Author Topic: Here I Go Again!  (Read 21006 times)

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Offline geoo

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #210 on: October 30, 2009, 09:21:38 pm »
Haha, I was wondering when this allegiation would come up. :P

To fill you in on the chain of events, back when I released PCL2ED, it drew little attention and quickly sank into oblivion. Being aware of how crappy it is, I didn't really promote it either.
It was only weirdy sending me a PM few days ago that made me realize that the thing didn't even work on pretty much every PC except the one I initially wrote this on. I estimate I changed 10 lines of code thereafter to get it into the state is it right now (If you don't believe me, the original sources are still up at the old address :P).

Even if redundand, I still intend to continue on the stats editor though, for the main purpose of getting myself to learn Qt.

In the end, I'm pretty certain once you release your editor, PCL2ED will sink into the then well-deserved oblivion again, just like LemEdit did.

Oh, and on the note keyboard commands/shortcut keys: I'd appreciate if you keep keyboard driven controls in, as I find mouse navigation to be somewhat slow for certain uses, especially e.g. menus.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #211 on: October 30, 2009, 10:04:28 pm »
PCL2ED isn't bad, it just needs a little improvement.  I'd be happy to give you ideas on how to make it better.

Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #212 on: October 30, 2009, 11:18:32 pm »
OMG you're so full of yourself.  I have nothing more to say to you......ever

\o/


I feel rather sorry that you'd actually think this is some sort of conspiracy to annoy you.

I know exactly how you feel. One time, there was this guy who was ludicrously incapable of seeing the humor in any of my posts. Must be a sorry life to lead indeed. (-:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #213 on: October 30, 2009, 11:51:24 pm »
It was not just that one post btw.  Your various actions starting from this post has pretty much turned me off completely, and I was already reaching the same impressions anyway well before even that.  I was simply going to be completely silent on it until your latest post got me just over the edge.  Even as a half-joke it shows a complete disconnect with what other people in the forums and community cares and wants.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #214 on: October 31, 2009, 12:00:47 am »
You know GuyPerfect, your editor doesn't have to be perfect - why, just look at PCL2ED:  It's not great, but is that stopping anyone?  Nope.

Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #215 on: October 31, 2009, 12:09:50 am »
You know GuyPerfect, your editor doesn't have to be perfect - why, just look at PCL2ED:  It's not great, but is that stopping anyone?  Nope.

I actually haven't revised anything yet to clear out any bugs or unintended behaviors. Off the top of my head, I can only think of one unintended behavior, and it's an easy fix just reworking the input logic (dragging the level boundary into the picker box cancels the drag). It's not a matter of making the editor perfect at this point; the editor simply isn't finished yet.

On the other hand, I have been considering releasing the work-in-progress build with all its not-user-friendliness since people have shown a remarkable willingness to make due with what's available to them. I've just got to finish up making the objects draw correctly in the editor and I'll be able to put it up as a "use at your own risk" public build. It's not what I would have wanted, but I'm aware that coding the remainder of the user interface will probably take more planning than I originally estimated.


I was simply going to be completely silent on it until your latest post got me just over the edge.

You weren't supposed to pop so soon. I still have another antagonism in mind and I'm not sure if I'll get a chance to use it. )-:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #216 on: October 31, 2009, 12:10:24 am »
Actually, I also want to clarify that my personal beef with GP has little to nothing to do with when he chooses to release the editor.  Sure, everyone's a little on edge when he says it's almost ready, and then released a couple of custom levels, but no editor yet, but I'm well past that.  (If anything, my own foray into the game's data format only gives me renew appreciation of all the subtleties and complexities the programmer would need to deal with, sooner or later.)  What I found ludicrous is his suggestion, even if just a joke, that he's punishing the community by withholding progress reports based on his own beef with my posts.  As a joke it's not all that funny given the community's anxiousness waiting on the editor, and as a non-joke it's well, you all know how I feel about that one.

<back to silence>

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #217 on: October 31, 2009, 12:18:31 am »
You weren't supposed to pop so soon. I still have another antagonism in mind and I'm not sure if I'll get a chance to use it. )-:

Oh go ahead.  :-\ ;) Ideally when I give the silent treatment it really means that.  Just like how I refrained from posting any responses to Giga's posts if it's not going to add anything of value to anyone.  I suppose I'm already off to a bad start here in that regard.  Anyway, my focus now is not so much on your work (which I still immensely look forward to, nonwithstanding any ill feelings) as what can be done by the rest of us in the meanwhile.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #218 on: October 31, 2009, 12:51:00 am »
On the other hand, I have been considering releasing the work-in-progress build with all its not-user-friendliness since people have shown a remarkable willingness to make due with what's available to them. I've just got to finish up making the objects draw correctly in the editor and I'll be able to put it up as a "use at your own risk" public build. It's not what I would have wanted, but I'm aware that coding the remainder of the user interface will probably take more planning than I originally estimated.

That'll be nice.

Offline GuyPerfect

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #219 on: October 31, 2009, 02:12:40 am »
Okay, I've got the WIP build up on my server. Just so everyone's on the same page... I sent it to specific people instead of posting it for the general to download for one reason in particular: We don't need L2 noobs getting ahold of it and rushing our forums with thousands of copies of the same "Why isn't it perfect? Why doesn't it do this or that?" questions. I've seen it happen before, and it's not pretty. I'm not locking down its distribution as it pertains to this thread, however. Having said that, I ask that you do keep it to yourself lest we summon would-be level architects from the ominous void of the internet.

I've sent PMs to the following people based solely on participation in this topic. If you think you should receive a copy and are not on this list, lemme know in a PM.

In alphabetical order:
  • ccexplore
  • Clam Spammer
  • Dullstar
  • geoo
  • Mindless
  • weirdybeardy
.
The ZIP file contains all the STYLES and LEVELS from the game as well as the editor and skill selector.

Editor:
  • Left and Right keys load different stages.
  • Up and Down keys specify the zoom factor.
  • Hold Spacebar to display and move the default screen position.
  • 1 and 2 keys select if Objects or Presets are displayed in the picker.
  • Backspace toggles Reveal mode.
  • 3, when Tile and Preset elements are selected, toggles background status. This can be determined with Reveal mode.
  • Delete deletes the selected elements.
  • Left-click and drag will either move an element or draw a selection box.
  • Right-click and drag will pan the display.
  • Shift forces an all-inclusive selection box. Ctrl forces an inversion selection box.
  • Click and drag the dotted lines to resize the stage.
  • Scroll Up and Scroll Down on the mouse specify the zoom factor.
  • Chains, cannons, catapults and steam jets aren't implemented yet.
  • The S key will save the current stage to a file called LEVEL___.DAT.
  • Some objects in levels (namely many steel blocks on the Polar tribe) will not load.
  • Clicking an element in the picker box will let you place one in the level.
  • Click-and-drag when placing steel blocks, water or presets to insert multiples into the level.
  • Esc will deselect selected objects and picked elements.
.
The resulting LEVEL___.DAT file is required for the skill selector to work. The skill selector can modify the following:
  • Level name
  • Time limit (minutes and seconds)
  • Release rate (up to 20, and negative values possible. Needs investigation)
  • All 8 skills and their quantities

Offline Clam

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #220 on: October 31, 2009, 02:56:06 am »
I can't help but think left/right to load a different level is a poor choice. Especially when you consider what these keys do in Lemmix, and how often you might use them when making a level. I know this is only temporary, but... can it temporarily be something else? (Page up/down perhaps?)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #221 on: October 31, 2009, 04:19:04 am »
Cool!  So far so good.  I've a few minor bugs to report in PM but that'll come a little later.  Right now I just want to mention one thing:

But hey, at least I made a Classic level with non-Classic skills, right? I haven't tested Attractor yet, but everything else seems to work just fine.

Without even thinking, I wound up putting an attractor in my test level in classic style.  The result?  Well...not quite what you expected, though it still sorta works......

I've attached the level for anyone who wants to see what happens.  This level (not my original test level, which I might release later once I sort thru what skills to use) is basically just Classic 1 with the climber replaced by attractor.  Just in case number of skills is at issue, I also reduced the number of each skill down to 1, so the level is most probably not solvable.  It was only intended for testing Attractor in classic tribe.

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #222 on: October 31, 2009, 05:10:39 am »
Best level editor ever!  Easier than LemEdit, Lemmix, and PCL2ED (Can't say anything about Lem3edit, because I've never used it).  Once the GUI is finished, it will be way easier than even Cheapo was.  Granted, PCL2ED is the only other one for Lemmings 2, but the basic interface concept in yours is the best -- now I see why it took so long!

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #223 on: October 31, 2009, 05:40:08 am »
...although I must ask why I can't find levels when I press s to save them.

Offline weirdybeardy

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Re: Here I Go Again!
« Reply #224 on: October 31, 2009, 03:15:21 pm »
I haven't had the chance to download GP's editor or try out any custom levels yet, but from what people are saying around here, I'm really looking forward to it!  :) Also looking forward to witnessing the spectacle of a Classic attractor first-hand...  :P

Oh well. Maybe tonight. Can't wait!