The Perfect Blend...

[Clam]

One Superlem for each Lemming, amirite?

I know. Just as long as you're careful with this when designing the levels, I'm sure it'll work out OK. And if not, we'll pick it up during playtesting

I don't understand why paintball guns should be banned but it's still okay to be a suicide bomber...

We could go round in circles all day here. I just don't think that point-and-click to kill an enemy lemming is very creative.

Come to think of it, it might be cool if you had to paintball your own lemmings (if you have no Walkers to make your lemming stop working) - or, even better, a teammate's lemmings in co-op.

[DragonsLover]

Heya! Sorry to be late! :winktounge:

I have myself some video game programming knowledges and I dreamed to make, yet, "another" Lemmings clone with some improvements. So, say, if you need some help, just let me know!

The way I saw my Lemmings game was mostly similar to the first original Lemmings game but with the improvements of the other games in the saga with some "extra". I'll talk about that later. I wanna say my opinion about what you said :

No unlimited blockers :
The Blocker should be considered as a skill with the "possibility" to have some.

More skills :
I'd like to see more skills, but not a lot, and especially not those that performs similar tasks like blockers and attractors, diggers and stompers, bashers and fencers... Will talk much about that later.

Saving lemmings for future levels :

Connecting edges :
I'd like much to have the game like Cheapo Copycat. A nice classical 2D pixelised game where you can scroll around, thus having huge levels.

Blockers having the possibility to stop blocking :
It was already possible in the first Lemmings to dig beneath a blocker to free him, but I guess that having a "Walker" skill or a "Remove skills" tool may be interesting so that, it won't only apply to blockers, but for any skilled Lemmings so that you could stop them to perform their tasks. Example : stopping a Basher, a Builder... Also, you could have this "tool" disabled for some levels.

Less "Hero Lemming" Levels :

Sure! But also, it could be nice just to let "a few" of those sometimes for the "easy" levels. Having different Lemmings working together would be nice, but I just hope it won't become "too hard" to masterize.

Different musics :
I liked the way in L2 to have a music related with the "style" of the level. In case, two similar "style" levels would appear in a row, I guess it could be nice to have around 2 different musics for each "style".

Fan :
I wasn't attracted that much with that so, no thanks.

No blood :
Having the traps to be similar to those of L2 would be nice. There wasn't that much blood in the game.

Pickups :
I think it may be a nice idea to have "pickups" but not only to the specific Lemming that takes it. Say, if you have a "+10 Floaters" box and a Lemming takes it, then you have +10 Floaters in your skill bar so that you could give them to ANY Lemmings on the level. That would be so cool!

Adjustable Release Rate :
That's for sure! Nothing much to say!

Fast Forward and Replay features :
That's for sure! Nothing much to say!

Mixing up themes :
Having different styles and colors is a must have! I disliked to have tribes in L2.

Eliminate "blocks" system :
That's for sure! Nothing much to say!

Unlocking levels :
I guess this could be nice!

Bulletproof steel :
I liked the way it was in L2 and Cheapo Copycat so, yeah, it's a must have in the game.

Using different directions for building/digging skills :
Well... nah, I didn't like that. I'm preferring to have different skills for each different directions. Digger to dig down, Basher to dig horizontally, and so on... and not having a single Dig skill and select the direction you want. However, I'd like to have a Miner that can digs diagonally upward.

Having Arrows and Landmarks for skills : I'm so-so with that...
I liked the Cheapo Copycat way for having an arrow above the selected Lemming to help selecting. I also liked the right-click on a Lemming to force that lemming to perform a task if he's in the melee. I also liked the right-arrow and left-arrow keys to force the direction the Lemming had to do the task.
I didn't play L3 much, but I remembered about the green and red arrows to specify if yes or no, you could do the skill in the direction you want. But, as I said before, I don't like the L3 way of giving skills. As for a cross or an arrow at the place the Lemming will blow after the countdown, it's hard to say... Everything can change while the countdown is running and the Lemming walking. If, say, a Lemming dig a hole or build some steps in front of the Exploder, the emplacement of the arrow will constantly change. It also have to check for objects and different factors. It "can" be possible, but it will then be quite hard to code as there's so much factors that can influence that.

Now, for skills, I like those that can be useful in combinations with other skills. Some are useful on their own and, well, I don't like that much.
First of all, no fan-skill. It's already done so, it's okay!
Second, no "select and aim" skills. I'm sorry, but I'm much into "you click and it's done". Thus, we also remove : Archer, Roper and SuperLem. Sorry, but the Roper is way too powerful. It can acts like a wall, a platform or a diagonal bridge just for one. I'd like to use them separately with the proper skills.
Third, some skills are kinda similar and well, I don't see the point to have tons of similar way to dig or build. Some others are also kinda exaggerated. Let me talk about that :
- Attractor : it works like Blockers. Personally, it's no.
- Bazooka : I'm so-so with that one. In an Army style maybe, but that's all.
- Bomber : if this skill is available, then maybe it's better removing the Exploder skill then... Bomber doesn't kill the Lemming and you can also select the place, but not with the Exploder. What do you think about that? Which one should be used?
- Filler : hmmm, I don't really like to have "liquids" as skills. Platformer does that work better. Personally, I'd remove that one.
- Grenadier : I didn't play L3 much so, what's that?
- Laser Blaster : It's a nice skill! It's like the digger, but upwards. Personally, I'd keep it.
- Magno Booter : I don't know... it's really hard to say. I'm much with Clam Spammer with that one.
- Mortar : same as the Bazooka.
- Paintballer : err... no.
- Skater : having ice wasn't fun, so no.

Personally, the must-have skills should be :
Basher
Blocker
Bomber*
Builder
Climber
Digger
Exploder*
Floater
Jumper
Laser Blaster - This one can be nice for Climbers or removing Blockers
Miner (also upward)
Platformer - This one can be nice for Bashers (to bash through them) and Shimmers.
Runner
Shimmer
Slider
Stacker - This one can be nice for Diggers (to dig through them) and Climbers. Created walls can also act as Blockers.
Swimmer
Walker

All these skills placed together can give a nice gameplay and nice strategies in levels. The others I stated above : Bazooka, Magno Booter, Mortar, and maybe the other few ones I didn't talk much about, could be used as "Special" skills or alternate skills in some levels.

Now, some interesting features I'd like to see :
- Gravity : I guess it could be nice to have different Gravity levels so that it can increases or decreases the safe-fall distance (imagine a level with strong gravity so that Lemmings die by falling 10-only pixels). We could also make the Lemmings fall upward like in Cheapo Copycat so that, if a Lemming falls in the "ceiling", he will die.
- Teleporters : Same like L2 Space Tribe or Cheapo Copycat.
- Different exits : Does someone here played Ducks? I guess it can be nice to save a certain amount of Lemmings in an exit and save some other amount in another one on the same level.
- Switches : How about triggering a switch to create a platform or disabling a trap? It would work like "pickups" but instead, it could trigger something on the level. We could also make them "toggle".
- Water flooding level : Just imagine a level where the water level never stops to increase so that you must hurry to save your friends before they die.
- And so on... there's too many possibilities!

I guess that's all for now, I already wrote a lot! :winktounge:

[GuyPerfect]

I just don't think that point-and-click to kill an enemy lemming is very creative.

The idea occurred to me last night that the Paintballer could just stun the target Lemming without removing him from the game. They weren't exactly lethal in Lemmings Paintball, but they disqualified you from the stage nonetheless.

Unless someone comes up with a better skill that borrows an element from Lemmings Paintball, this one's gonna stay. I want at least one skill from Paintball and Lomax in the mix.

Using different directions for building/digging skills :

I'm leaning towards this direction myself. Some of the most thinking-est levels I've played were "I need to go up, but I only have X up-building tools. How to do it!??!??!?"

[...] no "select and aim" skills. I'm sorry, but I'm much into "you click and it's done".

This falls into the category of saying no to something because it doesn't adhere to tradition. I'm afraid I can't accept that as a reason against these skills.

imagine a level with strong gravity so that Lemmings die by falling 10-only pixels

There are several walls of text in this thread already, so I don't blame you for missing it... This project will not be using a pixel-style terrain-interaction model, but it will be constructed mathematically instead. A standard-definition 10 pixels is quite a bit more distance than a high-definition 10 pixels. I want the graphics to be able to scale up without affecting gameplay.

- Switches : How about triggering a switch to create a platform or disabling a trap?

I take it you haven't played Lemmings Revolution, then? (-:

I haven't put a great deal of thought into environments just yet. Still thinking about general gameplay and the technical aspects.

[Clam]

It was already possible in the first Lemmings to dig beneath a blocker to free him, but I guess that having a "Walker" skill or a "Remove skills" tool may be interesting so that, it won't only apply to blockers, but for any skilled Lemmings so that you could stop them to perform their tasks. Example : stopping a Basher, a Builder... Also, you could have this "tool" disabled for some levels.

Another possibility would be to make a blocker stop blocking by giving him any skill. Make this require a hotkey (eg. shift) so that you don't unblock him by mistake. I don't think blockers should be completely static as they have been previously, when the other skills aren't.

As for a cross or an arrow at the place the Lemming will blow after the countdown, it's hard to say... Everything can change while the countdown is running and the Lemming walking.

I have considered that. You could just update it every second during the countdown, rather than constantly, based on the current layout of the terrain. On the other hand, if you want to know where the lemming will explode (given the present conditions) before you start the countdown, which was my original idea, you would need to update it constantly. Using the L2 bomber instead might be a better idea.

In general, I would like to see some sort of "precognition" system that lets the player see negative outcomes before they happen, and thus avoid them. The alternative is that the player has to restart the level because they misjudged slightly and clicked the lemming at the wrong time. As long as the player is following the right strategy (which they obviously are if they have selected the right skill and highlighted the right lemming - the whole system would be context-sensitive) then they shouldn't be punished in this way. That would be a complete waste of time for the player and cause a great deal of frustration. Another use for this would be to determine whether or not a lemming will splat after a fall.

- Gravity : I guess it could be nice to have different Gravity levels so that it can increases or decreases the safe-fall distance (imagine a level with strong gravity so that Lemmings die by falling 10-only pixels).

I like this. It would allow for some creative level designs. Not sure about antigravity though - that seems a little too bizarre.

- Teleporters : Same like L2 Space Tribe or Cheapo Copycat.

I personally don't like confusing teleportation systems. But what about some of the other L2 features like cannons and trampolines?

The idea occurred to me last night that the Paintballer could just stun the target Lemming without removing him from the game.

I'd be okay with that. Just so long as it does away with the sort of "negative strategy" like what I posted before.

[GuyPerfect]

Not sure about antigravity though - that seems a little too bizarre.

Lemmings Revolution had a feature that inverts gravity for a Lemming when he walks over it. Another one on the ceiling would get him back down. It worked really well, and made you look at how you could interact with the terrain from the other side.

(Click for full version)

[Clam]

Now that I think about it, that does open up some mind-boggling possibilities. Downwards climbers? Upwards sliders? Shimmying on the floor? This could get complicated if you include the magno booter skill though - you'll need to make it clearly visible which way "up" they are.

- Grenadier : I didn't play L3 much so, what's that?

_{(sorry I forgot this before)}
The lemming would throw a grenade, which would bounce around and explode after 8 seconds. This was pretty much a crapshoot, which made it largely useless unless you had a huge target area or a "hint" in the form of a marking on the map (which was usually there when needed in L3).

[GuyPerfect]

I suppose now's as good a time as any to go over map features. Here's a pretty good list, although I may have forgotten a few.

Deformable Terrain
The keystone of any Lemmings level. Earth that is in the way, and can be moved out of the way with digging tools and explosions.

Indestructible Terrain
Similar to the above, but it's there forever and ever.

One-Way Terrain
Deformable terrain that can only be destroyed if dug through in a specific direction.

Water
Effectively deadly terrain. Logic dictates that it must rest within indestructible terrain, lest it be forced to leak out. When a Lemming steps in, it drowns if it can't swim.

Traps
Any number of different hot spots on the map that will destroy a Lemming that steps on its trigger. Usually affects only one Lemming at a time.

Launchers
Any number of transporation features that physically make the Lemming fly off in a given direction. Cannon, etc.

Teleporters
Spacial transportation that move a Lemming from one location to another.

Trampolines
Variable-response features that reflect a Lemming that falls on them.

Actors
Non-Lemming characters that move around the map. Usually dispatch Lemmings on contact, but not necessarily.

Switches
Lever-style switches that are pushed in one way or the other depending on the direction of the Lemming that passes it. Can be used to toggle the states of various other map features:

• Metal doors and platforms appear and disappear
• Pools of water fill up and drain out
• Features that affect individual Lemmings are toggled on and off

Laser Gates
For lack of a better name. A one-time switch that is activated when something passes through it, at which point it disables itself.

Counters
A type of switch that activates when a given number of Lemmings pass through its area of effect, then disables itself.

Gravity Inverters
Inverts the direction of gravity for a single Lemming when he steps on it.

Hasteners
Also for lack of a better name. Temporarily speeds up a Lemming that passes through.

[Clam]

A couple of things I would like to add to this list:

- "Fake" ground that disintegrates when a lemming walks over it
- Chains (not in their current form since they use the fan)
- Springboards and rope slides, which were present in 3D lemmings. These would probably fall into the same category as teleporters.
- Crash mats. These usually accompanied springboards and trampolines in 3D, and would allow lemmings to survive long falls.

[GuyPerfect]

Okay, so that's the list. Now what do we do with it? (-:

[Dullstar]

I think we need lemmings that can survive certain things.

A Lemming that can survive water without a swimmer.
A Lemming that can survive falls without being a floater.
A Lemming that is invulnerable to element-based traps.
A Lemming that is invulnerable to blade-based traps.
A Lemming that is invulnerable to all traps.
A Lemming that fits all of the above criteria.

These lemmings would not be as common of course as the normal ones for obvious reasons. If I recall correctly, I think water lemmings were in Revolution.

Also, lemmings should be able to swim through water, but if they are not a swimmer or water lemming, they would drown after a short distance. That way lemmings could cross really small water gaps.

[The Doctor]

What would I love to see in a new Lemmings game...

The original 8 skills, and no more. Oversaturation killed Lemmings 2. Having ONLY 8 skills meant you had defined constraints, the same for each level. You could go down, across, diagonally, up, or dead in your tracks. What more do you need? Anything else just makes hero Lemmings easier to come by, and the need to think becomes absent.

Quirky themes. Crystal, Hell, Earth, Pink (aka Roman), Yellow (aka Egypt)... They're all rather surreal, except for maybe Yellow. I mean, little men running through the pits of hell and jumping into a giant pig... that's just brilliant. Waltzing around an ice-palace outlined with giant crystals the size of blue whales? Great! ... It fits Lemmings. Changing that prospect causes a failure to maintain an aspect of the spirit of Lemmings.

Lemmings need to die. If there's a need to save them all, then... no. There needs to be bombers, they need to die when they fall from a height, they need to drown, they need to burn. Otherwise, what are we saving them from? ... Just the clock, it seems.

That's all.

Maybe that's holding too close to the original? Well... it is. The original is the best, and say what you like, the sales said it all. The multitude of ports say it all. The fangames which only recreate the original say it all. The forums that are dedicated to all things Lemmings but 99% of the time only touches on the originals or Xmas or Oh No say it all. The fansites on the original say it all.

Don't mess with success. (Or else you get a PS3...)

[GuyPerfect]

One of life's big lessons is that popular opinion has no effect on how the world works. The reason the original Lemmings is more well-known than any of its successors is because it had considerably greater exposure. "Hey, check out this new Lemmings thing!" was followed by "Lemmings 2? Eh, it's just more of the same." The same thing happened with Metroid Prime: while Prime 2 was a considerably better game, more people bought/reviewed/played the first one because it had been a good 8 years since the previous Metroid game, whereas Prime 2 was "more of the same."

That said, as one who has tested each iteration of the Lemmings franchise to see the good and the not-so-good, I for one was disappointed in the Classic tribe from Lemmings 2. I opted to do it last for whatever reason, and was bored out of my mind with the same ol' skills over and over. Good thing it was only ten levels.

[Simon]

What do you want to make exactly? A game for hardcore Lemmings fans - or a game that a broader audience might play?

I read this article linked to from gamedev.net some time ago. The author talks about what he calls "core support": Pick a simple concept and stick with it throughout the game. Everything else in the game should enhance the player experience of that main concept.

Why is a lemming explosion such a nice thing to watch in L1, and why does the rope trap have 39 frames of animation, all while the Exiter animation is rather boring in comparison? Why did the designers add in the awesome nuke button if hitting ESC gets the job done as well? :-)

So whatever you're going to include from L2 or - even more remote - Paintball, try to keep the concept simple. Just as you've said, L1 has cemented what people expect from a Lemmings game. It is manoevering lemmings around hundreds of fun ways to die.

Multiplayer adds to the core perfectly, sacrifice (i.e. kill) some of your lemmings to send your opponents' complete hordes to doom (kill kill kill)!

On the other hand, making a game just for the hardcore fans is fine as well. I love L2 for example, so add in everything from that game and then add even more, I won't ever complain. :-D But then you really have to make it a good tool - with action replay, savestates etc. and the best level editor in the world - to deliver something perfect.

-- Simon

[Tim]

To just make some sort of lemmings sequel is an achievement on its own (whether it gives a positive or negative reception). So, you could go and try out a program that covers a range of lemmings features (single adventure, multiplayer, 3D all in one), or one that only focuses on a direct remake/sequel to the original Lemmings. Personally because I have really only played Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings, I would like to see a sequel to those games with an extra bit of multiplayer in it as well like some ports of the game has, but more of the idea that is in EricLang's proposal (co-operative, or battle mode). And to finish of, a level editor that Simon wants to see in it.

I thought about using a Game Engine to make the final product, but of course it depends on the type of product being made as to which game engine is used. A free engine would probably fit the role of a single adventure game, whereas a paid one would better suit the range of features that everyone here is talking about.

EDIT: I just noticed that Simon has already gotten into one of those engines for a sequel that he has been making. Is it sort of like what Ive been describing?

[GuyPerfect]

What do you want to make exactly? A game for hardcore Lemmings fans - or a game that a broader audience might play?

I'd like to make a game accessible to new players but at the same time satisfying for Lemmings veterans. When I design games, I like to use the perspective of someone who would be selling it later. What kinds of things would you want to consider? Who will be your target audience? In my case, almost universally, one of the project goals is to create a game that everyone can enjoy.

Personally because I have really only played Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings, I would like to see a sequel to those games with an extra bit of multiplayer in it as well like some ports of the game has, but more of the idea that is in EricLang's proposal (co-operative, or battle mode). And to finish of, a level editor that Simon wants to see in it.

This thread is a bit cluttered and disorganized, but I'd already planned to implement multiplayer, gameplay utilities and a level editor.

I thought about using a Game Engine to make the final product, but of course it depends on the type of product being made as to which game engine is used. A free engine would probably fit the role of a single adventure game, whereas a paid one would better suit the range of features that everyone here is talking about.

I strongly believe in building new projects from the ground up from scratch. Using some arbitrary software package or even code from previous projects promotes laziness more than good practice. After all, every time you work on a project, you get a little better at what you do and learn something new in the process. It only makes sense to use that experience in the creation of the next chapter of your handywork.

To that end, this new Lemmings project--which again is not in development at this time and may not be for a while--would use a brand new, self-made engine tailored specifically to the needs of the project. Half the fun for me is figuring out how to make a vision come alive, so even given the opportunity, I wouldn't use someone else's code just for the end result.