The Lemmings Have Grown Pack (156 levels) [Difficulty : Medium – Hard]

[kaywhyn]

Hi David,

Welcome back! Yea, Swerdis was having a problem with loading Running 16, but I was able to help him resolve the issue. Even then, you might want to take a look at it, as it appears that Gigalem made an update to the fortune tileset long after you released the pack used on that level so that the giant exit you used is not included anymore but instead a way smaller version of it. That way future players won't have a problem with the level not loading because of missing objects.

Also, I've been watching Swerdis' journey through the pack and as usual I'm very impressed with his progress and many of the solutions he has found to your levels. As of now, he is now halfway through the final rank of the pack and so it likely won't be too long now until he finishes up the rest of your pack I know he will be overjoyed to hear from you again too!

In addition, I very much enjoy reading Swerdis' feedback and it's nice to see that we agree on so many things We have come to an agreement on a couple of things, in particular, two levels that are too difficult for their position and therefore think they can be moved to a later position in the rank:

- Morning Walk 2: It's only the second level of the pack, and it's not good to have a roadblock this early in the pack IMO, because it increases the chances of a rage quit from players and they therefore stop playing the pack altogether and hence miss out on some of the many great levels beyond it. Before I read that Swerdis also struggled with this level, I thought I was simply being a big dummy here, but nope, we agree here the level's too hard for its position. Needless to say, early roadblocks are not good for any level pack!

- Running 12: Definitely way too hard for its position now with half the number of builders that were in my version when I LPed the pack from about 3 years ago. At some point, I saw that Swerdis didn't include this level in his feedback and so I decided to inquire about it. It turns out that Swerdis thought the level wasn't possible, so I decided to take a look at the level myself, and I nearly thought the same as well, but I was able to get it solved and therefore confirm to him that you didn't make a mistake here. If you want my honest opinion, a few extra builders would probably be a good change, as I don't see them breaking the level in any way. Otherwise, consider moving the level to a later position in the rank, as in its current form it is way too difficult for its position.

Other than the issue with Running 16 and the two levels mentioned above being too difficult for their position, this is it for now. Perhaps Swerdis can look into what they can swap places with, since he's currently going through the pack and it's been a while since I last looked at the pack with fresh eyes, meaning I don't remember the levels as well as he does. Once he gives his input, I can probably say whether I agree with them before you make the change for the next update    

[David]

Hi kaywhyn,

Thank you for these explanations. When Swerdis finishes the pack, I will update my level pack.

Morning 2 : I agree, this level is way too difficult (and it's not visually pleasing ), so I'm thinking of swapping it for Running 4 (which is too easy) ! What do you think about it ?

Running 12 : I will give some additional explanations in my answers to Swerdis, but indeed, I am thinking of adding additional builders (good idea !) or changing the level completely...

I will also fix some backroutes, particularly in Fast walk 12 and Fast walk 22.

Either way, I really enjoy reading Swerdis' feedback, as much as I enjoyed yours, kaywhyn.

[Swerdis]

Hello David,

welcome to the forum back again. I really have fun playing your pack. It's visually great and there are lot of great-puzzles here. My favourite is still Marathon 10. I'm really looking forward to your feedback.

Regarding Morning Walk, 2 I think this one could well be swapped with Running 4 as I found the latter a very easy one which wouldn't be misplaced as the second level of the entire pack.

[David]

I really have fun playing your pack. It's visually great and there are lot of great-puzzles here. My favourite is still Marathon 10. I'm really looking forward to your feedback.

Thanks Swerdis, it makes me happy !

As this is my first (and only) pack, I made a lot of corrections following feedback from Gronkling, IchoTolot and kaywhyn. That’s why the level pack is quite uneven, not homogeneous enough : some levels in the first ranks are really difficult, and vice versa. In addition, the puzzles are very different : some levels are not very interesting (with a lot of builders, sometimes) and others have “far-fetched” solutions. Finally, a certain number of levels used features that disappeared (rising water, explode/freeze after 10 seconds), so I had to readjust them at the last moment. I will come back to this on a case by case basis.

Finally, I didn't know that you could use custom music when creating a level pack. In fact, it has already taken me a long time to understand the vocabulary associated with the Lemmings play (backroute, red harring etc.), to understand how a forum works (I'm not very good at computers !) or to understand how to create a level pack and make it available for download. So...

I made some slight modifications in 3 levels (I will update the pack when you finish everything, Swerdis ! ) :
- Uranus World !!! (Fast walk 12) : I removed the side towers.
- Petits ponts (100 metres 15) : I reset the timer to 1 min 15.
- Bonbons (400 metres 21) : I added a platform to avoid going to the left.

And I swapped places four levels :
- Banlieue in London (Morning world 2) <---> Le lac (Running 4)
- Scenario de film d’horreur (Running 12) <---> Une houleuse aventure (Marathon 7)

You can download my replays of the levels that gave you problems (don't hesitate to ask me if you want my solution to a level) : replays

Here are my feedbacks (I won't go over the easy levels and those for which you found the expected solution) :

Morning walk (click to show/hide)

2 - Banlieue in London
Well done ! This was the intended solution. Indeed, the backgrounds and tiles blend together. It's not very pleasant. I agree, this level is a bit difficult for a level 2. I swapped it with Running 4.

3 - Au pays d'Aladdin
Yes, that was the intended solution.

4 - Dans un salon bourgeois
OK ! There is a simpler solution by going from the top and slowing down the second lemming (you have to make him « dig » the earthworm).
See my replay.

6 - AU SECOURS !!!
In the solution intended, we use the miner instead of the bomber.

9 - Epopee cathare
Yes. You can also use the digger instead of the stopper at the beginning. And the climber is not necessary.

12 - Le grand plongeon
THANKS ! Yes, I admit, I had fun imagining a slightly convoluted solution for this one.

21 - Le saut
In fact, the stopper is a red herring. However, the solution intended was slightly different from yours. Well done !

Fast walk (click to show/hide)

1 - Sonic
There is a much easier solution : turn the lemmings using the tree (the palm tree) so that it goes through the "IN" portal from the right.

5 - Le grand toboggan
Well done ! Using the basher this way in the beginning was a really good idea !

7 - Une jungle tranquille
Your solution is the same as what I considered. Good job.

10 - Nocturne au Lac Majeur
Nice alternative solution.

12 - Uranus World !!!
Yes, it’s a backroute ! I had never considered that we could climb this way.
I just fixed the problem.

17 - Tour de maitre
Yes, several solutions are possible.

18 - Foret noire
Interesting solution. You will find attached the two solutions that I had imagined at this level, one is easy, the other difficult.
See my replays.

22 - Randonnee nordique
Nice alternative solution. In any case, the solution intended was not much more complicated either.

23 - Sang de feu
Good job ! This was the solution I had planned. The pick-up builder is truly evil !!!

Running (click to show/hide)

4 - Le lac

I don’t know what the gilder and floater are for.

They are of no use. I swapped this level with Morning 2 to make the pack more balanced.

10 - Architecture de fantaisie
This is exactly the expected solution. Yes, climbers are red herring.

12 - Scenario de film d’horreur
Initially, this level used rising water, which I then had to replace with acid (to keep the "horror" aspect), but it became less "interesting". It's true, it's a difficult level to achieve with just enough builders, but... your solution is more complicated than the one I had planned. Besides, I had fun redoing the level using only one digger. I decided to keep the level as is (I like it that way !), but to replace it with Marathon 7, considered too easy.
See my replay.

13 - Le palais de la reine 5
Well done, this is not the solution I had imagined. Actually, to make it simpler, you can make the second incoming lemming dig (basher), so that it lands on the platform below.
See my replay.

15 - Les hieroglyphes mysterieuses
Well done ! Your solution looks a bit like the one I intended, but I know that there are, in fact, many solutions, each as difficult as the last (IchoTolot's solution is great !).
See my (and his) replay.

16 - Le Pont des Soupirs
I agree, it's not an interesting puzzle…

18 - Hansel et Gretel
Yes, I noticed that with the climber, the solution was too easy !

19 - La bibliotheque du chateau
Well done, but there is a simpler solution, without using the floater. You don't have to ask a lemming to climb the bookcase.
See my replay.

20 - Nuit d'etoiles

A lot of skills are not necessary, though

Yes, it's true.

21 - Luminaires
Whao ! A very very very complicated solution ! In the much easier solution I imagined, only two skills are needed (the pick-up skill is a red herring).
See my replay.

22 - Cache-cache

Key is the climber here which is a Red-Herring-skill in my opinion and must not be assigned to any of the two Lemmings.

Yes, that's how I imagined it. Well done !

23 - La prison d'Andromede
Perfect !

100 metres (click to show/hide)

1 - Il neige
This is more or less the intended solution, an alternative solution.
See my replay.

3 - Peur pourpre
Another (easier ?) solution is possible : the first lemming that runs along the path can also block the two zombies at the bottom.
See my replay.

5 - Le parc d'attraction
Nice solution, a little different from mine.

10 - L'enigme des Pharaons
I think this is a deceptively hard level. I'm surprised it caused you any difficulty !

15 - Petits ponts
I didn't think it was possible to do it in a minute using the swimmer (see my replay). However, as the timing is quite tight, I decided to reset the initial time limit (1 minute 15).
See my replay.

19 - Le mur de briques
Yes, well done, this is the intended solution.

21 - Un serpent siffle sur leur tete

There are several ways to go through the left side with the pioneer  - you can end up with 4 jumpers and no shimmiers left as well as with 2 shimmers and no jumpers.

You are right ! This is the intended solution.

22 - Palais d'Orient
Slightly different solution than I had initially planned.
See my replay.

24 - Blue Lagoon
Well done ! Your solution is a bit easier than mine. Yes, Eric solved the level very differently, but his solution nevertheless seems quite complicated to me. But... congratulations to him !

25 - Boutons de rose
Well done ! This was the intended solution.

400 metres (click to show/hide)

2 - Au Royaume des joyaux
Good, but we can still save a builder.
See my replay.

3 - Fuite d'eau
Well done ! It was a level that had « rising water » before, which made the climb much more « challenging ».

4 - Dare-dard
Yes, many solutions are possible.
See my replay.

5 - Bienvenue au Parthenon
Yes, the only difficulty in this level is how to save the blocker. Good job !

6 - Dans les steppes glacees
This is exactly the solution I had imagined.

7 - Competences
Once again, this is exactly the solution I had imagined. Well done !

8 - Larmes de givre
Yes, the basher is a red herring. Your solution is the same as mine. Other players told me this level was easy too. However, I don't find it that easy...

11 - Foret psychedelique
Your solution is slightly different from mine. Indeed, this level is not that difficult.
See my replay.

12 - Pres du port d'Alexandrie
Well done for succeeding with so few builders. Um no, there’s no typo in the title ! Well, I don't think so.

14 - Nougatine a gogo
This is exactly the solution I had imagined. Well done !

15 - Tic et tac
Once you understand the first obstacle, the rest flows naturally…

17 - Le phare
That’s right, the level is too easy.

18 - Mystere sous l'evier

However, there is still one element in this level, I really can't stand. And this is the presence of the miner-cancels-miner mechanics.

The intended solution doesn’t use this mechanic (which I don't like either !). But… by using it, we save all the lemmings. So, well done !
See my replay.

21 - Bonbons
Wow ! Funny solution.

Then I decided the builder-pickups to be Red Herrings and I put my entire efforts into the left side.

In fact, it’s not ! You can take a look at the solutions from IchoTolot and kaywhyn, which are very close to the one I intended. I just fixed the problem.

Marathon (click to show/hide)

2 - Aqualand
Nice solution, close to the one I imagined.

3 - Le morpion piege

I spared two skills, but I think this level is actually open-ended.

Yes, but I didn't think it could be solved so "easily".

5 - Porte close chez le Sheriff
The solution I planned is the same as that proposed by kaywhyn. It’s more… fluid. But yours works well, too.

7 - Une houleuse aventure
It’s true, it’s too easy a level for a « Marathon ». So, I exchanged this level for a more difficult level.

8 - En apesanteur

Don't know if the time-limit is really necessary here.

I find that it gives additional tension at this level…

9 - Soleil d'hiver
Yes, you are right about everything (even that the cloud and the sun look like a fried egg). For information, in the intended solution, I save three platformers.
See my replay.

10 - Soucoupes violentes
Yes, I really like this level as well. Nothing is obvious.

12 - Miam miam !
Good game. The intended solution was slightly different.

13 - Le palais de la reine 11
Unexpected solution, quite convoluted. You can see kaywhyn's solution.

16 - Morts vs Vivants
Nice solution !

[Swerdis]

Hi David,

thank you very much for your detailed feedback. This will take me a while to go through your intended solutions. In most cases I compared mine with those of Kaywhyn and Icho, but it will be pretty interesting to see what you really had in mind. Speaking about difficulty, I have no problems at all with breathers here and there as long as the general progress is intact. And that's true in your pack basically. There are some exceptions as we already noted, but we shouldn't exaggerate. In the end we give just recommendations - it's your pack and you can do whatever you want. And I like it. I said on a different occasion that I prefer custom music over the original tunes in the meantime. But again, this is my personal taste and you even didn't know about custom music when you created the pack.

Personally, I only ever created single levels, but never an entire pack. I'm too lazy and I'm more of a puzzle-solver than a creator, so I'm always happy that there are so many people here that provide fresh content. Also I rarely participate in discussions for I am - just like you - not a native English speaker (I'm German) which makes it harder for me to understand everything in detail.

By for now, Swerdis.

[David]

Thank you Swerdis for your explanations. Generally speaking, I tried to classify the levels by increasing difficulty, but I ran into two pitfalls :
  - On the one hand, you will agree, the difficulty (of a level) is a fairly subjective notion ;
  - On the other hand, as I corrected many levels after advice and comments from Gronkling, Icho and kaywhyn, some levels "became" much easier or much more difficult than they were initially.

As for music, I don't know where to find custom music to accompany a level pack. I don't know if I'm allowed to use music from other level packs. If anyone can explain it to me, thanks in advance !

Swerdis, you may be too lazy to create levels, but you are very good at solving them !
Anyway, I really appreciate your feedback.

[kaywhyn]

@David, @Swerdis

Hi gentlemen,

Always great to hear from the both of you. About this:

Morning 2 : I agree, this level is way too difficult (and it's not visually pleasing ), so I'm thinking of swapping it for Running 4 (which is too easy) ! What do you think about it ?

I agree, although I'm not certain if Morning Walk 2 needs to move that far down the pack. What I was thinking is near the end of the Morning Walk rank, though if there isn't a suitable level from that area to swap with it, then sure, this can do. The only thing about Running 4 is that the wide water pit might be intimidating for players if it's that early in the pack, but other than that intimidating factor, yea, it is an easy level.

Also @David, I have played some of Swerdis' single levels and I must say they're great, even if some of them are currently backroutable. I especially like his huge Brick builderless level, which IIRC Swerdis got inspired from namida's Lemmings Plus I or Lemmings Plus II pack. In other words, I recommend you give Swerdis' levels a try if you fancy a nice challenge!

Like Swerdis though, I'm more of a level solver than a level designer. Most of the levels I've made so far are contest levels, plus a single level that I released in the Random Level Sharing topic, which is my very first Fire level.

Anyway, @Swerdis just informed me that Marathon 18 doesn't load for him because of missing pieces. So, I'm going to attach the style the level uses and see if that fixes the problem. Just extract to the "styles" folder. Let me know if it helps or not, and if the latter David or I will investigate. 

[ericderkovits]

The missing piece is the new left-facing fields. Gigalem changed them from force_left and force_right to owfleft_dreadnought and owfright_dreadnought (looks slightly different but acts the same). This particular level has 2 left-facing ones in it. So here is the fixed level

Edit: These are the new ones. Kaywhyn just added the old ones if you still want those for that level. see above post. Also I've added the old ones to gigalem_dread style folder. so now I have both in that folder.

Note: Also Gigalem added several new objects that are not included in the above post styles (ie anti-splat pads)

[kaywhyn]

@Swerdis

Ah, apologies for that, but I sent you an updated version of the style. I should had checked that the level didn't load for me as well, though I could had sworn it did I've reattached the correct one (see two posts above). Same instructions as before.

[David]

Thank you kaywhyn for your review. Since Morning 2 is a fairly difficult level and Running 4 is rather easy, I thought it would be interesting to swap the two levels for "sleek” (I don't know if that's the right word, in English ) the difficulty of my pack. It saves me from making too many changes.

I will take a look at the Swerdis levels, and in particular at Brick Builderless, I have no doubt that he is a good creator, despite what he says (I have already watched his Utube channel!). For my part, I like solving levels, but I prefer designing. However, solving other players' levels gives a lot of ideas for creating our own levels.

Finally, I fixed the Marathon 18 issue (I will update my pack when Swerdis finishes the pack). Thanks to both of you, kaywhyn and ericderkovits, for your comments.

[Swerdis]

Hi David,

thanks. Yeah I make small progress at the moment. As you know I had skipped Marathon 18 due to the problems with the single file, but I could solve it today. Wasn't that bad though at the first glance this level looked really intimidating for me. But this was nothing compared to Marathon 22. You had reduced the number of builders to 17 here, and I'm still stuck - short of 1 bridge all the time. But I'm continuously working on it.

This builderless level Kaywhyn mentioned is actually quite easy - because it's meant to be open-ended. I've got a feeling I should go back to the drawing board soon, making new levels. Got lots of inspirations by you and other designers

[kaywhyn]

@David

As for music, I don't know where to find custom music to accompany a level pack. I don't know if I'm allowed to use music from other level packs. If anyone can explain it to me, thanks in advance !

Yup, it's perfectly fine to use tracks from other level packs, if the author has used custom music and supplied a download link

Two websites that were recommended to me for music thanks to Nessy

-  Video game music - https://downloads.khinsider.com/

-  Zophar's Domain - https://www.zophar.net/music

Also you can get some from the Mod Archive:

https://modarchive.org/

@Swerdis

Let me know if you have any levels that I can test for you. I know you asked me a while back and I gently turned down the offer because I want to do a live LP of the pack, if it ever gets done, but I can always do a commentary video series on it and let the replays show my solutions instead I'm finding that I just don't have the energy like I used to to LP every level pack there is.

As for your progress with David's pack, something tells me that you might be able to finish up the rest of it today, seeing how you succeeded in getting through Marathon 22. Great job! Interesting how it's different from how I resolved it, especially near the exit area. Replay attached which you might find useful for learning a trick

[David]

Swerdis : My feedback on the last levels you have completed :

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

For levels Marathon 17, Marathon 19 and Marathon 21, it's perfect, you have found the intended solution.

Regarding Marathon 18, I fixed the problem. In fact, this is a level that initially used the “freeze after 10 seconds”, which made it much more difficult to execute, with very precise timing. Your comment (mentioning the locked door), made me smile.

Marathon 20: This apparently complicated (or convoluted ) level is not that difficult. In its initial form, you had to find the keys hidden behind the Egyptian numbers between 20 and 100, which was quite difficult for those who did not know them.
But in its current form, you just need to carefully observe the reliquary and the indications on either side of the exit: first, you have to bash the “waves” block and second, you have to bash the “beetle” block. In addition, you have to bring back the four keys and find the heart (it's easy, you have to bash the “heart” block), the only organ that was left in the body of the deceased before mummification.
Okay, it's not very obvious !

For Marathon 22, I chose to limit the number of builders to prevent the level from being able to be solved like this, but congratulations, I now challenge you to complete the level with only 16 builders. With good timing, it is doable !
You will find my solution in the attachment, because I don't think I have already shared it on the forum.

kaywhyn : Thank you very much for the links and advice. I will look. Indeed, I'm thinking of offering a new (small) level pack soon.
An then, question I also ask Swerdis, where can I download Brick Builderless level ?

[Turrican]

Hi David! I have seen the discussion about custom music. I am one of the creators, that prefer to use custom music , instead of the original tracks , for both my works ( custom levels , and level conversions of custom levels between various lemmings engines ) , and for my youtube videos.

Before I started making packs for Lemmings , I used to release my works as single levels (and I still release them in that form too). So I used modarchive for their music tracks , because it made it easy for me to provide a soundtrack (I did put a link of the track each time) , and the players would have music tracks , that would listen to,  probably for the first time.

So , I've decided to post here links , for the threads that I have posted my works , so you can listen to the tracks that I've used , and download them if you like them (modarchive has a feacture, that allows to listen to a track before you download it) , and if you would like to use them for your works.

Here are links for the threads , that contain my works :

Levels by Turrican thread : https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4734.0

Turrican's Supelemmini projects : https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5113.0

Lemmix level pack topic (you will find my works , on pages 20 and 21) : https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=943.0

Turrican's Lemmix projects : https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5958.0

[kaywhyn]

@David

You can download Swerdis' builderless brick level here:

https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3743.msg81124#msg81124

The level is called "Somewhere Better Than Death Is Anywhere." What I meant by "builderless brick" is that it's a level in the ONML Brick tileset that doesn't provide any builders, as I couldn't remember the level name. I apologize for the confusion!