Resolved the levels that have changed. For future reference, make sure to make a new post anytime there's an update, because if you just edit the OP, there's a very good chance that people won't know that an update dropped. On the homepage, the site does not notify that a post has been modified, only if there's a new post. I just happened to check the topic and noticed the last edit that was made to the OP a few hours ago.

Also, while not required, a changelog of what actually changed in the levels would be great as well. This can be great for bookkeepping, especially for the designer so that he/she can see how many versions a particular level has gone through, as well as provide some guidance in helping a level maker improve with future levels I've only made 3 levels myself so far, particularly since I prefer to solve rather than make levels, but I find changelogs very helpful for every update I released for my levels, and will definitely be using/providing them if I ever end up making a level pack in the future.

Level 1 & 2 - These should be intended now.

Level 6 - How's this solution?

Level 7 - Still remains the hardest of these 8 levels. This one took a while. Even then, this solution feels somehow not intended.

Level 8 - It's pretty much the exact same solution, except one really needs to send out the climbers very closely spaced to one another. Definitely don't feel that levels always have to finish with just a second left. If anything, this will often cause players to rage just because they have to keep on rewinding to find the right timing. Yes, NL may have rewinding and framestepping, but these aren't the main reasons why time limits should be used. Most importantly, don't feel surprised if some of the experts here tell you to cull the timer on this level, as it really doesn't eliminate any glaring backroutes at all. Not that I see, anyway. Whereas for me, I already mentioned that I don't mind time limits.

Quote from: Dr. Slater on April 27, 2021, 08:18:28 PM
Actually, all but one level originally had time limits during development. When the RR is locked at 99 I don't think setting a time limit hurts either

Definitely nothing wrong with this, just keep in mind that the experts and almost anyone will tell you to "cull the timers" on those levels, as they don't add anything or eliminate any backroutes in these 3 levels specifically. I'm one of the few who doesn't mind time limits, so they're fine in my eyes, but the majority of the people will say to take out the timer.

Quote

Spoiler

I understand your reasoning, but many of my levels, as well as others I've found in this comunity, rely heavily on features like skill shadows and frame-by-frame steps. It would've been a hopeless level in the original game, but given the nice features of NL it works out fine, IMO.

I would still ease the precision and provide more leeway, as even with skill shadows it's still quite difficult to tell at a glance whether one has placed the builders correctly until you let the lemming fall. Or at least provide floaters so that you don't have to widen the gaps.

Again, these are great puzzle ideas and not a bad attempt at a first pack/demo, but there's certainly some room for improvement. I definitely can see that the eventual pack has great potential! Enjoy your stay here and feel free to ask for some assistance should you ever require it. Thanks again for sharing your short demo

Hi Dr. Slater,

Welcome to the forums! I finished solving your demo pack. Here are my replays. This is not a bad attempt at a first pack so far. However, there are some peculiarities that I've noticed. For example, the color of the builder bricks don't match what they're normally for a tileset. On all levels, they all default to a dark brown-greyish color and anytime a lemming lays down a brick it's a purple-pinkish kind of color. I found this odd. Whereas, in fire tileset levels, the builder bricks should be blue, etc. Similarly, the color of the OWAs are not the default in level 7. I think they're supposed to be yellow? Certainly a much better color than what they are currently on the wall in that level. Maybe you did some theme mixing or something? I'm not sure.

Whereas for the 8 levels you currently have, definitely some great ideas/puzzles here. This demo seems to indicate that you are aware of the standard of not having time limits on levels unless they're to block backroutes. I certainly don't mind time limits, as I'm kind of a traditionalist when it comes to the game, as well as how I love numbers/math. However, there's absolutely no reason for them on the first 3 levels, especially since the RRs are locked and you're always guaranteed to finish on time.

In my opinion, level 5 was the hardest due to the very strict time limit. I kept running out of time on several earlier attempts that would had worked but they unfortunately take several seconds too long.

Interestingly, I thought level 2 was impossible, but turns out that I didn't go about the level correctly. It's extremely tight on the timing, although

Spoiler

I love how the miner is used just for delaying purposes until the exit unlocks and he can exit

I like the concept in level 3, but the execution is very annoying, particularly since the builders have to be pixel precise and on the dot. I would advise widening the spacing between the bars to make it clearer and also to provide some leeway in the skill assignments.

Among the non-timed levels, level 7 was my favorite It was also a difficult level, and somehow I feel my solution isn't intended, especially since I have a builder leftover.

Finally, I'm almost certain that my solution to level 6 is a backroute, and somehow I feel my solution isn't quite intended in level 8 as well.

Once again, not a bad attempt at a first level pack and I look forward to seeing the full release of the entire pack in the future This does raise a few questions, though.

How many ranks and how many levels per difficulty are you planning?

What exactly is this pack about? I know you already described a bit of it, but a more detailed description would be nice. It's great that you provided some pics of some levels that are/will be in the pack These certainly help in possibly getting more people to play the pack. For examples, you can look at the level pack release topics on the NL levels board. 

Hey doogle,

It's already been done a long time ago https://www.neolemmix.com/?page=music_packs

Still no luck with Gear World 7. Since Armani has been able to solve it, that indicates the level is indeed possible (of course tan x can also confirm since he's the author of the level) with the given skillset (3 climbers, 1 jumper, 3 stackers, 3 builders, 1 glider, and 1 miner) and hence I'm likely missing something really obvious or probably some very advanced technique that's preventing me from solving it, as the best I keep doing is a lose 1 solution.

Spoiler

I realized that a lemming has to climb out the left side via jumping, as there's just not enough time to finish the level otherwise. Also, at least 1 lemming keeps slipping by before the staircase to the wall is done, and hence the best I keep on doing is a lose 1 solution.

Honestly, I'm just at a loss as to what else I haven't yet tried, but I will keep trying. Guess I just need to take a break from the level/pack. I could just watch the replay or ask tan x for a hint, but that's just not me when it comes to level solving in Lemmings, as I like to figure out levels for myself. At least not before I have solved the level myself. I only watch after just to compare.

Here's hoping I can get myself unstuck sooner rather than later 

Hi Nessy,

I assure you that I will look at your sequel pack soon, as soon as I can finish up the new LemRunner pack. Though, seeing how I've been stumped very badly by Dexter's and tan's pack, not sure how long that will take. Perhaps I should consider just moving along and coming back to the level I'm stumped on later just so I'm not holding up the LP, but I'm not in a rush to plow through it. I could just ask them for a hint or even view Armani's replay, but that's just not me when it comes to solving Lemmings levels.

I guess it's a good thing I'm not yet LPing Destination, since it sounds another update is due to drop soon. I'm sure I'll like it as much as I did Lemmings Migration. That reminds me. Did you still have plans to comment on my solutions to your Migration levels on my videos? You mentioned it back in November, so I just want to know if you still planned on following through with it. If so, I look forward to them

I know we diagnosed this the last time, but I'm going to go ahead and attach the NL log just to see if there's anything else that can be done. So it's clear  that NL is trying to access the url mentioned in the text file if both online features are enabled. I still have no idea why the long pause is still happening in 12.11. I just decided to enable both again after having only the online update check enabled for months. I also remember the problem going away all of a sudden, but I think it simply started happening again once I rebooted my laptop. 

Haha thanks for the kind words! Indeed, when I give hints, I always do it in such a way so as to not spoil any of the solution and still allow the player to figure it out for him/herself, as my goal is to help players improve their solving/critical thinking. If I ever end up making a level pack, you can expect this same hint system I've been using

As I suspected, the end part was the major stumping point for Arty, as that is the part that players have trouble with on Encore 37. Also as you mentioned, the difficulty is from the puzzle being difficult itself, not the execution. He asked me to confirm if he had everything up through the upper right corner correct, for which I answered in the affirmative. Well, he replied just now saying that he literally solved the level seconds after replying asking for confirmation, and even then I simply copied/pasted the hints from the spoiler above to my reply on YT and asked how he can use the remaining skills to get the level solved. Here, I was confident that he would be able to figure it out from there, all while I still didn't give anything away, but as it turns out my reply wasn't needed, as he had solved it shortly after he had replied

Well, congrats Arty on solving Encore 37!    

Quote from: 92Dexter11 on April 21, 2021, 10:22:44 PM
Hi kaywhyn!

Thank you so much for your kind words! I'm glad you liked our levels, especially Excavation (that one's a personal favourite of mine!)
My brother and I are both thrilled by your let's play pack, it feels so entertaining to see another person work their way through our levels

Hi Dexter,

Thank you for your kind words in return I'm more than happy to share aloud my thought processes on how I approach level solving with my LPs. Indeed, these seem to be a huge hit with the community, as everyone who has responded to the poll in my topic here https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5180.0;viewresults have indicated that my LPs have been a joy to watch. Since that has been the case since I put up the poll several months ago, I thus continue to do LPs, so long as they're a joy to watch and I continue to enjoy myself doing them, which I am

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You did manage to discover several backroutes! Your solution for Ziggurat, Waste not want not and What goes up are actually backroutes (we addressed this in the last update), and there are a couple of backroutes in your gear solutions too, that we're already working on fixing.

Regarding the Jungle World, that's because the solutions you see in them are version 1.0. I'm well-aware that several of them have been updated for v2.0, I just keep going with the pack until I get through it. I might just tack on the changed levels at the very end of the LP. Everything else including Jungle World 10 and after are version 2.0.

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As for Lemdiana Jones, it's intended to be very difficult, which is why it's the final level, but neither of us realised it would be so hard.
We honestly had no idea that this level would cause so much trouble, as Jungle world is supposed to be the easiest rank (in fact I considered placing Riddle of the Ancients at position #10, and having Lemdiana be the secret level, but decided that Lemdiana would be easier than Riddle. How badly I was mistaken! )
That being said, your solution is actually a backroute! We'll be releasing a solution pack, shortly, as well as a final updates pack to fix a few issues.

My solution to Lemdiana Jones is still a backroute in v2.0 even though I used all of the skills? Interesting. It's likely the way I solved it that caused me to not like it as much since I did note that my solution uses a lot of pixel precision. A lot of things kept failing by a single pixel or I kept being a skill short.

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Thank you so much for taking the time to play our pack! We really appreciate it, and we're looking forward to the rest of your LP!

Now I have a new roadblock, which is Gear World 7. Hence why you and your brother haven't seen any new videos from me for almost 2 days. Again, not asking for a hint, I will keep trying. So far, the best I've done is a lose 1 solution on a save all level. Difficult level this one is. Not sure if I'm overlooking something really obvious that I haven't tried yet. So close, yet still so far from the end of the rank

Hello tan x/Dexter,

I've finally managed to solve Jungle World 10, as well as Jungle World 11, and hence solved the entire first rank. Here are my replays for Jungle World. Also as promised, here is the link to my LP of your guys' level pack https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJuTl9UeUQB13QQBlZHAcKTn Enjoy!

General Remarks on the Pack So Far

Wow, these levels are quite tough, but I'm enjoying what I've seen a lot so far. I kind of expected that, especially since I've seen both the Chalkboard demo and Renaissance Lemmings. My favorite levels in the Jungle World rank were Jungle World 3 - Ziggurat and Jungle World 6 - Excavation The latter in particular is difficult, but it has such a great solution The former isn't as difficult, but I really love how the solution comes together and what needs to be done in order to keep the crowd and pre-placed neutral safe.

For Jungle World 10, sorry to say it, but the fact that things kept failing by a pixel or I kept being a skill short made me not like the level as much as I should had. It normally takes a lot before I rage at a Lemmings level, and this happens to be one of the few that did manage to get me to rage. It's a really nice challenging level and all, but all the precision that's needed made me think otherwise. I ended up solving the original version before I solved the update version you see in the LP, as I wanted to figure out the first version as well since I couldn't solve it for a while. I saw that an extra jumper was given, as well as some kinks in the wall on the right, and I thought even with an extra jumper it's still not that easy for me. However, the solution involves something that I might had already been aware of, I just never fully realized it.

Spoiler

Stackers actually place the stack a pixel lower once a digger is digging nothing away. Thus, I had rejected going underneath the wall way too early and instead kept trying to get to the other side up higher, which of course resulted in me wishing I had one more digger. Not sure why it took me so long to realize this and to finally solve it, but I finally managed to do it

Some level feedback:

Spoiler

Jungle World 1 - Welcome to Jungle World Nice, somewhat challenging level to start off the pack

Jungle World 2 - Encore This one was a bit difficult, but it's really just the timing that's hard. The solution is simpler than it appears.

Jungle World 3 - I actually learned something new here, and that is I didn't know that neutrals can interact with buttons. Now that I think about it, I guess it makes sense, since they can interact with traps/exits, so therefore they aren't excluded from buttons. I really like the puzzle of figuring out how to get the neutral out from being stuck in an endless loop between the wall/one-way force field, as well as getting the button to the left of where the neutral starts. Figuring out the bottom level is tricky, but quite a nice one.

Jungle World 5 - The two towers Looks quite intimidating with the extremely wide gap, but it's actually not that hard. Cloners FTW Though, I didn't like how in the end I kept failing by a pixel. I also have a glider leftover.

Jungle World 7 - Shibboleth This one was also difficult, but it's a really nice level. The bombers to free the neutrals are a bit precise, but I like how you need to release them so that they all walk to the center except for one which will go to push the buttons.

Jungle World 9 - Entrapment This one was also difficult for me. I'm sure this is a backroute, though. Certainly the hardest part seems to be to make sure no one bunches up due to the one-way force fields.

Jungle World 11 - Riddle of the Ancients I understand that this wasn't originally part of the initial pack release, as this was a secret level. Now it's the final level of the rank. Didn't take me as long as I thought it would. I don't think this is intended, though?

I will continue through the rest of the pack later on! Overall, great job so far and I'm enjoying the pack a lot. Very challenging levels that are satisfying to figure out and solve. I'm also aware that some levels have changed in the meantime, but luckily I was only on the Jungle World rank by the time the second version of the pack was released. For this, I might just simply tack on the resolved solutions of the Jungle World levels that changed at the very end of my LP. Meaning, the levels you see in the LP are from the 1st version. Generally, I don't go back and resolve updated levels if an update happens while my LP is in progress. Again, as I said before luckily the only levels I need to resolve are the Jungle World ones, as I was stuck horribly on Jungle World 10 by the time the second version of the pack dropped.

Quote from: Colorful Arty on April 18, 2021, 12:28:11 PM
Welp, I have hit a solid brick wall in the Encore rank, and that brick wall's name is "Here comes the flood". No matter what I do, I swear you are one skill short of solving it.

The worst part is I remember struggling heavily with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. However, I do not remember if I ever solved it, nor do I have a replay of the solution that works on this version of the level. I always end up with the lemming who gets all of the pickup skills unable to reach the exit due to climbing left and into the ghostbuster trap. I either need one extra destructive skill to free him, or one extra builder to avoid the trap. I don't see any way through it.

A hint would be most appreciated, as this level I will be solving off-camera.

Ah, yes, Here Comes the Flood. If I'm not mistaken, this was originally earlier in the Moist rank in Lemmicks, but Strato ended up moving it to near the end of the rank because of how people have said that it was too hard for its position. Indeed, this sounds to have been the right decision to move it further down the rank and hence it's near the end of the Encore rank in LWT. Honestly, I didn't have too much trouble with this level when I played it in Lemmicks. It sounds like you're using a skill incorrectly somewhere (I'm guessing it's the cloner) or you're not sure what to do with the skills you have left. Without seeing your LP, I'm not sure which it is. Indeed, I just watched Flopsy's LP of Lemmicks and he wasn't able to solve the level himself.

Anyway, here's a hint(s):

Spoiler

Remember that the cloner comes in real handy for overcoming being a skill short! Also, remember what happens to a lemming when he hits steel with a destructive digging (basher/miner/digger) skill.

My solution to Crane's most recent version of Denial. I somehow think this isn't quite intended

Quote from: Proxima on April 17, 2021, 02:52:08 PM
I apologise if it was upsetting. I'm actually extremely squeamish myself, and to this day I not only won't use the icicle trap, I make sure I never have to watch it happening.

Not your fault at all. Curiosity killed the cat and I wanted to see if it was indeed a trap and if it is how it kills a lemming. It's far gorier than I thought it would be. Fortunately, the bloody body is not left on the screen, it will disappear after a few seconds. Would had just been easier for me to use CPM to confirm that it's a trap, but even then I think I would had still let a lemming walk into the trap trigger to see what happens

Quote from: LemSteven on April 17, 2021, 02:08:00 AM
Believe it or not, one of the games that spooked me early on was Lemmings!  It was smooth sailing until I hit Fun 17, and then those hidden crusher traps scared the living daylights out of me.  Maybe that's why to this day I abhor traps of any kind, especially hidden ones.

Interesting. I think for me it was actually Havoc 1 that made me afraid of hidden traps even though I kind of vaguely remember encountering them first on Fun 17. Even moreso since the icicle trap results in blood/gore coming out when it kills and slices a lemming in half, for which I'm not too much of a fan. Perhaps the goriest custom trap I've seen so far was recently in my LP of David's The Lemmings Have Grown pack on Marathon 1. I think you'll even get to see it get triggered in the LP video. The trap is clearly visible, but curiosity definitely killed the cat here and hence I just wanted to see what would happen if a lemming gets killed in the trap. To be fair, the level's in a tileset for which I have never ever played any Lemmings levels in and hence I'm not familiar with any of the traps or objects at all. Then again, it is the only Prince of Persia level in the entire pack and hence the only level in such a tileset I have played thus far as far as custom Lemmings level packs are concerned. They might even be custom additions by David's to Proxima's tileset. I'm not sure.

Turrican's level V4 resolved. 1 stacker leftover. Almost the same solution as last time, just without the long waiting game.

Ah, that's a bummer. Kieran's probably the likely person who might be able to answer for you, either because he has levels in the pack for which he can test and see, or he might be able to quickly put together a level and check. Possibly the people who streamed (Simon and Geo, I think?) the pack from about a month or two ago can also answer