[DISCUSSION] Regarding borderline NSFW content.

[namida]

Hi all,

We recently had an incident where a newcomer posted fan art that pushed the lines in regards to NSFW content - it featured a "drunkard" lemming who among other things was not wearing pants (but the genitals were censored with a black box), who also had a nose that closely resembled genitalia (this was not censored in any way).

Simon initially removed this image. After some discussion between myself and him, the decision was reached to restore it, but to put the image inside a ZIP file so that no preview is shown, and put a clear "not safe for work" warning in the filename. This was primarily due to my input; my reasoning being that we have shared content of a similar level between existing members before (for example, drawings that resemble - or occasionally, just outright are - dicks, in the Jackbox topics). Simon also noted when restoring it, that the image "is edgy, but is honest fan art".

As part of this discussion, the idea also came up that we should seek feedback from the wider userbase as to how to handle such material going forward.

I do want to clear up some things right here first: There's definitely going to be limits as to what we allow. Don't expect the site to ever have a "share your favorite porn videos" topic or anything like that - Lemmings Forums absolutely is not a porn site. However, when it comes to content where the primary intent is artistic and/or comedic in nature, rather than sexual, I'm much more open to - and personally, would prefer to lean on the side of - leniency, subject to such content being hidden behind NSFW warnings (ie: no image previews for attachments, so put them in a ZIP or similar; or if they're embedded, then put them inside spoiler tags).

How do other users feel on this subject? While higher priority will be given to the thoughts of long-time members, input from newer users will be considered as well.

[IchoTolot]

I would also tend to the leniency side here. Within reason of course!

In my opinion the intention should also be taken into consideration. A would rather let a "edgy, but is honest fan art" slide than something that aims directly at the spicy NSFW part.
Spoiler tags or including it in a zip are also a great addition here.

In other words: I would let a custom level that looks like genitalia or badly drawn jackbox stuff slide, as they primarily aim to be a bad joke. Explicit pictures that aim directly at the nudity or them being sexy/spicy not.

[Strato Incendus]

What about level packs? I created the naked lemmings sprites (of course, they have all their private parts pixelated by definition ). Plus, there are some suggestive terrain shapes. I remember you mentioning in one of your let's-play videos how one of your acquaintances were looking for p*nis shapes in level terrain. So I kind of went ahead and did that on purpose in a few select levels. Do my packs need an NSFW warning now?

[namida]

For now at least, let's assume no - I think there's a certain level of vagueness at which it's not worth worrying too much about. We'll see where discussion goes from here. (You can be assured that if the decision is made that yes, one is needed, you aren't going to be penalized in any way for not retroactively having one. We'll either just ask you to add one, or add it ourselves, and that's all.)

[Strato Incendus]

Thanks for the explanation!

[namida]

This does however raise the question of how (or perhaps, if) to define the cutoff.

The first thing to come to mind is "if it's specifically intended to look like it, rather than accidentally coming off that way". However, I'd also think that many things - such as Strato's examples - that would be described as "a deliberate attempt to make it look like something accidentally resembles it", are likely to be similar in vagueness and should be handled the same way; and I'm wary of making rules based on the intent behind the content rather than the content itself. (There can be cases where doing so is necessary; I don't feel this is such a case.)

Another thought to come to mind is "would it be reasonable to use this depiction, to try and show someone what the NSFW subject matter in question looks like?" However, this is very subjective - one person might think two lumps of dirt either side of the tall narrow piece is suitable for this purpose, many others wouldn't, and it seems a bit unfair to expect people to be able to judge their content to our standards (which might even end up not consistent with each other) on this.

Of course there's the option of "duck testing" / "we know it when we see it", rather than claiming (accurately or otherwise) to have any objective rule. Of course, enforcement would have to be very, very light-handed (outside of really blatant cases) in such a case - and we have to consider whether it might lead to people unnecesserially slapping the warnings on things, thus diluting the significance of them.

[namida]

I'm thinking along the following lines. Note that this is just a proposal at this stage, not confirmed rules. I'll probably also tidy up the wording a bit before making anything official, so while input on the wording is welcome too, I'd like y'all to focus primarily on the underlying intent.

General
- Staff discretion is final. The flipside here is that in borderline cases, staff should be lenient (ie: just edit in NSFW warnings and give the user a heads up; rather than issuing forum warnings or bans).
- Putting an NSFW warning in a topic title does not exempt posts in that topic from having to put NSFW warnings on applicable content they contain. (This is because there can be ways to end up in the topic without noticing the title.)
- An NSFW warning for content embedded inline in a post should be done by wrapping the content in a Spoiler tag. Make sure the spoiler tag header notes that the tag is hiding NSFW content.
- An NSFW warning for content in an attachment should be done by including NSFW near the start or end of the filename. If the file is a type that would usually show a preview (eg. images), please also put it inside a ZIP file (or similar) so that no preview is shown.
- An NSFW warning for an external link should be done by clearly putting "NSFW" before or after the link (on the same line; or the warning and the link (with nothing else) on two consecutive lines).
- Users are not expected to go to extreme lengths to verify that external links, don't in turn contain links to other NSFW material or never show NSFW ads etc. The users following these links need to be mindful of that external sites are usually outside the control of both this site, and of the user linking to the external site.
- To avoid doubt, it is not against the rules to put NSFW warnings on content that you personally believe counts as NSFW even if it does not count as NSFW by the site's standards.

The rules - Pornographic content
- Realistic pornographic content is prohibited under all circumstances, whether or not it is actually real.
- Unrealistic pornographic content (eg. drawings, non-lifelike CGI, clay models, etc) that is still clearly depicting that kind of subject matter, must have a purpose other than just being pornography (such as comedy or educational value) and must be hidden behind an NSFW warning.
- Things that vaguely resemble pornographic content (eg. a rock formation that kinda looks like a penis) does not need any warnings, even if it was intentionally made to look that way.

The rules - Gorey content
- Gorey content is only outright prohibited in extreme circumstances, in particular, where the content relates to real-world violence and is intended (either by the poster, or by the original creators of the content) to glorify or justify said violence.
- Realistic content that is more than mildly gorey (beyond the kinds of things you'd see in everyday injuries like minor cuts / scrapes / bruises) must be hidden behind an NSFW warning.
- Unrealistic content that is severely gorey (deep wounds, excessive blood, etc) must be hidden behind an NSFW warning.
- No warning is needed for mild stuff (such as the cartoonish gore in many Lemmings styles), or unrealistic moderate stuff.

The rules - Explicit language
- To avoid doubt, we continue to not give a fuck about explicit language (as long as it isn't being used to attack other users or engage in hate speech). You are welcome to hide explicit language behind NSFW warnings if you wish to do so, but it is not in any way required.