[DISCUSSION][PLAYER] Game mechanics in general

[namida]

So, as per the discussion on climbers, it looks like we're in for some major physics changes in the next update - at least major enough that a lot of replays, and possibly some levels, will be broken.

With that in mind, I think now would be a good time to discuss any other physics changes that should perhaps take place - I'd rather get as many as possible into one version, rather than releasing multiple versions that change physics.

In particular - now may be a good time to do something about direct drop. I remember the general opinion was very in favor of removing it, but no consensus was reached on what's the best way to handle existing levels that rely on it (in particular, the Sky graphic set which is entirely designed with allowing it in mind), or edge cases such as floaters and gliders.

[IchoTolot]

About direct drop:

I am ok with removing this as I think this is an unlogical concept from the start. The only person that comes in my mind who used this technique consistantly is namida
Maybe make an extra option for the sky tileset   or mark your old packs with direct drop activated

About climbers:

I tested the experimental version of the "Nepster fix" and from my main packs only 2 replays broke (single levels not tested yet). As more little inconsistancies will be fixed for low-pixel-climbs, I expect a few more broken replays, but no real level break. Maybe for the final fix put another experimental version up for a week, giving people time to fix everything and then releasing it as official.

Other stuff:

There is really no other physic related behavior I find unlogical or unintended   Simon once found the platformer a bit weird, but here I must say i find the NL version better than the Lix counterpart:
- In NL the platformer doesn't give you ANY height! In Lix the platformer gives you height. That could lead to platformers that "cheat" another builder. Now they do strictly different things.
- As a consequence the platformer turns if he collides with terrain (just like a builder)

As in general I am not a fan of big physic changes. If there is no real big obvious unlogic behavior ----> Don't fix/break what isn't broken
It would just cause work for everyone for little or no advantage.

[Nepster]

About direct drop:
I am ok with removing this as I think this is an unlogical concept from the start. The only person that comes in my mind who used this technique consistantly is namida

You forget all the old Lemmix levels that I am currently updating. But I am fine with going through them again and removing/adapting any level that uses direct drops. Removing direct drops is worth this extra effort.

Maybe make an extra option for the sky tileset   or mark your old packs with direct drop activated

Please don't change the game mechanics depending on the style (sky or not sky). Perhaps most sky levels can be adapted by enlarging the trigger area of the exit?

Regarding other changes: There are some behaviors that I don't really like (how gliders turn around or that stackers continue working if the terrain at their feet is removed, ...), but I cannot think of anything truly unlogical. So I have no proposals for further changes.

[Simon]

Keep the platformer. It is much more consistent than the L2 platformer. Lix got the platformer before I cared strongly about reductive design and consistency. It breaks my mental pathfinding because I'm used to the inconsistent platformer since childhood, but that's a bug in my wiring, not in the game's.

Remove direct drop, let's avoid extra logic per tileset/tile. Redesign problematic levels with updrafts, and move the exit. Or post pictures of problematic levels.

Nepster made a topic about updrafts once, with a quiz. Have the updraft rules been simplified since?

-- Simon

[namida]

Nepster made a topic about updrafts once, with a quiz. Have the updraft rules been simplified since?

A change was made so that instead of reducing the "distance fallen", it just sets it to zero - essentially, all fall above the updraft is just ignored.


Let's take a look at which Lemmings Plus levels would be affected by removing direct drop, and how hard it would be to work around this. Note that I'm only paying attention to levels where the intended solution breaks (even if other solutions exist, but I will mention if they do), not simply ones where challenge solutions break. I have also specifically pointed out where affected levels are Sky levels; if special handling for this is implemented, no change is needed (I'm thinking something along the lines of having a seperate type of exit that *does* allow dropping in; graphic set designers would then be expected to give visual cues to the difference). I also haven't listed cases where it only affects the talisman solutions, not the main ones.

My prediction before looking through: Most of the affected levels will be in the Sky set. There may be a couple of other affected levels, but not many.

Now, let's actually look.

Medi 7 "Leap of Faith" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpi/0307.png
>> The direct drop is not an important part of the level. Simply reducing the fall distance would solve the problem here.

Danger 1 "Inside Outside" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpi/0401.png
>> If I remember correctly, a solution that does not use direct drop exists. Before making any changes, I'll try and see if I can reproduce that solution, and if so, make it the intended one.

Psycho 6 "The Bulldozer" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpi/0506.png
>> This could probably be fixed by placing terrain below the exits, and an updraft above the exit trigger areas.


Genius 20 "Cactus Central" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpii/0520.png
>> This one can probably be fixed with updrafts, but it would definitely make the solution more obvious.


None from Lemmings Plus II Bonus Pack


Timid 11 "A Digger Would Be Handy" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpiii/0111.png
>> Could be fixed with terrain and updrafts. Is a Sky level.

Timid 14 "Some Say It Was A Lemming" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpiii/0114.png
>> Same as Timid 11.

Timid 16 "Heads In The Sky" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpiii/0116.png
>> Same as Timid 11 and 14; also, solutions that do not involve direct drop exist.

Fierce 5 "In The Frenz-zone" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpiii/0405.png
>> Removing direct drop would not make this level impossible, just increase the accuracy required for building to the exit. It must be kept in mind that it is a Frenzy level, though. It's also another Sky level.

Fierce 9 "The Troll Level" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpiii/0409.png
>> Same as Fierce 5, except not a Frenzy level.


Teamwork 7 "Turbulent Affairs" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpiiibonus/0407.png
>> Terrain + (maybe) updraft solution works, is also another Sky level.

Secret 3 "The Lazy Streak" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpiiibonus/0603.png
>> Adding terrain below the exit would work (no updraft needed). Is another sky level.


None from Lemmings Plus IV


Puzzling 3 "Horizontal Access" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpo/0203.png
>> Doesn't break the level, just increases the precision needed. Is a sky level.

Puzzling 27 "Inversion Therapy" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpo/0227.png
>> Has alternate solutions that do not involve direct drop.

Perplexing 20 "Current Affairs" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpo/0320.png
>> Will only need changes if floaters/gliders are prohibited from exiting in midair too. Is a Sky level.

Mental 18 "...wait, what?" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpo/0418.png
>> It's possible a direct-drop free solution exists. If not, a new solution would be needed, unless the level is changed to remove its signature upside down exit. Note that this is a repeat of Puzzling 27.

Mental 28 "The Troublesome Trio" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpo/0428.png
>> Could be fixed by moving the exit upwards or placing terrain below it. Is a sky level.

Playtime 1 "Quarantined Threat" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpo/0501.png
>> Could be fixed by adding terrain below the exit, is a Sky level.

Playtime 7 "Glider Frenzy" http://www.neolemmix.com/old/levelimg/lpo/0507.png
>> If floaters/gliders aren't exempt from changes, then the precision needed for this level will increase (do note that it's a frenzy level), but it will not be rendered impossible.


None from Holiday Lemmings Plus.

[namida]

Locked this topic as V1.43n update implements the Direct Drop change. If further changes are proposed, a new topic should be created.