[DISC] How should the Lemming save count be displayed in the skill panel?

[WillLem]

SuperLemmix now displays the save count in red until the requirement is met, at which point it turns to green. This change was made because it's tidier and (potentially) less confusing that the negative-number display used in NeoLemmix.
--->

The save requirement is also now displayed on the window caption, for additional reference.


However, Flopsy brought to my attention that the caption isn't useful for those who play the game in Full Screen, also noting that there is now no way to know how close to the save requirement the player is during gameplay. Here's his comment from the SuperLemmix Welcome Pack topic:

it's more a problem with SuperLemmix itself because once the level has started, you don't know how much to save until the number turns green but until then, it's not obvious.

So, I'm opening this discussion up to get people's thoughts on the best way to resolve this.

Potential solutions:

A) Display X/Y rather than just X, where X is the number saved and Y is the requirement.

Pros: The information is always clearly visible (but does it need to be?).
Cons: Uses more panel space (which is already at a premium even with the extended display) and adds clutter.

B) Display the save requirement as a panel hint when this part of the panel (i.e. the hatch number) is hovered over. The hint could say "SAVE Y" where Y is the total requirement or "Z TO BE SAVED" where Z is the remaining number that needs to be saved.

Pros: Makes neat use of the panel hints feature, keeps the information accessible but inobtrusive.
Cons: Players might not be aware of panel hints, or might not have them activated.

C) Change the number itself when hovered over. As with suggestion B, the number could change to display either the total requirement, or the remaining number to be saved - this could even be optional, with both being available.

Pros: No panel clutter, keeps the information accessible but inobtrusive.
Cons: Extra coding work (wouldn't take long though, to be fair), and players might not be aware of the feature once implemented.

Suggestions/comments welcome!

[Simon]

Yes, this must be visible at all times.

Reason: It's the one and only goal! It's as important as showing the number of skills left.

The NL negative save requirement was already a hack to save space. We count up to 0, which is a win, then we count extra saves as positive. I don't remember why exactly I copied the NL design into Lix, I think it's also because of lack of space. It's a candidate for revisiting in Lix. I should user-test it with new players.

Your ideas B and C keep it invisible, and new players won't find it (mabye user-test this, but I'll assume it, sounds plausible enough). NL/Lix show it always, but it's not necessarily clear. Your idea A is the best. Thought experiment: You put this back in (e.g., as in idea A) and remove something else (to make room). You'll probably get complaints, but overall you'll get fewer complaints, the nastiness will be lower (of having something else removed and the save requirement back).

If you don't like A because of other reasons than the space, consider to reimplement NL's negative count.


If you don't like A because of the space: Random ideas for how to make room:

Print the number of yet-to-spawn lemmings directly on the hatch. You don't always need this information, but when you do, you'll look near the hatches anyway. This sounds interesting, as in, not like outright rejectable. I'm even thinking about printing it only when the mouse hovers over a hatch ... I don't want to make any final calls here.

Print the save requirement or the save count on the exits. Problem: This is bad (e.g., it's worse than printing the yet-to-spawn count on the hatches) because the save requirement is always important, not only when we scroll near the exit.

Exits close when you run out of time, and you print a big fat icon on the closed exits. It's natural to print the time limit onto the exits, then it's in the same place as the warning. Same (but weaker) problem as printing the save requirement on the exits.

Ditch the minimap and print the save requirement there. You've fixed the zoom bug, the minimap is less urgent to have now.

Create a second infobar at the top of the screen.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Yes, this must be visible at all times.
...
Your ideas B and C keep it invisible, and new players won't find it

Agreed, happy to brainstorm some other ideas.

Your idea A is the best.

It's my least favourite due to real estate, so...

Print the number of yet-to-spawn lemmings directly on the hatch.

Yet-to-spawn is indeed probably the first thing that could be removed from the panel. Active lemmings is more important, and also displays red when there aren't enough, which is useful information to the player.

A hatch count isn't out of the question; we already display one whenever a hatch has a cap, so... why not also do this when there is no cap? It amounts to the same thing, in terms of pure UI. Style creators can also create custom numbers to suit their hatches, if they wish. There is also the benefit of knowing how many lems are left to spawn per-hatch in multi-hatch levels, which could also be useful.

The only downside is more screen clutter (which could be mitigated by making it optional). Even so, this one's definitely worth considering.

I'm even thinking about printing it only when the mouse hovers over a hatch

Yes, this could also work.

Print the save requirement or the save count on the exits.

This I'm less sure about. It could be confusing because exits sometimes have caps and, by contrast to hatch caps, they necessarily are displaying different information (i.e. how many lemmings can exit here, as opposed to how many must exit).

It's natural to print the time limit onto the exits, then it's in the same place as the warning.

I'm open to displaying the time limit somewhere else, but probably not in the gameplay area. It's another thing that should always be visible.

Ditch the minimap

When this was last proposed, there was a 6:1 majority in favour of keeping the minimap. I doubt that preferences will have changed much in the meantime, so the minimap will stay for now. It can perhaps be revisited in the absence of a more suitable solution.

Create a second infobar at the top of the screen.

This could work. Or, perhaps, add another one to the panel area. Since the panel is now always hi-res, it may even be possible to make the text and icons slightly smaller (whilst maintaining - or even increasing - resolution) so that more can fit on.


Of the suggestions so far, a hatch number seems the most appropriate solution; we're used to seeing it anyway (in levels with hatch lemming caps), and it could easily be made optional if people would prefer a less-cluttered UI in favour of knowing how many lemmings are yet to spawn.

Here's another suggestion, whilst we're at the ideas phase:

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down. When the count reaches "0", the count then changes to green and switches to "80" (showing that the save requirement has been met), and counts up if any further lemmings exit, thus showing the grand total number of lemmings exited.

This might appear confusing at first, but I imagine that players would catch on quite quickly. SuperLemmix users (if there are any! ) are already used to seeing the save requirement in red whilst it hasn't been met, so it would maintain the current status quo to some extent whilst also keeping the display clutter-free.

Thoughts?

[Simon]

I agree that it's better to have the save count and the time limit always visible.

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down.

Don't rely on color alone. It's hard to guess what the colors mean. Red can mean stop or bad or loss or ..., but you want to convey "not yet".

Use icons. You can change or add icons when you win the level. Icons and color together is strong.

What exactly was confusing about the minus sign? Or was the flagpole confusing?

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we could display (e.g.) "80" in red, and count down.

Don't rely on color alone.

The idea isn't auggesting only to rely on colour. There are also numbers and an icon, both of which are clear enough.

The part of the idea I'd like to get feedback on is whether counting down first, then up once the SR has been met, is a good enough way to keep all the information on screen at all times without adding any extra characters.

So far, I think it is. It might at least be worth a try. The effectiveness of these sorts of ideas usually becomes apparent once people are actually using it.

Use icons. You can change or add icons when you win the level.

Good idea, worth considering. We still need to know how to display the numbers though.

What exactly was confusing about the minus sign?

e.g. The SR is 80. I've saved 89 lemmings. The display reads 9.

That doesn't make as much sense as the display reading 89, whether or not we know what the SR is.

[Proxima]

e.g. The SR is 80. I've saved 89 lemmings. The display reads 9.

That doesn't make as much sense as the display reading 89, whether or not we know what the SR is.

How about instead +9 to mean "9 above SR" and -9 to mean "9 below SR"?

[WillLem]

How about instead +9 to mean "9 above SR" and -9 to mean "9 below SR"?

It's the same sort of problem. It doesn't make as much sense as simply printing "89", and then changing the colour based on whether or not the SR is met.

"9 over the SR" doesn't mean all that much if the player wants to know the total number saved (say, for Talisman purposes) and there is nothing else showing what the SR is*. And even if there was, the player then has to calculate the total. OK, it's simple addition, but even so it's better UI to just print the total number of lemmings exited.

*In SLX, the SR is displayed in the window caption, but players might be in FullScreen.

[littbarski]

Hello,

I am a beginner after many years so I don't know anything about Neolemmix or Superlemmix in terms of developing and gameplay. But as I just saw this topic here, I think this is indeed something that is important, especially to beginners, but also in general for usability.

When I think of Lemmings and the counting, I would directly say that I would need
- how many are still in stock?
- how many are currently active?
- how many are already in the exit?

For me it would not make sense to show always the total number of Lemmings as a number that appears to be a counter (when you start a level you see how many Lemmings will appear). But what would be nice, and this answers perhaps your questions, is that you make the level goal appear in a part/part number.

So the row could be like:
--- Number still in stock --- Number currently active --- Number in exit / Number necessary in exit ---

Like (Example we need 10 in Exit):
--- 25 --- 5 --- 5 / 10 ---

Of course if many players like also the total number this could be just added at the left in addition:
---35 --- 25 --- 5 --- 5 / 10 ---

(so no special colors would be necessary)

[WillLem]

For me it would not make sense to show always the total number of Lemmings as a number that appears to be a counter

Ah, it seems there's been a misunderstanding here. Whenever I mentioned "total" in my previous post/suggestion, I meant the total number of lemmings that have exited, not the total number of lemmings available in the level from the start (which, of course, I agree wouldn't make sense to display as a counter since it doesn't change). I've now edited my posts to clarify that.

As regards to printing X/Y where X is the total number of lemmings that have exited and Y is the save requirement (SR), I'm trying to avoid that because it means adding additional characters on the panel, which is already at maximum capacity in terms of what can be printed to it. Consequently, in order for /Y to be added, something else would have to go. I'd strongly rather avoid this if possible.

The UI goals are these:

• Provide an indication of the SR, either as a fixed value (acceptable) or a changing value approaching the SR (better).
  
• Display the total number of lemmings saved (ideally at all times, but certainly after the SR is met)
• Keep the remaining panel display as it is (so, we keep hatch lems, active lems, and other panel items where they are currently)
• Don't add more UI if at all possible

So, I'd like some feedback on the following suggestion, in which I've attempted to meet all of the above goals:

As an example, we have a level with a SR of 80, and 100 possible lemmings to be saved.

Current SLX panel behaviour: The exit count starts at 0 and counts up as lemmings exit (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc...). The number is printed in red until the SR has been met, after which it is printed in green for the SR itself, and any subsequent exiters (80, 81, 82, 83, 84, etc...).

This is problematic because it doesn't indicate how far away the player is from the level's SR. And, although SuperLemmix prints the SR on the caption, not everybody will use the program in Windowed mode. And, even if they do, we want to avoid the player having to make calculations if possible.

So, we still need a way to indicate the SR.

NeoLemmix's solution to this problem is to print the exit count as a negative number. In our example here, it would display as "-80", and would count up as lemmings exit (-80, -79, -78, -77, -76, etc).

This is also problematic because, once the SR has met, it then counts over starting at 0 (0, 1, 2, 3, 4, etc...). So, it's not possible to see at a glance the total number of saved lemmings, which we should agree is an important number to display (reasons: talismans, challenges, and just because it's a useful thing to know in general).

Proposed solution:

Instead of displaying "0" and counting up as lemmings exit, we instead display "80" in red, and count down as lemmings exit (80, 79, 78, 77, 76, etc...).

When the count reaches "0", the count then changes to green and switches immediately to "80" (showing that the SR has been met), and then proceeds to count up if any further lemmings exit, thus showing the grand total of lemmings that have exited (80, 81, 82, 83, 84, etc...).

I accept some potential for confusion at first, but I believe players would catch on. I also believe this suggestion is the only one so far which fulfils all of the above listed UI goals, and so it's the idea I'm particularly interested in at present.

The only problem I can see with it is that it doesn't show the total number of lemmings saved before the SR has been met, but we sacrifice this to instead show how many more lemmings need to be saved to meet the SR. Even so, it could be argued that until the SR has been met, the latter of these is more important anyway.


Just to keep track of where I'm at with this, here's how I'd list the current suggestions so far, in order of preference:

1) The suggestion in this post (count down from SR in red until SR is met, then count up from SR in green for any subsequent exiters)
2) Current SLX behaviour, but also display SR when mouse cursor is over the exit count (either in-place or as a panel hint)
3) Current SLX behaviour (count up in red until SR is met, then count up in green for any subsequent exiters)
4) Current NL behaviour (display SR as a negative number which counts up to 0 when SR is met, then counts up from 0 for any subsequent exiters)
5) Display X/Y in the panel, where X is the total number saved and Y is the SR - for this, it will be necessary to displace the hatch number display (i.e. yet-to-spawn lems) and print it to the hatches instead, which is why this is so far down the list
6) Any idea that doesn't involve showing the total number of lems exited in addition to everything else mentioned

[Simon]

1) The suggestion in this post (count down from SR in red until SR is met, then count up from SR in green for any subsequent exiters)

This relies on color alone.

Consider the following two outputs:
(exit-icon) (number 57 in red)
(exit-icon) (number 57 in green)

The first means that you must save 57 more to reach the save requirement. The second means that you've already won, and that you've saved 57. Completely different meanings, yet you disambiguate only by color.

The only problem I can see with it is that it doesn't show the total number of lemmings saved before the SR has been met, but we sacrifice this to instead show how many more lemmings need to be saved to meet the SR. Even so, it could be argued that until the SR has been met, the latter of these is more important anyway.

Yes, your fundamental idea behind this is reasonable. Let's iron out the little complaints in your 1).

On winning, change the exit icon to a green checkmark, to go with the green text. (Or an exit icon with a big fat checkmark drawn over it.)

Reintroduce the minus sign in front of the 57. You haven't told me anything unclear about the minus sign yet. Your criticism about NL's display was that NL's positive count after winning was unclear/unhelpful, fine, you've addressed that; it's independent from the minus sign.

I'm still not convinced that red is the right color for "not yet". Use green after winning, sure, but before winning, find something else than red. You use yellow in the time limit. The time limit is also a restriction, but no absolute block from future winning. Consider yellow for the unmet save requirement.

Thus, on saving the 80th lemming, you'll jump between:
(exit icon) (yellow number −1)
(checkmark) (green number 80)

Now it sounds reasonable enough to try it. (And you've reserved the color red for the future, e.g., for absolute stuckage.)

-- Simon

[WillLem]

On winning, change the exit icon to ... an exit icon with a big fat checkmark drawn over it.

OK, this can be done 

Reintroduce the minus sign in front of the 57. You haven't told me anything unclear about the minus sign yet.

Two reasons why I don't want to re-introduce the minus sign:

1) It costs 1 panel digit; we're trying to conserve panel digits.
2) It looks untidy.

I'm still not convinced that red is the right color for "not yet" ... Consider yellow for the unmet save requirement.

How about a traffic light system? Red for 0, Yellow for 1 to (SR -1), Green for SR+

[littbarski]

hello again,

I did not know about the size / space restrictions in this row, so I suggested the number/number display.
But I still think it is nice to see directly: how many lems have I saved, how many do I need (still)?
Only thing that might work is:
- number of lems in exit from the beginning in YELLOW
- number of lems in exit after success (enough lems in exit) in GREEN
I would not work with red actually at all as red is always a warning color that you have made something wrong which is not the case here.

I also like the idea to change the exit icon (not the real exit in the level) to a green checkmark after success.
Although it not necessesary when you have the green number.

By the way when I look in Youtube and in my (latest) Superlemmix I don't find the numbers of both of the lemmings still to appear and those already active on the screen. Should this be added both? (would be good of course).

Sorry for the beginner's ideas and questions, of course I am not an expert and can't discuss much here, just wanted to answer once more.

[WillLem]

number of lems in exit from the beginning in YELLOW
...
I would not work with red actually at all as red is always a warning color that you have made something wrong which is not the case here.

I still think red for 0 (and negative numbers, in the case of a Zombie or a Rival entering the exit) is fine, so the first version of this feature will have numbers <=0 in red. Yellow can be used for 1 - (SR-1). This is a good compromise.

Potential problem: the display already uses Yellow in the "Active Lemmings" part of the display for when Neutrals are present:



Yellow for the exit number could, then, potentially be confusing. This is probably why colour alone isn't enough for making distinctions. EDIT: This has now been solved; we'll use Teal instead of Yellow for when Normals and Neutrals are present, and Blue for when only Neutrals are present

By the way when I look in Youtube and in my (latest) Superlemmix I don't find the numbers of both of the lemmings still to appear and those already active on the screen. Should this be added both? (would be good of course).

Left to right - The "hatch" number is the number of lemmings yet to spawn, the "lemming" number is the total number of lemmings active in the level, including zombies, neutrals, pre-placed, spawned, and yet-to-spawn; this will only change if lemmings are removed from the level (either by exiting or dying), the "exit" number is the number of lemmings that have exited:



You seem to be proposing that we should also display the number of active lemmings (i.e. spawned, possibly not including zombies). Is that correct?

[WillLem]

Quick update:

The Lemming count display is now Teal (rather than Yellow) when Neutrals are present in the level, then changes to Blue when there are only Neutrals present. Since Blue + Green = Teal, this makes more sense visually anyway.

(Implemented in Commit ac1e67d).

[WillLem]

Meanwhile, not about displaying a check mark over the exit icon. It looks a bit tacked on:



Maybe the exit icon could display greyscale until the level is completed. This is slightly better than using only colour, because the exit icon will also appear to "light up" due to the difference in brightness and contrast:

[WillLem]

OK, here's how the feature stands so far:

Traffic light colour system for rescue count (<=0 in red, 1 - [SR -1] in yellow, SR+ in green)
Greyscale exit icon for (rescue count < SR), green exit icon for (rescue count >= SR)

We still need to display the SR somehow, but this is a promising start:



Implemented in Commits 989397575 and 3ddf59e7e

[littbarski]

to answer about my post concerning the total number of lemmings active currently on the screen: as mentioned I don't expect my beginner's (or returnees) view to be seen as best, and if I think a bit about it I think I can get used to seeing only the total number of lemmings in the level (as given also in the level description) and this number stays the same until the first ones get into exit. It was just a bit strange to see a number showing the total active lemmings and it does not change although many lemmings are just appearing. But now I understood, and perhaps it's ok to use some thinking while playing lemmings .

But anyway, the more important numbers are certainly: how many do we need in exit and how many do we have alread there in exit. My feedback to the colors would be, why there are two different ones, grey and yellow, for the same thing = not yet achieved. Perhaps even both could be grey, the symbol and the number before achieving, and then both turn green. If there is not enogh space, then the negative number would be an option (which does not seem to be the most popular) and the easiest to recognize and understand (popular to me) would be the (in your example) 17/20...

[WillLem]

why there are two different ones, grey and yellow, for the same thing = not yet achieved

Well, technically, one is a different symbol; this is because Simon has pointed out that using only colour to differentiate two different things is bad UI. So, an alternative symbol is also used.

I prefer (greyscale exit > green exit) rather than (green exit > green exit with check mark); yes, it's relying on colour again (arguably), but the effect is that of the exit lighting up like a bulb. I'd say that's slightly different from just using 2 different colours (say, yellow exit > green exit).

I'll await feedback on this from Simon before going any further with it.

[Simon]

Hmm, the purple/cyan checkmark clashes with the green exit.

Attached is a variant. To make the checkmark stand out against the exit, I surrounded it with black pixels.

Remember our problem: You show different things (first how many more lemmings needed until we meet save requirement, then later the total saved), but you insist on positive integers for both, in the same position. This is unusual UI. To pay back such a mortgage, you need the clearest icon you can find. And it must be clear without knowing how the other state looks!

In this light, even the grey/green exit icon isn't clear enough to me. You have a lot of green elsewhere in the infobar, e.g., the lemming head and the hatch icon, and none of those mean that it's solved. Assume the player has never seen the grey house. What does a green house tell him? I'd say nothing, it's the blend-in color, all icons are green.

The extra clarity requirement is why I thought of the checkmark in the first place. It re-uses established symbology (to mean a solved level) from elsewhere in the program: You mark solved levels with a checkmark in the level browser. This begs the question: How strong is a checkmark alone, without an exit behind?

Or: What other icons scream "solved"?

Feel free to reject the checkmark on top of the exit (it's a busy icon after all), but consider how the UI will look after the change (from unsolved to solved) when the player hasn't observed the change (e.g., he didn't see the grey house, now the green house tells him nothing), and how it calls for extra clarity.

No final verdict on 17/20 vs. −3 vs. (unsolved exit icon) 3. I believe that it's really hard to beat the clarity of 17/20, and that littbarski is correct to push for 17/20.

-- Simon

[Simon]

Thinking more about alternative icons for the unmet save requirement.

The icon with the unadorned exit is reasonable, don't dismiss it too early. The only problem comes from the positive count next to it, which decreases. It doesn't count what's in the exit, even though the icon shows an exit.

An icon with a question mark, e.g., (exit house ?) sounds possible. It's a busy icon again. Is it even clear? It would look unnerving, as if the panel were warning you about a missing exit.

An icon with an arrow, e.g., (---> exit house), can mean that you should enter the house (desired meaning), but it can also mean that somebody has already entered the house. It's not as precise as I'd like. At least it refers more to the act of entering the exit (rather than to the lemmings inside the exit).

A goal flag. Hmmm ... Its main use is to mark a soon-reachable goal. The guy at the finish line will wave the flag for the race driver as the driver approaches. But the checkered flag has become a symbol for a goal without the nuance that it be reachable in the future. I don't have a strong feeling either way.

Crosshair icon. I had that in Lix 7 years ago. Instead of 17/20, I had (crossshair) 3. I eventually changed this to (exit house) −3, which I deem clearer because of the minus sign. The minus sign shows a debt that's hard to show with an icon.

-- Simon

[Simon]

yes, it's relying on colour again (arguably), but the effect is that of the exit lighting up like a bulb.

In 95 % of other places, indeed, you'll be completely fine with this dark/blend-in grey for off/no, and a light/contrastful color for on/yes/exists. Your choices of grey and green have plenty of contrast.

Here, it's about the two different semantics for positive integers in the same place. For this special requirement, I deem it not enough.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Attached is a variant. To make the checkmark stand out against the exit, I surrounded it with black pixels.

This looks good, I'm happy to trial this in the next update. I might try to make the checkmark stand out further by making it brighter, or by darkening the exit slightly.

you insist on positive integers for both

My preference is a simple counting up from 0 as lemmings exit; in light of the fact that Rivals and Zombies now count as (-1) towards the save requirement, I'm now thinking it wouldn't be a good idea to show it any other way.

So, from this point on, the idea of counting down from the SR can be scrapped. Seeing a Zombie exit and the count go up (which it would, under a count-down-from-SR system) would just be extra confusing.

I'm back to thinking that the best idea is to show the SR when the exit count is hovered-over; I'd like to try that alongside the checkmark exit icon and see if it's a satisfactory enough solution before overhauling the panel display any further.

In this light, even the grey/green exit icon isn't clear enough to me. You have a lot of green elsewhere in the infobar, e.g., the lemming head and the hatch icon, and none of those mean that it's solved. Assume the player has never seen the grey house. What does a green house tell him? I'd say nothing, it's the blend-in color, all icons are green.

Here I disagree, FWIW. The fact that everything else is green but the exit is grey says "something hasn't happened yet, specifically with the exit, because it looks different from everything else". Once the exit conforms to the others (by becoming green), it says "OK, all is done!"

If it were the other way around (so, the exit starts green and either changes colour or gains a checkmark later), the player has no information from the start to suggest that anything needs to be done with the exit, and any changes that occur at the point of reaching the SR could seem like an afterthought.

With that said, I'm happy to give the checkmark a try as stated above, and the exit icon will start green as before. Let's give that a try; we need to reach agreement on some of these points.

The extra clarity requirement is why I thought of the checkmark in the first place. It re-uses established symbology (to mean a solved level) from elsewhere in the program

Agreed, this is exactly why the checkmark is most likely the way to go. Let's try it and see what the feedback is, if any (and if none, we can assume that the problem is solved).

consider how the UI will look after the change (from unsolved to solved) when the player hasn't observed the change (e.g., he didn't see the grey house, now the green house tells him nothing)

By this argument, we should do both: grey exit so the player knows something is different before, AND checkmark so the player knows something is different afterwards. Otherwise, green exit before is telling them nothing.

I believe that it's really hard to beat the clarity of 17/20, and that littbarski is correct to push for 17/20.

I agree, but the cost is currently too high. Let's try other methods first and see if it's satisfactory enough.

The icon with the unadorned exit is reasonable, don't dismiss it too early. The only problem comes from the positive count next to it, which decreases. It doesn't count what's in the exit, even though the icon shows an exit.

Yes, this is in fact exactly the reason the count-down-from-SR idea is now scrapped, and you've also hit on the reason I intuitively dislike the minus display; I was struggling to put my finger on it earlier: it's far better to show what's actually in the exit. A minus sign makes me think there are (<0) lemmings in the exit...! Even though I know what it means actually, it still seems a wonky way to display the save count. Furthermore, since Zombies and Rivals count as (-1), (<0) lemmings in the exit can now actually happen, so it's better to reserve the minus display for this.


Current proposal

So, this post chased its own tail a bit, as there was quite a lot to reply to.

For clarity then, this is the current proposal for the save count display:

Exit icon will start (green), then go to (green + checkmark) when the SR is met; the exit might be made slightly darker, or the checkmark slightly brighter, to make this icon clearer.

The save count will start at 0, increase with each lemming saved, and decrease with each Zombie/Rival exiter (current SLX status quo). Red is used for (<=0), Yellow for (1 - [SR-1]), Green for (SR+).

When the user hovers the cursor over either the Exit icon or the save count, the SR will be shown (most likely in Blue) in place of the save count.

We sacrifice the SR being displayed at all times for the following reasons:

1) It's a static figure, so doesn't warrant use of limited panel real estate vs. other important figures which change throughout gameplay.

2) The SR is shown in the window caption if the player is using windowed mode; fullscreen players might then report not knowing the SR in-game, and can be informed about using the mouse-over-save-count-display method to see the SR. We accept that some users might never know, or might only discover the feature by accident; to mitigate this, we could show a message when switching from Windowed to FullScreen, and/or could add a note about it in the Welcome Screen for new users (I'm considering expanding this screen to provide more info anyway). "Hint of the Day" is also a thing; it's perhaps about time this was added anyway!

3) Ultimately, the cost of displaying the SR at all times is too high: we either have to sacrifice another important figure to be displayed in the gameplay area (messy, and renders these figures not-always-accessible), or have to print another row of UI somewhere (avoidable clutter). And, showing XX/YY doesn't look great when using the standard panel font anyway (I don't have a ready visual example of this, I'll come back and add one later).

[littbarski]

I probably missed this, but perhaps it would be useful to also include the other numbers in your summarizing proposal, so the number of lemmings available in total at the beginning in the hatch. Or was this also a number that is static and so not useful? (I would agree)

If we consider not showing the total number as a static one in its extra place, we could add another 17/20 idea there, too, so there would be the hatch symbol and then 17/20 showing how many of the total number is still in hatch until it gets 0/20. In this case you would always see the total number in the "0/20" and on the right always the SR in the "20/20" at the end.

I understand that this topic is about the SR, but one of the main discussion points here is the missing space, with the space discussion the total number in the hatch is automatically also discussed 

[Proxima]

I probably missed this, but perhaps it would be useful to also include the other numbers in your summarizing proposal, so the number of lemmings available in total at the beginning in the hatch. Or was this also a number that is static and so not useful? (I would agree)

I don't know whether SLX has changed this, but NL displays the number of lemmings currently available, which is not static -- it starts equal to the original number of lemmings available, and goes down when one dies. This is the most useful because you can immediately know without calculation* whether you have too few lemmings remaining to possibly meet the save requirement.

admittedly, some calculation is still necessary if there are cloners

[WillLem]

If we consider not showing the total number as a static one in its extra place, we could add another 17/20 idea there, too, so there would be the hatch symbol and then 17/20 showing how many of the total number is still in hatch until it gets 0/20

Just to be clear, none of the numbers being displayed in the panel are static; they are all numbers that change during gameplay, and have all been established as important values that players need ready access to. And yes, there are other values that players need ready access to, but we all seem to agree that moving numbers take priority over static numbers in the event that there isn't enough space for both.

The number of lemmings available from the beginning does not change, so isn't displayed. It would be a waste of space to put /Y, where Y is {the total number of lemmings available from the start}, particularly since these lemmings could be spread across multiple hatches, or in fact be pre-placed (rather than in-hatch) lemmings.

Ultimately, in order to fit /Y onto the display anywhere, we would have to either shrink the minimap, add another row of digits to the panel, or remove one of the other numbers being displayed. I might as well state clearly now that, after consideration, I don't wish to go ahead with any of those measures in order to display a /Y value on the panel, for any of hatch, active, or saved counts. Even if we agree it's important and necessary, there are some cases where it would take a total of 8 digits (e.g. "100/100 ") so it might not fit on even if we did (for example) remove the hatch number (which currently takes up 5 digits including the space after it). Besides, it just doesn't look particularly great either! Here's a mockup:



IMHO it just looks too big and clunky and clutters up the display. So, we need to find some other way of presenting the information; I think hovering over the digit to reveal the SR is a good enough solution for now, especially since SR has never been displayed on the panel, either in Amiga/DOS or NeoLemmix, and it's never really been much of an issue.

I don't know whether SLX has changed this, but NL displays the number of lemmings currently available, which is not static -- it starts equal to the original number of lemmings available, and goes down when one dies

Just to confirm, this is still the case in SLX:



This shows that there are 100 lemmings available in the level. It will stay at 100 as long as all of those lemmings are either in the hatch waiting to spawn or already active on screen.

When a lemming dies, exits, or becomes a zombie, the number decreases. If it reaches the point where there are no longer enough lemmings to complete the level, the number turns red (in this example, the SR is 95):

[littbarski]

thank you for clarifying this, I was indeed not sure about some things. But this shows also that this topic is important and not always easily understood by beginners or players who don't play the game often (just from time to time). When I watched some Youtube videos I always wondered why this one number does not go down. Of course now I understand better. It seems that I thought somehow that for the experienced players the number of lemmings currently active on the screen may be also important.

But from the simple user side a last comment: it would be certainly good to have help or hints windows, tooltip text or other information, but I always like it when you can then turn all of them off in the settings (so no popups, tooltips and so on).

I will not write too much here in this topic though, not because I don't think it is interesing or important, but as I don't have the knowledge to understand each single step of the discussion. Still it would be nice perhaps to see now and then an animated image of the total panel line with numbers to understand it better.

[WillLem]

tBut this shows also that this topic is important and not always easily understood by beginners or players who don't play the game often

Your feedback is very important and valuable; I imagine that many beginners/casual players who use our engines either don't take the time to post feedback, or (worse) give up altogether if they don't understand something about the program, or find something problematic.

Be sure, I take all feedback seriously and will action as much of it as I can if it's been agreed that it will benefit the majority of users. Of course, sometimes it's difficult to please everybody and compromises need to be made, but that's true of most programs.

it would be certainly good to have help or hints windows, tooltip text or other information, but I always like it when you can then turn all of them off in the settings (so no popups, tooltips and so on).

I've already implemented hover-over hints in all menus. In-game is more difficult, but I can find a way to achieve the same thing.

From this discussion, and others we've had in the past (e.g. how to cancel out of Replay mode!), it's definitely worth adding at least a "Hint of the Day" panel to the main menu, maybe even adding a user guide/manual to the main menu that can be accessed at any time (even in-game via a hotkey/button) and which explains all of the various features.

it would be nice perhaps to see now and then an animated image of the total panel line with numbers to understand it better.

Good idea. I could add some animated images to the manual, or perhaps link to video tutorials where necessary.

I'm going to go ahead and add this (in-game hints/manual) to the to-do list for 2.9, I think it's definitely worth implementing something like this once and for all.

[littbarski]

thank you - of course I will give my feedback, only I don't have too many new ideas at the moment and about the different displayed numbers of lemmings, I don't have enough experience to know what is important. By the way I even did not know that you can also play in windowed mode, I just start it and play in fullscreen - and like it, I would not have thought there is a need to switch in windowed mode at all. Hopefully the fullscreen will stay . But then of course those numbers given in the window above are not there.

So I only think, less is more and so too much color system and too much popups or tooltips (even as well too many icon changes) may be not clear enough. The numbers and their meaning itself have some kind of aesthetics. But as said this is not based on many hours of playing lemmings so perhaps I will just be more viewing here in this topic.

[WillLem]

OK, so... here's what we have so far:

The save requirement (SR) is now visible when mousing-over the exit icon and/or the lems-in-exit value:



The size of the mouse-over rectangle is also dynamically adjusted depending on how many digits the lems-in-exit value is. So, it won't randomly show the SR if the mouse is hovered over the blank space to the right of the digit.

And, I've replaced the greyscale -> green icons with green -> checkmark:



For 0 or less, the lems-in-exit count is red; for 1 to (SR -1), it's yellow; and for SR+, it's green.

Let's give this version of the save count display a try in the next SLX update and see if we like it. All things considered, I think this is the best overall solution.

Implemented in Commits 50ac9fda5 and f3528c060.


Also fixed a bug where the numbers were being nudged left whenever the count exceeds 3 digits (e.g. '1000', or '-999' for negative numbers). Now, all counts cap out at '999' ('-99' for negative numbers) - (Commit 179d8b12f)

The Editor has also been updated so that 999 is the maximum number of lemmings supported; levels can still be text-edited to have any number of lemmings, but the skill panel doesn't support more than 999 for display purposes - (Editor Commit 23ae5ee)

[littbarski]

Thank you for the work and explanation! I like it and I also think, if we look at the space issue, this is a really good solution. For me personally the checkmark is not necessary as it doubles the information, but of course it more obvious that way . As long as the user can change the icon as a file in the folder this is not a real issue after all.

[Simon]

By this argument, we should do both: grey exit so the player knows something is different before, AND checkmark so the player knows something is different afterwards. Otherwise, green exit before is telling them nothing.

Yes, sounds like a good idea. You've also made the checkmark stand out even brighter against the darker-green exit, that's good.

The save requirement (SR) is now visible when mousing-over the exit icon and/or the lems-in-exit value:

Now, whenever you show the save requirement, you hide the save count. Out of everything you have in the panel, the save count is the most important stat to see at the same time with the save requirement. You're forcing people to memorize numbers to compute what they want to know (how many more to save).

Assuming you must show the save requirement only on mouseover: Keep the save count visible. Hide the clock instead (when the mouse is over the save count or an exit), which sits on the right of the save count. Print the /Y in the space that you've freed.

If you're concerned with squishing numbers and slashes together: 1. Consider spaces on both sides of the slash (even though squishing together is the usual typography) and 2. Print the X/Y in two colors: X in yellow or green, and /Y in blue or green.

-- Simon

[WillLem]

Assuming you must show the save requirement only on mouseover: Keep the save count visible. Hide the clock instead (when the mouse is over the save count or an exit), which sits on the right of the save count. Print the /Y in the space that you've freed.

This would be a huge amount of work, mostly due to the way that the skill panel string is implemented. To some extent I agree this might be worth figuring out eventually, but for now I'd like to trial the feature as it is and see if it's sufficient.

Reasons:

1) The "/" character currently isn't part of the panel font, this would need to be added.

2) Overwriting the {clock + time} with {save count / SR + space} results in the {save count / SR + space} at least partially persisting after the re-draw (regardless of printing order). This is because the {string complete with icon} is initialized on first drawing the panel, and then only the digits are replaced after that with each re-draw. It might be easy to hack something together to patch this, but - ideally - extensive refactoring of the panel string would be in order to truly solve this one.

N.B. There is also the recently-implemented Amiga Theme to consider, which draws a totally different string featuring the word "TIME" rather than the clock icon. This further complicates any patching of the string post-overwrite.

3) Recolouring the individual parts of the string also isn't a trivial task, since the string might be offset 1 or 2 characters to the right depending on how many lems have been saved so far; the index then needs to be dynamically adjusted. Do-able, certainly, but doesn't seem worth it in addition to reasons (1) and (2).

4) The current mouse-over feature is actually quite neat as it is; it fits perfectly into the current panel's aesthetic and - more importantly - keeps the information accessible, albeit with the caveats you mentioned. Even if we did print X/Y though, players must still subtract X from Y to get the amount that they need to save; the only benefit is removing the need to memorize Y.

So, at present, I'd rather ask users to memorize Y and see if that's a good enough solution.