Author Topic: Lemmings Redux  (Read 11464 times)

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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #180 on: February 20, 2021, 09:13:48 PM »
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Q1 "PoP YoR ToP"
I'd lean very slightly towards flip. EDIT: Actually, after further thought, yeah, I would definitely say flip.

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Q21 "The Long Way Around"
Flipping feels right to me here, but this is another close call, and I would be okay with either outcome.

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Q22 "The Far Side"
Flip.

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Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"
It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

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M18 "The gate trap Lemmings."
Flip the right entrance.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #181 on: February 20, 2021, 09:47:27 PM »
Flipping heck! :lemcat:

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #182 on: February 21, 2021, 09:08:15 AM »
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Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"
It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

That's interesting, because currently the top trapdoor is flipped but the bottom one is not, and that must have been your decision at some point? ;)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #183 on: February 21, 2021, 05:34:48 PM »
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Q23 "Emmings! (No L)"
It feels right to leave as-is, but this is another one where I don't have any particularly strong feelings either way.

That's interesting, because currently the top trapdoor is flipped but the bottom one is not, and that must have been your decision at some point? ;)

"As-is" as in how it currently is, not as in how Amiga was. :)

My guess is that I used "towards the exit" for the top, while thinking "going towards the wall they're closer to" doesn't make sense for the lower one, but it has to be factored in that I wasn't always very consistent back when I did these conversions.

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #184 on: February 24, 2021, 02:59:58 PM »
While we're waiting to see if anyone else wants to chime in about the trapdoors, there are a couple of other small changes I have been considering, and would like a second opinion on:

* Quest for Kieran: I recently reverted the terrain to its original layout, since it seemed clear that it must have been changed by accident at some point. However, after doing this I noticed that on Amiga and DOS, since builders are asymmetrical and not as good at stretching to the left, it is not possible to cross the gap with 3 builders alone without losing any lemmings, whereas on NL it is. Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there? The level has enough surplus skills that the deadly ceiling seems not to close off any solutions that otherwise work, but it is an unintended gameplay difference. I am pretty sure this is the only level where ceiling behaviour needs to be addressed and hasn't been, but feel free to point out if there are any others. (We have addressed it on "No hurry, relax" and "Lemmings' Ark".)

* You need bashers this time: As well as reducing lemming counts, we reduced the skillsets on many early levels, for instance trimming the Tame levels from 20 of each to 10 of each. This was mostly done because 20 of each, with the reduced lemming counts, would produce unusable bombers on levels that didn't originally have them, but it does suggest that we felt skillset economy made the levels feel more NL-like. "You need bashers", however, still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #185 on: February 24, 2021, 05:35:53 PM »
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* Quest for Kieran: [...] Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

I'm neutral on the fixing in and of itself, but I don't like the proposed method. Move the exit platform a few px to the left instead. However, I'll note that we've been okay with other cases where this makes a difference, in particular "Lemmings In A Situation" where the better left-building allows several challenge solutions that are not possible on DOS. I personally would just leave this.

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* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?

Neutral on this.

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* You need bashers this time: As well as reducing lemming counts, we reduced the skillsets on many early levels, for instance trimming the Tame levels from 20 of each to 10 of each. This was mostly done because 20 of each, with the reduced lemming counts, would produce unusable bombers on levels that didn't originally have them, but it does suggest that we felt skillset economy made the levels feel more NL-like. "You need bashers", however, still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

I'd support this, but I wouldn't consider it a very big deal if it didn't happen.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #186 on: February 24, 2021, 07:45:45 PM »
* Quest for Kieran: ...I noticed that on Amiga and DOS ... it is not possible to cross the gap with 3 builders alone without losing any lemmings, whereas on NL it is. Should this be considered a backroute and fixed (maybe by reducing the number of builders to 2)?

I'd say yes, but I concur with namida that moving the exit platform is a better way to fix it. That way, it plays exactly like the original (which seems to be the goal with this particular level).

* Everyone's a hard nut: Since this is a Genesis level, it was designed to have a solid ceiling. Should we add terrain in the top-right corner to stop a climber dying if he hits the ceiling there?

Yes.

* You need bashers this time: ...still has an excessive supply of 50 bashers. Should we reduce this to 20?

30 is a nicer number if you're going to reduce; this is a fun one to spam Bashers through the mesh, let's not deprive players of that pleasure :lemcat:

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmings Redux
« Reply #187 on: February 24, 2021, 07:55:11 PM »
Thank you both for the feedback. I feel pretty close to being able to make final decisions on these questions and on the trapdoor flipping, but again, as so few people are contributing at this stage, I feel obliged to leave this discussion open a little longer in case anyone else wants to chime in.

So, I will say that on 1 March I will make final decisions on these questions, no matter what, and then put together a final update to the pack. This one really should be the absolute final version of Redux -- although if a serious error comes to light like the recently fixed terrain error in "Quest for Kieran", I will still update the pack to fix things like that. I will also, of course, continue to maintain the pack as necessary, if any changes are needed because of updates to the NL engine itself.

And, as I've said elsewhere, once Redux is really finished, my next project will be finishing the update to the NL conversions of the original games, so that those are in the same reasonably stable status.