Level Design Contest #27 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix or Lix Player!

Lix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/9b4richjbp35ce0/Contest_27_Lix.zip?dl=1   

The Lix levels will then be in the single/Contests/Contest_27 folder!

NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/s/3zfkaut5i5nybrt/Contest_27_NL.zip?dl=1

Music (NeoLemmix): https://www.dropbox.com/s/afez2rbubrwx9un/Contest_27_Music.zip?dl=1


Rule 1 Levels

geoo's "Hanabi" (V2)
Simon's "Inside Your Router" (V1)
Armani's "Primitive Instinct" (V2)
IchoTolot's "Internecion Cube" (V1)
NieSch's "Tomb of Doom" (V2)
tan x dx's "Garden of Love" (V4)
The Tomato Watcher's "Demolishing Old Ruins" (V2)
WillLem's "The Instrument" (V1)
kaywhyn's "Stop Blowing Up My Construction Work!" (V7)


Rule 2 Levels

geoo's "The Last Shall Be First" (V1)
Simon's "Bumper Cave" (V1)
Armani's "Natural-born" (V4)
IchoTolot's "Skyfall" (V1)
NieSch's "Splash or Splat" (V7)
The Tomato Watcher's "Expediency will be ENFORCED" (V4)
kaywhyn's "Swim Team Rush" (V7)
WillLem's "Direct Drip (Contest Version)" (V2)


Rule 3 Levels

geoo's "Pommes Schranke" (V1)
Simon's "Rhizome" (V3)
Armani's "Clown Fiesta" (V1)
Crane's "Mincemeat" (V1)
IchoTolot's "Supreme LEMCO Safety Standards" (V1)
NieSch's "The Magic of Lemmings" (V4)
The Tomato Watcher's "Lemmings are Beans" (V2)
Silken Healer's "Jumpstone" (V1)
kaywhyn's "Hero Time Again?" (V6)


You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6104.0

Playing Phase will be closed on 31th of March!
Updates will close on 28th of March!

Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.

Link to update topic

[Crane]

Let the playtesting begin!

[NieSch]

Yeah, let's go! Good opportunity to find out about Lix for me.

[kaywhyn]

Hello everyone,

I have uploaded my R1 and R2. Check the update topic for them, as well as for the music tracks. I still need to make my R3, so hopefully another day or so it'll be ready, but when it is I'll upload in the update topic as well.

Looking forward to playing these levels and seeing replay solutions to mine!

[ericderkovits]

solved 6 of the levels

1) all of Tomato watchers levels including his version 2 of Rule 2
2) Niesch's Rule 1 and Rule 2 levels
3) WillLems'  Rule 1

[IchoTolot]

Hello everyone,

I have uploaded my R1 and R2. Check the update topic for them, as well as for the music tracks. I still need to make my R3, so hopefully another day or so it'll be ready, but when it is I'll upload in the update topic as well.

Looking forward to playing these levels and seeing replay solutions to mine!

Music + Levels included in the zips from now on.

[Simon]

Archive has replays for:
Expediency_will_be_ENFORCED v1
Expediency_will_be_ENFORCED v2
Mincemeat (twice, but similar)
Natural-born
Tomb_of_Doom
Splash_or_Splat

As loose files:
Pommes Schranke
Hanabi

-- Simon

[Armani]

I thought it was a good opportunity to give lix a try!

My first impression was that lix and NL are very similar so I got to enjoy it very much.
I especially had fun playing with runner skill.

I probably have found some intended solutions and backroutes.
I attached replays for all lix levels!

@Simon Not quite intended At least the end part is good! I will make an update soon.

[Simon]

Armani, all of Rhizome, Inside Your Router, Bumper Cave are intended. geoo and I had a hard time solving each other's levels, and you plowed through all of them on the first evening. Congratulations, excellent work!

Re-solved Natural Born v2 with a minimal adaption of my v1 backroute. I use all skills now. Nice!

Solved Clown Fiesta. I'll let geoo applaud.

Solved both of Kaywhyn's entries (Swim Team Rush, Stop Blowing Up). Of these, Swim Team Rush doesn't feel like it needs the time limit; the limit leads to unnecessary worrying near the end. Swim Team Rush has interesting and different uses of water, nice!

-- Simon

[geoo]

I went through most of the levels now (excluding the ones posted after the deadline), only missing Internection Cube (made some progress, but then moved on to stay in sync with what Simon was playing) and Magic of Lemmings (still don't have a good idea how to contain the crowd).

I think my favourites so far were Clown Fiesta (seemed completely impossible at first, a lot of interesting ideas to piece together, and yet the execution is easy and not much need for experimentation to see what works and what doesn't. Had a blast with this level.), Primitive Instinct (again, seemed impossible first and a lot of interesting observations to be made, but here a bit more experimentation was needed to determine how many builders are needed for what, and to discover that the lone flimsy root prevents building from the diagonal bar to the wall with 3 builders), and Skyfall (not hard to see what's going on, but somehow very elegant).
Splash or Splat seemed very interesting, but I might have skipped some of the intended steps; the Instrument was cute; Supreme LEMCO Safety Standard had a lot of interesting ideas to find but also a lot of fiddly placements and timings, felt super tight and I might have appreciated some extra leeway.

I especially had fun playing with runner skill.

I probably have found some intended solutions and backroutes.
I attached replays for all lix levels!

Glad to hear that! I was afraid "The Last Shall be First" may be a bit frustrating due to all the timings to get right. This one and Pommes Schranke are intended, for Hanabi I released a small update to prevent one element of your solution.

[The Tomato Watcher]

ericderkovits and Simon, all of your replays are horrendous backroutes, and I don't know why I'm surprised by that considering I got no useful feedback from anyone I asked to be a tester. If one of you is reading this, please know that I understand you have a life too and that I have no hard feelings; the situation just sucks.

My intended solutions felt a lot more clever so I'm not sure I can bring myself to make these backroutes the normal solutions, yet I have no idea how I'm going to patch any of these, ESPECIALLY my R3 which is the one I was most proud of. I'm not sure I'll ever have the energy to deal with backroutes this bad. I truly have no idea why I even entered with no tester feedback; I guess I was just excited. If I even bother to update my entries it's gonna be a while from now. Should not have spent my time and energy on this when I was already hanging by a thread. Sorry everyone

To contribute something of value now, I'll go ahead and put the replays I have here. Garden of Love was quite nice, tan x dx, and I enjoyed the concept Splash or Splat, NieSch, though my solution seems like a mild backroute(?)

[Crane]

Mincemeat (twice, but similar)

Both are acceptable solutions - well done.

[Armani]

@Simon @geoo
Hey thank you so much for the compliments! I didn't expect that level to be a hit to be honest. Glad you guys like it. Also I resolved updated version of Hanavi and this looks promising! I bet this is intended

Both solutions to Natural-born is not yet intended. Btw, you can get over the second milla statue with only one stacker! You've been wasting one.
geoo's solution to Pimitive Instinct is almost intended. Just a little bit of detail is missing.

[kaywhyn]

@Simon

Thanks for playing my levels and the replays! Unfortunately, they are both backroutes.

R1 - For V2, added some steel and some traps. Pretty far from what I have intended

R2 - For V2, added some more terrain near the bottom where the stars/lattice are. You are right about the timer being a worry, but sadly I can't add in a few more seconds without opening up backroutes, and it's to block other alternatives that otherwise would had been possible while making only the intended route work, though that too currently is pretty tight on time. I could always make it less tight if the feedback I get from several others that it's too tight later on.


Thanks again and I will get to your levels and all the other ones at some point!  

[NieSch]

Almost all* of the solutions to "Tomb of Doom" and "Splash or Splat" above are backroutes. I made updates to the levels to fix them. Thanks for playing!

*geoo and Simon: Your solutions to Splash or Splat where you manage to spare a few skills are still possible in V2. (But I might change this later. ) Well done!

[IchoTolot]

@geoo Both your solutions to my levels are intended! great job!

@The Tomato Watcher   Do not be discouraged by backroutes! It happens to all! Just go though recent contests and check the version numbers and this doesn't even count in all the backroute wars in packs! Just go through Lemmings Uncharted, Lemmings United or any other pack that has been out for some time and see the flood of backroutes coming in.
You may argue that with more experience somebody can reduce the backroute count by a bit by seeing stuff in advance, but that does not always save you!
If I go through the levels (probably after the first solving wave is over) I can try and help with some backroute fixing ideas if they are still present at that point - might need the intended solution then though.

Also I updated the packs!

[kaywhyn]

Also to add on to what Icho already said, backroutes happen to even the best of us. Yes, backroutes do hurt, but keep in mind that they don't necessarily mean the level isn't good. Rather, a level being solved with a backroute simply means that the intended solution isn't 100% enforced yet! I can think of plenty of times where I mentioned in my feedback that I thought the "level was great but I liked it even better now that it's fully patched up."

In regards to taking a look over packs/past content/past contests, this immediately sprung to my mind something I remember reading about, and that is a level by Crane from a very early contest. It was riddled with backroutes but it still ended up winning the contest it was in! Here, I fortunately remember Icho's list of previous contest results (thanks! ), so that tremendously helped to narrow down which discussion topics to look at. So, don't lose hope and encouragement! Again, backroutes don't make a level bad, just that the intended one isn't enforced yet.

Another example, but one of my own: My R2 from the previous contest. If you look at the update topic, it went through at least 20 versions! However, it was the most popular of my levels even though none of them ever made it past the rule voteoff. I had the thought that the many backroutes harmed it more than it should, and it did to some extent, but it was nevertheless the most popular of my levels in that contest.

Nevertheless, if backroutes are frustrating to you, then it's fine to take a break and come back and fix up the levels once you're good and ready. I had to do that for some of the past contests and I felt getting away from them for a time helped since they allowed me to look at them again with a clear mind and conscience to fix them. That sounds like what you're already doing, Tomato. Good idea!

[Armani]

played through the first rank and attached my replays for all except for the one I pretested.

Internecion Cube

I first tried to contain the whole crowd between two stackers to use compression method but it didn't work out nicely. Nice trick with that stacks with a dent to make something resemble one way force fields. Also the final stacker was not easy to see too.

Tomb of Doom

Wow this is definitely not an easy solution to see. Every path I tried fell into at least one skill shortage. After I realize the exit is placed on top of the steel plate, I started to considered the possiblity of the nuke solution. Nice level

Demolishing_Old_Ruins

That's really pretty tileset. I think I haven't seen it before. I'm a big dino lover and I absolutely like the huge dino trap. Though I was a bit disspointed by the sound effect of this beautiful huge creature.

The_Instrument

That was a easy but cool level. I wonder which instrument this level is depicting.

Stop_Blowing_Up_My_Construction_Work

Not 100% sure if this is intended but I think my solution at least resembles the intended one. The contraption on the leftside of the level seems very relevant to the solution and I took full advantage of it.

[Simon]

Swim Team Rush v2: Backroute, abusing a finnicky start to save time.

Stop Blowing Up v2: Looks sensible, but still feels too comfortable near the end and loses only 2, not 4.

Natural Born v3 (higher pole), thanks for the hint. I haven't found a solution, but I have new ideas to try later. Interesting things will happen.

Tomato Watcher: No worries!

-- Simon

[kaywhyn]

Armani and Simon more or less found the same backroute to my R1, except Simon's does better in the number saved. For V3, I added buttons. Unfortunately, I think this now makes the solution way too obvious, but I've been proven wrong about this several times in the past by Armani, when he tells me that my levels still tend to be challenging despite when I use pickups/buttons as fixes. Both are still far from what I have intended.

For R2, indeed Simon found a pretty elegant way to save a lot of time due to what was done at the start. For V3, the fencer is now a pickup. Again, I fear this makes the solution way too obvious now, but feel free to prove me wrong! Even if it is, this might seal the deal on forcing the intended. Also, I forgot the last time, but thanks for the compliment on the uses of the water!

[NieSch]

Tomb of Doom

Wow this is definitely not an easy solution to see. Every path I tried fell into at least one skill shortage. After I realize the exit is placed on top of the steel plate, I started to considered the possiblity of the nuke solution. Nice level

Thanks! Intended solution.

geoo and Simon: Your solutions to Splash or Splat where you manage to spare a few skills are still possible in V2. (But I might change this later. ) Well done!

I made a V3 now. geoo's and Simon's solutions don't work anymore. (Although they were clever. )

[IchoTolot]

@Armani: Intended solution for my R1!

Also the pack has been updated.

[Simon]

Lemmings are Beans

I bunker the crowd near the start and still make the time limit. The save requirement is low enough that I ignore one of the bear traps, the trap kills every 3rd lemming. Still saves 5 lemmings extra.

Cute trick where the glider creates a climber-stopping lip for himself.

Natural Born v3

Stylish trick where two platformers meet at the fountain. That gains height for the one-way obstacle. Nice! Leftover skills: 2 stackers.

Splash or Splat

A variant of what geoo and I did before. I save exactly the save requirement. Leftover skills: 1 shimmier, 1 floater. In hindsight, Splash or Splat looks open-ended even though surprisingly little seems to work on first sight at all.

geoo will post an even more efficient solution.

Stop Blowing Up v3

Floating terrain at top-left: Finnicky alignment, everything must be pixel perfect. Feels like an area with multiple backroute preventions.

After I had the solution, I understood why the top-left area must be this finnicky. Nice theory behind this solution! Looks intended and mostly forced, apart from geoo's egregious backroute that geoo will post today.

What's the reasoning behind the death drop at the bottom left? They require release rate fidgeting to avoid deaths, and seems to add/prevent nothing.

Swim Team Rush v3

Beginning without fencer looks forced now. I keep the fencer for the remainder of the solution, resulting in an easy remaining solution.

Tomb of Doom v2

geoo had the idea to nuke. Finally, the water pits make sense; they gave a choice between platformer and stacker. Saves exactly the save requirement, that's a good clue that the nuke route is intended.

-- Simon

[NieSch]

Splash or Splat

A variant of what geoo and I did before. I save exactly the save requirement. Leftover skills: 1 shimmier, 1 floater. In hindsight, Splash or Splat looks open-ended even though surprisingly little seems to work on first sight at all.

geoo will post an even more efficient solution.

This is still a backroute/alternative solution. After seeing geoo's solution I'll see if I can tweak things again.

Tomb of Doom

geoo had the idea to nuke. Finally, the water pits make sense; they gave a choice between platformer and stacker. Saves exactly the save requirement, that's a good clue that the nuke route is intended.

Intended!

[geoo]

Splash or Splat

Attached two solutions. The second one saves a bomber and an extra lemming.

Stop Blowing Up v3: Brute-forced my way through a wall, definitely a backroute.

Swim Team Rush v3: Again, looks like a cheap backroute, even has an extra minute on the clock.

The Magic of Lemmings

I wasn't aware that you can assign jumpers to sliders, until Simon pointed it out to me. Until then, I always had to use an extra exploder to achieve the same thing. That's my bad though. The time limit is really nasty though. My hunch is that my solution is intended, but I spent 30 min to get it work within the time limit, trying to shave off frame by frame by modifying the blocker and miner assignment, usually by just one or two pixels. This was really annoying. I also attached two things I tried that didn't work, one could work with a bit more time though, but again, it wasn't clear whether it could be squeezed into the time limit or not, wasting a lot of time trying. That's why time limits suck, and tightening them to eliminate backroutes makes things more annoying usually... I quite liked the level, it's very clean and simple and yet very though, but the time limit spoils it for me quite a bit, given the experience I had with it...

geoo's solution to Pimitive Instinct is almost intended. Just a little bit of detail is missing.

I solved the updated version. The change I made seems quite elegant, so maybe intended?

Spoiler

I did save a bomber though, and saved one extra lemming. Also, the previous solution almost still works, maybe you could make the water hole bigger to make it more clear that the previous strategy doesn't work there.

Your new solution to Hanabi is 100% intended!

[NieSch]

Splash or Splat

Attached two solutions. The second one saves a bomber and an extra lemming.

Well done. They're backroutes, so I made a V4.

The Magic of Lemmings

I wasn't aware that you can assign jumpers to sliders, until Simon pointed it out to me. Until then, I always had to use an extra exploder to achieve the same thing. That's my bad though. The time limit is really nasty though. My hunch is that my solution is intended, but I spent 30 min to get it work within the time limit, trying to shave off frame by frame by modifying the blocker and miner assignment, usually by just one or two pixels. This was really annoying. I also attached two things I tried that didn't work, one could work with a bit more time though, but again, it wasn't clear whether it could be squeezed into the time limit or not, wasting a lot of time trying. That's why time limits suck, and tightening them to eliminate backroutes makes things more annoying usually... I quite liked the level, it's very clean and simple and yet very though, but the time limit spoils it for me quite a bit, given the experience I had with it...

You did find the intended solution* but if it was causing you so much frustration that's not a good thing. I'll think what I can do about it. Thanks!

*Attached is my execution of it.

[kaywhyn]

@Simon, geoo

R1:

Simon's solution is very close, but the reason you found the bottom left so fiddly is because that part is the only unintended part in your solution, as it misses one final trick that I wanted to enforce there. Geoo's solution, on the other hand, is much farther away and is indeed a very bad backroute. For V4, I extended the trap near the bottom right, as well as replaced the steel with a wooden plank where the left entrance is. I could had maybe added in a timer to prevent Simon's waiting, but I rather avoid that for the time being

R2:

Both solutions are very bad backroutes, as the way the containment is done is very much unintended. For V4, I replaced the terrain under the trapdoor with steel and erased some of the left wall which will prevent that.

Spoiler

In both solutions, the timer is exactly supposed to prevent that backroute with getting to the exit from under! Yes, I could had used the easier way of preventing it by adding OWAs/steel instead of a tight timer, but I rather leave the very appealing get to the exit from under on either side, the left side which very well looks like it will work due to the somewhat generous timer but sadly no amount of RR fiddling will allow you to finish on time if you take it! In the intended solution at least

[IchoTolot]

Pack has been updated and includes WillLem's new level + music. (styles should already be in the standard download)

[ericderkovits]

Solved 5 more levels

1) Tan x dx's Rule 1 Garden of Love
2) WillLem's Rule 2  Direct Drip (Contest Version)
3) Kaywhyn's Rule 2 Swim Team Rush
4) Niesch's Rule 2 and 3 Splash or Splat, and The Magic of Lemmings

[The Tomato Watcher]

Alright, first of all, thank you so much @IchoTolot and @kaywhyn for the encouragement. That, along with just taking a bit of time away from everything, really helped.

@Armani, your solution to my R1 was definitely a backroute, but I incorporated a small part of it into V2's intended solution. The tileset in question, by the way, is the tileset for the Medieval Tribe in Lemmings Tribes, which, to avoid any confusion, is a completely separate game from L2. Here's a wiki page about it that I put together a little while ago if you're interested: https://lemmings.fandom.com/wiki/Lemmings_Tribes. Anyway, I was the one responsible for porting the tilesets over to NeoLemmix, and since its tilesets would fall into roughly the same category as the L2 and L3 ones (and since it doesn't have trap sound effects anyway), I just stuck with the default sound effects for traps, which is why the dragon (since it is a Medieval tileset I believe it is indeed supposed to be a dragon, but its design is quite dinosaur-like so you're entirely justified calling it a dino) sounds the way it does. Since these tilesets are directly ripped from an officially licensed Lemmings game, they should probably be properly labeled and put below the L3 ones, but I didn't pay any attention to that or say anything on that matter when I uploaded them.

@Simon, your solution is, expectedly, another horrendous backroute. It's pretty likely I'll just throw out the Stacker entirely and adjust the level accordingly in V2. I had quite a clever use for the Stacker in mind when designing the level, but after some consideration I think it is literally impossible to enforce without completely changing the spirit of the level. There is indeed a reason the save requirement and exit cap are what they are.

[Armani]

@geoo Your solution is actually intended.

Spoiler

Your solution is intended except that it's slightly more efficient than mine. All builder placements and bomber placements are correct. I can strictly enforce my solution by locking the release rate, but I don't think it's necessary and I will take your solution as challenging variation of the intended solution. Well done

@Simon

Spoiler

Wow I didn't expect it's possible to platform from both sides to cross the waterfall. I have no choice but to widen the water fall... /spoiler]

[Armani]

And I played through all of rule2 and rule3 levels.(+updated rule1 levels )

Demolishing_Old_Ruins

I now use every skill! It's more challenging and satisfying now since building all over the dino trap felt a bit cheesy

Stop_Blowing_Up_My_Construction_Work!

I attached two solutions. I'm pretty sure the first one is intended. And I slightly tweaked the first solution so I was able to save one more lemming.

Skyfall

The solution was quite obvious I think. Still I like the overall scenry of the level.

Splash_or_Splat

feels intended I used all the given skills and overall interactions between the permanent skills and movement skills looks good.

Swim_Team_Rush

I might have backrouted this one. I have a leftover basher.

Direct_Drip

This was a fun level. I have a spare walker though.

Mincemeat

Probably the talisman of this level took me the longest to figure out. I barely got the talisman after so many attempts! I'm feeling good now

Supreme_LEMCO_Safety_Standards

Where to use the basher and using a jumper to hit the wall and turn around was the most difficult things to figure out here. After I found out that you can make a splatform at the leftmost side of the level without a basher, everything fell into place perfectly. It was definitely a cool level

The_Magic_of_Lemmings

The timer is very tight!(or did I miss something ) The climber/slider athlete has to fall into the miner tunnel otherwise he will just keep going to left and die. This was my favourite part.

Lemmings_are_Beans

This was a cool action based level. I like the sense of urgency through out the level.

Jumpstone

It was a surprisingly hard and enjoyable level.

[Silken Healer]

Jumpstone

It was a surprisingly hard and enjoyable level.

Well done Armani! That was the exact intended solution

[The Tomato Watcher]

@Armani, your solution to my R3 was actually surprisingly close to the one I had in mind for the level. Seems like you experienced the overall feeling of the level I intended.

Spoiler

There was some very trivial cheese that allowed you to save a Walker and consequently made the ending less intense. That's the least of my worries patching this thing.

[NieSch]

Splash_or_Splat

feels intended I used all the given skills and overall interactions between the permanent skills and movement skills looks good.

The_Magic_of_Lemmings

The timer is very tight!(or did I miss something ) The climber/slider athlete has to fall into the miner tunnel otherwise he will just keep going to left and die. This was my favourite part.

Both intended. Well done! Yes, the timing is (too) tight. I'll try to make this better/less frustrating some way.

4) Niesch's Rule 2 and 3 Splash or Splat, and The Magic of Lemmings

R2 is a backroute*, R3 is intended. Well done!

*I made a V5 now.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

You're actually the closest to my intended solutions to both of my levels out of anyone! However, they still need some more patching.

R1 - Your first solution is similar to Simon's solution in that you both are about 97-98% intended except here you also did something unintended on the right side. Your second solution is a bit farther away. Both solutions do miss a trick I intended on the bottom left. For V5, I shifted the wooden plank with the needle traps on them to connect with the steel platform, shifted the structural terrain near the middle left a bit, and added some needle traps within the exit area on both sides.

R2 - Again, you're the closest out of anyone who has played this level to intended! As you might had guessed, what you did at the very end is the only unintended part and also you avoid using one area of the level. For V5, I added more steel to the starting platform and a steel block where you did the mining and bashing, and sadly I had to take away another 20 seconds off the timer so that now you only get 4:30 for the level. Because this now breaks my replay, I made some adjustments in the top area by adding more terrain so that there's less walking around. As a result, my new intended solution finishes with a couple more extra seconds than previously, but it's still a bit tight.


Also in case you're wondering, yes I still intend to enter a R3, but I'm trying to make sure everything is ok with my R1 and R2 first before doing so. Plus with the idea I have in mind I feel it will be the least interesting of all my levels this contest similar to the previous one, especially since I think when people see it it should be pretty obvious what level I based it off of.   

[Crane]

Well done on getting the talisman, Armani.  That's a tough one!

Also to add on to what Icho already said, backroutes happen to even the best of us. Yes, backroutes do hurt, but keep in mind that they don't necessarily mean the level isn't good. Rather, a level being solved with a backroute simply means that the intended solution isn't 100% enforced yet! I can think of plenty of times where I mentioned in my feedback that I thought the "level was great but I liked it even better now that it's fully patched up."

In regards to taking a look over packs/past content/past contests, this immediately sprung to my mind something I remember reading about, and that is a level by Crane from a very early contest. It was riddled with backroutes but it still ended up winning the contest it was in! Here, I fortunately remember Icho's list of previous contest results (thanks! ), so that tremendously helped to narrow down which discussion topics to look at. So, don't lose hope and encouragement! Again, backroutes don't make a level bad, just that the intended one isn't enforced yet.

Another example, but one of my own: My R2 from the previous contest. If you look at the update topic, it went through at least 20 versions! However, it was the most popular of my levels even though none of them ever made it past the rule voteoff. I had the thought that the many backroutes harmed it more than it should, and it did to some extent, but it was nevertheless the most popular of my levels in that contest.

Nevertheless, if backroutes are frustrating to you, then it's fine to take a break and come back and fix up the levels once you're good and ready. I had to do that for some of the past contests and I felt getting away from them for a time helped since they allowed me to look at them again with a clear mind and conscience to fix them. That sounds like what you're already doing, Tomato. Good idea!

I don't actually remember that level.  Do you remember which one it was?

[kaywhyn]

Well done on getting the talisman, Armani.  That's a tough one!

Also to add on to what Icho already said, backroutes happen to even the best of us. Yes, backroutes do hurt, but keep in mind that they don't necessarily mean the level isn't good. Rather, a level being solved with a backroute simply means that the intended solution isn't 100% enforced yet! I can think of plenty of times where I mentioned in my feedback that I thought the "level was great but I liked it even better now that it's fully patched up."

In regards to taking a look over packs/past content/past contests, this immediately sprung to my mind something I remember reading about, and that is a level by Crane from a very early contest. It was riddled with backroutes but it still ended up winning the contest it was in! Here, I fortunately remember Icho's list of previous contest results (thanks! ), so that tremendously helped to narrow down which discussion topics to look at. So, don't lose hope and encouragement! Again, backroutes don't make a level bad, just that the intended one isn't enforced yet.

Another example, but one of my own: My R2 from the previous contest. If you look at the update topic, it went through at least 20 versions! However, it was the most popular of my levels even though none of them ever made it past the rule voteoff. I had the thought that the many backroutes harmed it more than it should, and it did to some extent, but it was nevertheless the most popular of my levels in that contest.

Nevertheless, if backroutes are frustrating to you, then it's fine to take a break and come back and fix up the levels once you're good and ready. I had to do that for some of the past contests and I felt getting away from them for a time helped since they allowed me to look at them again with a clear mind and conscience to fix them. That sounds like what you're already doing, Tomato. Good idea!

I don't actually remember that level.  Do you remember which one it was?

Precarious construction part 2, which I believe I have played when I started my LP of all the contest entries a while back. I don't remember if I used all the skills, I'll have to check.

[IchoTolot]

@Armani: Both solutions are intended!

And yes, my R2 is intentionally on the easier side as I try to incorperate a few levels here and there that are solvable without too many problems for the sanity of the players.

[Crane]

I'll say my level is on the easier side for once as well.  If you just take a deep breath and go to it, things fall into place with the skills you have.

[Armani]

Resolved all the updated levels

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Your solutions to both my R1 and R2 are now about 98% - 99% intended! Meaning, we're not quite there yet, and I think the V6's will seal the deal on them

R1 - This one still avoids a trick I intended on the bottom left. For V6, I added in a 1:50 timer. Yes, I thought about making one of the stackers a pickup instead, but I honestly don't want to disrupt the X-of-everything skillset from the get-go In any case, you just need to tweak the bottom left a bit and you should be good to go. Other than that, your replay is essentially the exact same as mine! I can assure everyone that the timer allows plenty of leeway, and I could even add in an extra 5 seconds, but I'll just keep it currently at 1:50 for now.

R2 - What, you mean to tell me that I misplaced that steel block near the exit? Ok, this was a complete dumb on my part For V6, I simply shifted that steel block near the exit a few pixels to the right. I originally just shifted it 1 pixel, but let's better be safe than sorry, so let's do a few extra pixels over

Spoiler

Still, that was a nice abuse of the checkerboard mechanic that I totally didn't account for and think it would be possible for anyone to slip by with a miner from the right side of the large steel block.

[The Tomato Watcher]

@Armani Both solutions are pretty much intended!

I did update my R2 just now, however, as you revealed some potential for other backroutes by finding a way to save a skill. I don't know if that extra skill would lead to anything disastrous, but better safe than sorry.

[Armani]

Resolved updated levels.
All seem good now

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Your solutions to my R1 and R2 differ in a few details but are pretty much intended! Well done!

R1 - Perfect, now your solution pretty much contains all the tricks I intended! Basically the title here serves as a bit of a hint.

Spoiler

Tricks I intended: Exploding an in-progress stacker early enough so that the maximum height is reached in order to make a splatform for those coming from above, building high enough on top of a stack so that you can reach the structure in the upper left, and finally building in such a way as to block anyone from following the builder and then to bomb away a pixel of the staircase to release them with a well-placed bomber. In the end, if you follow the intended route, the timing of the platformer coming from the right at the top and the builder coming from the left should meet at the right time so that the platformer can catch him with a stacker. The interesting thing was that I originally was aiming for a 3-of-everything level, similar to Icho's R1, but then once I realized the difficulty of enforcing that builder trick at the top, I went further and decide to make puzzle revolving coming from both sides at the top so that you cannot get to the other side without platforming from the right side. Near the end, it nearly became a 4-of-everything level except for the bombers, where you only have 3, but then I realized wait, one could just bomb through the platformer that you did over the exit to reach it later, and thus it still ended up perfectly as a 4-of-everything

The main purpose of the bombers are to basically just explode the terrain added by the constructive skills instead of the normal terrain. However, the only time you can explode the normal terrain is at the bottom left and possibly the small wooden staircase near the exit if you wish but of course that's not required

R2 - Intended!

Spoiler

The only difference from the intended is you sent two lemmings to the right and one dies to the shredder trap. In my solution, I did more multi-tasking by sending three through it so that two pass through the trap unharmed, but of course it's not necessary since you'll still finish the level with about the same amount of time as if you just sent two through it instead. My way simply prepares the route faster.

In any case, the main trick of using the stoner to stop everyone else from going through the zapper trap as well as to allow them to step up to get through the miner tunnel is there even though the stoner itself isn't really needed for that since you will pretty much mine low enough so that swimmers can step up without it. Also mining from both sides at the top to release the crowd, otherwise you won't be able to get to the exit.

As you can see, due to the timer there are two other alternative routes that you could try for but sadly you will always run out of time. One of them would even be a very bad backroute due to it allowing you to save more than the requirement if it succeeded. This took me a very long time to figure out how to block. Yes, I could had easily just blocked them off with OWAs/steel, but I wanted to leave them in as very appealing routes that look like they could work but they don't, no matter how much RR fiddling you do.

Thanks so much for playing my levels, and I hope you liked them Stay tuned for my R3 which will hopefully be ready soon. I put it off longer than I needed to and should sit down with the editor and make it soon!

[ericderkovits]

Solved Armani's Rule 1 level

Primitive instinct

[ericderkovits]

solved Simon's Rule 2 and Rule 3 levels (Lix) and
Geoo's Rule 3 level (Lix)

[Armani]

@ericderkovits
Close enough Well done!

[Simon]

solved Simon's Rule 2 and Rule 3 levels (Lix) and
Geoo's Rule 3 level (Lix)

Thanks! Both of your solutions for my levels are intended, i.e., for Bumper Cave and for Rhizome. Happy to see Lix replays again, and I'm really happy that Rhizome leads to the intended solution.

I'll let geoo judge your solution to Pommes Schranke, but he'll very likely consider your solution intended, too.

-- Simon

[darkshoxx]

Hi everyone,

here's my replays for Rule 1 so far.
I liked Primitive Instinct a lot but I haven't solved it yet. Not even sure how to reach the goal tbh
I'm also at a loss with Internecion Cube and Tomb of Doom, but they're fun and I'll keep trying.

I had a little help from Icho with Garden of Love, but I'm not sure if it's intended like this. Really liked the theming and decoration.

Demolishing of Ruins gave me less trouble than the others, but MAN that dragon is intimidating . Great concept.

The Instrument had a great aha moment when I finally got it, really enjoyed that.

I will not stop blowing up the Construction work, because I have some spares at the end, and therefore this might not have been what I was supposed to do

[kaywhyn]

Just a heads up to everyone, once I get my R3 done and I upload it, I will be taking a hiatus from the game until probably about the beginning of March. Meaning, Icho will likely record his playthrough of the contest levels during that time, which I assume he'll do whenever he gets some time off from work or is in the mood to. So, for solutions please refer to his videos whenever they become available. I kind of hit my low point with the game and therefore need an extensive break from playing/solving. Nevertheless, when I do return, which will certainly be long before the playing phase ends, I will play through and record my solutions to them as well, including the Lix entries! I'll still be around to check solutions to my levels, I just won't be going through everyone's levels for a while until after my hiatus.

I will not stop blowing up the Construction work, because I have some spares at the end, and therefore this might not have been what I was supposed to do

Seems like you played an old version of my R1, as when I run the replay for V6 it fails. You can grab the latest version of the level in the update topic, or you can just redownload the pack in the OP, as it does say that it is up at V6, which is the most recent version of the level

For Icho's R1, let him or any of us who have solved it know if you want some help. I pre-tested it, and I must say it's a great level, though it's certainly not easy!

[ericderkovits]

Resolved some levels

1) The Tomato Watchers Demolishing Old Ruins, Expediency will be ENFORCED and Lemmings are beans
2) WillLems' Direct Drip (Contest Version)
3) Nieschs' Splash or Splat and The Magic of Lemmings
4) Kaywhyns' Swim Team Rush


also solved
Armani's Natural-born
and
Silken Healers Jumpstone

[NieSch]

Resolved some levels
3) Nieschs' Splash or Splat and The Magic of Lemmings

The first one is a backroute, I made a V6. The second is the intended solution.

[ericderkovits]

here are 3 solutions to Nieschs' Splash or Splat

1) Have 2 skills left
2) Have 1 skill left
3) Uses all skills

[NieSch]

That's impressive Eric! Well done. I'll add a talisman for your solution where you spare 2 skills. Your third is the intended solution.

[Armani]

If there's anyone who wants to see the intended solutions to my levels, here's it is

https://youtu.be/xeOFQJpOV4Y

[IchoTolot]

After the first big wave of backroutes, I haven solved my way through the entries.

Replays attached and here are the YouTube links:

Part 1 (Lix): https://youtu.be/wpZ7iz5KV3A
Part 2 (NL R1+R2): https://youtu.be/kimWg3d25Q0
Part 3 (NL R3): https://youtu.be/pFEMlLO049c
Part 4 (My own levels): https://youtu.be/Q1BJTwbCJZI

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

Already commented on your solutions to my R1 and R2, but I will post here as will. You pretty much got the intended solutions to them. Nice job!

R1 - Pretty much intended. Only the details in the bottom left area differ, but you made the bottom left more complicated than it needs to be There originally wasn't a timer, but after I saw a couple of solutions from Simon and Armani that involved some unnecessary waiting, I decided to end that madness. Not only that, it's to block a backroute that I don't think I can fix in any other way besides maybe making some pickups.

Spoiler

I think here without the timer platforming from the right side at the top won't be necessary, as you can pretty much do both on the left side if you have two platformers to spare. Plus you won't need to use the builder trick to block everyone from following him.

R2 - Intended!

Spoiler

The only thing that differs from mine is that I send 3 over the slicer the trap so that I can do both the mining and bashing at the very top around the same time with different lemmings, but yours is fine too, as both solutions would end up finishing with about the same amount of time anyway

[Armani]

@Ichotolot
Everything intended

[NieSch]

@Icho: Your solutions to my levels are intended as well. Well done!

[Crane]

Solution to "Mincemeat" is intended, although I'm not sure how to feel about the "ugh" feeling towards the talisman!

[IchoTolot]

Solution to "Mincemeat" is intended, although I'm not sure how to feel about the "ugh" feeling towards the talisman!

If I accomplish a big task that took quite a bit of work I let out that sound - like I just carried a large weight up the stairs.

As I said, I took that burden knowingly upon myself and the sound should not indicate any grudge or bad will against the level! I am sorry if it came across that way.

In fact I like the concept, it just took quite a bit of fine-tuning to get the talisman solution right. Nothing more.

[Crane]

Don't worry, I don't hold it against you IchoTolot, just I associate the "ugh" sound to something disgusting and undesirable, although I figured it was in playful jest!  I'm glad you like the concept.  It's not the first time I've done this (I did a similar thing with "Tough Call" years ago), but this one is mostly trimmed down to its basic components, and the talisman solution rewards as much precision as you can squeeze in.

[∫tan x dx]

All of the solutions to my level Garden of Love were unfortunately not what I was aiming for with this level. They were all still very good solutions, though!

I've uploaded V2 in the other thread

[Simon]

Icho's solutions to Inside Your Router, Bumper Cave, and Rhizome are all fully intended.

Yeah, in Rhizome, it looks like I can widen the single-block platform without introducing backroutes. I'll do it. Thanks for the feedback!

-- Simon

[kaywhyn]

Finally got around to fixing up my R1 and R2, as well as finish an R3! See the update topic for the new level and the music file for it For R3, it's another attempt at my hand of making a 1-of-everything level, and I think you all can guess what official level it's based on from the title. I simply took things further and created a solution that's only a bit harder. Honestly, this took a lot of tweaking and thinking in order to make sure it all can be done within the 1 minute time limit. In earlier versions, the intended solution was too slow by about 15 seconds! Also with figuring out how to make do with the 10 skill type limit. There were some things I wanted to include in the solution but I couldn't due to the limit I'm not advocating to expand it any further, 10 skill types max for a level is already more than enough! If you need more, there's always pre-assigned skills, but that's not allowed for this ruleset. However, I persevered and finally managed to make it work Sad to say that I couldn't really think of anything better for this ruleset. I just kept having my mind stuck on this type of level from L1 in the Mayhem rank that I wanted to make.


R1 - Armani and Icho already have the intended solution for my R1, but based on the feedback from Icho's LP video, I decided to release an update that should ease the execution in the bottom left area. In this case, it's not to fix a backroute, and I already told him that he made that area more complicated than it needs to be, as there are multiple stacker positions that still work. The position he placed it on the wooden staircase is not the only one that works. Needless to say, it was self-inflicted on his end

So, for V7 I just added a small sloping terrain on the wooden staircase. This very small and minor change is enough to break all replays, including mine, but it's just tweaking a few skill assignments and it should be good again. Not only that, it's also to enforce a trick I intended in that area better. In the previous version, it was possible to get on top of the stack without the trick I intended. In the updated version, it shouldn't be possible anymore without it, but feel free to prove me wrong.

@Simon - I took your feedback into consideration about the timer, and sorry to say it, but it will remain in place for the level. It's not to frustrate players at all (it's possible to finish upwards of around 10 seconds or so) but rather to stop any unwanted waiting you and Armani did in the bottom left area and to block off a backroute that would be possible without it, and not even pickups will stop the backroute here without the timer. Not all of us hate time limits, and I happen to be a huge fan of them, being a math person myself, and pretty much any levels of mine that do have one are pretty much for backroute prevention. I still have a handful of levels without time limits, so you might want to look at those if you're interested


R2 - Again, Armani and Icho already have the intended solution, but there was a glaring backroute that eric revealed. For V7, I covered most of the thin pole near the upper far right area with steel. Here, I want to thank Icho for telling me his method of how he achieved thin steel pieces on Hurricane 13 of Pimolems. It really came in handy here!

Once again, this change broke all replays, including mine, but to fix it here all you just need to do is tweak a few skill assignments on the far right side.

[IchoTolot]

New level + updates included.

[ericderkovits]

solved
1) Tan x dx updated Garden of Love
2) Kaywhyn's Rule 3 Hero Time Again
3) Niesch's Splash or Splat (had to slightly tweek both intended one and Talisman one)
4) Niesch's Tomb of Doom

[kaywhyn]

That's a backroute for R3. Easy enough fix, though. For V2, modified and extended the midair platform underneath the entrance.

[ericderkovits]

here are 2 completely different solutions to Kaywhyn's R3 level (V2)

[kaywhyn]

First solution is pretty much the same glaring backroute as last time, while the second solution is a closer to intended but still misses plenty of core elements. For V3, added some more blocks of terrain.

[∫tan x dx]

@ericderkovits

Nice solution, and getting very close to what I intended!

I've uploaded V3 in the other thread

[ericderkovits]

here are resolves for both V3's of
1) Tan x Dx's Garden of Love (Tough one)
2) Kaywhyn's Hero Time Again?

[kaywhyn]

Closer, but still not quite. That glider is more powerful than I thought. For V4, added more terrain! I have a feeling that it can now be abused to backroute the level, though.

[ericderkovits]

V4 of Kaywhyn's R3
Hero Time Again?

[NieSch]

solved
3) Niesch's Splash or Splat (had to slightly tweek both intended one and Talisman one)
4) Niesch's Tomb of Doom

Well done!

[kaywhyn]

Still not quite for R3. For V5, swapped the cannibal trap with the smaller wrong exit trap and replaced the brick with a not as wide one.

[ericderkovits]

Solution for V5 of

Kaywhyn's Hero Time Again?

[∫tan x dx]

@ericderkovits

D'ohhh! Another backroute!

V4 has been uploaded!

[ericderkovits]

Solution for V4 of

Tan x dx's Garden of Love

[∫tan x dx]

@ericderkovits

I'm going to accept this as intended!

I see you saved an extra lemming and a bomber, but I think that's close enough to my solution!

Nicely done!

[IchoTolot]

I have some resolved levels from tan x dx and kaywhyn.

@kaywhyn: I noticed in your new R3 level that the traps are missing their frames and therefore look a bit odd (the trapdoory had some extra frames around them in L3). --> They are also among the objects.

Nice level though and I think my solution should be intended!

[kaywhyn]

Icho

R1 - 100% intended now! Nice job! I'll reiterate here, which is your solution to the previous version of the level was intended, except I didn't realize there was one trick in the bottom left area that could be avoided. Now, in this latest version I do see that it was used, and with that the other tricks I intended as well are now all there, so I'm happy I think you can now see that the way you placed the stacker was completely self-inflicted and therefore the solution was made more complicated than it needed to be in the previous version. With the change I made, not only did it eliminate the pixel precision (there should be a few pixels more leeway in the stacker placement now ), it also enforced a trick I intended in the bottom left area.

Spoiler

The tricks I intended on this level: Bomb a stacker in progress to make a splatform for the crowd on the far right, stack and use a lemming on top of the stack to build to reach the structure on the upper left area, stack close to the first stack and then bomb a lemming on top of the stack so that you can make a hole in the first one that the others can step onto it while also making sure you don't bomb through the wooden staircase, and finally with the two worker lemmings at the top to platform and build at about the same time so that you can catch the builder with a stacker and also allow the crowd to step up the wooden staircase to get the button while also building in such a way so that you seal off the gap to temporarily contain the crowd and then find the pixel precise bomber placement to allow you to take away that one pixel to free the crowd.

Also the level title is a bit of a hint to the solution, where it refers to how the bomber uses here all blow up the terrain added by the constructive skills. Granted, you could blow up some of the terrain as well if you want to in some cases, like with the platformer over the exit, but all bombers used here do blow up the terrain from the construction skills

I do apologize for the pixel precision on some of the skill assignments, in particular the stack on the far right and the construction work at the top of the level, but honestly I don't think there's a better way to enforce the tricks otherwise.

R2 - Your solution was already 100% intended from the previous version, but the reason for the change was to fix a very glaring backroute found by eric that allowed you to send several lemmings past the zapper trap, therefore allowing you to save and finish with a lot of time to spare. I hope the steel on the thin pole is still noticeable, as I realize that it can be a bit hard to make out. Once again, thank you so much for your tip on how to make thinner steel pieces!

R3 - Your solution is essentially intended, with the only minor thing that isn't intended is the use of the bomber to avoid the trap. I could maybe make some changes to enforce the solution I had in mind better, but I'm quite on the fence about it here and is probably a very big nitpick on my part if I do make an update. I'll think about it, but if I do release an update that's really the only skill assignment you need to tweak in that area. There will probably be one other change I'll make that won't affect the solution as well, so I'll likely release an update after all, but I'll do it when I'm good and ready.

I do apologize for not being more original with my R3. As you can probably guess from the level title, this is inspired by Mayhem 3 of L1, only I took things further and made the solution a bit harder and also uses the two new skills added to stable NL, the slider and the laser. So really, this was just my attempt at another 1-of-everything (the other one of mine that's this type of level was "Cross into the light, my lems" from LDC 23) that is a "It's hero time!" type level, meaning the only reason for the 1 minute time limit is simply due to it being a characteristic of that level This was the only kind of level I could think of for weeks, and I tried my best to come up with some other level for R3, but nope, I had nothing else in mind.

Regarding the traps, are you saying that the idle animation is a few frames too short? Or the killing animation? Of course, credit goes to TTW for the secondary animations for them, as I didn't change anything here with the triggers. In the process of updating my R3, I've also noticed that the trap triggers are different widths and heights as well. I definitely could enforce the solution better if I had used the small square trapdoor trap instead of the cannibal one, but it still would had required burying the trigger very deeply into the terrain (though not as much as the latter) and would had made it not look as nice IMO.


As usual, I can't thank you enough for playing my levels and the very useful feedback as always! I'm always constantly looking to improve my levels in any way possible, especially the visuals, and all your feedback has proven to be very valuable with helping me improve Also, as mentioned in the LDC Compilation topic, like you, I can definitely see the huge improvement in the visual department in my more recent levels!

[IchoTolot]

Regarding the traps, are you saying that the idle animation is a few frames too short? Or the killing animation? Of course, credit goes to TTW for the secondary animations for them, as I didn't change anything here with the triggers. In the process of updating my R3, I've also noticed that the trap triggers are different widths and heights as well. I definitely could enforce the solution better if I had used the small square trapdoor trap instead of the cannibal one, but it still would had required burying the trigger very deeply into the terrain (though not as much as the latter) and would had made it not look as nice IMO.

No, nothing to do with idle animations or triggers! It's rather that there is another object that normally blongs to them.

With frames I mean a literal frame for the objects!

Take a look at the "trap_door_frame" and "trap_wrong_exit_frame" objects of the l3_egypt style and you'll see what I am referring to.

[kaywhyn]

No, nothing to do with idle animations or triggers! It's rather that there is another object that normally blongs to them.

With frames I mean a literal frame for the objects!

Take a look at the "trap_door_frame" and "trap_wrong_exit_frame" objects of the l3_egypt style and you'll see what I am referring to.

Ah, I see what you're saying. I didn't know about that at all. I thought that's how the traps were supposed to look, without the frames. However, I have not played the game L3, so of course your knowledge here about the door traps was quite helpful. Also, now that I think about it, I should had known about those door traps not looking right due to seeing them in your United pack anyway, so that should had occurred to me, but it didn't. I wonder if the L3 Egypt style can be changed to merge the frames with those door traps, then In that case, I'll make sure to release an update to my R3 to include the outer frame of those trapdoor traps before you record your video on your updated solutions. I'll likely do this in about a week or two, once I'm back from my hiatus from Lemmings and have played through all the Lix and contest entries myself

To reiterate, your solutions to my R1 and R2 are 100% intended, while R3 I'm a bit on the fence though the solution I have in mind isn't very much different so I may let it slide, I might not. I'll have to think about it.

[kaywhyn]

I've released a V6 for my R3 not to fix a backroute, but rather one that adds in the door frame objects for the wrong trapdoor traps, as well as added some additional door traps in the bottom left area just in case there are any funny ideas that can be used there to backroute the level even though I'm certain they aren't needed. Just one trap suffices, but can't go wrong with making triple sure, right? Here, I must thank Icho for his feedback and lending his knowledge of the L3 door traps having a literal door frame! I honestly didn't know about that, but it does make sense, since what's supporting the door and allowing them to stand upright otherwise? Also, I should had known that they didn't look right without the frames because of how I've seen them used in Icho's United pack, but nope, I didn't catch myself. 

@Icho

After thinking long and hard about it, I've decided to accept your R3 solution, so nice job solving it nearly intended! Really, if I did in fact release an update, it would just be a steel block on the terrain where the trap is and hence all that's needed to fix the replay is adjusting the bomber placement by a pixel or two. In the end, I decided against the fix, since it just looked strange to me despite just being a steel block. And yea, that would just be a very huge nitpick on my end, when your solution isn't that much different from mine and the effect is essentially the same,

Spoiler

using a bomber to avoid the cannibal trap is intended regardless of how it's done via the placement

I've attached my solution for you to compare. Really the only difference to my solution is I use different lemmings at the start to do the first few skill assignments and the bomber assignment but is otherwise the same. I also grant you permission to show off my intended solution to my R3 after you show off yours, if you want. You don't have to, of course, but just know you have my permission to show my replay solution for your video

[kaywhyn]

Finally started playing through these! I have solved the R2's and R3's of geoo's and Simon's Lix levels, as well as all the R1's. My replays are attached.
Phew, save for TTW and WillLem's levels, I must say these R1's were all deceivingly tough! I also haven't had any luck with Simon's and geoo's R1's yet. I'll have another go at them later! No hints, of course!

For tan x, is it correct that there aren't any stackers anymore for your R1? When I was watching Icho's video on the R1's, the level had stackers, but it seems that in V4 there aren't stackers It just has bombers and builders now, with most of them as pickups.

Simon's Bumper Cave R2V1

Nice easy level demonstrating running and jumping into blockers to turn them to reach other areas well.

Simon's Rhizome R3V2

My solution doesn't have the crowd use all of the far right side, and I only platform from the right side. I still use all the skills though.

geoo's The last shall be first R2V1

Like Icho, this one was a bit too much timing for my liking. Once I realized what the solution needed to look like, I ended up making so many adjustments on when to assign the runners, so after a while it just got really frustrating. I was able to save 2 due to careful placement of the last bomber.

geoo's Pommes schranke R3V2

Nice level, although I ran into the frustration of the bomber taking out part of the final platformer bridge while the lone lemming was platforming before the crowd arrives and slips by him, as well as one pixel more to the right and it would seal the gap to the exit but leave that gap in the bridge near the start of it, but one pixel before and there won't be a gap due to the bomber but it now won't reach the exit by a pixel. This was very annoying, I admit Here, I was able to save one over the requirement.

All rightie, now my feedback on the R1 NL entries.

Armani's Primitive Instinct R1V2

Tough one but really good! It was very hard to see building a bridge from both sides on the far left side being the most efficient, but I especially like the bridge on the right side to catch one of the final lemmings from the left trapdoor. I also had trouble figuring out how to get the lemmings to go over the top, but then I spotted a stepping up through the thin ceiling with a bomber after building twice. In the end, I have a bomber to spare and was able to save 1 over the requirement, so I wonder if this is a backroute

Niesch's Tomb of Doom R1V2

Nice level. Like Armani, I kept running up on skills short for a while, before I realized that it's a nuke solution. Even after this realization, I kept running up a lemming short, so that was a bit annoying. Then I tried some RR fiddling and after some time I finally got it to work. I think the funny thing was that I was considering making a nuke level for this rule, but guess I'm saving that for a later time. Seems like every noteworthy level designer of this community has made some kind of nuke level. I have yet to make one, though.

tan x's Garden of Love R1V4

Tough one, especially with how to contain the crowds when you're faced with a 99RR and 3 trapdoors. Took me a while to figure out how to stop the bottom entrance crowd from dying, until I came up with the builder wall. Interesting trap near the exit, I don't think I've seen it before. Is that a new addition to the tileset?

The Tomato Watcher's Demolishing Old Ruins R1V2

Nice medium difficulty level. I was able to save a few skills and two over the requirement, so backroute?

WillLem's The Instrument R1V1

Another nice medium difficulty level. This reminds me of a few other levels (I think one from Lemmings Plus and another from RotL) that uses a similar concept.

[Simon]

Rhizome: This is a backroute. Good find! I already have an idea for fixing it. I'll see when I have time. Released Rhizome v3 with fix. Thanks!

Bumper Cave: Intended. Bumper Cave is deliberately easy to counterbalance the fiddliness in Last Shall Be First.

-- Simon

[Armani]

@kaywhyn That's intended Well done on saving additional lemming.
Your solution is identical to geoo's and eric's.
It's possible to solve the level without RR fiddling with the extra bomber. But it's optional.

[Simon]

Natural-born v4: Armani, the wider waterfall hasn't fixed my backroute from Natural-born v3. The lemmings can swim upwards even in the wider waterfall. I've thought that for a month and never came around to re-solve it, but here's the proof, finally.

-- Simon

[NieSch]

Attached are the intended solutions to my levels.

[IchoTolot]

Here is my vid to the backrouted levels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXjlWI4iOAI

[kaywhyn]

Finally got the Lix R1's solved and hence all the Lix entries solved and resolved Simon's R3V3. Here are all my Lix replays. Also, here is my video covering the Lix entries:

Part 1 (Lix entries) - https://youtu.be/IWI3ycmdfqQ

I will record my videos for the NL entries later on, as it's quite late here and I really should be getting some rest/sleep


I've already gave feedback on the R2's and R3's, so I'm just going to give feedback for the R1's.

Simon's Inside Your Router R1V1

This one is tougher than it looks despite having only builders and an exploder. Even though the level is symmetrical, the solution is very asymmetric. Before I found this working solution, I tried the normal solution but the problem is that one will always catch up before the gap to the exit is done on either side. Then I started experimenting and saw that the flingers and bouncing from the spring can land them in different places if the staircases on the floating platforms are placed right. This looked promising, so I kept messing around with that, but the problem is that it would require two builders and then there's nothing to save them from splatting later. Thank goodness that's no the solution, as I thought it would likely be way too advanced if knowledge of flinger physics is needed to solve the level. Finally, I thought about how to get the ones that landed on the higher platforms down safely without splatting, and I think that's where the solution finally fell in place. Then again, I am returning to the Lemmings scene after a little over two months away from the game, as well as finally touching Lix again after 1.5 - 2 years, and it seems that my solving skills have gotten a bit rusty. Ultimately, I was able to figure out all the levels by myself, without hints. I'm a player who prefers no hints for Lemmings levels anyway, and Lix is certainly no exception

geoo's Hannabi R1V2

Wow, this is quite tough! Before this working solution was found, I kept running into problems of someone catching up to the Lix building over the gaps on the right side, or I thought I had it solved but then I was a skill short. The hardest part to figure out IMO was that a bomber suffices to get over both obstacles on the left side, but that requires a falling Lix in the right location. I kept trying other stuff, such as a bomber and then a builder with a Lix on the left entrance. I also kept trying to see if a cuber would be enough to get over the second obstacle, but alas no. Interesting that my solution is pretty much the same as Armani's here, and you have mentioned that his is 100% intended, so that would mean mine is too

For Simon's Rhizome R3V3 this should be intended I admit that I watched Icho's solution shortly after I backrouted V2 and hence I know how to solve V3. At the same time, I was pretty much on the right track,

Spoiler

I did consider sending a climber to go over the top to the far right side, but for some reason I didn't think it would work and she wouldn't get to above the floating platform to dig on time before all the crowd has had a chance to pass first. Instead, I kept trying to use close to the final Lix in the tail end of the crowd going to the right to dig above the floating platform, but seems that it's not enough time to finish up the big gap to the exit on both sides. Just a case of me coming to an incorrect conclusion on something I didn't even try and see for myself that it does indeed work

In any case, I tried to see if I could still backroute V3, but seems like you've succeeded in blocking out all backroutes, so nice job

Thanks Simon and geoo for your Lix entries I will likely consider looking at the LixForum pack sometime and providing my feedback in the future so that we can get the ordering of the levels better, once I'm close to running out of NL content to play through

[kaywhyn]

Finally solved all the remaining contest levels. Here are all my replays for the NL entries (for the Lix replays, see the post right above this one), including all of my solutions to Icho's levels which I of course pre-tested, as well as my solutions for Crane's R3 and Niesch's R3, which I've also had the honor of pre-testing. I've attached 3 solutions for Niesch's R2, one of which is the talisman solution and the other two just slight variants of each other, as well as two solutions for Crane's R3, one of which is a solution from the pre-testing days, as well as the talisman solution.

Also I have the remaining videos up for the LDC levels For part 1, see the above post.

Part 2 (NL Rule 1) - https://youtu.be/dTpF8EbWRLE

Part 3 (NL Rule 2) - https://youtu.be/9Yfxs9iM9-s

Part 4 (NL Rule 3) - https://youtu.be/s5r3VvmZgjc

Part 5 (my contest levels) - https://youtu.be/4UG2jpppYc0

For Armani's R2, I show Icho's intended solution after I show off my very hackish and extremely hard to pull off solution, while for my R3 after I show my intended solutions I show off Icho's solution, as a way to thank him for all the super helpful feedback he has provided me to help me improve in my designs!


I've already provided feedback on the R1's last time, so this will just be feedback for the R2's and R3's.

Rule 2 Feedback

Like R1, all these levels were a lot tougher than I thought! In particular, I found Armani's R2 to be the hardest of the entire pack, though that's because of the extremely hackish solution I found which is very different and much tougher than the intended solution that I personally would accept, but that's for Armani to decide. Sadly, I've solved all of these close to around the time the update phase is closed, so apologies to those people whose levels I backrouted and cannot release an update anymore for the LDC

My solution to The Tomato Watcher's R2 is most definitely a very glaring backroute, though that can easily be fixed with OWAs pointing to the right on the sand terrain

Armani's Natural-Born R2V4

This took me a very long time to solve and hence was the hardest level for me in the entire contest. I initially tried some "Flow Control" by compressing the crowd so that they can both be released with stackers at the right time to get over the wall and also the second Milla statue, but unfortunately I wouldn't have enough stackers or I also have to place the first stack a few pixels away from the entrance so that I can bomb a faller to release the crowd but then the crowd wouldn't be bunched up properly for this. Then eventually I did away with that and tried going through the thin waterfall at the start with a well-placed basher and then bash again once on the other side after swimming through. However, this created a lot of problems as I was faced with being a skill short or the climbers would get themselves into trouble by going back out to the left.

After a long time, I discarded the above and went for a normal solution of simply bashing on through at the very start so that I could save the stackers for elsewhere. There are two very difficult to pull off parts here: After bombing the OWW, I bashed at such a time so that one another nearby Milla doesn't turn around and at a super precise location, platform so that the basher doesn't stop and continues on through to the pole. The other one is near the very end with the final wall, where the stack on top of the first one is bashed at such a time so that both sides of it are destroyed to allow the others through. I was fortunate in that there weren't any nearby Millas, giving the basher time to platform the final gap before anyone arrives and dies to the spikes.

So yea, very hard to pull off solution. I did consider the ceiling route, but this was another case of me coming to an incorrect conclusion of deciding it won't work before I even tried it myself

Niesch's Splash or Splat R2V7

Somewhat tough, though the solution is obvious in terms of where the bombers need to go. The bigger problem is getting the execution right. I've attached two solutions, which are just slight variants of each other, as well as the talisman solution. This one was a bit fun to figure out after a time even though it can be a bit dizzying due to the splitters and figuring out how to prevent the splatting, as not a single one can splat.

The Tomato Watcher's Expediency will be ENFORCED R2V4

Sorry TTW, I severely backrouted this one As a result, some skills left and plenty of time to spare. Before I found this hackish solution, I initially used the glider to send one over the top, but by the time I mined the crowd out not enough time remains. Thus, I kept running out of time and as a result I got frustrated

WillLem's Direct Drip R2V2

Wow, I don't know why this level gave me so much trouble, but it's likely due to how I kept running into skill shortages or some Leminas will get into trouble before gaps were prepared. Good level, though I will have to agree with Icho here in that the time limit doesn't seem necessary in any way.

Rule 3 Feedback

These levels didn't take anywhere near as long as the other two rulesets, but still some tough nuts here. Then again, I only had to play Armani's, TTW's, and Silken's R3's here, as I ended up pre-testing both Niesch's and Crane's R3's, and of course all of Icho's levels. As a result, only feedback to the first three I mentioned will be provided

Armani's Clown Fiesta R3V1

Nice level. I actually had an attempt at this level while I was the courthouse for jury duty (it's a civic duty of USA people which is pretty dumb and is a huge waste of time and seems quite arbitrary as to who needs to come and attend) and nearly got the solution, but one of the basher locations was wrong. This level still took me the shortest amount of time to figure out out of all your contest levels though

The Tomato Watcher's Lemmings are Beans R3V2

Definitely not very hard but once again a level that ended with some frustration for me as I kept losing more lemmings than is allowed due to not finishing the final parts of the level on time before the crowd arrived. I'm sure it's simply the result of me making the level harder than it needed to be, though.

Silken Healer's Jumpstone R3V1

Harder than I thought, though too much jumping for my liking, so I'm in agreement with Icho that if the ruleset allowed less lemmings then it would had been better with less repetitive jumping. This one took a while to figure out how to get down safely since there are death drops pretty much everywhere. However, the rest of the level is easy once you figure out how to get to the floater pickups which allow you to get the bunch of pickups at the bottom on the left side more easily.

All rightie, thank goodness to finally have gotten through all levels here. I did get worry that I wouldn't be able to solve everything before the playing phase ended due to how late I came back to the game close to the deadline, but fortunately I was able to solve everything. Even if I didn't succeed here, I still be able to release videos of my solutions to them during the voting but off-site due to discussions of them not allowed  unless they were already eliminated.

Thanks for the levels everyone and see you all for future LDCs!

[kaywhyn]

Apologies for triple posting, but before the end of the playing phase, I just wanted to attach the intended solutions to my contest levels

[geoo]

Wow, this is an egregious backroute to Pommes Schranke which looks so painful to execute (when the intended solution is very simple to execute).
Here's a fix where I move the second fry 1 px to the right so your blocker-bomber can't blow through it anymore. (It's also in the update topic).

btw, Pommes Schranke refers to this dish: https://as2.ftcdn.net/v2/jpg/00/58/28/95/1000_F_58289557_DFySSo3h0A0KLKJZU64cuUjoglkM2ne6.jpg

IchoTolot's solution to Hanabi is a bit different from the intended one, but back when I watched it I didn't dislike it enough to fix it, so for now it's just an 'alternative' solution. Maybe I'll fix it in the future, not sure. Btw, Hanabi means 'Fireworks' in Japanese.

Yeah, I'm aware 'The last shall be first' is tedious, and was almost considering to not submit it here... But good job on solving it, looks intended. I wasn't aware of the precise bombing at the end allowing to save 2, that should be fixed though.