Mayhem 26

[namida]

So, generally in NeoLemmix-ised levels, I've removed blockers where their primary purpose previously was to time bombers (since NeoLemmix bombers are instant, not timed). For most levels, this is quite clear whether to leave them or remove them. However, Mayhem 26 is a somewhat special case; because while the primary purpose of the blockers is bomber timing, they can also serve other purposes. At the same time, under NeoLemmix, this level is still possible - and much more suited to its position - without them. Currently, that level has no blockers in the NeoLemmix version. (It's also based off the Amiga version, which means you can only lose 10 lemmings, and only have 10 each of the other two skills.)

Do you think the blockers should be re-added to this level, or should it be kept as is? (In the case they're re-added, if I ever get around to adding achievements, it's also a possibility that an achievement could be added for completing that level without them.)

[chaos_defrost]

If you're going to not be a purist here, change the skillset to something that actually forces the use of blockers, like n/n/n, where "n" is 1 fewer than the minimum number of bombers needed in a blockerless solve. Especially considering any blockerless solve for this level is way too easy for Mayhem 26 with timerless bombers.

Although I don't then know if there's a builder shortage. Huh.

[namida]

If you're going to not be a purist here, change the skillset to something that actually forces the use of blockers, like n/n/n, where "n" is 1 fewer than the minimum number of bombers needed in a blockerless solve. Especially considering any blockerless solve for this level is way too easy for Mayhem 26 with timerless bombers.

You sure about that?
As mentioned, you can only lose 10 lemmings, and only have 10 bombers and 10 builders, due to it being based off the Amiga version.

You need 9 bombers to solve the level without blockers under NeoLemmix (unless there's something I've missed), and this solution uses all 10 builders. You could reduce this to 9 builders, and maybe as low as 6 bombers (might be 7), if you had just two blockers. (EDIT: Based on testing, it seems you need 7 Bombers + 9 Builders, plus one extra of either of them, with two blockers. This can be reduced further with three blockers - 6 bombers + 8 builders + 1 more of either. More than three blockers doesn't offer any further improvement as far as I can tell, thus meaning the minimum X-each-of-all-three for this level would seem to be 8; indeed, without a number of bombers far in excess of 10 (and in turn, a correspondingly lower save requirement), there's no way to make a path with less than 8 builders. The absolute minimum for number of bombers simply to create a path is 5; but regardless of number of blockers I haven't seen any way to create the path and control the crowd with less than 6, even with a full 10 builders.


(It's actually possible with a bit less than that, but only because the trap currently doesn't work due to a badly-set trigger area. I need to fix this...)

[Proxima]

At least it's not based on the Mac version 

Even so, I would add the blockers back. The Amiga version, with 10/10/10, is about the right difficulty for its place (remember, even late-Mayhem is easy by Lemmings Forum standards) but without blockers, it would be too much of a difficulty spike. They are important for crowd control and separating individual lemmings to build over the water and the trap.

[Simon]

Nan nan, bad usability in the poll >_>

I wanted to vote for having blockers, and since L1 has them, I clicked on "leave as-is". Now you must move a vote!

-- Simon

[namida]

That better?

[Simon]

Very much so. :-)

I think Proxima has the reason like I'd put it. The experience comes from finding the strange route, compared to having bashers.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

Obviously a little late to the party, but I'd say Proxima's reasoning sounds good.  In fact, I kind of question what's the purpose of blocker removal in the first place?  Aren't the blockers technically already superfluous even under the original mechanics?  I can't think of a level in Lemmings 1 where it is mandatory to use a blocker (instead of just timing) in order to explode a lemming in the desired location.  How many levels is the blocker removal being applied to?

Out of curiosity, what happens then with Fun 6 vs Tricky 17?  The only difference in the original is that you can use blockers in the Fun version but must use timing in the Tricky repeat.  (Well okay and the save requirement, but clearly the main point was requiring timed bombers in Tricky.)

[namida]

Fun 6 vs Tricky 17 don't have much difference. It's similar to the case of Fun 30 vs Mayhem 24 under any engine with directional select (obviously there's more difference here in challenges).


Also - I don't believe Mayhem 26 at Amiga stats is solvable under DOS/Amiga mechanics without blockers, though I could be wrong. You need either the DOS stats or NeoLemmix mechanics to achieve this. With that being said, I could be wrong on this.


Anyway, since it seems the majority are in favor of restoring the blockers, I'll put them back in the next update. However, if/when achievements are added, expect to see one for solving this level without any blockers.

[PIGSgrame]

I haven't been around when this poll was running, but I still want to say that I welcome the re-adding of the blockers in v1.34. I think it's fine to "Neo-Lemmingize" some of the levels to profit from the improved mechanics, but in my opinion, Mayhem 26 without the Blockers was too far away from the orginal. Thanks for the change