Author Topic: Ron Stard's Rodents  (Read 1076 times)

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Offline Ron_Stard

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Ron Stard's Rodents
« on: May 23, 2020, 12:48:45 am »


My first level pack ever!

I've always wanted to make one with the original graphic styles and the original skills. So here it is!

Ron Stard's Rodents has 10 levels with 10 different graphic styles from the original games previous to Lemmings 2: Lemmings, Oh No! More Lemmings! and Xmas/Holiday Lemmings. I have omitted the special graphic styles because I think they are weakly associated with the Lemmings Saga.

I've tried to make levels with creative solutions, tight time limit and not too many lemmings. But of course, the experienced player may find the pack very easy and/or boring. Anyway, I hope you enjoy it!

Changelog
2020/05/30 - Second version of the pack - 1.0.1
-Terrain changes in levels 2, 6, 7, 9 and 10 of Amusing rank
-Skillset changes in level 10 of Amusing rank
2020/05/23 - Initial release - 1.0.0
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 12:14:40 am by Ron_Stard »

Offline NieSch

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2020, 03:35:34 pm »
Nice looking (large) maps and clever puzzles! I'll post some replays soon.
My first level pack: Yippee! More Lemmings
My second pack I'm working on at the moment: Lemmings Unleashed

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2020, 05:02:38 pm »
Nice looking (large) maps and clever puzzles! I'll post some replays soon.

Thank you for your feedback :thumbsup:

Offline NieSch

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2020, 06:09:20 pm »
I solved half of them now. I guess some solutions are not intended. Here they are:
My first level pack: Yippee! More Lemmings
My second pack I'm working on at the moment: Lemmings Unleashed

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2020, 06:56:10 pm »
I solved half of them now. I guess some solutions are not intended.
You're right!
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Offline NieSch

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2020, 07:25:59 pm »
Yeah, backroutes can hurt. But there are always ways to fix them. And a backroutes versus fixes battle can be fun too and even improve the intended solution.
My first level pack: Yippee! More Lemmings
My second pack I'm working on at the moment: Lemmings Unleashed

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2020, 07:54:07 pm »
Yeah, backroutes can hurt. But there are always ways to fix them. And a backroutes versus fixes battle can be fun too and even improve the intended solution.

Agree!

Should I upload right now a progressive corrected version of my pack, or wait for all the backroutes to be found before posting it?

Offline Swerdis

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2020, 01:17:06 pm »
Hi,

since I don't make progress in SEB Lems at the moment, I decided to give another pack a try - and this would be yours. I made it to the end and want to say that I like this little pack. The levels are well designed, yet not too complicated - and though I don't exactly like time-limits, I feel they are appropriate here. I also think that I had an easy deal with some levels only because I am familiar with some tricks that are not known by total novices. That's especially true for "Christmas at Damocles' and "Workers of the World". For me, that hardest level was "Marooned" with a lot of precision required. I especially liked level 9, Honi Soit (what does that mean?). At a first glance I thought this level would be a pain because of the 44 climbers, but then it turned out to be real fun. You seem to like climbers, by the way.

All my solutions can be found on my youtube-channel.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka

Online Proxima

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Offline Swerdis

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2020, 04:29:04 pm »
Thanks!

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2020, 06:15:32 pm »
Hi,

since I don't make progress in SEB Lems at the moment, I decided to give another pack a try - and this would be yours. I made it to the end and want to say that I like this little pack. The levels are well designed, yet not too complicated - and though I don't exactly like time-limits, I feel they are appropriate here. I also think that I had an easy deal with some levels only because I am familiar with some tricks that are not known by total novices. That's especially true for "Christmas at Damocles' and "Workers of the World". For me, that hardest level was "Marooned" with a lot of precision required. I especially liked level 9, Honi Soit (what does that mean?). At a first glance I thought this level would be a pain because of the 44 climbers, but then it turned out to be real fun. You seem to like climbers, by the way.

All my solutions can be found on my youtube-channel.

https://www.youtube.com/user/Vidusaka

Thank you very much for playing and for uploading your solutions to the Internet! I'm glad you liked my pack! :thumbsup:

About your solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Thank you very much again for taking the time to solve all the levels and record your solutions. I take it as a compliment, I didn't expected it :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: May 30, 2020, 08:53:15 pm by Ron_Stard »

Offline Swerdis

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #11 on: May 26, 2020, 05:49:29 pm »
Hi,

thanks for your detailed feedback. I watched your intended solutions which is always an interesting thing for me. I especially like you solution of Honi Soit. Maybe the intended loss of some Lemmings at the beginning deterred me from trying it this way. And you avoided the trick I used - to make a builder lay a step through a thin obstacle to make the fall safe on the other side. I thought that would be required here.
 
When I create levels (I didn't make a pack so far, just individual levels that are supposed to form a pack one day) I deal with backroutes depending on the level type. Let's say when a level is built around a specific trick, then figuring out that trick should be a conditio sine qua non for the player - then I want to eradicate every backroute. But there is another set of levels that instead provide a limited set of skills that can be applied anywhere. These levels are not trick-based, but force the player to economize with what he has got available. When I make a level like this, I have already in mind right from the outset that there are (probably) multiple paths possible - ideally none of them should be easy to find. In cases like this, it's not important for me to have exactly one solution - and I would remove backroutes only, if they are absolutely trivial.


Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2020, 09:15:06 am »
Hi,

thanks for your detailed feedback. I watched your intended solutions which is always an interesting thing for me. I especially like you solution of Honi Soit. Maybe the intended loss of some Lemmings at the beginning deterred me from trying it this way. And you avoided the trick I used - to make a builder lay a step through a thin obstacle to make the fall safe on the other side. I thought that would be required here.

Actually, I put the thin steel in order to avoid that route. I was considering just leaving the lemmings fall free, since NeoLemmix doesn't have timed bombers anymore, but I wanted the levels to be exactly the same and have the same solutions for NeoLemmix and Lemmix/SuperLemmini - in fact, I upload both versions to the forum and the Camanis site. Maybe I consider to change that for this particular level.
 
When I create levels (I didn't make a pack so far, just individual levels that are supposed to form a pack one day) I deal with backroutes depending on the level type. Let's say when a level is built around a specific trick, then figuring out that trick should be a conditio sine qua non for the player - then I want to eradicate every backroute. But there is another set of levels that instead provide a limited set of skills that can be applied anywhere. These levels are not trick-based, but force the player to economize with what he has got available. When I make a level like this, I have already in mind right from the outset that there are (probably) multiple paths possible - ideally none of them should be easy to find. In cases like this, it's not important for me to have exactly one solution - and I would remove backroutes only, if they are absolutely trivial.

For me it's important to "force" the player to get the same or similar solutions I prepared, because I feel they are spectacular and brilliant (at least to some degree). But of course, that requires waaaaaay more planning and research than I did. Backroutes hurt me a little, because I didn't use unknown or uncommon glitches or tricks (except maybe in Workers of the World) that forced the player to choose another route. I think only a few of my levels allow different routes, at least from the point of view of my intended solutions.

I wonder if you and NieSch would help me with reworks and fixes of the future revisions of the levels (I mentioned both of you, since you were the only two users that gave me feedback).

Offline Swerdis

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2020, 05:05:01 pm »
Yes, you can count on me on that as long as my time allows it. For me, when I try to solve a level, the only thing that counts is the result. I don't shy away from using glitches when it works and I won't watch out for a better solution then. Because it's always up to the creator to prevent that :-)

Do you plan to create a larger pack?

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2020, 09:42:54 pm »
Yes, you can count on me on that as long as my time allows it. For me, when I try to solve a level, the only thing that counts is the result. I don't shy away from using glitches when it works and I won't watch out for a better solution then. Because it's always up to the creator to prevent that :-)

Thank you, I will send you some P.M. with level modifications in the following days.

Do you plan to create a larger pack?

Yes, but not adding levels to this one. My original idea was making one level per graphic style of the original games (thus designing only 10 levels), and releasing the pack for Lemmix, SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix, with the same solutions and the same (original) skills. Since that plan was completed (despite backroutes), the next logical step would be making a levelpack without being limited for the original scenarios and skills, and of course, with new levels. I am still toying around with simple ideas, because I am not familiarized with the new skills and physics.

But yes, that is my plan: to make a level pack with more levels.

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2020, 08:59:03 pm »
Pack updated! Some backroutes fixed, and much more!

Changelog
2020/05/30 - Second version of the pack - 1.0.1
-Terrain changes in levels 2, 6, 7, 9 and 10 of Amusing rank
-Number of lemmings increased in level 10 of Amusing rank (from 20 to 24)
-Skillset changes in level 10 of Amusing rank
2020/05/23 - Initial release - 1.0.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #16 on: September 08, 2020, 10:35:02 pm »
Attached are all my replays for the pack. For the most part, these were super quick to solve, although some levels were a bit tougher than others. In particular, Amusing 6 - Marooned and to an extent Amusing 7 - The Freedom Man were the trickiest for me. However, I don't know if you intended for the lemmings to not get zapped when they land near the trigger area of the trap. Also, that's where there's a discrepancy between the Superlemmini version of the level and the NL version. In the former, they get zapped just before falling from the hole at the top, while in the latter they don't and so it's easy to avoid the trap thereafter with a digger. Other than that, the only one I'm not sure is intended is Amusing 9 - Honi Soit.

As I have mentioned in the Superlemmini thread, this is decent for a first pack. I, for one, love time limits. Both 7 and 8 time limits are the tightest, both being 1 minute levels and always leaving only a second left in the solution. Most of these levels are a bit more difficult in Superlemmini due to the lack of skill shadows, but I was able to solve the pack in both engines. I would consider the levels a huge relief from all the brutal United levels I've been playing the last several months.

Overall, nice job with the pack. Looking forward to seeing more from you in the future.

Online ericderkovits

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #17 on: September 08, 2020, 11:00:39 pm »
Awesome, Thanks Kaywhyn, Now I can add this to my NL list for a pack I have replays for. I know Willlem gave up on some of these levels in his LP Playback so that's why I couldn't get the entire replays for Ron Stards Rodents. And as Far as Superlemmini's version I don't have it downloaded yet but I will. Hopefully the solutions are very similiar.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #18 on: September 08, 2020, 11:02:37 pm »
You're welcome, eric. I remember you saying you didn't have all the replays for this pack, so I decided to fill that niche for you. Check the levels for other engines for my Superlemmini replays for the pack as well ;)

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #19 on: September 08, 2020, 11:46:53 pm »
Attached are all my replays for the pack. For the most part, these were super quick to solve, although some levels were a bit tougher than others. In particular, Amusing 6 - Marooned and to an extent Amusing 7 - The Freedom Man were the trickiest for me. However, I don't know if you intended for the lemmings to not get zapped when they land near the trigger area of the trap. Also, that's where there's a discrepancy between the Superlemmini version of the level and the NL version. In the former, they get zapped just before falling from the hole at the top, while in the latter they don't and so it's easy to avoid the trap thereafter with a digger. Other than that, the only one I'm not sure is intended is Amusing 9 - Honi Soit.

As I have mentioned in the Superlemmini thread, this is decent for a first pack. I, for one, love time limits. Both 7 and 8 time limits are the tightest, both being 1 minute levels and always leaving only a second left in the solution. Most of these levels are a bit more difficult in Superlemmini due to the lack of skill shadows, but I was able to solve the pack in both engines. I would consider the levels a huge relief from all the brutal United levels I've been playing the last several months.

Overall, nice job with the pack. Looking forward to seeing more from you in the future.

Attached are all my replays for the pack. For the most part, these were super quick to solve, although some levels were a bit tougher than others. In particular, Amusing 6 - Marooned and to an extent Amusing 7 - The Freedom Man were the trickiest for me. However, I don't know if you intended for the lemmings to not get zapped when they land near the trigger area of the trap. Also, that's where there's a discrepancy between the Superlemmini version of the level and the NL version. In the former, they get zapped just before falling from the hole at the top, while in the latter they don't and so it's easy to avoid the trap thereafter with a digger. Other than that, the only one I'm not sure is intended is Amusing 9 - Honi Soit.

As I have mentioned in the Superlemmini thread, this is decent for a first pack. I, for one, love time limits. Both 7 and 8 time limits are the tightest, both being 1 minute levels and always leaving only a second left in the solution. Most of these levels are a bit more difficult in Superlemmini due to the lack of skill shadows, but I was able to solve the pack in both engines. I would consider the levels a huge relief from all the brutal United levels I've been playing the last several months.

Overall, nice job with the pack. Looking forward to seeing more from you in the future.

Thank you for your feedback, it means a lot to me.

Now, about your solutions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Perhaps someday soon I'll attach in the main post what I consider the official solutions. I can pass it to you, if you want them.

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #20 on: September 09, 2020, 12:14:10 am »
Here are the "official" solutions. Or maybe I should say, the solutions I had in mind when I designed the levels. It's a pity they are plague-ridden with backroutes :'(

Enjoy them!

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #21 on: September 09, 2020, 12:30:51 am »
Oops, quoted my post twice, didn't you? Are you still going to fix the two levels up? Or are you just going to let them be? As I mentioned before, this is a decent first pack. Regarding level designing and eliminating backroutes, this is where playing multiple packs by various authors really helps in getting ideas for levels and learning some tricks that you probably want to incorporate in the levels you make or even help you learn how to block out backroutes from usage of the trick(s). The idea here is that "experience is the best teacher." The more you do something, the better you're get at it. Just don't feel too bad about the first pack not being as well as you wanted. The best you can do is simply learn from the feedback given, particular on things that can be improved. Heck, I'm not even sure if I can do a pack that is about the quality of this or even better. I have yet to make any levels, as I'm mostly a level solver, but after playing through the Bonus rank of United, many of the levels in there are really inspiring and motivating me to give it a try. I have said over and over that I'm no good when it comes to level designing, but the thing is I won't know if I truly am bad at it unless I try.

As usual, I'm still looking forward to future content from you. I'm quite positive that whatever you release next will be many times better than your attempts at a first pack.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Ron Stard's Rodents
« Reply #22 on: September 09, 2020, 02:27:53 am »
Ok, I watched your replays for Amusing 7, 9, and 10. Indeed, I can't believe that route escaped me for 7. In this case, I say the easiest thing to do is to simply move the trap so that the trigger area prevents any of them from being able to fall onto the piece of terrain where the trap is, just like in Superlemmini. For 9, the easiest fix would probably be to move the steel pieces where the top right entrance is up more so that one cannot build up to it anymore like I did with the given builders. A similar fix can apply to 10: Move up the steel blocks on each side so that lemmings will splat if they hit their head on the first builder brick and fall back down.

In regards to determining when climbers splat, I believe it's determined where the lemmings' feet is when they're turned around after hitting their head, not where the head is. I'm not quite certain, as I'm still a bit confused about the splat ruler myself.

edit: Ok, the easiest way for me to test when climbers splat was I used Havoc 7 - Creature Discomforts. On the right side, assign a climber to climb up the wall on the right and then a bomber when he's just about level with the grey block to his left. Send another climber up to build in such a way so that when you send another climber up it will hit his head and fall back down. It turns out that splatting for climbers is determined in exactly the same way as walkers who become fallers: Determined by the position of the lemming's foot and whether they fall within the red area at the bottom of the splat ruler. In order to be non-fatal, the lemming's foot needs to be below the top of the first color area below the yellow-orange part of the splat ruler, which means the fall will be safe. However, if the foot is inside the purple color area, the fall will be fatal. This therefore explains why climbers can go a little higher and don't splat as a result than walkers. Easiest way to get the one pixel difference is to use the skill shadow of the bomber on the wall on that level.

edit 2: I attached the two replays, one where a climber doesn't splat and another video where the climber splats even though I bombed the lemming 1 pixel higher (press N and you will see the skill shadow move up a pixel). In any case, I think what I said regarding a fix for 10 still applies, just move the steel blocks up about 3 or 4 pixels.   
« Last Edit: September 09, 2020, 03:07:55 am by kaywhyn »