[DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Secret levels / level unlocking in general

[Wafflem]

I thought secret levels were a cool feature at first, but in the end they got frustrating. Pretty much everyone has stated their points - they miss out on potentially cool content. People won't make the effort to look for secret levels. I really like Apjjm's suggestion of "Percentage Completion"; this has already been done in the talisman section. I also really like people's suggestion that the levels can be instead in a bonus rank.

I'm really liking namida's suggestion of a single menu where all packs can be viewed in a similar vein to Cheapo, WinLemm and SuperLemmini; you get a whole list of pack/levels right in front of you and it'll be easier to pick which one you want to play next.

I also really think Unlock-All should be permanent for NeoLemmix. As everyone said, it is unfair if the really awesome levels are tucked away in later ranks, and if one gets completely stuck on a level prior they completely give up. As a child, I got stuck on Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland" and Tricky 23 "From the Boundary Line". It took me a year or so until I completed the former. For the latter, I eventually gave up completely on Lemmings until I later found a walkthrough and the passwords online (keeping in mind that at the time, we were only able to connect to the internet by modems and I had other busy things going on). Also, do note that this was the DOS version, so the save requirements are very different.

I also play DROD, but I completely gave up in the Second Sky in the level that involves using a pickaxe and keg barrels ("Shattered Mine"). That mechanic has proven to be extremely difficult for me. This game has a lot of cool game elements like temporal token, but I'm really missing out on those just because of that one level. Perhaps I'll solve this level eventually.

One observation I would like to make - if people prefer levels to be locked and prefer to completely play in order from the very first level, then why is every difficulty rank unlocked? Shouldn't it be so that only the first difficulty rank is unlocked?

Another reason for unlock-all: one could potentially learn a trick in a later level, which they can use to solve the level they got stuck on.

If people don't like Unlock-All, they can just simply play the levels in order. No need to skip levels.

[Nepster]

It seems only Proxima is in favor of keeping them.

To be fair: In the Gimmick cull thread some more were in favor of keeping secret levels:
- möbius
- GigaLem (though with alternative methods for unlocking them)
- 607 (though with unlocking via talismans and completing ranks)
and perhaps I missed someone else.

[namida]

Let's take a look at their comments. Let me know if I've missed any.

Definitely don't remove secret levels! I find that concept a lot of fun, much like challenges. It’s an extra aspect of the game that isn’t required to solve the game but there for players who want further play-ability.

and as for secret level, why not make 'em alternate exits? or Exits of a different color like if i wanted to make a level with a secret level trigger, I put an extra choice to go to the otherside of the level, and solve the level there, honestly Secret could be handled better

So... I don't like secret level triggers, unless it's very clearly stated where you need to go. I do like unlocking secret levels by completing every level in a rank or getting talismans.

So - we have one "I like it" but without much further elaboration; two that say something that could be considered a more-specific variation on "make the trigger visible", one of whom also does say they're in favor of keeping the unlock by talismans (or by completing a rank, which would be a new method that isn't currently supported).

None of them elaborated very much on these points, unlike Proxima, or many of the people arguing against them. I'd also note that of the people arguing for them, to the best of my knowledge only mobius has actually used them, and even then only in a compilation pack he was coordinating. However - I think this is one case where the user's view of them will also matter more than the creator's - if a creator hides a level as secret, they've made the decision that they don't mind that some people may never see or play this level; however as a user, it means there's content hidden from you that, while you may be able to solve, you may never even know is there, let alone see it, unless you stumble on the unlock method. This is of course mitigated by that, especially in the case of talisman-activated levels, it can be pointed out that they exist.

It's a bit hard to get an experience-based opinion here, as the majority of cases where level packs have included secret levels, it has been via secret level triggers. I think Revenge of the Lemmings might've had a few that were done via talisman? The NeoLemmix Introduction Pack only unlocks them via talisman - although there is a tutorial level for the secret level trigger, it instead takes you to the next regular level when you find it. Those two aside, the only case I can think of where one was unlocked by a method other than a secret level trigger was one level in Lemmings Plus III Bonus Pack, which was unlocked by finding the code (parts of which were written in various regular levels) and entering it as a level password.

Much of this would be compounded even further with a change to "always unlock all levels" (which is not yet a confirmed change, by the way) and a tree-based level selection. Though the possibility is there to list the level, but mark it as "locked" until the player manages to unlock it. This way, at least, they know it exists, and perhaps some kind of hint can be given as to how to unlock it. I still really am leaning more towards removing the secret level feature altogether, though.

[mobius]

I don't really mind anymore one way or another but here's more elaboration on why I like the idea:

Why do people keep playing old games like Lemmings, pokemon red/blue, Super Mario etc? Because even after 20 years people are still discovering new things about them. As an adult you can discover a new thing about a game you played as a child you didn't know before. So one point is that secret levels add replay-ability. In a way, imo at least, they're very much like achievements. If a part of a game is optional to complete then it could also be seen as a form of challenge.
It's something a little mysterious, which some people, myself included really enjoy, some find irresistible.

I like the idea of not making them "totally secret". That is; somehow let the player know they exist and maybe give clues to where they are.*

In Revenge of the Lemmings the levels I made secret were all levels which were either;
-similar to an existing level in a normal rank.
-of unpopular level design/unique/unusually difficult
-levels that were only liked by a few people
-a few levels which were added at the last minute after the level limit was already reached

I think what I like better than a secret level is just the achievement of finding a secret trigger in a level.

-On Level unlocking; I like Cheapo's menu/tree thing.

*Yes, this is another form of gameplay not ordinary to Lemmings. As everyone here seems to want to confine Lemmings to one strict form of gameplay secret levels will probably be removed.

[namida]

It seems like this is a case where the decision is always going to be split, so it falls onto me to decide between option A or option B.

Based on the arguments I've seen for both sides so far, as well as simplicity of coding, and general usability concerns, I think the best choice moving forward is to remove secret levels altogether. Yes, some people are going to be unhappy about this - but this was going to happen either way. One last reason for this - I think it makes sense, if we're removing secret levels, to do so in the same update as gimmick removal. Since that update isn't very far away now by the looks of things, a decision had to be made fairly soon.

Just for the record on what effects this should have in the new version:
- Secret level triggers will do nothing. They will remain invisible, so there won't suddenly be weird colored squares in your levels.
- Talismans that unlock secret levels will no longer unlock anything. Unless the requirement for the talisman was "Find a secret level trigger", or they were hidden talismans, they will continue to function in every other way.
- Any levels (or entire ranks) set as secret will now function just like any normal level would; they won't become inaccessible.


My mind still isn't made up completely in regards to whether or not to always have all levels unlocked, but I'm also leaning towards yes on this one.

[namida]

I think at this point, it's safe to say that always unlock all should be the only behaviour too, so in future, that's how it'll be. This, of course, also will simplify things when implementing an improved level selection system.

If anyone has any arguments as to why it should not always be unlock-all, feel free to present them, but at this point it's unlikely that not-unlock-all will be the end result.

[Proxima]

I don't have a quarrel with that, but I want to add a few words before the topic gets closed. In the other linked topic Simon completely misrepesented me and made me sound like an insensitive jerk ("you will then enjoy the game more when other people can't use some option you wouldn't want to use"). That is not, and has never been, my position. I enjoy the satisfaction of gradual progression through a game and unlocking previously locked content. It makes no difference to me at all what options are available on your copy.

It may sound strange that I prefer things that way, but I do. There are several packs of extremely difficult content with unlock-all, such as the top ranks of Clam's Lix set or any of the Lemmings Plus sets. I end up not playing them -- I would like to, but I never really get round to doing so. Simon is correct that having all levels ticked off (in Lix) is a reward in itself, but when that is so far away, getting through the levels feels like too much of a slog with no intermediate rewards. In NeoLemmix you don't even get the tick marks. (This makes me curious: how do the veterans who've played many NeoLemmix packs with unlock-all keep track of their own progress?)

My preference would be for unlock-all to be something decided by the user (and on a per-pack basis) rather than the pack designer -- then everyone gets the experience they want. I accept that this may be too much coding work for something not many of us want, so I won't argue further if you don't want to implement it.

[namida]

(This makes me curious: how do the veterans who've played many NeoLemmix packs with unlock-all keep track of their own progress?)

NeoLemmix does keep track of it, but currently there's no easy way to display it. I hope to change this in the near future. The "not so easy" ways to check would be either examining the save file (only possible since recently, as earlier versions used an encrypted, binary format; but versions from V1.43n-C onwards use an unencrypted, text-based format), or making use of the fact that when you first enter a rank from the main menu, it takes you to the first unlocked, unbeaten level of that rank. I believe most people tend to play the levels in order anyway, even though not forced to; however, I can think of a case where a player got stuck through no real fault of their own* so made use of the everything-being-unlocked to progress. Then we also have players like Simon who prefer not to play every level in a large pack, but rather wait and see which levels people think are good, and play only the best ones - in the case of Lemmings Plus, the Flashbacks packs serve this purpose well, but in the case of many other packs, no such equivalent exists.

I don't know how easy it would be to implement your suggestion; I still don't know much about how I'm going to implement an improved level selection beyond vague ideas of how the end result should look / function (in particular, I haven't thought much about the internal workings of it). If it's fairly simple, I could consider it, but I can't make any promises.

* Flopsy86's Lemmings Plus I videos. He was using a newer version of NeoLemmix that had removed direct drop, but an older copy of Lemmings Plus I that required direct drop on Psycho 6.

[607]

Ah, finally a change I agree with
I saw I was quoted from the gimmicks thread, but I did indeed not give any arguments, and after reading the good arguments against here, I changed opinion.
For NeoLemmix, it doesn't fit. I'd rather have the secret levels in a different rank and be able to play them whenever I want, or have them mixed with the levels in the other ranks.
I think the talismans are quite a nice addition and don't need to unlock secret levels. Doing the talismans is optional, and to me, they already give satisfaction by simply showing they've been beaten. If people don't care about the talismans but do care about the other levels, they should be able to play them without needing to get the talismans first.

For NeoLemmix, I'm also in favour of unlock-all. I'll still play the levels in order, and I can. This way, anyone can play their way. It's perfectly fine to only advance to the next level once you've beaten the current one, and you can also scroll through them to see which one you'll play. It just needs to be clearer which levels you've beaten and which you haven't.
I was trying to explain why I am a bit sceptical about the dropdown menu thing, as I felt how WinLemm had it took away from the feel the original games had, but I can't explain feels very well so figured nobody would understand anyway so I scrapped it.
But still, I really like the main menu with the title and the rank signs and such, it really adds a feel to it for me.