Author Topic: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)  (Read 42746 times)

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Offline Gronkling

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Re: Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS
« Reply #150 on: August 09, 2017, 03:00:50 PM »
Tricky 8 in 2371 frames (~ 47 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJScBKOyV94

Quite tricky, some steel glitches used.

Offline Gronkling

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Re: Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS
« Reply #151 on: August 11, 2017, 09:19:16 PM »
Tricky 9 in 2223F (44s)

https://youtu.be/qvXQvyaQFQ0

Annoying level with a not very interesting solution.

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (incomplete)
« Reply #152 on: January 18, 2021, 09:12:03 PM »
Had an urge to come back to this after like 3 years. I'm still having problems with bizhawk crashing for some reason though, which was one of the main reasons I quit back then. Anyway quite a few glitches used in this one (steel glitches and a little bit of climbing through terrain)

Tricky 10 in 2732F (~55s)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VAmzL80ldG4

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (incomplete)
« Reply #153 on: January 19, 2021, 02:02:40 AM »
Tricky 11 in 870 Frames (~17.5 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRf2Vq2OkPI

Nice and fast :D Fairly obvious skip here that I think a lot of people are aware of, freeing the miners in a fast way with no bashers is hard though, only figured out two of the four of them. The second to mine shows an interesting behaviour I've never seen before where it gets cancelled almost instantly in a unique way. It'd be nice if this happened for the fourth miner too but I think it needs super precise timing that's probably cancel out the time advantage of doing it.

---
EDIT: no new post on this one since its not very interesting

Tricky 12 in 1554 frames (~31 seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Dv8arIgGbg
« Last Edit: January 21, 2021, 02:59:48 AM by Gronkling »

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (incomplete)
« Reply #154 on: January 22, 2021, 03:04:04 AM »
Tricky 13 in 2824 frames (~56.8 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hGnWWWAVg5o

Things are definitely getting less open ended now, but still room for creativity with some mini-basher staircase sort of things going on here.

---EDIT

Tricky 14 in 2862 frames (~57.6 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WY9u_ky8ab8

One of those chaotic, messy levels, almost certainly improvements can be made somewhere in here, but under 1 minute has me happy enough for the time being.

---EDIT2

Tricky 15 in 808 frames (~16.3 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a76hUMRDnPY

Second quickest yet (and faster than fun 1), nothing really exciting though. Maybe it's possible to get it so the 4th lemming doesn't turn around, but I couldn't

---EDIT3

Tricky 16 in 2475 frames (~49.8 seconds)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsehxVtUfnk

A surprisingly hard one, specifically bombing through the netting at the end in a way the doesn't result in too many lemmings turning around. Also the lag reduction here means you can't see the bombing. I'm sure this can be improved, but it'll be annoying

---EDIT4

Two more fairly uninteresting ones

Tricky 17 in 1675 frames (~ 33.7s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUhN0MbTh4I
(theres nothing much you can do with this one since there's only 2 skills)

Tricky 18 in 1362 frames (~ 27.4s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=By43Y7av8fQ
pretty much the same as one of the standard ways to solve this level
« Last Edit: January 26, 2021, 03:14:23 AM by Gronkling »

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« Reply #155 on: January 26, 2021, 03:15:29 AM »
Tricky 19 in 2562 frames (~ 51.55s)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAXOPIvfYHw

This one uses a fun trick, cancelling the basher with a miner, then cancelling the miner with a digger. This gives a step that lets the lemmings get up the first obstacle without using a builder, so I don't need to use loads of time bashing and mining through the terrain, giving a solution under a minute.

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« Reply #156 on: January 26, 2021, 12:06:36 PM »
Not a solution but a TECH POST

Decided to look into the difference between NTSC and PAL. We've been using PAL due to the ROM being more easily accessible back when this started, but most speedruns tend to use NTSC and this port was made in an NTSC region, so I wanted to see if there was a big difference.

The PAL version updates everything every 3 frames, whilst the NTSC version updates everything every 4 frames, so played at the same framerate, the NTSC version is 25% slower than the PAL version.
PAL megadrive has framerate of 49.70146, whilst NTSC genesis has framerate of 59.92275, so running the same thing, NTSC is about 20% faster than PAL
Putting this together, the NTSC version should be 10% slower than the PAL version

I did an experiment to check:
Loaded FUN 8, made an input on first frame that the first lemming falls off the platform.
In NTSC, this took 1364 frames, so ~22.76 seconds
In PAL this took 1028 frames, so ~20.68 seconds
1028/1364 = ~0,75
20.68/22.76 = ~0.9
So my predictions work out

Therefor the we should continue using the PAL version because it's faster 8-)

The only thing that does move faster during NTSC gameplay is the cursor since that isn't bound by the physics update cycle

---EDIT

I changed the table on the first post to be more accessible to people not as familiar with frames.

And here's tricky 20 in 55.49 seconds (2758 frames)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_Klq91ybCE

Loads of lemmings here which means its a "don't look directly at the lemmings" level, oh well. Goes under the one way wall as you'd probably expect.

---EDIT2

Tricky 21 in 52.68 seconds (2618 frames)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=38&v=vl5KFDKZEYo

This one features a newly discovered (I think) glitch seen at around 0:38 where a bomber instantly explodes, skipping the oh-no state, due to being caught in a trap at the same time. A bit of a messy and hard to optimise level, I'm sure a few more seconds can be saved here.
« Last Edit: January 27, 2021, 04:24:01 PM by Gronkling »

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« Reply #157 on: February 02, 2021, 10:23:13 PM »
I'm just adding new solutions to the OP now since no one was replying, for now I'll make a new post if I come across something interesting, such as...

Today's Genesis mystery:
Sometimes pressing the A button stops a frame or two of lag. For example, I managed to save 4 frames on the tricky 28 solution just by pressing the A button at certain points whilst the game was lagging. I have absolutely no idea why this happens, or how to predict when you should press A.

Got 5 frames off lag-fest fun 14 with this
« Last Edit: February 03, 2021, 12:21:48 AM by Gronkling »

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« Reply #158 on: February 04, 2021, 01:43:17 AM »
Finished going through each tricky level now, for the next step I will go back through them and check for any time saves that I can think of with a fresh look at the level and a better understanding of things like lag. Unfortunately ccexplore's LUA scripts no longer work due to a major bizhawk update at some point in the last few years, and my programming knowledge isn't good enough to fix them, so I will have to guess a bit at the lag patterns.

I'll edit this post to list improvements
Tricky 1 - No improvement
Tricky 2 - 0:48.03(2387) -> 0:47.26(2349)
Tricky 3 - 0:36.64(1821) -> 0:36.26(1802)
Tricky 4 - No improvement
Tricky 5 - 1:45.77(5257) -> 1:37.02(4822)
Tricky 6 - 0:31.09(1545) -> 0:30.70(1526)
Tricky 7 - 0:38.97(1937) -> 0:37.61(1869)
Tricky 8 - No improvement
« Last Edit: February 18, 2021, 10:59:07 PM by Gronkling »

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (TRICKY complete)
« Reply #159 on: February 19, 2021, 01:18:03 AM »
The full compilation of ALL current tricky solutions is here! The full tricky rank in 24 minutes 23.96 seconds
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIQHfXs0ZtE

Offline Gronkling

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Re: [Genesis] Lemmings (Genesis Port) TAS (WIP)
« Reply #160 on: March 03, 2021, 07:22:11 PM »
Spent a bit learning some LUA and put together this simple script to track lag during gameplay
Small green square shows in lower left on frames where assignments can be made, so you don't have to keep RAMwatch open all the time
Small red square shows in lower left on lag frames, allowing you to spot them more easily (currently won't give you a total at all like ccexplore's old script though)

I also got ccexplore's trigger map script to work with the modern version of Bizhawk
« Last Edit: March 03, 2021, 11:24:34 PM by Gronkling »