Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems  (Read 3128 times)

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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #15 on: November 06, 2020, 09:47:47 AM »
ok, The final rank(Modernist) is done. And that completes the Artlems Pack. This is the first CUSTOM Neolemmix pack that I solved on my own. Of course I've solved some of the original ones
(ie: Genesis, Original, Xmas, and demo ones of NL), but as far as someone elses custom pack, this is the first. So the replays are actually mine. I enjoyed the pack for the most park(minus a few
fiddly levels, like I'll be bach(Beroque level 6), and the worst level fur Elise(Neoclassic level 3-which I absolutely hated)). Many levels were difficult, but still many not.

And actually the final rank wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be(probably the trickiest was level 1 and level 9 otherwise I didn't struggle much with the others)
Probably my favorite levels in this final rank were Level 2 (Art's Abstraction-not too difficult) and Level 5(Hailfire Peaks-a little tricky but not extremely)


And I think my favorite levels in the whole pack were Level 8 of Medieval(The Highlands of Scotland), Level 11 of Medieval(Church of Saint Stephen), Level 4 of Baroque(Playing in the Winter),
and Level 2 of Romantic(Flight of the Bumblebee)


Also I found out that 2 of the levels won't work with 12.94 due to the change in Glider Physics: (both work though in 12.82)

1) Baroque level 1(Oh, suite handel) glider wont make it to terrain on the right from left climbing spot(as previously posted)
2) Romantic level 2(Flight of the Bumblebee), glider won't land in exit after climbing terrain left of it

So for this pack currently use 12.82 as 12.94 those levels above won't work.

Also my posted replays will be for 12.82(so those 2 levels will fail if one uses 12.94)


Ok, I will post 2 sets now.

1) Just the Modernist Rank(Final rank) as I posted previous individual ranks already.
2) The replays for the complete Artlems Pack.

Note: I'll will update My op list showing this packs replays.
« Last Edit: November 06, 2020, 09:52:58 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #16 on: November 06, 2020, 11:22:50 AM »
Congratulations on beating your very first NL custom pack! :thumbsup: You see? You're much more capable of solving levels than you give yourself credit for. Don't ever doubt your abilities. I been following along in your quest, and I can tell you were quite determined to finish this pack once and for all, even if it took you a lot of time to do so. There's definitely a first time for everything.

I took a look at the second level that you said isn't possible due to the glider physics. After a while, I managed to solve it, and it turns out that the level is still possible even with the broken glider physics. See my attached replay for Romantic 2. With this replay and Armani's backroute for Baroque 1, this means that all of Artlems v1.0 is solvable in 12.9.4. However, since both levels rely on the glider being able to reach certain areas, in Baroque 1's case landing on the area at the top on the right and Romantic 2 being able to glide into the exit via climbing without having to do anything else, it definitely means that these two levels need to be updated so that they're now possible the intended way.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #17 on: November 06, 2020, 01:58:47 PM »
ok, yes, I see your 12.94 solution. I do notice in your replay though after climbing it goes past the exit, but you continued to get the solution by using all the skills. Your same replay in 12.82 would have exited before, thus you would still have had remaining skills left.

Also This level I really like how you have to traverse to the right to get the switch before traversing back to start to enter unlocked exit. This level in the pack is one of my favorites.

Also there is 1 level with my replays I really dont like. I think it's a really big backroute, since I don't even get the majority of the pickup skills. It's the final rank Modernist level 6
"Circus of chaos II". I been spending alot of time to try to solve it by getting all the pickups but I always run out of skills. So I know my solution is NOT intended. But I don't even know if Arty
will do anything with this pack since he didn't even finish it by getting the wanted amount of levels in each rank. So I doubt he'll even do anything with fixing backroutes.

But at least now there are replays posted for this pack by me in addition to your Romantic 2 replay for 12.94 and Armani's Baroque level 1 backroute.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #18 on: November 06, 2020, 03:13:30 PM »

Also there is 1 level with my replays I really dont like. I think it's a really big backroute, since I don't even get the majority of the pickup skills. It's the final rank Modernist level 6
"Circus of chaos II". I been spending alot of time to try to solve it by getting all the pickups but I always run out of skills. So I know my solution is NOT intended.

I took a look at this level, and yes I don't get most of the pickup skills either. As a matter of fact, I checked your replay after I solved it, and our solutions are the exact same, except I also got the bomber pickup, meaning I ended up using both walkers. Also builder allotment was different in that I only used one builder before mining the wall before the exit, as well as used a builder to turn the climber back. In your solution, you definitely could had had a builder leftover in the end.

You never know, though. This level might be a case where some of the pickups are decoys and therefore it might not be necessary to get all of them, or if you do the level might not be solvable. Putting pickup decoys can certainly be a great way to fool the player into thinking he/she must get them all in order to solve the level, when really they can be quite effective at being red herrings, as tempting as some of them can be.

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ok, yes, I see your 12.94 solution. I do notice in your replay though after climbing it goes past the exit, but you continued to get the solution by using all

Well yea, my solution uses 12.9.4, and that's the version where you have confirmed that the glider will not exit after climbing, and that's indeed what happens. The whole point of my solution was to see if the level's still possible in this version despite the broken glider physics. Since I have confirmed that it's still solvable due to solving the level myself, the entire pack is still possible in 12.9.4. Still, it's definitely great that you mentioned which levels broke due to the glider physics in the case that other players might want to play through the pack. In particular, I have plans to take on this pack later on in the future, so this is a nice heads-up. Also, it would had been nice to know ahead of time which levels might had possibly broke due to the glider physics, but since this is a small enough pack, it's not too bad, and also the fact that you didn't even encounter any such levels until somewhat late in the pack.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #19 on: November 07, 2020, 02:04:23 AM »
Also I don't consider your solution to Romantic 2 a backroute. It just took every last skill to get the lemming home in 12.94 where your solution was actually more efficient than mine because I only had 1 builder and 1 platformer left in 12.82 where your's would have had more in 12.82(just not in 12.94). But Armani's I do consider a backroute(he does too); because due to glider issue in 12.94 for Baroque 1 he had to solve without even using a glider. Also I figured there probably were still possible ways to solve Romantic 2 in 12.94 since there were more skills availiable.

Also the main reasons I played Artlems were

1) I wanted to have replays for the pack since nobody posted any.
2) I wanted to see if I could solve a custom pack on my own(since it seems nobody completed it). Also Arty stated he thought Artlems was harder than Sublems(although I think it's maybe about the same in my opinion. Especially since I'm not a very good puzzle solver.) Also I got all 10 of the Talismans in the pack.
3) I really like his designed levels and liked the music.(although in Medieval 3 his music title "Chef Manor"-listed in the levels music field of the editor is missing in his music folder, so I just replaced it with assyrian.ogg which I don't think he used in any other levels)
4) The Pack wasn't too big
« Last Edit: November 07, 2020, 02:17:13 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #20 on: November 07, 2020, 04:45:55 AM »
Also I don't consider your solution to Romantic 2 a backroute. It just took every last skill to get the lemming home in 12.94 where your solution was actually more efficient than mine because I only had 1 builder and 1 platformer left in 12.82 where your's would have had more in 12.82(just not in 12.94). But Armani's I do consider a backroute(he does too); because due to glider issue in 12.94 for Baroque 1 he had to solve without even using a glider. Also I figured there probably were still possible ways to solve Romantic 2 in 12.94 since there were more skills availiable.

I am in agreement with my solution to Romantic 2 not being a backroute, particularly since all extra skills I had certainly don't break the level in any way. It just so happens that what I had at the end still allowed me to solve the level despite the broken glider physics. Also, the lemming is a glider to begin with, so there's no issue with never ever using a glider, which is very different from not using the glider on Baroque 1, which is definitely needed in the intended solution and hence it's definitely a backroute. I haven't seen Armani's solution to it, and I don't intend to until I solve it myself. However, the fact that a person solved it shows that Baroque 1 is still possible in v12.9.4 despite the broken glider physics.

It's important to note that a solution can still be a backroute even if all skills are used. I can name many examples from United. In the case of my solution to Romantic 2 in v12.9.4, it's really just unnecessary extra stuff I did at the end due to the intended solution not working as it should that's absolutely not needed had the glider functioned properly after climbing. As I mentioned before, it's simply to show that the level's still possible in v12.9.4. 

Quote
Also the main reasons I played Artlems were

1) I wanted to have replays for the pack since nobody posted any.
2) I wanted to see if I could solve a custom pack on my own(since it seems nobody completed it). Also Arty stated he thought Artlems was harder than Sublems(although I think it's maybe about the same in my opinion. Especially since I'm not a very good puzzle solver.) Also I got all 10 of the Talismans in the pack.
3) I really like his designed levels and liked the music.(although in Medieval 3 his music title "Chef Manor"-listed in the levels music field of the editor is missing in his music folder, so I just replaced it with assyrian.ogg which I don't think he used in any other levels)
4) The Pack wasn't too big

I'm definitely aware of your reasons for playing this pack, especially 1, 2, and 4. In any case, I hope that the experience has showed you that there's definitely truth in my assertion that level solving is just as hard work as level designing, sometimes even more time consuming, especially if the level is difficult to begin with. To add to 1, this reasserts what I said about "do it yourself" if there aren't any replays posted. However, I do understand what you mean by "I would had done it myself if I was a great level solver like yourself (me)." The fact that you completed this entire pack all by yourself AND without any replay guides is very admirable IMO and tells me that you're much better than you claim you are. This is far better than claiming that you won't be able to solve all the pack, because here you at least tried. Yes, it might had taken you a while, but you eventually managed to finish the entire pack in the end. Plenty of others, including myself, might be faster in finishing the pack, but that doesn't make you any worse than them. Who cares if it takes you longer to solve a level/pack than others? If you still manage to solve the same level in the end as someone who solved the level taking way less time, the result is the same and thus it doesn't mean you're worse. Maybe if it came to a speed level solving contest, yes, which I admit I would most likely lose as well, particularly if I was pitted against the ones on your top solvers list.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #21 on: November 07, 2020, 08:15:14 AM »
ok, here is my new replay for Modernist 6 Circus of Chaos II.

I managed to solve it by getting 100% of the pickup skills and use every skill. So yes it's possible. Although I think this is very hard to find.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #22 on: November 07, 2020, 09:14:21 AM »
Ok, nice job. Good to know that a solution which collects and uses all the pickup skills does exist. In this case, none of the pickups are decoys. I kind of suspected they weren't. I simply didn't spend enough time on the level to try and find the solution, especially since I'm not really seriously playing the pack or any of the levels at the moment. So far in my experiences, I pretty much have only encountered two levels where a handful were complete decoys, while there are also a handful of levels I played where I have no idea what the pickups are for, since sometimes I don't even end up using any or most of the ones I do collect. As I had pointed out previously, pickups can be quite effective in creating red herrings. That's why sometimes when solving, it's helpful to ask whether or not collecting specific pickups will help towards a solution while ignoring the others that won't help. In any case, as I have pointed out many times before, unless there's only one solution, I'm simply content with solving levels in any way I can, backroute or not. Not to mention that just because a level is backrouteable doesn't always mean it's a bad level, just simply one that hasn't yet fully blocked all easier, alternative unintended solutions.

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #23 on: November 08, 2020, 02:42:00 AM »
ok, I made a suggested fix for arty's modernist 6(Circus of chaos II) level, so what I think is his intended route and solution. Also this level is in the final rank so I think this would make the level harder as it is now too easy for the rank(due to what I think is a big backroute(making level too easy))

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 07:36:54 AM by ericderkovits »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2020, 02:24:56 AM »
I tried playing Artlems with the new 12.10, but using this version won't work at all. There's a problem with arty's artlems styles for a few levels. And even putting his artlems styles in the styles folder, it says something about missing objects. I tried downloading them thru the styles update but still it doesn't work. Also when starting 12.10 with this pack it reports it's pre 12.7x. so I think
arty's pack won't work with the 12.10 version of NL. Arty's artlems is meant for older NL players. If one wants to play his pack, I think it's just better to stay with 12.82 plus the glider issue works as it
should in 12.82 (not even really meant for 12.94 although the 2 glider levels can still be solved. Baroque 1 thru Armani's backroute and Kaywhyn's replay of Romantic 2)

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #25 on: November 14, 2020, 11:35:09 AM »
Nothing to do but for Colorful Arty to update the styles so that no problems occur in v12.10. In the meantime, it's like you said, just play it in 12.8.

Also:

Just a friendly reminder that level fixing should be left to the pack author(s). I'm sure your effort in a potential fix for one of the levels is appreciated, but we're not mind readers and hence we don't know if that's really what Arty intended. You can suggest fixes verbally, that's fine, but our time and energy is better spent elsewhere, and ultimately the responsibility is on the author, aka, Colorful Arty, to maintain the pack/level fixing. For everyone else, we just play the packs that the author releases and should simply respect the authors by not messing/editing the levels of their packs. The pack is, after all, the author's property. Why worry about something that's not our responsibility? Fixing the levels themselves is the least of our worries and should be left to Arty to take up since they're his. Even if it appears that backroutes won't be fixed, you never know. Sure, the fact that there hasn't been any follow-up posts since the release from Arty can lead you to believe that, but it doesn't mean that he won't do any fixing. He still might. Finally, he's still active here, even if he's not on all the time.   

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #26 on: November 14, 2020, 11:42:11 AM »
Yes ,ok I left Artlems modernist level 6 as is in my pack, so I have 2 solution replays for the pack. The one I think is a backroute and the one where I get all the pickups. Of course it is only a suggested fix, but I'll accept whatever arty does to the level to fix it, or if he doesn't fix it then ok. I do see him sometimes come online in the morning, even saw him look in this topic, so I'm sure
he's aware of it, but since he didn't finish the pack with the number of levels wanted, he may not even be interested in this pack at all even to fix backroutes.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #27 on: November 14, 2020, 11:46:43 AM »
Even if he's not interested in fixing up backroutes, it's not up to any of us besides him to fix the levels up. The best and safest thing to do is to ask for consent, but otherwise should be left to the author to do the pack maintenance and fixing.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #28 on: November 14, 2020, 12:04:35 PM »
Quote
Even if he's not interested in fixing up backroutes, it's not up to any of us besides him to fix the levels up. The best and safest thing to do is to ask for consent, but otherwise should be left to the author to do the pack maintenance and fixing.

Exactly.

Quote
I tried playing Artlems with the new 12.10, but using this version won't work at all. There's a problem with arty's artlems styles for a few levels. And even putting his artlems styles in the styles folder, it says something about missing objects. I tried downloading them thru the styles update but still it doesn't work. Also when starting 12.10 with this pack it reports it's pre 12.7x. so I think
arty's pack won't work with the 12.10 version of NL. Arty's artlems is meant for older NL players. If one wants to play his pack, I think it's just better to stay with 12.82 plus the glider issue works as it
should in 12.82 (not even really meant for 12.94 although the 2 glider levels can still be solved. Baroque 1 thru Armani's backroute and Kaywhyn's replay of Romantic 2)

Well, this is the same problem as before with some of the styles. Arty just never submitted his extra style to the standard library to get it fixed. I simply ran it through the style fixer and it works now.
I attached the updated style.

@Colorful Arty: Please replace your old style inside your download with the updated one. Then everything should work again. :)

At least it's working for me now. ;P

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] ArtLems
« Reply #29 on: November 14, 2020, 12:11:48 PM »
Quote
Well, this is the same problem as before with some of the styles. Arty just never submitted his extra style to the standard library to get it fixed. I simply ran it through the style fixer and it works now.
I attached the updated style.

@Colorful Arty: Please replace your old style inside your download with the updated one. Then everything should work again. :)

At least it's working for me now. ;P

Precisely, hence what namida meant by the responsibility being the author's to make sure that the styles for their packs is up-to-date in the "what I need to do with my content" to prepare for v12.10 that is mentioned in the stable release topic.

You are awesome, Icho! :thumbsup: Confirmed, now working for me as well.