[SUG][PLAYER] Fix misleading traps!

[Proxima]

I'm sick of having to design around what is an obvious misdesign in the original graphics sets. Lemmings' "pin" (the pixel that determines where the lemming "really" is) is one pixel below the floor, okay. So traps' trigger areas should extend one pixel below the floor as well. Especially traps that have a visible part to show where the trigger area is. This should sit on the floor; it shouldn't have to be buried. This is 2018 and we do not mislead the player! It is the golden rule of modern level design!

Here's a run-through of all traps in the original and ONML tilesets:

Dirt: Bear trap and rock trap have extended trigger areas. 10-ton weight has a trigger area that stops above ground so it has to be buried 2 pixels
Fire: Firepit's trigger area stops above ground.
Pillar: Rope trap has a "blob" of terrain that's meant to be buried, but even the metal support has to be buried to get the trigger area to work.
Crystal: Trap 1 is meant to be buried, enough remains visible. Trap 2 is okay. Trap 3 has to be buried.
Marble: Squisher has to be buried.
Brick: Wheel has an extended trigger area. Squisher has no indicator.
Rock: Weed trap has an extended trigger area.
Snow: Icicle has no indicator. (But note the the trigger area extends below the rectangle of the trap. It's almost as if the designers realised this was a problem and fixed it in the ONML sets! All the more reason we should fix the Orig sets to match.)
Bubble: Suction pipe has no indicator; again trigger area extends below the trap rectangle.

[Nepster]

I would welcome better trigger areas for these traps. But given the huge discussions about whether to allow multiple teleporters map to the same receiver (which compared to this is an extremely minor issue!), I don't have the energy to really go into this discussion as well.
So: If you manage to convince the community to do this change, then great! But don't expect me to put a lot of energy in this discussion.

[Simon]

Traps in L1 sets should kill exactly as Proxima wants.

Pin in the ground is a terrible convention. Unsure whether to fix.

Related: Display trigger areas offset by 1 pixel; if pin stays in the ground, then at least this should be accepted because the terrible pin in the ground confuses newb and experienced tileset designer alike.

-- Simon

[Nepster]

Simon, I understand that the 1-pixel-offset is your pet peeve, but this thread is not the place to discuss it, especially as the discussed changes to the L1 traps are totally independant from your issues! This is about:
1) Whether to modify the game pyhsics of the L1 traps
2) Whether to modify the visual appearance of the L1 traps
So we are discussing the question "How can we make the traps clearer for players?", not the question "How can we display trigger areas better for level designers?".

[Flopsy]

I personally never had an issue with the current trigger areas, I understand that if a Lemming walks along a trigger area and there is no trigger area in the pixel below its feet which is where its trigger area is then the trigger won't activate.

I always made sure when designing triggers for my tilesets that I always made the trigger area go below the actual object by a pixel or two to allow for this. I adapted and I feel so can other people.

[IchoTolot]

Triggers that end too far upwards:
I can see extending the triggers by a few pixels downwards can be beneficial, but I don't see the slight adjustments you have to make in placing as a big problem. I don't think this would affect many levels and if it does that would be mostly ones where you need to go under traps.

Triggers that extent a few pixels into the ground:
I don't mind them and I am against a fix there. I don't see a problem with lems getting hit 1-2 pixels under the trap and I am generally in favor of a bit more "aggressive traps" that cover a bit more than the pin.

Extra indicators:
I am against the indicators on the icicle, brick squisher and suction pipe trap though. They often make excellent decoration objects on ceilings and even mid-air traps to catchbuilders - an indicator would destroy that option and ruin quite a few decorations.

So, extending triggers by a few pixels downwards I would call ok, but I am against trigger shortening and extra indicators. You still can see when these traps hit you + we've got true physics.

In general I don't mind the problems listed here to be honest.

Another idea:

We could also adjust the graphic itself rather than the trigger area - that would still lead to physics consistancy and only small visual things need to be checked.

[Proxima]

I always made sure when designing triggers for my tilesets that I always made the trigger area go below the actual object by a pixel or two to allow for this.

The issue is precisely that if it has become a convention to extend trigger areas to avoid misleading, then all traps should do this. Otherwise the player can't tell (without going into clear physics mode) which traps mislead and which don't.

And while it's great that CPM exists as a backup, it should never be required to work out what a level design is actually communicating to the player. The level itself should contain all the information needed for the player to solve it.

I don't see the slight adjustments you have to make in placing as a big problem

I should add, the issue that provoked me to abandon editing for today and post this topic was that the squisher trap in Marble doesn't work without being moved down, which means it no longer conforms to the grid and has a weird air pixel above it instead of hanging nicely from the ceiling.

Extra indicators

I wasn't suggesting extra indicators, just that traps that have indicators should have trigger areas that match what the indicator is communicating.

[IchoTolot]

I should add, the issue that provoked me to abandon editing for today and post this topic was that the squisher trap in Marble doesn't work without being moved one pixel down, which means it no longer conforms to the grid and has a weird air pixel above it instead of hanging nicely from the ceiling.

L1 actually has a grid? I think all the pieces are gridless anway, with a lot of weird seize numbers.

And having 1 piece in a set that needs grid adjustment I wouldn't call a huge deal to be honest, that would need significant changes. I would simply solve your problem with moving the ceiling down 1 pixel with it or extend the ceiling.

Again trigger changes with the extenion of 1-2 pixels rows below the current trigger or a slight graphic change I would call ok.

[namida]

I set most of the NL trigger areas in official sets, so let me chime in here: Mostly, if the trigger area seems off, it's based on (my judgement of) how the trap looks visually. Using the ten-ton trap example, I felt that it would look weird with the plate exactly in the ground. Maybe this should've been discussed. It mostly happened during the early era of NeoLemmix, back when there was little interest, so most decisions ended up being based purely off my own judgement.

Regarding going forward, best not to change physics if not absolutely necessary. Can graphical changes (most likely, for the most part it'd just be offsetting) address the issue?

[Proxima]

I'm not convinced that changing physics is not the way to go. Firstly, changing numbers in a few text files is a lot easier and quicker than mucking around with the graphics. Secondly, it's true that this would break levels where the architect placed the trap so as to look deadly but actually be safe -- but hopefully there are not many such levels anyway! If the trap is already placed slightly below ground so as to be deadly with existing physics, this would only make the trigger area extend a little further below ground. Some replays may break if a bomber was used to get past the trigger area, but a solving replay could still be produced by placing the bomber more precisely.

[Dullstar]

Under the assumption we're discussing expanding the lower boundary of the trigger area and leaving the upper boundary as-is:

The only possible issue I see with this change is the possibility of breaking existing content, but in this case the "existing content" in question would almost certainly have to be poorly designed. Can anyone think of a situation in a well-designed (I realize this is subjective) level where extending the proposed change would cause a problem? Because, to me, this situation sounds like it would only have the potential to break levels that rely on having traps floating in the air for some probably dumb reason in situations where that doesn't visually make sense, and if I've ever made anything like that, I am perfectly okay with it being broken by this sort of change, because that's just bad design.

I would rather alter these trigger areas than alter the graphics; after all, no level designer should be making levels that require knowledge of the exact size/location of trigger areas in order to solve, so I find it unlikely that any well-designed content will be broken.

I believe the benefits of making this trigger area change greatly outweigh the disadvantages.

Related: Display trigger areas offset by 1 pixel

For the record, I think this is a good idea as well.

[nin10doadict]

I do wonder if shoving the trigger areas down a pixel or two would be the best way to go. What about levels that require bashing/digging/etc just low enough to get under a trap? I feel that modifying the graphics might be better. I could change the spritesheets for those traps in an hour or two, I think. Then again, while this wouldn't break any replays, it might break certain aesthetic choices. I suppose if we change anything we'll have to decide which would be the lesser of two

The whole 'pin in ground' convention is something I've gotten used to, but the operative word there is "gotten." It wasn't how I thought it should work at first. It may be best not to muck with this for now, and perhaps open discussion on it later.

[IchoTolot]

I think a trigger area expansion is the best suited here. If we decide to change something.

Changing the graphic will cause EVERY level to be checked for asthetic errors.

Expanding the trigger 1-2 pixels downwards will likely only break a few replays and maybe some single levels will need slight adaptations.

[Proxima]

I just noticed that in Fun 15, the rope trap has its metal support buried only one pixel -- in NL that's not enough to make it active, the metal bar has to be completely buried. So, how did we deal with this issue in Redux?

We just didn't notice it. The trap is indeed not active in the NL version.

So, add "accuracy to the original game" as another reason in favour of this change.

[nin10doadict]

Ok, yeah, Fun 15 being broken like that is pretty bad. Admittedly if you ever go into that pit you've screwed up, but still.
That little thing has pushed me more toward adjusting the trap triggers. I can think of at least one of my levels that will likely break because of this: "Fall down go boom!"
If the hitbox on the ghostbuster-type trap gets bigger then this level just won't work because...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

...it involves going underneath the trap and covering the trigger with a couple of stackers. A taller trigger won't get covered.