Lemmings Hall of Fame [120/120 levels completed; Test Phase Has Begun]

[Strato Incendus]

Yet. More. Stuff!


Welcome to the jungle


The Lem-catcher's song

Believe it or not, this level might actually be more difficult to figure out if that flame-thrower trap wasn't there... It forces you to do something that you wouldn't necessarily do at this spot otherwise. But since this level is supposed to go in the first rank, I thought this might be an adequate way to make it a little easier.


Counting stars

Those one-way fields on the right are certainly one way to simulate a Slider... This only works with a Floater though, which consequently requires a protruding piece of terrain at the bottom. Gliders get trapped between the wall and the one-way field and can't actually move anywhere, not even down.


Ziggy Stardust


Can you feel the Lems tonight?


Bad moon rising


Atemlos durch die Nacht

[Strato Incendus]

...and yet still some more! I tried several times tonight to create an easy Polar level. It never worked. I always ended up getting stupid ideas for obscure solutions halfway through...


Inside the winter storm


Footsteps in the snow


Black winter day

On to some Highland levels!


Highland Lemmy


Road to the isles


My spirit flies


Inside the pyramid of light

And finally, this Space level features a black hole! Beware the inevitable pull of gravity...


Blackened sun

[Strato Incendus]

Some more ideas. I noticed the Beach levels actually have a dark blue background in the original game. So I'm using the one from the L3 Egyptian tileset here. In contrast to L2 Shadow, where the background automatically adopts the correct colour, the same doesn't happen when selecting L2 Beach as a level's main theme.


Fly on the wings of Lem


Lembada


The gang's all here


Maniac


Sandstorm


The monster is loose

Another thing typical of L2, specifically of the Circus tileset, are levels that limit themselves to just 1 or 2 of the available colours. Hence, I've moved this song title, which was originally intended for the Shadow tribe (see page 1 of this thread), to the Circus tribe.


Blue Monday

[Strato Incendus]

Okay, I know I promised a first test version a while ago. Here's what I'm going to do:

The first rank, Bronze, is finished. The second rank is currently at 12 levels, the third and fourth at 10 each.

I will add 8 more levels to the second rank, so that it's 30 + 20 + 10 + 10. That's 70 of 120 levels in total. Those are going to form the first test version.

I don't want to progress too far on this pack too early, because with the final NeoLemmix skill having been narrowed down to either the Slider, the Laser Blaster, or two projectile skills, meaning (Spear) Thrower and Mortar / Bazooker, we already know the final skill is going to be another L2 skill (or at least one heavily inspired by L2 and most likely named after its L2 counterpart).

Thus, the final skill should definitely appear in this L2-style pack.

I certainly want to give those of you who are interested something to play already, and any feedback prior to release to the already existing levels is extremely valuable. So I hope this pack might get similar pre-release attention as Lemmings Open Air once I upload the test version.

But the final release I will delay accordingly, depending on how long it will take until we have decided upon and namida has implemented the final skill.

[Strato Incendus]

I have uploaded the first demo version! This includes all levels developed so far, which is 65 out of the total 120 at the moment.

I didn't go up to the 70 announced in my previous post, because I didn't have any new ideas for this particular pack recently, and I didn't want to force any. Especially not if I'm basically just waiting for confirmation of the four final skills, so that we can finally get to start designing actual levels with them! So I'm happy to keep five more level slots open to feature Laserers, Sliders, Spearers, and Grenaders later down the road.

The only problem with this is that the first rank is already completed, as it stands now - and not having the final skills show up at all for the first thirty levels is something I'd like to avoid in the official release. With just two new skills (Shimmier and Jumper), I was fine having this split between the first and the second half of Lemmings Open Air. But I don't want to casually introduce four new skills on the second rank.

So if you decide to take an early peak at the levels in the demo, feel free to tell me which ones on the first rank were the most difficult ones for you! Then I may consider moving them up in difficulty to make place for some Laserer/Slider/Spearer/Grenader introduction levels once they're available.



A couple of levels I had to fix since their initial creation:

- two levels featuring updrafts were affected by the Glider physics change ("Ruins of Athens" and "Blackened sun"). Lemmings Open Air and Lemmings World Tour were both already adapted to this change a while ago, so that tells you how long I've been working on Lemmings Hall of Fame!

- yesterday night, I found out I had to fix all Shadow levels that contained one-way arrows (with the exception of "In the air tonight", where it had already been done, though I don't remember doing it myself). Because apparently, at some point during this year the one-way arrows from the L2 Shadow tileset were deleted and the reference had to be pointed to the default ones instead (which are recoloured to match the old ones, although they have a slightly different texture). I assume this was when the "thicker" arrows with the outlines were introduced?

The problem about the latter fix was that once again, it could not be done in the editor, because the missing object instance would cause the editor to crash in such a way that it could only be closed again via the Task Manager. So I had to go into the level text files and manually rename every single instance of one-way arrows in all of the Shadow levels.

It would be nice if there would be a "warning" mechanism for this. Were the old Shadow arrows marked as deprecated pieces at some point, and I simply didn't notice?
I assume cleanse levels might have worked, because the player had no problem playing those levels even while they were still pointing to the no-longer-existent L2 one-way arrows. I assume the player just falls back to default one-way arrows in case of a missing object of that type?

Anyway, as far as I'm aware, this only affected the Shadow levels. Some of the other L2 tilesets actually do still have their own dedicated one-way arrows, because they looked sufficiently different for the style maintainers to keep them as separate objects.

Since the player didn't give me any error messages on this, even while the levels were still "broken" from the editor's point of view, I don't think it will come up while playing.
But if you experience any error messages of missing object instances on levels from any of the other tribes, please report them to me!

[kaywhyn]

Hi Strato,

I finished the first two ranks, so I just wanted to post my replays for them.

General Remarks

Wow, a lot of these levels look great, and the difficulty is certainly higher than LOA. However, I'm not sure if this is supposed to be the case, but there is just way too much precision for my taste on many of these levels. For example, the very first level requires two pixel precise assignments, and IMO this is not the way any level pack should start. The pack immediately rubbed off on me the wrong way as a result. After all, "first impressions matter," right? I don't mind pixel precision, but if there's too many then I eventually will mind and get annoyed. In the same way I don't mind hidden traps, but put too many in a row and then I will get annoyed. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe there was some discussion about levels requiring pixel precision being bad design?

Also right out the gate 3 1-of-everything levels in a row. I generally like these levels, but by the third time this happened I was like, "Again? This entire rank/pack isn't going to be just levels of this type, is it?" Admittedly, I got annoyed by the third time, but don't worry, it's not you. I have myself to blame here for being irate, since I was playing through the pack at a time when I was grouchy from lack of sleep during the day. I really need to play at a time when I'm more well-rested

Bronze 7 - Back to the cave has a precise assignment,

Spoiler

the bomber, as there's only one possible position that will work. You might want to consider reducing the precision there.

Bronze 15 - Fly on the wings of Lem might had been self-inflicted, and if so that's the blame I put on myself. I have a very bad tendency to get sucked into very fiddly solutions. Then again, two of my contest levels have a lot of precision too but with a constructive skill. Hear me disparage those who make levels with too much precision However, I have to ask if

Spoiler

The first updraft the worker lemming gets to being low to be able to glide upwards is intended. Also, I find it really interesting that the jumper hoisted on the edge of the red shovel like that.

Another huge offender on pixel precision is Bronze 17 - Bad Moon Rising

Spoiler

At least in my solution, RR fiddling seems absolutely necessary and delaying any who get through with shimmiers to avoid any splatting. Not to mention there are 3 very precise digger assignments here. 

Bronze 17 - Walking on the moon is another with very precise assignments, though in this case it's understandable

Spoiler

As setting up the route for a shimmier with builders is always quite precise. I myself made a contest level where I often got frustrated when the shimmier wouldn't keep going when I expected it to.

Bronze 23 - Lembada has 3 very precise assignments. 

Bronze 25 - Anywhere in the galaxy is yet another level with a very precise skill assignment.

Spoiler

There is only one possible position for the jumper to clear the gap when it pops out of the receiver. You might want to allow more leeway there.

Finally, both Silver 9 - Bloodhound and Silver 12 - Counting Stars have a very precise skill (same skill in both cases, interestingly enough) assignment, but in both cases, you're forgiven, since they are integral to the solution. In the latter case, I think I understand this is necessary, as the level wouldn't look as great with maybe the entrance a bit higher.

So yea, that's quite a list. Not necessarily a bad thing in terms of difficulty, as we all know there's a difference between puzzle difficulty vs execution difficulty. Those with pixel precision assignments aren't necessarily hard levels, for example.


Bronze Rank Feedback

I didn't find any of these too difficult for the first rank. I guess to you that's not surprising to hear this However, I believe I was a dummy on Bronze 20 - Blue Monday the longest, with maybe either Bronze 18 - The Lem-Catcher's Song and Bronze 30 - Summer Night City close seconds for longest before I solved them. I don't know if there's supposed to be a lot of precision needed for the final Bronze level, and even if it doesn't, it's still a level quite worthy of that position, as I certainly think it's the hardest level of the rank, but by hardest meaning comparatively speaking to the rest of the rank. I didn't find it overly hard, just annoying to execute only to see stuff fail by a pixel or two

My favorites in the rank are Bronze 4 - Jump around, Bronze 5 - Highland Lemmy, Bronze 16 - Bonny Portmore, and Bronze 18. Even though there is a precise skill assignment in the level, the main trick required in the last one is really neat, and I think you might be right about the level being harder without the fire trap.

I like Bronze 27 - A hard day's knight due to the title referencing a Beatles song. I absolutely love the band, and I even took a college course on The Beatles. Before I took the course, I had practically the entire catalogue of songs memorized. It's been a while since I've listened to any of their songs, though, and so I definitely have forgotten a lot of them. While this level doesn't fall in the realm of pixel precision, it is one of those types of levels that I'm not a fan of due to how you have to spam a lot of skills repeatedly to save enough lemmings while the path is being forged. The solution is cool, though.

Levels that I'm sure I backrouted so badly: Bronze 6 - Walpurgisnacht (didn't use the updrafts), Bronze 12 - Norrsken (many skills leftover), and Bronze 29 - Footsteps in the snow (several skills leftover).


Silver Rank Feedback

Although this rank is currently incomplete in the demo, I like these levels far more than the completed Bronze rank, probably because there wasn't as many levels with very precise skill assignments (only two so far compared to the many I listed for the Bronze rank above). I assume this will continue to hold when I eventually play the completed Silver rank when available.

My favorites of the rank were Silver 1 - Let's get it started, Silver 3 - Sippin' on Bacardi Rum (the level looks really good and I really love the solution, especially watching the glider use the updrafts on the far right), Silver 4 - Wild frontier (really love the design [green is my favorite color, so the Outdoors tribe is one of my favorites visually] and the puzzle is great too ), Silver 6 - Inside the pyramid of light (nice design and challenging puzzle which was satisfying to solve), Silver 8 - Being for the benefit of Mr. Kite (level title refers to the Beatles song of the same name and the solution is awesome), Silver 9 - Bloodhound, Silver 11 - The mad piper (really awesome puzzle/solution), and Silver 13 - Can you feel the Lems tonight? (I love the Elton John song it refers to and I like his songs a lot, it's a really awesome solution despite being repetitive in the skill assignments, not to mention I was stuck here the longest due to falling for a trap here ). See, this list of favorites is far longer than what I listed for the Bronze rank

Spoiler

Re Silver 8 - That's an awesome trick with using a shimmier jump to bomb through the ceiling so that you can jump into the water

Re Silver 9 - That's so awesome with the shimmier being able to get past the terrain despite it being above it. This is something new I learned, as I didn't know they can do that.

Re Silver 13 - For a long time I kept thinking the entire bottom entrance had to be one group of climbers/shimmiers, while the remaining 15 had to be the swimmers. However, here I ran into the problem of using a lemming from the top entrance to bash through the OWW and as a result I wouldn't have enough swimmers for the rest of them (at least 1 short). I kept trying to make it work, until I realized it needed to be the other way around: The entire top entrance are the climbers/shimmiers and the rest swimmers. Really nice difficult puzzle and design which makes you think the solution should be this way, but in reality it's actually another

Levels which I backrouted/think I backrouted: Silver 5 - A night like this (despite having a few skills leftover, it felt hackish), Silver 7 - What a wonderful world (it only "feels" like I backrouted it, though at the same time this seems more or less intended), Silver 10 - When the night comes (severe backroute here), Silver 13 (I think it's a backroute, due to how I have a builder and some shimmiers left, but mostly the builder leftover is what I suspect makes my solution a backroute), Silver 14 - The gang's all here (biggest backroute I've ever seen, way too many skills leftover ), and Silver 15 - Atemlos durch die Nacht (slight backroute I think?)


Just to be clear, this is a great pack and has a lot of potential being a step up from your LOA pack, it's just made worse by how there's a lot of levels with unnecessary pixel precision. I think this is the first time I've seen this from you, actually, in any of your packs. Before playing this pack, all of Gigalem's packs I've played for older NL versions have a lot of pixel precision in the solutions, which definitely tipped me off because there was too much for my taste. His are similar to yours in that the levels are extremely artistic and very well-designed, but again due to the pixel precision needed that's what makes the quality of the levels suffer. Sure, some of your earlier packs had precision as well, just not to the extreme degree that I've seen so far with your HoF demo.

And of course, I'm sure patching up the backroutes for the levels I've listed will make this pack even better. Surely some of the levels shouldn't be THAT easy? 

I will continue with the final two ranks soon and come back with more replays/feedback for the rest later

[kaywhyn]

Back with the rest of the replays, and hence I have attached my entire HoF Demo replay collection, Bronze through Platinum 10. I already gave feedback on both the Bronze and Silver ranks, so this post is feedback for both the Gold and Platinum ranks.

Gold Rank Feedback

Not really any levels that required any precise skill assignments here, other than Gold 4 - Black Winter Day (at least in my solution there's some precise skill assignments) and Gold 6 - Castles of Sand (same as Gold 4, although one is absolutely precise and a bunch of other skill assignments in my solution as well). But wow, a lot of these levels were quite tough. The hardest ones for me in this rank were Gold 3 - Evening Falls and Gold 6. These took me some time, probably a good 20-25 mins for the former, a good half hour or so for the latter. The latter was also a really interesting puzzle where instead of the same number of lemmings come from each trapdoor, there's only 10 for the bottom one. This definitely really made it challenging and really required some thought as to how to get them up.

My favorites in this rank were Gold 2 - Take a bow (despite how it's repetitive and somewhat annoying to spam jumpers so that no one dies, I like how the level requires some thought on how to solve the level with the limited number of builders despite how they seem plentiful, plus it's nice design and my favorite color is green, so the Sports tribe is one of my favorites), Gold 5 - The freak show (nice puzzle and design), Gold 8 - Sandstorm (really great level and solution), and Gold 9 - Maniac (nice puzzle and somewhat great design). Along the same line as Gold 2, Gold 7 - Can't hold us and Gold 10 - Start me up I like for the design more than the puzzle, although I slightly like the former for the puzzle as well, although it does enter the annoying territory of spamming the same skill over and over, although luckily there's more than enough.

Levels that I think I backrouted: Gold 4 (maybe a slight backroute), Gold 7 (probably a slight backroute as well, although my solution might be more or less intended and it's probably an "anything goes" kind of level), and Gold 10 (this definitely seems like a bad backroute).


Platinum Rank Feedback

Wow, these levels are really a huge step up in difficulty compared to the other 3 ranks. Then again, it is the final rank of the pack. Definitely harder than the Hardcore rank of LOA, which I stated was easy despite being the final rank of that pack. Unfortunately, we also return to a mass of levels with a lot of precision. Platinum 1 - Ziggy Stardust, Platinum 2 - My spirit flies, and Platinum 7 - The show must go on all had quite precise skill assignments. Platinum 7 was especially very precise with the square blocks, although I understand that's how the terrain pieces are, as they're that size. Instead, readjusting the positions of them should allow more leeway, so it's easy to reduce precision there.

Spoiler

Re Platinum 1 - This one isn't too bad, although the spot where I mixed the platformers/builders where the really high updrafts are is somewhat precise

Re Platinum 2 - This one is quite precise with the platformer/builder at the very bottom.

Out the gate, Platinum 1 is quite a difficult level. For quite a while, I kept trying wrong ideas to get the crowd down safely. The clicking moment was

Spoiler

when I realized that the updrafts can be used for the splatforms and hence allow me to save platformers/builders that are needed elsewhere.

The hardest levels in this rank for me were Platinum 8 - Free bird and Platinum 10 - Hall of Fame. The former wasn't as bad, but it still took a while to figure out how to get the crowd down safely after successfully isolating a worker lemming to forge the platformers/builders. The latter took the longest and is absolutely deserving of its current position as the final level of the rank in this demo. Platinum 2 also took some time, although only because

Spoiler

I thought the combination of platformer and builder wouldn't work for the gap at the very bottom and hence I kept trying to see if I could use two builders for it instead. So really, I was being a dummy there

My favorites in this rank were Platinum 3 - The monster is loose (I like how you have to do skills in a certain order or you're not going to be able to solve the level), Platinum 5 - Another one bites the dust (I really like the puzzle/solution here), Platinum 6 - Blackened sun (I really like how you made a black hole here), and Platinum 7 (really great puzzle/solution involving some tricky timing)

Spoiler

Re Platinum 3 - You have to build to the left at the beginning and NOT use a jumper, otherwise you won't have enough skills for solve it. Nicely done here

Platinum 9 - Lemmings was my first love was somewhat of a favorite, although it's just slightly a bit wide for my liking. I especially like how despite being nearly an X-of-everything except you have more builders than the other 9 skills, it requires some thought on how to navigate the level with a severely limited amount of builders despite looking plentiful

Spoiler

That's quite genius to build a partial bridge to the left to catch the left-most entrance and then immediately dig after the builder brick is laid down, build into it turn around, and then jump. This must be done past the point where the athletes land and is the only way to ensure you will have enough builders to solve the level. Even then, this is still an open-ended level just from the skillset alone.

Levels that I backrouted: Platinum 4 - You shook me all night long (slight backroute?) and Platinum 6 (surely it's not supposed to be this easy?)


Overall, despite many levels having a lot of precision in the skill assignments, I enjoyed this demo and am looking forward to the rest of the pack. Once again, I emphasize that there's too much precision spread out many of the levels for my taste, but of course this is just my opinion. I don't mind it, but after a while when it keeps showing up I will. It just tends to be bad if it shows up in a very short amount of time repeatedly. That to me is annoying.

This pack is for sure a a huge step up in quality and difficulty from LOA based on the 65 levels I've played and solved. I can honestly say to others to expect to be on these levels for a while, especially the Platinum ones. I can't imagine how the remaining 20 levels of the rank will be if what I saw in this demo were quite difficult ones.

I hope you're doing well and look forward to seeing more content from you Thanks again for this demo!

[Strato Incendus]

Wow, thanks a lot for taking the time to play through all these, kaywhyn!

I'm glad to hear you found the levels more difficult than those in LOA. This should ideally result in a natural succession, a preferrable order in which a player could approach my music-themed packs (Lemmings World Tour first, then Lemmings Open Air, then Lemmings Hall of Fame). This would also go along nicely with the order in which they were made, but more importantly, in terms of new skills being added. If this pack were easier than LOA, for example, it would be weird to play LHF first and then "go back" to a pack without any Laserers and Sliders (which this pack is going to have).

This kind of begs the question how hard Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll is going to be. So far, some of the levels I made for it actually seem easier than those from Lemmings World Tour (and I'm already excluding the Practice levels here). But well, every pack needs its first ranks.

The main criticism I hear from you are repeated mentions of pixel precision. I'll take that on board, obviously - but of course, I'll have to put these points into the context of your replays first before I can further comment on them. I'm glad you already mentioned those levels for which you think the pixel precision might have been self-inflicted. Potentially, there might be more of those cases, i.e. levels for which you found a very pixel-precise solution, but that might actually not be the intended one. (I'll always remember how I criticised the pixel precision in the NepsterLems level "Jump in the Ring!", only to then find out what I had done wasn't the intended solution at all - even though it worked, and continues to do so, i.e. Nepster didn't block my alternative solution.)

I can definitely see it with "Bad moon rising", though I thought that would be more of a timing issue than a pixel-precision one. I don't remember fiddling with the release rate here, so maybe your solution is an alternative one.

If the Stoner assignment on "Vamos a la playa" is precise, that is unintended and might require reducing the overall level height a little. I'll have to check.

Conversely, I would have expected a level like "Blackened sun" to annoy you much more.

Finally, I'm happy to hear the final level was one of the hardest ones for you - that's how it should be!


More details later once I've watched your replays!

[kaywhyn]

If the Stoner assignment on "Vamos a la playa" is precise, that is unintended and might require reducing the overall level height a little. I'll have to check.

The stoner is fine, as there's multiple possible frames to assign it that will work in the solution. I just checked again and turns out only 1 skill is very precise rather than 2

Spoiler

I'm referring to both the fencer and the builder near the exit. However, turns out the builder isn't very precise at all. There's 5 possible frame positions on the palm tree that make the fall safe, and so I incorrectly criticized that. That's what I get for not checking every possible position before incorrectly assuming the builder assignment is precise along with the fencer.

So, only the fencer skill assignment is very precise. You have to fence at the very last possible moment on the palm tree before he turns around. Fence anywhere else and you won't be able to save the crowd from splatting with the because he will be in a worse position to build, as the leaf will be in the way and therefore he will hit his head after a brick or so.

I still stand by reducing the precision needed with the fencer, although this might be justified due to that's how the palm tree is supposed to be as a terrain piece. 

Conversely, I would have expected a level like "Blackened sun" to annoy you much more.

Yea I think I unfortunately backrouted that one Still, I like how you made the black hole in that level and also showing the effect of gravity "sucking" them in via the updrafts leading into it

More details later once I've watched your replays!

Looking forward to reading your feedback

[Strato Incendus]

Alright, I've finished watching your replays for the Bronze rank! Now I can comment in greater detail.

Bronze 7 - Back to the cave has a precise assignment,

As I expected, this turned out not to be necessary, i.e. was self-inflicted on your part.

Spoiler

You can mine to the left to get to the bottom layer - the resulting height is not splat height, measuring from the bottom of the Miner tunnel - and then bomb through the plant regularly later, instead of bombing the Miner. It is possible to walk up that skull, as you yourself have indeed done in a later Cavelem level.

Bronze 15 - Fly on the wings of Lem might had been self-inflicted, and if so that's the blame I put on myself.

Indeed, this was self-inflicted, too.

Spoiler

You had a second Stoner that you didn't use, which allows to create an additional stepping or in this case jumping stone (thereby also avoiding that weird thing with hoisting through the grip of the shovel, which I agree is very weird, but also not intended).

Another huge offender on pixel precision is Bronze 17 - Bad Moon Rising

I saw you solved both "halves" of the level one after the other; the intended solution is to do both sides at once, with two worker lemmings. Maybe that caused some of the fiddling, because that Shimmier usage for merely delaying lemmings from the crowd is definitely not intended.

I thought the Diggers naturally removing the pillars and thereby opening a path to the traps would be enough to enforce this; maybe I need to slap a time limit on this level in addition?

Bronze 17 - Walking on the moon is another with very precise assignments, though in this case it's understandable

Thanks for your understanding - because I'm so glad you've exactly found the intended solution here! This one had a couple glaring but hard-to-prevent backroutes when I first made it and tried to backroute it myself.

Bronze 23 - Lembada has 3 very precise assignments.

Do you mean the staircases? I couldn't quite tell. This one looked largely as intended; you just chose to get past the suction trap via compression method instead of using the pioneer to bomb away the trigger. But since both seem to result in just 1 lemming lost, either is fine.

Bronze 25 - Anywhere in the galaxy is yet another level with a very precise skill assignment.

Yes, this one is supposed to teach that Jumpers will continue their trajectory when coming out of a teleporter (and not just use the width, but also the height gain of the Jumper in the process). I might not have as much leeway here as I would like, but I can try.

Spoiler

Digging through the ufo was not intended, btw; maybe this needs more steel. The Climber-Digger at the end is also not supposed to be cancelled with a Shimmier, but be cancelled naturally by losing ground under its feet. Meaning at this point, the crowd already needs to have escaped the little pit; the Climber can then climb out of it on his own. Thankfully, the crowd is fast enough to do that automatically, given that this same pit compresses them all. The reason you had Shimmiers left to cancel the Digger at the end is indeed because you didn't have to use them earlier, because of that shortcut through the ufo.

However, I believe I was a dummy on Bronze 20 - Blue Monday the longest

That one you solved almost as intended; you just chose to turn around the pioneer with a Builder within the Digger shaft, which I'd say is a little more advanced; the level gives you the option to turn the lemming around at the top first, by simply building against the terrain ceiling, and then start digging once he has turned around.

with maybe either Bronze 18 - The Lem-Catcher's Song and Bronze 30 - Summer Night City close seconds for longest before I solved them.

That's interesting to hear about Bronze 30, because your solution looked somewhat backroute-ish, given that you could simply build up to the exit. But if it took you that long to figure out, maybe I actually shouldn't disable this alternative solution. If a clever kind-of backroute is harder to find than the intended solution... it might actually provide for a more fun challenge whenever somebody chooses to go that route.

As for Bronze 18: Do you think the fire trap should remain? Since we both seem to agree the level would be harder without it.

For anyone interested in why that is the case...

The reason being that the fire trap forces the lemming to dig down the pillar; and digging in that spot is necessary to then later allow the Shimmier to continue all the way over to the exit, because if there's still terrain there, he will stop at the lowest point of the triangle.

I originally thought the level would naturally enforce digging down the pillar, simply to avoid splat height, but didn't realise the lemming already is a Floater at that point, so the player's natural reaction would be to just let him float down, because it's faster, and the player will want to save as much time as possible to get the lemming back to the hatch to build a splatform for the others before too many of them die.

Now I kind of think removing the fire trap would hide the solution a little better... but that might make it too tough for the first rank. But a solution well-hidden in plain sight is kind of a rare case of awesome, so when I clearly have the opportunity to make one here... maybe I should use it? If the level has to switch to a higher rank as a result, so be it. The levels in this pack can move around more freely than on LWT and LOA, because the ranks are not sorted by genre or "heaviness".

My favorites in the rank are Bronze 4 - Jump around, Bronze 5 - Highland Lemmy, Bronze 16 - Bonny Portmore, and Bronze 18. Even though there is a precise skill assignment in the level, the main trick required in the last one is really neat, and I think you might be right about the level being harder without the fire trap.

I like Bronze 27 - A hard day's knight due to the title referencing a Beatles song.

Good to know, thanks!
Bronze 4: Basically as intended.
Bronze 5: You skipped the entire upper section, but a little steel will prevent you from simply jumping over that little tower in the next update.
Bronze 16: Some parts as intended, but I actually used a Swimmer as a second worker lemming. I'll have to see what to do here.
Bronze 27: Well, some might think the title is the level's only redeeming feature ... as it does require a very high amount of skill assignments. You also managed to find a way to ignore the entire bottom section.

Levels that I'm sure I backrouted so badly: Bronze 6 - Walpurgisnacht (didn't use the updrafts), Bronze 12 - Norrsken (many skills leftover), and Bronze 29 - Footsteps in the snow (several skills leftover).

Yep, all true. Walpurgisnacht was an easy enough fix, just replacing some of the blocks at the top with steel blocks. I actually probably thought they were steel when making the level, because they look like they are made of metal. But I think I remember other people having run into the same confusion with the L2 Medieval tileset.

The two Polar levels seem harder to fix; Bronze 29 might just need a lot of steel, but on Bronze 12, you exploited a gap, so I might just have to resort to some ugly and weirdly-placed blue fire / lightning traps.

Also right out the gate 3 1-of-everything levels in a row. I generally like these levels, but by the third time this happened I was like, "Again? This entire rank/pack isn't going to be just levels of this type, is it?"

Oh, I love me some 1-of-everything levels! And they generally seem to be enjoyed by the majority of forum members, so they are a good way to get people into a positive mood about your pack. Sure, three in a row might be a little repetitive, but those are very different skills on each of those levels. That's the beauty of having as many at our disposal as in NeoLemmix. Three 1-of-everything levels with only the classic 8, for example, that would indeed also be a little too much for my liking.


In general, a lot of the backroutes I've seen among your solutions seem to involve Bombers. Meaning: The hardest type to prevent, because they ignore one-way arrows. I haven't really seen any glaring backroutes in terms of e.g. destructive skills cutting through large chunks of terrain not covered by steel so far. Which makes me optimistic I might have gotten better in spotting those. But Bombers can only be stopped by steel (which sometimes interferes with the intended solution, too), or by being turned into a correctly-placed pickup skill.

Thanks again for playing, kaywhyn! More feedback on your solutions to the other ranks soon!

[kaywhyn]

Another huge offender on pixel precision is Bronze 17 - Bad Moon Rising

I saw you solved both "halves" of the level one after the other; the intended solution is to do both sides at once, with two worker lemmings. Maybe that caused some of the fiddling, because that Shimmier usage for merely delaying lemmings from the crowd is definitely not intended.

I initially did both sides at the same time, but the problem for me was that when the diggers were low enough so that the crowd can step up on the pillars ASAP the fall is still fatal. Also, at least with the left crowd, at the current RR the lemmings stack behind one another so that essentially two lemmings will splat.

Bronze 23 - Lembada has 3 very precise assignments.

Do you mean the staircases? I couldn't quite tell. This one looked largely as intended; you just chose to get past the suction trap via compression method instead of using the pioneer to bomb away the trigger. But since both seem to result in just 1 lemming lost, either is fine.

Yup, pretty much the builder skill assignments are all very precise. The first one on the sand castle is extremely precise, as otherwise you cannot mine back down the castle, and there's only one position that allows you to do so. I also checked the other builder assignments again, and turns out the other two aren't as precise, although the one further to the right only looked like it at the time because of the order I was doing things. Because I didn't mine when the worker first turns back, there's only one position that allows him to turn back, and similarly only one position that allows the builder to keep on going instead of turn around. Although, yea I now see what the bomber assignment is for. Here, I simply avoided using it because I allowed the worker lemming to use the third builder in such a way that he turns back to the right.

As for Bronze 18: Do you think the fire trap should remain? Since we both seem to agree the level would be harder without it.

For anyone interested in why that is the case...

The reason being that the fire trap forces the lemming to dig down the pillar; and digging in that spot is necessary to then later allow the Shimmier to continue all the way over to the exit, because if there's still terrain there, he will stop at the lowest point of the triangle.

I originally thought the level would naturally enforce digging down the pillar, simply to avoid splat height, but didn't realise the lemming already is a Floater at that point, so the player's natural reaction would be to just let him float down, because it's faster, and the player will want to save as much time as possible to get the lemming back to the hatch to build a splatform for the others before too many of them die.

Now I kind of think removing the fire trap would hide the solution a little better... but that might make it too tough for the first rank. But a solution well-hidden in plain sight is kind of a rare case of awesome, so when I clearly have the opportunity to make one here... maybe I should use it? If the level has to switch to a higher rank as a result, so be it. The levels in this pack can move around more freely than on LWT and LOA, because the ranks are not sorted by genre or "heaviness".

Hmm, tough call. It might be fine to take it out, as even though I was stumped here for a time, I eventually stumbled upon the trick due to seeing how it takes way too much time to shimmy all the way to the right and by the time you finish mining and everything too many would had splatted already. Therefore, I think the player would eventually realize that the only way around this is with the trick you mentioned in the spoiler, especially since if the trap was removed, you can't afford to have the worker shimmy again without having already removed the terrain in the way, as then you'll be a skill short this way. In addition, all it takes is observing and realizing why the shimmier stops in the first place, although this connection might take a while, like it did with me. So, the level might be quite difficult without it. It's really hard to say.

Yep, all true. Walpurgisnacht was an easy enough fix, just replacing some of the blocks at the top with steel blocks. I actually probably thought they were steel when making the level, because they look like they are made of metal. But I think I remember other people having run into the same confusion with the L2 Medieval tileset.

Yea, I thought where I fenced was steel as well, so I was surprised to see that it wasn't. As you can tell, I intentionally avoided activating CPM to see whether it was steel or not.

Oh, I love me some 1-of-everything levels! And they generally seem to be enjoyed by the majority of forum members, so they are a good way to get people into a positive mood about your pack. Sure, three in a row might be a little repetitive, but those are very different skills on each of those levels. That's the beauty of having as many at our disposal as in NeoLemmix. Three 1-of-everything levels with only the classic 8, for example, that would indeed also be a little too much for my liking.

Again, not your fault. I was grouchy at the time I was playing the pack from lack of sleep. Don't get me wrong, all three of them were great levels, but I definitely quickly noticed how they were all 1-of-everything and I guess I kind of expected more diversity rather than the same type of level thrice in a row

[ericderkovits]

As much as I enjoyed Strato's Lemming Open Air pack, I wanted to solve this demo version of Lemmings Hall of Fame pack as well as it uses the L2 Tile sets.
Although the music was missing in the download. Luckily I have the Lemming2 the tribes music Amiga version in mod form so I used that and put them in the music folder so now I get to hear the
Lemmings 2 tribes music instead of the default ones. For a sample, I have my solutions posted on youtube with the tribes music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGAtmUM9rRU&list=PLZZlEJhdyoAPy6AXhN22Tpux5x_uRXRLx

Many difficult levels. Also got the Talisman for Gold 10(no jumpers used).

Also here are my replays

[Strato Incendus]

Well, that was a surprise - first of all, thanks a lot for playing, eric!

I actually just found out accidentally via YouTube, because your latest Hall of Fame video was suggested to me.

Let's say it caught me a little bit out of the blue to find somebody "Let's Playing" my pack on YouTube without me even having officially released it yet... especially considering there are still loads of known backroutes in here.

Of course, even demo uploads are open for the public, so everyone is free to do with them on their YouTube channel whatever they like - it just would have been nice to at least know this in advance, instead of finding my entire pack completely uploaded on YouTube without any prior knowledge on my part.

Sure, there is/was a similar thing going on with test levels for the new skills - some of which ended up not making it to the stable version - so now there are videos of "unofficial" NeoLemmix material on e.g. IchoTolot's channel, i.e. levels featuring the Spearer and Grenader. But that was for the explicit purpose of showcasing what these skills do to others.

Non-released (and still incomplete packs), in contrast, are not exactly "meant" to be showcased yet. I've uploaded them for pre-release testing.

This is important because currently, none of your videos feature any hint whatsoever (in the title and/or description) that this is an incomplete and yet unreleased pack. (Nor does it contain any mention that the pack was made by me.)
It might just as well be a pack you made, and it might be the final product, from the YouTube audience's perspective - either of which it is definitely not.
And so, without that added information that what you have played is a demo / alpha / test version of the pack, people can easily get the wrong impression of it.
(Especially with regards to any backroutes you may have found.)

But I guess the upside about you having already uploaded them all on YouTube is that I don't have to open the levels and run your replays manually, but can just watch the playlist and let the videos run by "passively".

Just be aware that a lot of what you've "showcased" on your channel thus far can easily change in the future:
There will be a bunch of backroute fixes, there will be additional levels added (featuring the Laser Blaster and Slider), levels might change ranks and/or positions within ranks.
Not because I want to invalidate your video series - this is simply what's bound to happen with a pack yet in development.

Although the music was missing in the download.

Yes, it was missing on purpose - instead I linked to it in the starting post (clearly at the very top, maybe you just overlooked it ), for anyone who doesn't have the original L2 tracks yet, so that those who already have them don't need to download them again if all they need is the pack itself.

The level files itself all refer to the respective tribe's music - otherwise, the fact that you put the L2 tracks into your music folder alone wouldn't have sufficed to make the tracks play on the levels. The fact that they started playing "automatically" after you merely dropped the tracks into the music folder shows you that the level files indeed refer to these tracks already, i.e. that playing this demo version with the original L2 tracks was precisely what I had intended.

[Strato Incendus]

Alright, I've watched kaywhyn's replays for the Silver rank now - to be more precise: The half of the Silver rank I already made - and I was repeatedly asking myself whether I was watching his replays or eric's, because they're surprisingly similar in many regards. So for the majority of the levels, I can just refer kaywhyn to my comments under eric's YouTube playlist, because what I said about eric's solutions largely also applies to kaywhyn's, at least as far as the Silver rank is concerned.

On kaywhyn's replays to the Silver rank

I think both of you have done pretty much the exact same thing on the first two sports levels.

"Let's get it started" was thus a minor backroute for both of them.

"Song 2" seems like a viable alternative solution.

"Sippin' on Bacardi rum" just featured some minor differences in the placement of one Basher between eric and kaywhyn, but apart from that, both found the intended solution.

"Wild frontier": Got the gist of the intended solution, used the Cloner in yet another spot than eric, neither of which are intended.

"A night like this": eric's solution used all the skills, yours saved quite a few. I think I can place the steel in such a way that it prevents kaywhyn's semi-backroute while still allowing for eric's alternative solution.

"Inside the pyramid of light": Fine alternative solution, I don't really have any justification to prevent any of this, the leftover skills were not that crucial.

"What a wonderful world": Similar backroute as eric's, yet yours uses even fewer skills.

"Being for the benefit of Mr. Kite": Got the gist of the intended solution, but this saves a couple too many skills for my liking.

"Bloodbound": Intended. Just like eric, you didn't need the Glider.

"When the night comes": Similar backroute as eric.

"The mad piper": Looks identical to eric's solution to me.

"Counting stars": Also the same as eric's solution.

"Can you feel the Lems tonight?": Here you bashed under the trap to free the crowd at the end. I'm not sure yet whether I want to allow this. You also showed me that you can simply let the pioneer drop, thanks to having a Floater, instead of having to shimmy over to the wall for a save drop. Looks like this level might benefit from having the Floater replaced with a Slider once it's possible.

"The gang's all here": A much more glaring backroute than what eric did, I hope a little more steel helps without blocking the intended path.

"Atemlos durch die Nacht": While eric found a clever way to save the one lemming that naturally falls into the pit under the Platformer, you prevented anyone from falling into the pit in the first place, which makes the last part of the level much easier. I'm not sure yet whether I can enforce this.

As I've written under several of eric's videos, on some of these levels a replacement of a Floater by a Slider might be in order. Which is one of the reasons why I haven't released any update with backroute fixes yet. It's not just about not making any new levels until the Slider and Laser Blaster are officially available: Some of the levels that already exist could also be improved by using Sliders instead of Floaters (e.g. "Counting stars", from among those listed in the spoiler tag here).

[Strato Incendus]

And now I've had the chance to look at the remaining 20 of kaywhyn's replays, i.e. for the Gold and Platinum rank.

On kaywhyn's replays to the Gold rank

"Ruins of Athens": Acceptable alternative solution; used the Blocker in a different spot but still required most of the skills.

"Take a bow": As long as you have to use some type of flow control, which you did, this is fine. This level is supposed to be a fairer version of the original L2 level "Take Up Archery" (hence the name). But it probably would have benefitted the most if the Spearer had actually been introduced, since that's the closest thing to the Archer we had in NeoLemmix.

"Evening falls": Same trick that eric used, bombing into the ceiling to make the next Shimmier drop and allow him to turn around. As I've said under eric's video, I think I'll have to make the ceiling into steel there so that you have to find a different way to turn the lemming around (hopefully the intended one ).

"Black winter day": The second half of the level was pretty much as intended (and the one part that wasn't exactly as intended there is something I can't enforce, I've already realised a while ago). The beginning however should have fewer degrees of freedom. Hopefully something I can accomplish with one-way arrows.

"Welcome to the freak show": A lot as intended here, but in the beginning the flexible placement of the Digger and the Platformers adds more liberties than I would like this level to have. I hope I won't have to narrow the Digger shaft down to 1 or 2 pixels...

"Castles made of sand": Vey similar to eric's solution, which slightly differs from the intended one at the beginning. I think I should keep allowing this, though. I also don't see a way of preventing it without blocking the intended solution, too.

"Can't hold us": Fine alternative solution; the main thing I'm looking for here is whether anybody actually does find a way to hold back the crowd after all. As long as that doesn't seem possible, I'm happy with the result. I can't say there won't be any modifications to this at all, but it's not necessarily likely.

"Sandstorm": Nice alternate route through the ceiling. This used almost all the skills, so it could be fine in principle. I haven't decided on it yet, though. I might end up blocking the path the Basher took at the end, I might not.

"Maniac": Awesome way of bashing the crowd out at the beginning to land on the stoning pioneer! This misses the main trick, though, and it also made the ending a little more straightforward than I would like it to be.

"Start me up": A little partial backroute; I think I should make that wall on the right into steel, at least in part, so that the bottom-right crowd has to take a slightly different route than just platforming over one gap and waiting for a Miner from above.

On kaywhyn's replays to the Platinum rank

"Ziggy Stardust": Many things are as intended here, but that second one-way wall is not supposed to have that small dent that allowed the Climber to turn around. That wall will be straight in the next update. Thanks for showing me this loophole!

"My spirit flies": This would be a nice alternative solution in and of itself, saving only one Fencer. However, it misses the main trick, by allowing you to assign the Shimmier too easily. I think if I make the terrain lower where you jumped off, the distance to the ceiling should be too far to simply jump / reach up there.

"The monster is loose": Intended.

"You shook me all night long": Yeah, this feels a little backroute-ish, I'll have to see where exactly you went for a shortcut.

"Another one bites the dust": Very close to intended. You platformed slightly higher than I did, which shortened the distance, allowing you to save 1 Platformer.

"Blackened sun": eric already showed me you can just bomb through the walls with the Gliders themselves, instead of giving them aid from above as it is intended to be. I might just have to resort to pickup skills here.

"The show must go on": Very similar to eric's solution, i.e. similarly close to the intended one and missing just one minor detail: I want one worker lemming to walk on top of the platform leading to the exit, and the other to shimmy underneath the Platformer bridge. The lemming digging at the exit from the top then also cancels the Shimmier below. The level already features a bunch of pickup skills anyway, so I might just have to turn another vital skill into a pickup and place it somewhere where only a Shimmier can reach it.

"Free bird": This is an awesome alternative solution by itself, you essentially solved the level backwards! It misses all the main tricks, most critically the one that gives the level its name. However, since you said how difficult it was to find this alternative solution, even though it looks a little more straightforward from just watching the replay alone, that gives me more of a reason to keep allowing it. Not just because I "don't want to ruin your hard work in solving the level this way" - that's something that is always a possibility when playing a pack still in its development phase. But more importantly, if this alternate solution is still enough of a challenge for the Platinum rank, I don't see a reason why I should treat it like a "backroute" that requires fixing if it's actually no bit easier than the intended solution. And even if this one misses the namesake trick, at the end of the day, the title might just refer to the level's difficulty. Because it tends to be one of the hardest songs in a bunch of guitar-based videogames.

"Lemmings was my first love": This one is open-ended, as you guessed. Thus, none of the tricks you did are required, but I won't block any of them either. In certain parts of the level, I could restrict the landscape a little more with one-way arrows if I feel it has too many degrees of freedom. But currently, I don't really see the need to.

"Hall of fame": Again, a level you solved very differently than intended - especially the beginning made me fear this would involve a Stoner backroute of some sort. Stoning under the narrow gap right in front of the exit and sending a lemming up through the shaft was intended - in fact, you can't do it any other way, because it's impossible to climb over the one-way wall from the other side without going beyond the ceiling. Despite the parts you did differently, you still ended up having to perform a bunch of obscure tricks, and none of the few skills you had leftover at the end seemed like "essential skills".

That's a concept you just made me come up with and probably something worth discussing in the level design forum: Generally speaking, terrain-modifying skills are more essential than athletic or movement skills, because the latter only create paths for single lemmings, whereas the former are needed to create a path for the crowd. So having e.g. a Shimmier or a Climber leftover feels less "backroute-ish" than having remaining destructive skills or, usually worse, remaining constructive skills, with the Builder as one of the most powerful skills probably being the one your rarely want to see a player having excess of. Just a rule of thumb, of course.