Here I Go Again!

[Dullstar]

'Doh.  That's why it doesn't work right. 
Ah, how often something goes wrong because I overlook something...

btw, this has nothing to do with the editor, but which files go with which tribe?

[GuyPerfect]

000 to 009 = Classic
010 to 019 = Beach
020 to 029 = Cavelem
030 to 039 = Circus
040 to 049 = Egyptian
050 to 059 = Highland
060 to 069 = Medieval
070 to 079 = Outdoor
080 to 089 = Polar
090 to 099 = Shadow
100 to 109 = Space
110 to 119 = Sports

[Dullstar]

Thanks.

[geoo]

Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

I'll try not to go into things that are obviously still provisional, as they are subject to change anyway.

For most part, the controls felt simple and very intuitive, making the editor very pleasant to use. The way you implemented area selection is very powerful for quickly selecting whatever you want.
I also liked the easy way to change the viewport by just dragging with the right mouse button.
Initially I had the same problem as ClamSpammer, namely pressing UDLR when I wanted to move a piece, and thought that having these keys for moving a selected piece or area in addition to dragging would be essential for me. I ended up covering these keys with a piece of paper, and got used to the mouse driven interface there; due to the 16x8 grid the mouse still gives sufficient precision easily, having UDLR for that functionality might still be a nice addition though.
The picker interface has the slight disadvantage that you don't see all pieces at once, and have to use the mouse to scroll, but I'm sure that once one gets used to the tilesets this will be less of an issue. I found a few oddities with it though:
You cannot scroll or directly select another tile/object when a tile/object is currently selected in the picker; and for placing multiple tiles/objects that do not connect you'll always have to re-select them instead of the piece staying selected.

On a different note, did you manage to find out about the precise positioning of trigger areas? I think in reveal mode these could be very useful.

I really liked ClamSpammer's level, requiring to set up some sort of roper web to get up. Due to making a few mistakes every now and then, I ended up having exactly no ropers left when I solved the level.

[weirdybeardy]

Now remember... Be careful not to force them.

Sorry. I'll try to rein in my enthusiasm. 

Ok, I guess the best way to test this editor is to go through the entire design process of making one level (which is attached, btw, Medieval tribe).

I've given it a go. It's a nice little puzzle, and the 99 release rate makes it an interesting challenge for a L2 level. 

When I can find the time I'll try to put together some more custom levels. I'd quite like to build a whole Tribe's worth (ie. 10) in a chosen style, once I can figure out which tileset is the most versatile for making a decent puzzle. After all, as I discovered with my original CustLemm packs, fashioning a worth-while puzzle is a puzzle in itself (and definitely something I'm only average at, unlike some of the supremos around here). 

At the moment I've been messing about with Space teleports, seeing how they are implemented in the level itself. Seems as though they correspond directly to the order in which they're placed in the level, eg. teleport #1 beams to teleport #2, #3 to #4, and so on...

[GuyPerfect]

You seem to have a knack for building levels that look well-put together, with just the right balance of style and functionality.

What about me? )-: (-:

I make a particular effort to be artistic while making puzzles that hopefully require a little thought. I know! Maybe you just missed the levels I posted earlier! (-:

Beach - The Clam Spammer
Cavelem - Spelunk 'n' Dunk
Classic - Always the Long Route

You cannot scroll or directly select another tile/object when a tile/object is currently selected in the picker [...]

This is my fault. When I modified the input logic to allow the level boundary to be dragged into the picker box without canceling the drag, I inadvertantly made it impossible to use the picker interface while an element is already selected for insertion. The result is that when you attempt to use it, you're actually placing the element in the level but behind the picker box.

On a different note, did you manage to find out about the precise positioning of trigger areas? I think in reveal mode these could be very useful.

I haven't looked into it. It's not on my priority list. In fact, it's on that other list of things I've only briefly considered. I honestly don't see a need for it; the objects always behave the same, so it just requires a little trial and error at most to find out what makes each element function.

Seems as though they correspond directly to the order in which they're placed in the level, eg. teleport #1 beams to teleport #2, #3 to #4, and so on...

Very good to know. I haven't investigated this yet, but it's good to see it's a rather simple approach.

[GuyPerfect]

Time to drastically change the course of the topic!

The current setup for the editor uses two input systems kinda layered onto each other. The main editor interface was made to interact with the window surface directly, and when it came time to implement the picker interface, I noticed that it wasn't going to work out very well. I started a new project and designed a well-thought-out, intuitive, dynamic user control system and was quite happy with the result. However, the way I coded the editor interface in the first place would basically require a total rewrite to make it conform to the superior user control setup, so I just left it as it was and plastered the picker interface on top of it. The result has a lot of "if" statements.

Needless to say, I'm not exactly satisfied with the way the program is set up, and I really want to start all over using everything I've learned along the way. It's the first time I actually had to implement a user interface of this type, and what I learned now will be especially useful in all my future projects, so this is by no means a loss.

Bearing in mind the needs of the program and the people using it, I'm strongly considering doing the project over in Java. I'd like to hear what's on you guys' minds. Oh yeah, and don't try the whole "But you're almost done with this one!" argument. There's only a sliver of a chance that the project in its current iteration will ever see another build. (-:

[Mindless]

Bearing in mind the needs of the program and the people using it, I'm strongly considering doing the project over in Java. I'd like to hear what's on you guys' minds.

Considering that you've given people a working build of the current editor to play around with, I don't think they'll mind if you want to rebuild from the ground up.

[GuyPerfect]

I've created this new thread for level editor production. This thread can fall of the page as far as I'm concerned, though it may be kept alive as an outlet for custom levels.

[Dullstar]

Seeing this thread always at the top in the Lemmings Discussion board is a little annoying.  Would it be a good idea to have the topic moved to Level Designing?

[ccexplore]

While I'm fine with the topic being moved, surely you're joking when you say this thread is "always" at the top in the Lemmings Discussion board?!?!?   I mean, the topic was dead for like more than 2 weeks until I posted a new level 2 days ago.  And you can't blame me for the general lull in the forums right now --I wouldn't have expected this topic to be on top even as recently as maybe 2 weeks ago before the lull.

[chaos_defrost]

Also if this is in Level Design, can someone with the editor send it to me to use?

If GP doesn't want me having it, though, never mind.

[Dullstar]

Can anyone get this level to work?  My DOSBOX locked up when I ran it.

Did your copy of L2 ever work before (if not, you might have a bad copy).  Also, did you remember to run L2-fix instead of just L2?

Anyway, the level works fine for me, and I enjoyed it.  It wasn't too hard but it does require a little thought, and there are no horrible precision or tedium involved, which I greatly appreciate after certain other levels...... 

But I should note that I left some skills unused (see spoiler).  Maybe that's expected but just in case there's some sort of backroute?

leftover: 1 roper, 1 floater
 

I actually need to test that.  I'm probably going to finish The Lemmings Strike Back! first, though.

Sometime I will get that level tested for the remaining skills at the end...  it's been so long since I created it I don't remember what my intended solution was - although I'll probably remember when I load up the level.

Anyways, I guess I should get to redownloading the editor (stupid...  buggy...  computer...  that...  doesn't...  work...  on...  any...  given...  operating system).

[Nagnazul]

So...where is the latest version of this editor? I'd like to play around with it.

[ccexplore]

http://perfectkiosk.net/lemmings/lgl2_10302009.zip

That's where I originally got it anyway, not sure if link is still working but give it a try.  Stick the programs inside the zip file into the folder where the Lemmings 2 program (L2.exe) is located on your computer.  If you don't have Lemmings 2, get it from abandonia.com.