that he turns around will backfire, just like the fact that the Climber goes over every straight wall. That is also usually an advantage, but it can be a disadvantage at times (again, one of the main points raised in favour of the permanent-skill-removal object).

I know some people regard the Slider in its core applications as nothing but a "weaker Floater". And usually, this raises the question: "Why would we want something that's just a weaker version of an existing skill?" But I think I've sufficiently shown how this is not such a clear-cut case as Swimmer vs. Kayaker (the Kayaker is strictly worse than the Swimmer, because it's single-use, and there is no situation in which drowning is better than being a Swimmer - unless you explicitly need to kill a lemming to prevent it from doing some kind of damage, but by that logic, any "bad" skill good be good ).

Rather, Slider vs. Floater is like Stacker vs. Stoner, Platformer vs. Builder: A huge part about the NeoLemmix Platformer is that it never gains height, no matter how hard you try. This is of course an advantage when it's applied to the type of level it was designed for - building under low ceilings without the lemming bumping his head. But more often than not, it is used in levels that only provide Platformers, no Builders, but still require you to gain height some other way. In those levels, the Platformer is clearly disadvantageous compared to the Builder - but that is precisely what creates the challenge!

For example, your point 5) only holds up when the lemming needs to jump across a gap in order to be able to float down safely. If there is terrain connecting the position where the lemming drops and where he's supposed to land, he can simply float down directly and walk, no jump required.

However, if you don't have a Floater, only a rough cliff under which there is terrain at splat height, the Slider will not be able to get down there directly. But let's say on the other side of that cliff is a straight wall. The lemming can now jump over to the other side and start sliding from there. It's basically like "one-way arrows for splat heights" .

A Glider obviously can solve both scenarios on its own. But that is precisely the reason why a Glider is often too powerful for such level scenarios - at least on higher ranks. Just like Builders can be too powerful in levels that are about height-gaining (--> challenging levels will provide only Platformers instead), and Platformers can be too powerful and levels that require construction under low ceilings (--> challenging levels will provide Builders instead).

To convince you more in terms of puzzle potential here are some examples for both skills that I just know thought of without much thinking around:

- Stoners/stackers to create wider platforms or removing them.
- Destructive skills with make a path for the projectile to fly through.
- Create platforms for lemmings to fall on. (Thrower)
- Create holes in walls for something like a glider. (Mortar/bazooka)
- Create terrain to shimmy under it. (Thrower)
- Remove terrain to allow a climber/shimmier/jumper to continue. (Mortar/bazooka)
- Cloners give the ability to hit the left and right side.

This list, although it includes some nice ideas, is somewhat "dishonest" or at least misleading, because you put both distant destruction and distant creation into one list, either assuming that we will have both eventually, or depicting the puzzle potential of the individual skill (meaning only either distant destruction or creation) as more vast than it actually is.

Apart from that, I just want to say: Creating terrain with the Spear Thrower to shimmy under it sounds very precise . Especially since one spear is probably not going to be very long, so you'll need to stick several spears into each other back-to-back. And the Shimmier is very sensitive to height differences - any deviation of two or more pixels between two spears would make him quit. Thus, I can only see this work if the Spear Thrower always throws at a straight horizontal line. That would basically make him a Platformer with range.
Except that the spear would be thrown over the lemming's shoulder, i.e. it would not land at the height of his feet. So he couldn't actually walk onto a path created by his own spears.

My choice would be a ranged skill, like:

The L2 spear thrower.

Ah, yeah - I forgot that the Spear Thrower is instant, in contrast to the Archer which requires double-clicking (assign the skill, assign the direction). Since namida already ruled out the latter, skills like the Spear Thrower (and I believe also just the regular Thrower, which throws some kind of ball?) had completely fallen out of my radar.

The Spear Thrower would definitely also make more sense as a "Zombie-killer" skill, compared to the Hookshotter!

However, my main two arguments against it would be:

1) The amount of versatility the Slider promises to add seems hard to beat. While the Slider, as you said, wouldn't add anything completely new (which can also be a benefit, btw, as it's easier to understand for new players and will fit in more organically with the existing skills), the interactions with Jumpers, Shimmiers, Climbers etc. and just the challenges arising from turning the lemming around as needed promise countless amounts of new puzle potential.

2) This "who says A must also say B" logic:

All in all, I would either aim for a (spear)-thrower or a bazooka/mortar skill and maybe even both to have the possibility for ranged terrain creation and destruction.

Similarly to the upward Digger / downward Builder discussion, this is another case where it would feel weird to have one but not the other. Why just distant construction, but not distant destruction? Or the other way round?

You also seem to already plan to some extent how distant construction and distant destruction could interact:

Thinking about it more I can even see combinations with destructive skills that make a tunnel through which the projectile can then fly through.

But since we pretty much know there's only going to be a single further skill, this feels a bit like using the "foot in the door" technique on namida, or, as expressed in German, "wanting the entire arm when somebody hands you the little finger". Meaning: Requesting yet another favour after having already received one.



The thing is: For the longest time, I thought new skill additions would just outright end after the Jumper. Now we seem to agree that 20 is a nice number to round out the skill panel, so that is already a pleasant surprise for me, because it means one skill more than expected.

Thus, if I were namida, I'd be hesitant about agreeing to skill suggestions that kind-of have a potential follow-up skill already built-in by design.

This is obviously not something I merely say to "discredit" your suggestion, because it affects one of my suggestions (upward Digging / downward Building) equally.

It's just that I have pretty much moved on from this initial suggestion of mine, and even from my personal pet skill that is the Laser Blaster, because other people have successfully convinced me of the Slider's puzzle potential.



Although I must admit that this

I just had a thought. In my Hookshotter proposal, I suggested (just as an idea, not as an essential part of the skill concept) that the lemming should fire in the direction of motion: forwards normally; upwards during the Shimmier's "reach"; diagonally upwards while jumping.

How about applying the same direction-choice mechanic to the Laser Blaster? That would give us multiple directions without requiring another player action, and give the skill a bit more versatility

sounds quite interesting when it comes to the Laser Blaster.


But if I had to choose, I'd still go with the Slider over the Laser Blaster. The Laser Blaster is so different from anything else that it's more like something a different person than namida might pick up eventually - let's say the introduction of the Jumper sparks Nepster's interest again and he decides to take over after the 20th skill has been implemented. Probably a bad example, I know, because my guess is that Nepster would be much more reluctant (and also slower) than namida when it comes to adding new things in general.

Either way, if NeoLemmix development indeed stops for all eternity, after version 12.11 that adds the 20th skill, if that skill is the Slider, it would also be fine - because the Slider doesn't implicitly "demand" the introduction of yet another skill as its counterpart. Whereas both the upward Digger / downward Builder and the Spear Thrower / Bazooker duality kind of do.

The Quarantiner. A counterpart to the Attractor, this skill pushes every lemming behind himself back, creating the same distance between himself and the next lemming as between that next lemming and the lemming after that, and so on. That distance is equivalent to the maximum spawn interval a level with a single hatch can have.

Thanks for the explanation, Proxima!

Indeed I have used such a structure on my Pit Lems level "Making your mine up".

The problem is that steel can be abused to cancel Miners. There may be opportunities where you want to enforce the use of a Miner rather than a Digger, but without providing an easy way of cancelling that Miner once it has been assigned.

The only way for me to work around this cancelling effect was to additionally cover the edges of those steel pieces with on-terrain fire objects... but that's kind of fiddly and ugly at the same time.