[+][PL] Preview Screen text - type casing, colours, info, etc.

[Simon]

CE 1.1.2

This is a minor typesetting bug. All presented information itself is correct.

Go to a preview screen of a level that has exactly 1 regular lemming and exactly 1 zombie. It will say: "1 lemmings, 1 zombies".

The issues here are:

• Both "lemmings" and "zombies" should be singular. This is usually excusable ("found 1 files" is fine for me) but NL already has code to handle singular/plural in this line. For example, NL will say "1 lemming" when the zombie is missing. It's a bug proper.
• The words "lemming"/"lemmings"/"zombie"/"zombies" should all be title-cased, i.e., the first letter should be capitalized. Everything else on the screen looks like it has proper title case.

The exact rules for title case can vary. I believe I use: Capitalize the first letter of every word unless the word satisfies all of the following: It's a preposition/article/some other niche type, it's not the first word of the phrase, it has 4 or fewer letters. If you're unsure, ask Proxima. Or ask me, but I'd have to find a style guide first.

Neutral lemmings can also appear here; the same fixes should apply to neutrals.

Proxima and I decree title case important! Lest our monocles plunge into our champagne classes, splashing our tailcoats.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

As I mentioned during one of your streams, the inconsistency ("20 lemmings" but "20 To Be Saved") bothers me, especially because this is something that was introduced in NLCE and is fine in vanilla NL.

But considering that nothing in the level stats is a title of anything (except of course for the level and rank titles), maybe it would be better to lowercase everything and capitalise only the first letter of each line (except when it's a number)?

And while we're looking at the preview screen, I prefer NL's uncluttered screen, with no release rate and no "Infinite Time". (Time limit should be pointed out when there is one, but this is very rare in NL.) Why were these changes made in CE, and was there ever a discussion?

[WillLem]

Go to a preview screen of a level that has exactly 1 regular lemming and exactly 1 zombie. It will say: "1 lemmings, 1 zombies".

This is now fixed. I've also capitalized the 'L' of 'Lemming(s)' for now to be consistent with everything else:



Fixed in NLCEPlayer commit 53f667d.

We can re-think the capitalization for sure. I'd suggest that we either capitalize every word, as in the above screenshot, or don't capitalize anything. Open to other suggestions.

But considering that nothing in the level stats is a title of anything (except of course for the level and rank titles), maybe it would be better to lowercase everything and capitalise only the first letter of each line (except when it's a number)?

Agreed, this could work.

I prefer NL's uncluttered screen, with no release rate and no "Infinite Time". (Time limit should be pointed out when there is one, but this is very rare in NL.) Why were these changes made in CE, and was there ever a discussion?

The changes were made mainly for 2 reasons:

1) Simply, to show the player more information on the preview screen.
2) Preview screen text color can now be customized on a per-line basis (using data/ce-textcolours.nxmi). Recoloring each line does make it look a bit less cluttered and easier to read (possibly why it was done this way in the Amiga version).

IIRC, there wasn't a discussion about this specifically. Looking back over the roadmaps/release topics, I don't think it got mentioned either, so apologies for this - it's a genuine oversight. I ported Preview Screen text creation over from SLX when implementing the ability to customise the text color (something that was previously specifically requested for NL), and I prefer the SLX refactor because it's a lot easier to deal with.

Anyway, discussion around Preview Screen text can begin here in this topic, or we can create another one. Of course, it should represent what the majority of the community wants. For now, consider it a demo feature whilst CE is still relatively new.

I feel I should also re-affirm at this stage that nothing that gets implemented in CE is final. Everything is open to suggestions, re-working, and possible removal after the fact if necessary. CE is not a 'WillLem project', I just happen to be the only dev on the Forums who has the time/inclination to take it on. If you don't like something, post a topic and we'll sort it out as a community. What I'm not prepared to do though is post a million topics about every little change and await feedback on every single one before actioning anything. That would be a recipe for nothing getting done. Better to keep development moving and respond to feedback on features already implemented IMHO.

[Dullstar]

I'm neutral regarding the presence of the extra information, though I will note that if we're going to include Release Rate, when the Spawn Interval setting is enabled it should probably respect it.

[WillLem]

if we're going to include Release Rate, when the Spawn Interval setting is enabled it should probably respect it.

I thought I'd already done that tbh. It's defintely done now anyway (NLCEPlayer commit a41d895).

I've always thought that having an extra line for 'X to be saved' is a bit redundant. We could eliminate that line by simply saying 'Save X of X lemming(s)', and then post an additional line if the level contians neutral and/or zombies.

If we leave it as it is though, I agree with Proxima that 'To Be Saved' does look a bit odd; let's change it back to 'to be saved' instead. Here's a demo:



Since Release Rate and Spawn Interval often get shortened to 'RR/SI', it feels right to capitalise that line.

Meanwhile, 'Infinite Time' can simply not be shown if a level doesn't have a time limit. Then, we'll only show a time limit if there is one.

Also, here's the same screenshot as above but making use of different line colours. IMO this looks much less cluttered, but we could perhaps re-think which line has which colour:



Thoughts?

[Guigui]

Quick thoughts that come to mind.

Is no time limit better than infinite time ?

The color for spawn inter is a bit too flashy, it makes this info stand out too much.

I'll leave the capitalization to English expert, but also asks the question of spacing around the : character.
In France it is one space before and space after.
Author : Anonymous

The flashy color can actually be used for the time limit when there is one, because this info should stand out.

[Simon]

TitleOfLevel
PositionOfLevel
Other stats
Other stats
Author: NameOfAuthor

Maybe reorder the lines to shorten the word "Author:" to "by" and even omit the colon?

TitleOfLevel
by NameOfAuthor
PositionOfLevel
Other stats
Other stats

Title, author, and position/pack/... fit well with each other. I think of levels as "Level X by Y from pack Z". Some seem to think of levels as "Position N in pack Z by Y". Hard to say if author should be above or below the position. I care less for the position (I care more about the name), but others care about the position. I'd put author higher than position. If position ends up higher than author, reconsider "by" because it's not a position by an author; it's a level by an author.

If author is anonymous, you can hide the author line entirely. Or show it to prompt the designer to put a name? Hard to say. I'd hide it.

Time Limit: Yeah, consider to hide the entire line if it's infinite. That's the normal case. If you use color (unsure, weakly against but I'm largely neutral), then limited time should be the yellow line because the in-game time limit is also yellow. Consider fewer overall colors to make such a line stand out better.

Release rate/spawn interval feels irrelevant. I'd ditch that entirely. I believe it's a leftover from Lemmings 1 because Lemmix replicated that screen and nobody had the guts yet to cut it.

Maybe replace "N to be saved" by "Save N", but I feel I will be shred to pieces for such heretic chopping.

In France it is one space before and space after.
Author : Anonymous

That typesetting rule is specific to French. There is a certain merit to this rule to make the symbol stand out better. But it would be wrong in today's English, it would even look like a beginner's typesetting mistake in English.

Strict English punctuation can produce unclarity, too. Above, I wrote {"Save N",} instead of the rules-abiding {"Save N,"}. I deem it unnatural and ambiguous to pollute quotations in technical writing with punctuation from the unrelated outside level of speech.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Strict English punctuation can produce unclarity, too. Above, I wrote {"Save N",} instead of the rules-abiding {"Save N,"}.

The latter is only rules-abiding in American English.

[Simon]

I didn't know. Thanks!

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Is no time limit better than infinite time ?

I don't think so. I would much prefer to print 'Infinite Time' if the level has no time limit. However, this doesn't seem to be a popular opinion, and also...

The color for spawn inter is a bit too flashy, it makes this info stand out too much.
...
The flashy color can actually be used for the time limit when there is one, because this info should stand out.

Time Limit: Yeah, consider to hide the entire line if it's infinite. That's the normal case. If you use color ... then limited time should be the yellow line because the in-game time limit is also yellow.

Agreed, time limit should be yellow so it stands out better when present. Let's not use 'Infinite Time', then, as this shouldn't stand out.

shorten the word "Author:" to "by" and even omit the colon?

Agreed.

Title, author, and position/pack/... fit well with each other. I think of levels as "Level X by Y from pack Z". Some seem to think of levels as "Position N in pack Z by Y"

Agreed. 'Level by Author in Pack' makes more sense because we have several compilations available on the Forums, and many packs by singular authors feature the occasional collaboration level. Furthermore, the Author is written/read on a per-level basis anyway, so the UI should reflect this.

If author is anonymous, you can hide the author line entirely

I'm about 50/50 on this. Printing 'Anonymous' is redundant, but it may indeed prompt an author to include their name.

Incidentally, the latest NL Editor automatically populates the 'Author' field with the username from NeoLemmix/CE's settings. However, it's likely that not everybody will have the latest Editor.

Release rate/spawn interval feels irrelevant. I'd ditch that entirely. I believe it's a leftover from Lemmings 1 because Lemmix replicated that screen and nobody had the guts yet to cut it.

Strongly disagree. It is in fact the exact opposite: it was removed from NeoLemmix and I had the guts to put it back in!

Release Rate is a relevant level statistic and there's no reason not to print it on the Preview screen, not just for nostalgia, but also because it gives the player an idea of what to expect from the gameplay itself. We should also indicate if the Release Rate is locked (CE currently does this), and the preview screen is as good a place as any to display this information.

Maybe replace "N to be saved" by "Save N", but I feel I will be shred to pieces for such heretic chopping.

Agreed. 'N to be saved' is clumsy. It should be 'Save N of N Lemmings', with an extra line (if necessary) detailing how many Normals/Neutrals/Zombies there are. So, instead of:

4 Lemmings, 10 Neutrals, 53 Zombies
14 to be saved

It would be:

Save 14 of 67 Lemmings
4 Normal, 10 Neutral, 53 Zombie

EDIT: There may be an even less clumsy way to present this information, but I think we're on the right track.

I wrote {"Save N",} instead of the rules-abiding {"Save N,"}

In this context, putting the comma outside of the quotes makes much more sense, since the quote is a capsule within the sentence, and the comma is a separator. If I was an English professor, I'd award you 100% for your sentence!


Current proposal for Preview screen text:

[Image]
Title

by Author
Position
Save N of N Lemmings
(N Normal, N Neutral, N Zombie)
Release Rate/Spawn Interval N (Locked)
(Time Limit N:NN)

Lines/words in brackets are ommitted where relevant.

[Proxima]

'Level by Author in Pack' makes more sense because we have several compilations available on the Forums, and many packs by singular authors feature the occasional collaboration level.

The proposal at the bottom of your post doesn't include the pack name (unless you are proposing that the "Position" line should include this).

In fact, I think we should at least consider including the pack name somehow; "Taxing 4" isn't very helpful when many packs have a rank named Taxing.

The obvious solution is to structure the "Position" line as [pack]: [rank] [number]. However, there are two issues: what happens when the pack or rank name is long, and what happens for packs with more complicated structures?

(Possible solution: read the full tree and structure the line as [top-level folder]: [sub-folder]: [rank] [number], and allow this to go over two lines if necessary.)

If author is anonymous, you can hide the author line entirely

I'm about 50/50 on this. Printing 'Anonymous' is redundant, but it may indeed prompt an author to include their name.

I am not at all 50/50 on this. When a pack is single-author, the author's name doesn't need to be displayed on every preview page. The author can add their name on every level if they want, of course, but if they choose not to, the engine should not force them to. (If I were actively making levels at the moment, I would have complained about this very loudly before now.)

Incidentally, the latest NL Editor automatically populates the 'Author' field with the username from NeoLemmix/CE's settings. However, it's likely that not everybody will have the latest Editor.

No. If you want this to be a thing, take the username from NLEditorSettings; then for people who don't want it, it is obvious how to disable it.

Release rate/spawn interval feels irrelevant. I'd ditch that entirely. I believe it's a leftover from Lemmings 1 because Lemmix replicated that screen and nobody had the guts yet to cut it.

Strongly disagree. It is in fact the exact opposite: it was removed from NeoLemmix and I had the guts to put it back in!

It was removed by group consensus after discussion, so you shouldn't have put it back of your own accord without discussion.

And the reason for removing it is clear: it's clutter, and it doesn't give the player any meaningful information while still on the preview screen, because they haven't seen the level yet, don't know what skills they have, where the lemmings start -- nothing except a vague impression of the shape of the level. The release rate becomes helpful when the level is opened and the player can begin to strategise. The preview screen also doesn't need to show whether the release rate is locked, because the player can see this as soon as they begin.

Save 14 of 67 Lemmings
4 Normal, 10 Neutral, 53 Zombie

Zombies can never be saved, so 4 normal + 10 neutral + 53 zombie should be displayed as "Save 14 of 14".