[DISCUSSION] [PLAYER] Secret levels / level unlocking in general

[namida]

BitBucket: https://bitbucket.org/namida42/neolemmixplayer/issues/15/overhaul-progression-system

So - following on from this topic, let's discuss the future of secret levels.

I've already decided to cull the secret level trigger object (the one which involves a secret level being unlocked by reaching a hidden point in a normal level (or, in one former case, in another secret level)). This is not up for discussion.

But what is up for discussion is secret levels in general. In particular, the other currently-supported way of unlocking them is that secret levels can be unlocked when a talisman is obtained. This one, I am more open to keeping if there's enough interest. (A third way which is technically supported is to hide the code for them somewhere - the former Lemmings Plus III Bonus Pack used this for one level, by scattering parts of the code among various normal levels. I would rather not encourage this approach.)

I'm also open to allowing other ways of accessing them, if any really good ones are suggested. I'm equally open to culling the secret level feature altogether, and ultimately that is what I'm currently leaning towards.

EDIT: I have decided to remove secret levels altogether.


Adding to this - if we decide against secret levels (or even if we don't), what about unlocking of regular levels? Currently, the choice is between L1 behaviour of "beat each level to unlock the next", or the more-commonly-used "every non-secret level is always unlocked" behaviour. Should we change this to always having the latter behaviour - keeping in mind that most players, if they're interested in playing the whole pack, will tend to play levels in order and not skip anyway? Should we perhaps have a PS3-like option, where 5 or so levels per rank are unlocked initially, and beating any one of them unlocks the next? Or any other ideas?

EDIT: Unlock all will be the only behaviour in future. Progress tracking will be improved.

[Proxima]

As I've said before, I'm strongly in favour of keeping secret levels (but not triggers). Evidence from the other topic shows several designers like the feature and want to use it in their packs, so why not?

As I also pointed out, secret rooms and levels are a long-running feature in the DROD series, and have always been popular with players -- there is the excitement of unlocking them, and the mystery of knowing that a secret exists, and trying to work out how to get to it. However, DROD players (on the whole) prefer and appreciate secrets where the entrance is clearly visible, but still difficult to reach. This would correspond either to talisman-secrets, or to another kind I suggested in last night's chat: use a visible exit as a secret level trigger, and distinguish it in some way from regular exits.

Another point borrowed from DROD (but used in other games as well, of course): secrets can serve the purpose of being bonus challenge levels above the difficulty of the main pack.

I also suggested that an additional way to unlock a secret would be completing all levels of a rank. This allows a designer to have all non-secret levels start out unlocked, and still provide a reward for completing them.

[Simon]

Moving between Drod rooms is part of the game, but moving between NL levels is not. When we map NL levels to Drod rooms, that map doesn't preserve game structure.

The reward for completing an NL pack is a directory full of working replays. Secrets would add a second, weaker goal in NL. Discovering content is not a strong reward -- full argument below the second quote.

Lovely article: Design of secrets in Donkey Kong Country 2. DKC2 is exclusively about finding secrets. Beating the final boss without finding all secrets is comparatively easy. Neolemmix is not like DKC2.

-- Simon

[namida]

Since the idea came up in the chat, and it's related, I decided to also include the nature of unlocking regular levels in this discussion too. So feel free to also leave your comments about that here.

[Nepster]

What follows is just my personal opinion: I have yet to find one game (Lemmings or otherwise) where I found unlocking secret levels rewarding (though I haven't really played DROD yet). Most of the time, I am even totally unaware of the existence of secret levels and only read about them on the internet once I finished the game. But by then I am much too lazy to go back an unlock the secret levels. In NeoLemmix the only secret levels I ever played (and will ever play) were the ones that were regularly selectable in the beta versions for playtesters.
So to all level designers thinking about adding secret levels: Be aware that some players will love secret levels, but others will never play them.

Another point borrowed from DROD (but used in other games as well, of course): secrets can serve the purpose of being bonus challenge levels above the difficulty of the main pack.

Then one could just add them as an additional rank in the level pack together with a brief description explaining their function. As Simon said: In Lemmings you don't move from room to room and so incredibly hard levels in an additional rank don't hurt the rest of the game.

I also suggested that an additional way to unlock a secret would be completing all levels of a rank. This allows a designer to have all non-secret levels start out unlocked, and still provide a reward for completing them.

In level packs where I have played and solved all levels, the save file almost never records all levels as solved, because I have ended a level early (when I am too lazy to timeskip to the end) or because I already played a level in an earlier or demo version. I am even fairly sure that none of my own versions of NepsterLems contains even one fully completed rank, even though I have working replays for all levels.
I am aware that my playstyle might be an exception to the rule, though.

[IchoTolot]

As I said quite a few times in IRC:  Everything should be visible, everything should be playable!

It's a puzzle game, not a game about finding hidden stuff!

I want to play and solve levels and not finding them! So the invisible triggers are a no-go and even the "unlock type" of secret levels is not a fun addition.

[Gronkling]

Secrets work when you are unlocking things such as extra characters, fun dialogue/extra worldbuilding, things like that. They don't really work however if they just unlock more gameplay with nothing else with it, especially in a game with completely separate levels. With lemmings there isn't really anything other than gameplay, there's no story or multiple characters or anything. So secret's don't add anything, for me anyway.

[namida]

As I said quite a few times in IRC:  Everything should be visible, everything should be playable!

I remember in the past you were in favor of not having everything unlocked from the start (regular levels). However, I also notice you've recently changed your packs to unlock-all. Does this mean you no longer feel that don't-unlock-all should be an option (or that it isn't too important)?

[IchoTolot]

As I said quite a few times in IRC:  Everything should be visible, everything should be playable!

I remember in the past you were in favor of not having everything unlocked from the start (regular levels). However, I also notice you've recently changed your packs to unlock-all. Does this mean you no longer feel that don't-unlock-all should be an option (or that it isn't too important)?

From my post in the unlock all topic (http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2136.msg51613#msg51613):

For a long time my opinion was against unlock all. It's not Lemmings like and you need to progress to the final boss level.
But after this thread appeared I thought about it and now I ask myself why Lemmings wasn't unlock all in the first place!

It has to do with a (and maybe even the) main point of the game:

You get stuck! (and sometimes over weeks and months)

It's is a puzzle game, so you need to think about a solution to a puzzle. Here the puzzle is to manipulate the terrain to get from A to B.
If you think about a solution and don't get it right away you are stucked at this point.
If you don't get stucked in a pack (getting all the solution after a few tries) the whole puzzle aspect of this pack falls short.
And remember: What are the levels which you will remember forever?
The ones you got stuck really hard and solved them finally after days, months or even years. And often they are the best ones! Example: The original games!
"No added colors or Lemmings" and  "There's madness in the method" are the levels where nearly everyone got stuck (I got stuck for a year back in the days and there are my favorites).

But there is one point that keeps pushing these type of puzzles down:

The levels from this point onward lay dead!

If you get stuck hard you often need to take breaks from this level. What do you do?
Play another rank or take a break from the game.
If you are stuck for a long time you maybe loose interest in the pack even if you played just a part of it, because you cannot access the rest! (which usually has a lot of levels where you won't get stuck)

And that's the point why unlock all is in my opinion the best option.
A big part of the game lays dead and some people might loose interest after some time. With unlock all they can explore the game further on and come back to the level they couldn't solve before. (And they will, because that level will haunt them in their dreams! I know it from myself!)
Now they can see the pack in all it's glory and save the frustraiting part for the end.
But don't leave out the frustraiting part, because as explained above it is often the best one when you have beaten it!

At the end of this post a little quote from me I said to Simon at our meet up as we spoke about this topic (translated):

"Frustraition at it's core, if you are too dumb at this point to get the solution, but that is one of the main point of the game"

[ccexplore]

Having skimmed through the thread so far, I think the best point made is basically what Nepster pointed out, which I'll paraphrase as follows:

Lemmings don't historically have secret levels in any of its official games, so not everyone expects their existence, and clearly from just this thread alone, they'll likely have a mixed reception.  In making a level secret, you are looking at a tradeoff between those who will have enhanced enjoyment over unlocking them, versus those who never discovered them or bothered to unlock them later, versus those like Icho who would probably be rather annoyed that they exist.

I'm less in agreement with some of the other points made on the thread, but I'll defer discussion to when I actually have more time to type more, especially when those other points are IMO less relevant than the point above.

[Clam]

Locking (or hiding) levels doesn't make sense to me whichever way I look at it.

As a player, I want to look over the levels and start with those that interest me most. This almost certainly won't be the first level (as chosen by the designer). Thus I'd prefer to see all the levels in a menu, as they are in Lix. The eventual goal is to solve them all, but the order of solving doesn't matter.

As a level designer, I want people to play my levels. Locking them doesn't help towards this end

[ccexplore]

I think the comparison to DROD secret rooms might be a bad comparison that sort of derailed the thread into the wrong direction to start with (the whole "exploration" comparison), given that namida already said secret level triggers are to be removed anyway.  I don't know exactly how talisman works in the game, but it sounds like with talismans being the unlock condition, secret levels would be more akin to challenges with the reward being another level in addition to a talisman.  I don't know that necessarily make the idea any more compelling, though seeing that some people like Ramon already self-impose restrictions on how they play through levels in a set (as I recall, he refused to, at least for as long as he can, to solve the Lix community set out of order), I suppose unlocking levels in a more general manner is not that different from playing levels as if one unlocks the next, though clearly there are good reasons why some prefer a more "all levels unlocked" style of play.

I do think it can work to have both coexist.  It is reasonable to allow some people to start off with everything unlocked, while letting other people play under a progressive unlock style if they so choose.  Similarly, level set designers can choose to not have anything locked, or to define a unlock progression that they believe is the best way to enjoy the levels, while conceding that it is always a valid choice for others to choose the option to unlock all on the outset.

[namida]

It seems only Proxima is in favor of keeping them. Also - if I'm not mistaken - at this point (now that secret levels have been removed from the Lemmings Plus games), the only packs that still have them are the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack and Revenge of the Lemmings. The former has them precisely because they exist; I'm not sure exactly what the reasoning is in the latter's case.

Proxima, do you have any actual plans to use them in your own content, or do you just like the idea of encountering them in packs that you play?


I'm definitely leaning even more strongly towards removing them altogether now - and also, most likely, towards mandatory unlock-all - but I wouldn't consider anything "final" yet.

[Apjjm]

The only argument against unlock all is the sense of progression you get from unlocking the next level - and i guess that is also part of the argument here for the secret levels being unlocked from talismans. For me, i am a huge fan of unlock all (and don't see why this logic shouldn't apply to the "secret levels" as well - I want to be able to play what looks interesting, possibly out of order if i get stuck). I think you could achieve the same feel of progression by having the option of specifying 3 versions of each ranking sign:
1) Default rank sign
2) Version of the rank sign with all levels completed (E.g. you could add a badge or write 100% or change the color or something)
3) Version of the rank sign with all levels complete & all talismans achieved

That way you have visible progression on the main menu, without having progression gate access to content. A "Percentage Completion" appearing somewhere would be nice touch too. Though i do admit i am straying a bit from the original goal of this topic, I think it is kind of a related issue. I don't think secrets should be locked away (because i don't like finding out i have missed out on cool content), but they could always go into a bonus rank which sits as the last rank, which you can complete at your leisure and will count towards your completion scores.

[namida]

The eventual plan is to do away with the "main menu" as it currently exists, and instead:
1. Have a single menu from which all packs you've downloaded can be played, instead of having to restart NeoLemmix to load a different pack
2. Within this menu, have a selection system more comparable to that of WinLemm / SuperLemmini (also somewhat like Lix, but not quite a full-blown file browser as such)

The idea of having varied rank signs, while nice if the existing structure were to be kept, doesn't fit in very well with that goal.

[Wafflem]

I thought secret levels were a cool feature at first, but in the end they got frustrating. Pretty much everyone has stated their points - they miss out on potentially cool content. People won't make the effort to look for secret levels. I really like Apjjm's suggestion of "Percentage Completion"; this has already been done in the talisman section. I also really like people's suggestion that the levels can be instead in a bonus rank.

I'm really liking namida's suggestion of a single menu where all packs can be viewed in a similar vein to Cheapo, WinLemm and SuperLemmini; you get a whole list of pack/levels right in front of you and it'll be easier to pick which one you want to play next.

I also really think Unlock-All should be permanent for NeoLemmix. As everyone said, it is unfair if the really awesome levels are tucked away in later ranks, and if one gets completely stuck on a level prior they completely give up. As a child, I got stuck on Tricky 19 "Postcard from Lemmingland" and Tricky 23 "From the Boundary Line". It took me a year or so until I completed the former. For the latter, I eventually gave up completely on Lemmings until I later found a walkthrough and the passwords online (keeping in mind that at the time, we were only able to connect to the internet by modems and I had other busy things going on). Also, do note that this was the DOS version, so the save requirements are very different.

I also play DROD, but I completely gave up in the Second Sky in the level that involves using a pickaxe and keg barrels ("Shattered Mine"). That mechanic has proven to be extremely difficult for me. This game has a lot of cool game elements like temporal token, but I'm really missing out on those just because of that one level. Perhaps I'll solve this level eventually.

One observation I would like to make - if people prefer levels to be locked and prefer to completely play in order from the very first level, then why is every difficulty rank unlocked? Shouldn't it be so that only the first difficulty rank is unlocked?

Another reason for unlock-all: one could potentially learn a trick in a later level, which they can use to solve the level they got stuck on.

If people don't like Unlock-All, they can just simply play the levels in order. No need to skip levels.

[Nepster]

It seems only Proxima is in favor of keeping them.

To be fair: In the Gimmick cull thread some more were in favor of keeping secret levels:
- möbius
- GigaLem (though with alternative methods for unlocking them)
- 607 (though with unlocking via talismans and completing ranks)
and perhaps I missed someone else.

[namida]

Let's take a look at their comments. Let me know if I've missed any.

Definitely don't remove secret levels! I find that concept a lot of fun, much like challenges. It’s an extra aspect of the game that isn’t required to solve the game but there for players who want further play-ability.

and as for secret level, why not make 'em alternate exits? or Exits of a different color like if i wanted to make a level with a secret level trigger, I put an extra choice to go to the otherside of the level, and solve the level there, honestly Secret could be handled better

So... I don't like secret level triggers, unless it's very clearly stated where you need to go. I do like unlocking secret levels by completing every level in a rank or getting talismans.

So - we have one "I like it" but without much further elaboration; two that say something that could be considered a more-specific variation on "make the trigger visible", one of whom also does say they're in favor of keeping the unlock by talismans (or by completing a rank, which would be a new method that isn't currently supported).

None of them elaborated very much on these points, unlike Proxima, or many of the people arguing against them. I'd also note that of the people arguing for them, to the best of my knowledge only mobius has actually used them, and even then only in a compilation pack he was coordinating. However - I think this is one case where the user's view of them will also matter more than the creator's - if a creator hides a level as secret, they've made the decision that they don't mind that some people may never see or play this level; however as a user, it means there's content hidden from you that, while you may be able to solve, you may never even know is there, let alone see it, unless you stumble on the unlock method. This is of course mitigated by that, especially in the case of talisman-activated levels, it can be pointed out that they exist.

It's a bit hard to get an experience-based opinion here, as the majority of cases where level packs have included secret levels, it has been via secret level triggers. I think Revenge of the Lemmings might've had a few that were done via talisman? The NeoLemmix Introduction Pack only unlocks them via talisman - although there is a tutorial level for the secret level trigger, it instead takes you to the next regular level when you find it. Those two aside, the only case I can think of where one was unlocked by a method other than a secret level trigger was one level in Lemmings Plus III Bonus Pack, which was unlocked by finding the code (parts of which were written in various regular levels) and entering it as a level password.

Much of this would be compounded even further with a change to "always unlock all levels" (which is not yet a confirmed change, by the way) and a tree-based level selection. Though the possibility is there to list the level, but mark it as "locked" until the player manages to unlock it. This way, at least, they know it exists, and perhaps some kind of hint can be given as to how to unlock it. I still really am leaning more towards removing the secret level feature altogether, though.

[mobius]

I don't really mind anymore one way or another but here's more elaboration on why I like the idea:

Why do people keep playing old games like Lemmings, pokemon red/blue, Super Mario etc? Because even after 20 years people are still discovering new things about them. As an adult you can discover a new thing about a game you played as a child you didn't know before. So one point is that secret levels add replay-ability. In a way, imo at least, they're very much like achievements. If a part of a game is optional to complete then it could also be seen as a form of challenge.
It's something a little mysterious, which some people, myself included really enjoy, some find irresistible.

I like the idea of not making them "totally secret". That is; somehow let the player know they exist and maybe give clues to where they are.*

In Revenge of the Lemmings the levels I made secret were all levels which were either;
-similar to an existing level in a normal rank.
-of unpopular level design/unique/unusually difficult
-levels that were only liked by a few people
-a few levels which were added at the last minute after the level limit was already reached

I think what I like better than a secret level is just the achievement of finding a secret trigger in a level.

-On Level unlocking; I like Cheapo's menu/tree thing.

*Yes, this is another form of gameplay not ordinary to Lemmings. As everyone here seems to want to confine Lemmings to one strict form of gameplay secret levels will probably be removed.

[namida]

It seems like this is a case where the decision is always going to be split, so it falls onto me to decide between option A or option B.

Based on the arguments I've seen for both sides so far, as well as simplicity of coding, and general usability concerns, I think the best choice moving forward is to remove secret levels altogether. Yes, some people are going to be unhappy about this - but this was going to happen either way. One last reason for this - I think it makes sense, if we're removing secret levels, to do so in the same update as gimmick removal. Since that update isn't very far away now by the looks of things, a decision had to be made fairly soon.

Just for the record on what effects this should have in the new version:
- Secret level triggers will do nothing. They will remain invisible, so there won't suddenly be weird colored squares in your levels.
- Talismans that unlock secret levels will no longer unlock anything. Unless the requirement for the talisman was "Find a secret level trigger", or they were hidden talismans, they will continue to function in every other way.
- Any levels (or entire ranks) set as secret will now function just like any normal level would; they won't become inaccessible.


My mind still isn't made up completely in regards to whether or not to always have all levels unlocked, but I'm also leaning towards yes on this one.

[namida]

I think at this point, it's safe to say that always unlock all should be the only behaviour too, so in future, that's how it'll be. This, of course, also will simplify things when implementing an improved level selection system.

If anyone has any arguments as to why it should not always be unlock-all, feel free to present them, but at this point it's unlikely that not-unlock-all will be the end result.

[Proxima]

I don't have a quarrel with that, but I want to add a few words before the topic gets closed. In the other linked topic Simon completely misrepesented me and made me sound like an insensitive jerk ("you will then enjoy the game more when other people can't use some option you wouldn't want to use"). That is not, and has never been, my position. I enjoy the satisfaction of gradual progression through a game and unlocking previously locked content. It makes no difference to me at all what options are available on your copy.

It may sound strange that I prefer things that way, but I do. There are several packs of extremely difficult content with unlock-all, such as the top ranks of Clam's Lix set or any of the Lemmings Plus sets. I end up not playing them -- I would like to, but I never really get round to doing so. Simon is correct that having all levels ticked off (in Lix) is a reward in itself, but when that is so far away, getting through the levels feels like too much of a slog with no intermediate rewards. In NeoLemmix you don't even get the tick marks. (This makes me curious: how do the veterans who've played many NeoLemmix packs with unlock-all keep track of their own progress?)

My preference would be for unlock-all to be something decided by the user (and on a per-pack basis) rather than the pack designer -- then everyone gets the experience they want. I accept that this may be too much coding work for something not many of us want, so I won't argue further if you don't want to implement it.

[namida]

(This makes me curious: how do the veterans who've played many NeoLemmix packs with unlock-all keep track of their own progress?)

NeoLemmix does keep track of it, but currently there's no easy way to display it. I hope to change this in the near future. The "not so easy" ways to check would be either examining the save file (only possible since recently, as earlier versions used an encrypted, binary format; but versions from V1.43n-C onwards use an unencrypted, text-based format), or making use of the fact that when you first enter a rank from the main menu, it takes you to the first unlocked, unbeaten level of that rank. I believe most people tend to play the levels in order anyway, even though not forced to; however, I can think of a case where a player got stuck through no real fault of their own* so made use of the everything-being-unlocked to progress. Then we also have players like Simon who prefer not to play every level in a large pack, but rather wait and see which levels people think are good, and play only the best ones - in the case of Lemmings Plus, the Flashbacks packs serve this purpose well, but in the case of many other packs, no such equivalent exists.

I don't know how easy it would be to implement your suggestion; I still don't know much about how I'm going to implement an improved level selection beyond vague ideas of how the end result should look / function (in particular, I haven't thought much about the internal workings of it). If it's fairly simple, I could consider it, but I can't make any promises.

* Flopsy86's Lemmings Plus I videos. He was using a newer version of NeoLemmix that had removed direct drop, but an older copy of Lemmings Plus I that required direct drop on Psycho 6.

[607]

Ah, finally a change I agree with
I saw I was quoted from the gimmicks thread, but I did indeed not give any arguments, and after reading the good arguments against here, I changed opinion.
For NeoLemmix, it doesn't fit. I'd rather have the secret levels in a different rank and be able to play them whenever I want, or have them mixed with the levels in the other ranks.
I think the talismans are quite a nice addition and don't need to unlock secret levels. Doing the talismans is optional, and to me, they already give satisfaction by simply showing they've been beaten. If people don't care about the talismans but do care about the other levels, they should be able to play them without needing to get the talismans first.

For NeoLemmix, I'm also in favour of unlock-all. I'll still play the levels in order, and I can. This way, anyone can play their way. It's perfectly fine to only advance to the next level once you've beaten the current one, and you can also scroll through them to see which one you'll play. It just needs to be clearer which levels you've beaten and which you haven't.
I was trying to explain why I am a bit sceptical about the dropdown menu thing, as I felt how WinLemm had it took away from the feel the original games had, but I can't explain feels very well so figured nobody would understand anyway so I scrapped it.
But still, I really like the main menu with the title and the rank signs and such, it really adds a feel to it for me.