The Perfect Blend...

[GuyPerfect]

I don't want this to sound like an "I'm making an awesome Lemmings game" thread, so I'd like to stress that this is only for things that might conceivably, possibly become a project somewhere down the line in the distant future... if I feel like it... maybe.

Having officially played every Lemmings game now (including Adventures of Lomax, which is actually a pretty decent game), I'm considering the merits of making one of my own and, if I do, the mechanics and features of such a project. No need to question my capabilities: I don't stick to Game Maker and Rich-Text for help files. I have game programming experience, so... Well, just pretend I'm the best there ever was and don't worry about it. It's not the how I'm concerned with at this point. Just the what.

For a few years I've been in this little side-scroller mood. Even though today's technology can produce the most breathtaking of 3D graphics doesn't mean you have to make 3D games with it. While side-scrolling games with 3D graphics (see: Super Smash Bros.) can be pulled off to good effect, I'm currently a big fan of old-fashioned, comical, hand-drawn 2D (like the new Wario Land). I can't stand pixelated graphics, personally. They were fine when that's all there was, but brand new fan projects end up sticking with the retro look and it just feels off because there's so much good out there that can be done... So long story short, this theoretical, non-existant project would be a high-res 2D game with comical, hand-drawn graphics.

Throughout my experiences in the Lemmings plethora of good and bad software workmanship, I've been able to put together a list of things that I like and dislike about each of the games and what I think would be good for a new game:

• I don't like unlimited Blockers. Lemmings 3 (All New World/Chronicles) allows you to do this, and while it's convenient, going back and playing Lemmings 2 afterwards really opened my eyes to how much more interesting the levels are when you don't have all the Lemmings corraled all the time. Sports 10, anyone?
• I like the Lemmings 2 idea of a larger assortment of skills, where only a small selection is available in any given level. Likewise, I like the idea of putting skill items on the level itself like Lemmings 3. The best compromise I can think of is that picking up a skill on the map puts it in your global inventory for any Lemming to use. "You receive 3 Floater!" and what-not.
• If saving Lemmings for use in later levels is a goal, the levels should not require the Lemmings to die. Exploder should not be a requirement! It bothered me to no end being forced to kill off much of my Classic tribe, especially since you need to save 53 for a golden piece of the talisman. That was nuts.
• Revolution's connecting edges made things a lot more interesting, though I'm not sure there's any good way to present that with a flat display...
• Blockers should be able to stop blocking. Using a Jumper works on the Attractor; why not Blocker? Perhaps using the Blocker skill a second time makes it back into a Walker?
• Levels should be designed to minimize the use of the "hero" Lemming: the one that builds the path for all the others to take while distracted by a Blocker or Attractor. That's just boring. Even simple multitasking is an improvement. Nothing crazy that requires at least five pointing devices, but something a little more than The One.
• Each stage definitely needs to have a different music than the previous one, even if there are only two to choose from and they alternate. The bagpipes are haunting me in my dreams.
• I liked the fan. I want to see it make a comeback.
• No blood. Lemmings 3's trap animations were cute, but it just seems so out-of-place. Gotta go for that E rating, after all!

That's all I can think of for now. Anyone else have anything they've always wanted to see/not see in a Lemmings game?

[Clam]

Hey GP, welcome to the forums!

I've got a few ideas, but I'll start by sharing my opinions on the above. (Apologies in advance for the HUGE post. I like to be thorough ) Firstly though I'd like to stress that none of the concepts in the Lemmings series are necessarily "good" or "bad", as they lead to very different styles of gameplay which may or may not appeal to some.


Unlimited blockers - I agree that this, as well as super micromanagement of builders/diggers, is a little frivolous. Having full control over every lemming does take away some of the frustration that was present in the original game, and allows you to focus more on other aspects, but you lose the thrill of having a horde of mindless critters heading for their doom. And after all, isn't that what Lemmings is about?

More skills - Personally I didn't like this as it took away some of the great simplicity of the original game. The original eight skills are easy to use, even for first-timers. IMHO, any additional skills should be similarly easy to get to grips with (eg. jumper, runner, swimmer, filler), whereas some of the other skills in L2 are certainly not. Also, skills that are essentialy the same as existing ones (like the stomper) are unnecessary.

Pickups - This is a tough one. Having to collect pickups before using skills reduces the freedom (and the requirement) of the player to use them creatively and invent a solution from start to finish. On the other hand, I like the idea of the skills being available in a particular location and making the player go and get them.

Saving lemmings for future levels - I'd leave this idea and go back to the original way. My reason is this: some of the best levels from the first game are the ones where only a few lemmings fall from the trapdoor. These added some real flavor and diversity to the game. Now, to have this sort of level in a tribe starting with 60 lemmings and carrying them through, you'd have to sacrifice a ton of lemmings in the levels leading up to it. Because of this, such a level would have to be left to the end (even if it isn't the hardest one), or be followed up by levels with heaps of "bonus" lemmings, which would be too predictable. Basically, what I'm saying here is that the order of levels should be determined by difficulty and not the number of lemmings.

Sacrificing lemmings - To me, this is an essential part of the game. Things like choosing who to bomb and where, death drops straight from the trapdoor and other situations where the best you can do is to minimise losses rather than eliminate them entirely, add a whole dimension to the game that L2 and L3 sorely lack. The absolute 100% requirement in L3 is a definite no. To go with this, though (and something which definitely should have been present in L2) there has to be something that you can see before and during the level to tell you how many you need to save. This should be a number rather than a percentage. A display of the "death toll" to date would be nice too

Connecting edges - I haven't played Revo so I don't know.

Unblocking - this is definitely a good idea, although there are plenty of methods available already for removing a blocker. This also ties in with another idea of mine (which I might post later).

Less "hero lemming" levels - Definitely. "Hunt the Nessy" and similar are terrible levels and a total waste of time. However, if you want to share the work among multiple lemmings, you need to be careful with "split focus" situations where you need to keep track of two or more widely separated groups at once. A pet hate of mine is the "snap" moment, where two lemmings require orders at exactly the same time. Any situation where you need to pause to give multiple orders is bad IMO. And what do you mean by "five pointing devices" and "The One"?

Music - I'd go with about a dozen tracks (classical and/or traditional music seems appropriate for Lemmings). The 17 tracks of the original game is probably too many, but the 6 in ONML are too few IMO (both DOS version, I don't know if the others had more or less). How about shuffling the tracks so you don't know what you'll get each time?

Fan - I thought this was a little to fiddly to work with (also, see my points on simplicity and micromanagement).

Blood - fair enough. That's entirely your call, I guess, but honestly I'd have to agree here. This trap (conveniently available in smiley form :shutup: ) is a case in point.


Now for some random thoughts of my own:

- Adjustable release rate. One thing I hated about L2 was waiting for 50 lemmings to trail through to the exit after I've solved the puzzle. Besides that though, it gives you more options, like dodging traps through "safety in numbers" (actually for an updated version this possibility could be reduced or removed).
- Fast forward and replay features are huge for reducing frustration. EricLang's level editing and playtesting program, Lemmix, also inclided frameskip and savestates, which might be worth considering.
- Mix up the themes from one level to the next, rather than having tribes, to add variety while playing through the game.
- Eliminate the "blocks" system of L3 and 3D. This seems archaic to me and wouldn't fit with your "comical, hand-drawn" idea.

I have a some more ideas still, but I'll let others share their thoughts first.

[GuyPerfect]

Hey GP, welcome to the forums!

Thanks! It was the least-dead Lemmings forum community I could find. (-:

More skills - Personally I didn't like this as it took away some of the great simplicity of the original game. The original eight skills are easy to use, even for first-timers. IMHO, any additional skills should be similarly easy to get to grips with (eg. jumper, runner, swimmer, filler), whereas some of the other skills in L2 are certainly not. Also, skills that are essentialy the same as existing ones (like the stomper) are unnecessary.

Agreed on all points with the exception that I like not having the same 8 skills every single level. The really quirky skills (Thrower, Pegasus Wings, Planter) can be omitted, and the ones that are only moderately different from existing skills (Stomper, Club Basher, Rock Climber) can bear to go as well. Some of the permanent powers are nice to keep, though, such as Runner, Swimmer and the like.

Saving lemmings for future levels - I'd leave this idea and go back to the original way.

I agree, for reasons in addition to what you provided, that this is probably the best idea. For each level, if you get X Lemmings and have to save Y, it's a lot less emphasis on collecting 'em all rather than solving the puzzle with the available tools.

Connecting edges - I haven't played Revo so I don't know.

The game took place on the surface of a cylinder, which means the left and right edges were continuous not unlike Pac-Man. However, unlike Pac-Man, since the camera could pan around the level, you didn't get the impression that Lemmings were warping from one side to the other. Many levels consisted of solutions that involved working Lemmings completely around the cylinder multiple times, which isn't easy to represent in a 2D graphics environment.

And what do you mean by "five pointing devices" and "The One"?

Five pointing devices will allow you to give instructions to five different Lemmings simultaneously, is all. Just an exaggeration. The One is the aformentioned hero Lemming.

Music - I'd go with about a dozen tracks (classical and/or traditional music seems appropriate for Lemmings). The 17 tracks of the original game is probably too many, but the 6 in ONML are too few IMO (both DOS version, I don't know if the others had more or less). How about shuffling the tracks so you don't know what you'll get each time?

I intend to do a large number of remixes consisting of selections from all Lemmings games. My current idea is to have every stage associated with one particular track (not necessarily having a unique tune for each level), but it's also crossed my mind that the music can change playlist-style while you're working. Listening to the same thing for too long can be maddening, and some levels certainly make you sit there a while.

Fast forward and replay features are huge for reducing frustration. EricLang's level editing and playtesting program, Lemmix, also inclided frameskip and savestates, which might be worth considering.

In addition to adjustable release rate, these are good ideas. I can't see save states being a part of the main product, though. Wouldn't frame skip fall under the category of fast forward?

Mix up the themes from one level to the next, rather than having tribes, to add variety while playing through the game.

My current considerations will be removing the Tribes concept altogether. It's fun seeing different colors every now and then, but I can't see it having any practical application, and that's a lot of hand-drawn cels to draw! The Lemmings all have different costumes.That's not a simple palette-swap like Lemmings 2. As for variety, well, basically all the Tribe themes will be lumped into the main levels. First you're out in the wilderness one level, then it's medieval, then all of a sudden it's snowing in the next level, etc.

Eliminate the "blocks" system of L3 and 3D. This seems archaic to me and wouldn't fit with your "comical, hand-drawn" idea.

Correct. In fact, I'm working out some of the techincal details that would enable the stage geometry to be mathematical instead of a per-pixel collision model. This is something that will be necessary for scaling the graphics between standard definition and high definition (as well as 4:3 and 16:9 aspect ratios) without altering gameplay, plus it'll be fun to do. It'll also allow all graphics to remain antialiased, even after you destroy a chunk of terrain. Oh, and the Filler skill. Frightful to implement, but it'd be awesome. (-:

I have a some more ideas still, but I'll let others share their thoughts first.

Awww. C'mon!

I should probably also have mentioned that I would like to make a multiplayer option in some way. I'm aware the original Lemmings had a 2-player mode, but I honestly haven't done much work with it. Any suggestions?

[Mindless]

Hey GP, welcome to the forums!

Thanks! It was the least-dead Lemmings forum community I could find. (-:

We're not dead... just dormant. 

[Clam]

The game took place on the surface of a cylinder, which means the left and right edges were continuous not unlike Pac-Man.

I said that I haven't played Revolution, not that I've never heard of it . I'm just not sure how great an effect that has on strategy etc.

I can't see save states being a part of the main product, though. Wouldn't frame skip fall under the category of fast forward?

The frameskip feature in Lemmix allows you to instantly jump forward 10 seconds or 1 minute. Essentially, it serves the same purpose as fast forward, but both are useful in different situations.

Awww. C'mon!

Well, it was getting late when I posted that. Here's a couple more for ya

- I hear Revolution had a different method of unlocking levels, rather than the standard "linear" way. Maybe you could have a few levels to choose from (per difficulty level) at one time.

- Steel needs to be totally bulletproof, like in L2. The indestructable nature of it should be inherent in the steel terrain, not something that is added over the top (like in L1/ONML), for consistency. There are surprisingly many ways to get through steel in the original game

- I liked how in L3 you could use the building and digging skills in multiple directions, but as I said before I thought the ability to change direction at will was a little over the top. The L3 system of using bricks/spades as you go encourages this somewhat, but using one skill point for each order (the original way) would not. So what about having builders and diggers go in 8 or 16 directions (minus a couple - down for builders, up for diggers), or even a free choice where you point to the destination and click to make the lemming go there. Maybe even remove the 12 brick limit for builders. This idea comes from the roper in Lemmings 2 - the freedom of choice made this one of the greatest skills ever.

- Following on from the above, you could display an arrow in the direction of the cursor to show where the lemming will go when the skill is used. The arrow would end at the first impassable obstacle - a wall or ceiling for a builder, or steel or thin air for a digger. As in L3, you would have a green arrow if the skill can be used, and a short red arrow when it can't. Even if you stick to the original skills, this idea could be worked in, with an arrow appearing when you have selected the skill (if it is available) and have the pointer over a lemming. You could even have an arrow or a cross on the level where a bomber would explode after a 5 second coundtown

Another thought I had, which would probably be better for a small modification of the original game rather than a full remake, is a sort of "power mode", where a lemming using a skill gains additional powers. These would be available in the same way as the other skills, either with a fixed number available from the start, or as a pickup on the map if you choose to go that route. I have some ideas as to what this could do for the original 8 skills, but it might be tricky to make this work for some L2 skills like the runner and swimmer. I'm sure I could come up with something though.

[Simon]

Hi!

Fast forward and replay features are huge for reducing frustration. EricLang's level editing and playtesting program, Lemmix, also inclided frameskip and savestates, which might be worth considering.

In addition to adjustable release rate, these are good ideas. I can't see save states being a part of the main product, though.

In my opinion, a good game is always a good tool as well. Providing savestates would increase the user efficiency of trying new ideas in a level. I'd opt for anything that helps! (in singleplayer at least, heh. :-D)

I should probably also have mentioned that I would like to make a multiplayer option in some way.

If you're planning competetive multiplayer, I think I've got some interesting ideas to share. While writing L++, which has networked multiplayer, there were lots of unexpected design corrections.

Although I use identical game mechanics for singleplayer and multiplayer, a multiplayer level calls for a very different skillset. The Amiga/SNES two-player mode used the regular skillset of Climber, Floater, ..., Digger. This is ideal for the singleplayer mode, however:

Lemmings control should be a little more direct in multiplayer than in singleplayer.

With more direct control, not every single level has to be a huge bunch of terrain, and we get a better chance to recover from other players' sabotage attempts. Thus, I implemented some skills from L2. As you are keen to improve upon what's already there in L1, such a concept might fit to your game as well!

Exploder with knockback - This is the main way to dislodge enemy blockers, at the expense of an own lemming. One can even use it to punish players who hoard all their lemmings directly under the entrance hatch, which could be very boring. Sneak a few lemmings in, BOOM, everyone's flying all over the place. :-D

Before I included this Exploder, we had to limit the blocker skill strictly. Blockers placed on steel were absolutely permanent, and if the goals weren't set on steel, you could simply dig away all the gound under enemy goals. Remember, removing terrain is easier and faster than re-building it. For this reason, the original Amiga/SNES levels often didn't feature blockers at all, which limits the level terrain possibilities harshly. For almost every terrain, blockers are needed to control lemming flow. But the stronger they are, the better of a strategy hoarding/trailblazing (using a single hero) becomes. Thus, this exploder regulates it again, which is what we want.

Walker skill - This works exactly as in L3: It reverts workers back to walkers, including blockers, or turns walkers around. This is the more direct lemming control mentioned above. It's pretty important if you need fast and accurate control of a few certain lemmings, which is common in multiplayer.

Jumper skill - This allows to extract a single lemming from a well-hoarded crowd, and generally makes it easier to get around. However, if we were going to include the Jumper in every multiplayer map, along with walker, blocker, knockback exploder, a lot of the eight possible skill panels are already full. :-) The map creator must be able to choose what skills to give, like for singleplayer levels.

More building skills - This should remedy the fact that it's easier to destroy terrain than to build up to new places. Platformer and especially Roper seem like ideal additions to a multiplayer game.

Level design - Every player wants to make a path from his hatch(es) to his goal. Thus, for maximum fun, have the players' paths cross each other - early, and often. Of course, give enough space and freedom to allow different strategies, but always make them interfere with each other by having crossed paths!

Revolution's connecting edges made things a lot more interesting, though I'm not sure there's any good way to present that with a flat display...

For multiplayer, this is very important because it balances the starting positions.

I don't know how to implement it the best way. I myself just scroll freely over the edges and let the stuff from the other side scroll into view, so that one can't notice any seam. Of course, this feels odd at first if the level size is one screen, but you can scroll freely in all four directions. :-D

-- Simon

[GuyPerfect]

- I hear Revolution had a different method of unlocking levels, rather than the standard "linear" way. Maybe you could have a few levels to choose from (per difficulty level) at one time.

The stage select screen is a big triangle starting with a column of 3 on the left, then 4, then 5, etc. all the way up to 14 on the right. Completing a stage unlocks the adjacent two stages in the next column over. So stage 1 in the first column unlocks stages 1 and 2 in the second column, stage 2 in the first column unlocks stages 2 and 3 in the second column and so-forth. It's easier to show with a picture.


(Click for full version)

Easier stages are on the left, and harder stages are to the right. I really like this particular setup, even if it does clutter the screen, because it gives you more options to keep playing in the event you get stumped on one level and want to move onto something else for a while.

- Steel needs to be totally bulletproof, like in L2. The indestructable nature of it should be inherent in the steel terrain, not something that is added over the top (like in L1/ONML), for consistency. There are surprisingly many ways to get through steel in the original game

I honestly can't fathom how someone can design indestructible terrain that can be nonetheless destroyed. It doesn't make any sense. Either someone was really lazy or there's a major bug in the system. It won't be a problem. In the setup I have in mind, terrain deformation will ignore indestructible terrain, so it won't even be possible to bypass it.

- I liked how in L3 you could use the building and digging skills in multiple directions, but as I said before I thought the ability to change direction at will was a little over the top. The L3 system of using bricks/spades as you go encourages this somewhat, but using one skill point for each order (the original way) would not. So what about having builders and diggers go in 8 or 16 directions (minus a couple - down for builders, up for diggers), or even a free choice where you point to the destination and click to make the lemming go there.

In Kirby's Adventure, you had Fire (flamethrower breath) and Fireball (self projectile), but in Kirby Super Star, you had a generic "Fire" ability that could do a number of different fire-based attacks (including the two from Adventure) depending on how it was used. It's the same idea here: should a Lemming have a single ability that can take on the functions of Builder, Platformer and Stacker depending on how it's used? I've definitely considered it, but I'll have to run it through some more scrutiny before I decide one way or the other.

Maybe even remove the 12 brick limit for builders. This idea comes from the roper in Lemmings 2 - the freedom of choice made this one of the greatest skills ever.

Even the Roper had a maximum distance. I think the building tools should stay at 12 blocks. However, the idea has occurred to me that a Lemming can be assigned as a "designated Builder" and will automatically grant itself another Builder skill from your inventory every time it runs out of blocks... so long as you still have Builders left and it doesn't hit anything.

Another thought I had, which would probably be better for a small modification of the original game rather than a full remake, is a sort of "power mode", where a lemming using a skill gains additional powers.

You've lost me on this one. Could you explain in greater detail?

In my opinion, a good game is always a good tool as well. Providing savestates would increase the user efficiency of trying new ideas in a level. I'd opt for anything that helps! (in singleplayer at least, heh. :-D)

I reeeeeally don't know if that'd be a wise implementation. I imagine all my projects being released in the mainstream, so I like to have my products maintain a level of professionalism that I'd expect to see in a retail game. Save states encourages haphazarded experimentation more than planning out a course from the start, which removes a big part of what Lemmings is all about in my opinion.

Exploder with knockback - This is the main way to dislodge enemy blockers, at the expense of an own lemming. One can even use it to punish players who hoard all their lemmings directly under the entrance hatch, which could be very boring. Sneak a few lemmings in, BOOM, everyone's flying all over the place. :-D

You are mean for making me drool. This would also be a good place to implement the Grenadier from Lemmings 3. It's like the Thrower, but the projectile bounces around and explodes. (-:

Walker skill - This works exactly as in L3: It reverts workers back to walkers, including blockers, or turns walkers around. This is the more direct lemming control mentioned above. It's pretty important if you need fast and accurate control of a few certain lemmings, which is common in multiplayer.

This was my auxiliary idea for making Blockers stop blocking. It definitely makes a lot more sense than having a Miner start building a bridge when he's down far enough. I'll toss this into my bin of "things to strongly consider."

I don't know how to implement [continuous edges] the best way. I myself just scroll freely over the edges and let the stuff from the other side scroll into view, so that one can't notice any seam. Of course, this feels odd at first if the level size is one screen, but you can scroll freely in all four directions. :-D

Copernicus-style scrolling can definitely be disorienting, so I think I'd rather omit the feature altogether. As with mutli-function abilities, I'll have to consider it further at a later time.

-----

I've considered competitive multiplayer as well as cooperative. Co-op stages where each player has a different starting location and a different selection of abilities can really make for some interesting puzzle situations. After all, you can't control the other person's Lemmings, nor can you use skills from their inventory.

Would it be a bad idea to allow more than two teams? Forget about colors for a minute. Would three or four groups of Lemmings get too crowded?

[Clam]

The stage select screen is a big triangle starting with a column of 3 on the left, then 4, then 5, etc. all the way up to 14 on the right. Completing a stage unlocks the adjacent two stages in the next column over. So stage 1 in the first column unlocks stages 1 and 2 in the second column, stage 2 in the first column unlocks stages 2 and 3 in the second column and so-forth. It's easier to show with a picture.

Thanks for the pic. That definitely seems a good idea, so you don't get completely stuck because you can't solve one particular level.

Even the Roper had a maximum distance. I think the building tools should stay at 12 blocks. However, the idea has occurred to me that a Lemming can be assigned as a "designated Builder" and will automatically grant itself another Builder skill from your inventory every time it runs out of blocks... so long as you still have Builders left and it doesn't hit anything.

I know the roper has a maximum distance. What I meant was the idea of choosing any direction you like comes from the roper. As for the brick limit, I figured that if a digger can keep going as long as it is unimpeded, then maybe a builder could too. It doesn't have to, of course. I like the idea of auto-reloading though. And what do you think of the "arrows" idea? I think this would remove a great deal of frustration from the game by taking the guesswork out of aiming. Leave this out of multiplayer mode of course

And I agree that the walker skill makes a lot of sense for making a lemming stop building or digging, or to undo a blocker.

You've lost me on this one. Could you explain in greater detail?

In addition to having stockpiles of your 8 skills (or however many), you would also have a certain amount of "power ups" (this sounds kind of lame - preferably call them something else). When a lemming is performing an action, you could use this to activate a special ability. For example, a climber could climb an overhang like a rock climber, or a builder could gain more bricks (perhaps an infinite amount until he hits something).

I've considered competitive multiplayer as well as cooperative.

Co-op multiplayer mode is a fantastic idea. I've played Burnout Paradise (very different game, I know) and the co-op multiplayer challenges make this twice the game it would be otherwise. I don't think 4 players would be too many for a co-op mode (but also include 2 and 3 player levels), as long as the total number of lemmings is less than 100 or so. Competitive multiplayer should be strictly 1v1 to prevent doubleteaming.

[GuyPerfect]

Just jotting down some notes, here. This is effectively every Lemmings skill and whether or not I'd like to include it in this project.

Legend:
+ = Considering inclusion
- = Considering omission
? = Not sure either way
Green = Was present in Lemmings
Blue = Only available in Lemmings 3
Orange = New skill idea

+ Archer
+ Attractor
- Ballooner - Requires use of Fan
+ Basher - Can be combined with Digger and Miner
+ Bazooka - Can be combined with Mortar
+ Blocker
+ Bomber
+ Builder - Can be combined with Platformer and Stacker
+ Climber
- Club Basher - Too similar to Basher
+ Digger - Can be combined with Basher and Miner
- Diver - Excessively situational
+ Exploder
- Fencer - Too similar to Basher
+ Filler
- Flame Thrower - Anecdotal
+ Floater
- Glue Pourer - Too quirky
+ Grenadier - Fun for multiplay
- Hadouken - Copyright infringement
- Hang Glider - Requires use of Fan
+ Helmet - Protects a Lemming from one trap and incorporates an Adventures of Lomax element
- Hopper - Quirky
- Icarus Wings - Requires use of Fan
- Jet Pack - Requires use of Fan
+ Jumper
- Kayaker - Too similar to Swimmer
? Laser Blaster - Good tool, but is it too quirky?
- Magic Carpet - Anecdotal + Fan
+ Magno Booter
+ Miner - Can be combined with Basher and Digger
+ Mortar - Can be combined with Bazooka
+ Paintballer - Replaces Hadouken for multiplay and incorporates a Lemmings Paintball element
- Parachuter - Too similar to Floater + Fan
- Planter - Quirky
+ Platformer - Can be combined with Builder and Platformer
- Pole Vaulter - Quirky
- Rock Climber - Too similar to climber
- Roller - Too similar to Runner
+ Roper
+ Runner
- Sand Pourer - Anecdotal
- Scooper - Too similar to Miner
+ Shimmer
? Skater - Is ice a good idea?
- Skier - Highly situational
+ Slider
- Spearer - Quirky
+ Stacker - Can be combined with Builder and Platformer
- Stomper - Too similar to Digger
? Superlem - Fun to use, but is it a good idea?
- Surfer - Too similar to Swimmer + Fan
+ Swimmer
- Thrower - Anecdotal
- Twister - Requires use of Fan
+ Walker - Stops a Lemming from doing stuff and can turn them around

[Clam]

That looks like a fairly comprehensive list. A couple of things I'm not sure about:

• Blockers and attractors fill similar roles. You probably won't need both, especially if you use walkers for unblocking. Also, the attractor in L2 was inconsistent at times so you would need to be careful with implementation.
• Archers were difficult to use (though not as bad as spearers), and I'd consider them to be too quirky.
• Surely the magno boots are too quirky? I'd suggest that the ones you've marked with a "?" are as well.
• Sliders do pretty much the same thing as Floaters.
• Which bomber skill are you likely to include? Exploder, L2-style bomber or L3-style bombs?
• I'm worried that paintball guns would turn multiplayer into a shooter, akin to Worms. Killing the other team's lemmings instead of letting them wander to their own deaths seems against the spirit of Lemmings to me. Maybe there could be another game mode where the aim is to kill the other team's lemmings (with guns, explosives, other tools or even hand-to-hand combat) instead of leading them to the exit. The bazooka/mortar might be best left to this mode too.

[GuyPerfect]

• I was under the impression that I had a really good reason for keeping Attractor, but I can't remember what it was. However, don't assume that Walker will be available in every level.
• I found Archer pretty easy to work with. Plus, it's a mouse-control skill, so I'd like to keep it.
• Magno Boots too quirky? They have specific, practical uses. It's not like dropping some seeds for a small platform to appear for no apparent reason. As for all the question marks, what qualifies as too quirky?
• Sliders let you change direction and they won't save you if you fall too far. I consider them distinctly different from Floater.
• Exploder's in the list, and I haven't decided what would make the best Bomber. If it blows up immediately, it's like an Exploder that doesn't kill the Lemming. If you leave it laying around for a few seconds, it's only safe for The Hero.
• Paintballer, in addition to being a mouse-control skill, can be granted in limited quantities. 5 Paintballers in a level means you can't just wail away at the other guy the whole time.

[Clam]

I found Archer pretty easy to work with. Plus, it's a mouse-control skill, so I'd like to keep it.

Yes, it's mouse-controlled, which is nice, but it's difficult to judge the effect of gravity over long distances.

Magno Boots too quirky? They have specific, practical uses. It's not like dropping some seeds for a small platform to appear for no apparent reason. As for all the question marks, what qualifies as too quirky?

In general, I'd consider a skill to be "quirky" if it is too far removed from the original "classic" skills (and the ones in L3). The skater was far too situational too.

Sliders let you change direction and they won't save you if you fall too far. I consider them distinctly different from Floater.

Good point. The impression that I got from L2 is that this was just a substitute floater. The slider didn't turn around if there was no overhang below the wall, and often in L2 this was the case.

Paintballer, in addition to being a mouse-control skill, can be granted in limited quantities. 5 Paintballers in a level means you can't just wail away at the other guy the whole time.

I still think it goes against the spirit of the game to directly kill the other team's lemmings.

[GuyPerfect]

Yes, it's mouse-controlled, which is nice, but it's difficult to judge the effect of gravity over long distances.

I understand the Archer to be used for short-distance platform construction, not cross-country bulls-eyes. The fact that it can be fired in any direction is very handy.

In general, I'd consider a skill to be "quirky" if it is too far removed from the original "classic" skills

I consider quirkiness to be things that are either impractical or so eccentric that they don't make much sense (Icarus Wings is a good example). Magno Boots don't fall into either category. As for comparing them to the "classic" skills, I'm afraid I can't accept that as a reason against new skills. If adhering to the original Lemmings game for the sake of tradition or familiarity was all that mattered, I might as well do a remake. However, my goal is to create a new Lemmings experience.

I still think [Paintballer] goes against the spirit of the game to directly kill the other team's lemmings.

The spirit of multiplayer is getting as many Lemmings as possible--regardless of team--into your base. It wouldn't make much sense to do away with Lemmings on the other team if they will end up on your own score sheet. The Paintballer would be better used to disrupt a Builder or Blocker rather than simply reduce the number of total Lemmings from the other team. It has specific strategic value that would add a lot of flavor to the experience.

[Clam]

I understand the Archer to be used for short-distance platform construction, not cross-country bulls-eyes.

I can recall a few situations in L2 where extremely precise shots were required. There were a couple of levels that required you to shoot an arrow straight up (so it would land vertically and block the lemmings) in tight spaces, as well as one where you needed a fairly accurate shot from a distance to create a platform so the lemmings can fall down safely. If you want to avoid long-distance shots, then many of the remaining applications of the archer (blocking, bridgebuilding) are covered by the roper.

I consider quirkiness to be things that are either impractical or so eccentric that they don't make much sense

OK, that's probably a better way to put it. I can see the magno boots and superlem having a practical use. On the other hand, they might encourage a "hero" strategy because they grant a single lemming access to a different part of the level that the others can't reach.

Right now I don't want to say that these skills definitely "should" or "shouldn't" be in the game. I would like to point out though that if you do include them, you need to be very careful when making the levels to avoid hero strategies and strategies that are needlessly difficult to execute, and also to prevent backroutes (unintended solutions).

The spirit of multiplayer is getting as many Lemmings as possible--regardless of team--into your base.

I'm not talking about the spirit of multiplayer here (and besides, what you've written there is the goal of multiplayer, not the spirit). I just don't think guns have any place in a Lemmings game.

I can see this being used by a lemming under your control heading for the enemy's exit to knock off some of their own lemmings before they get there. To me, that seems like a pretty low strategy and something that shouldn't be encouraged. Besides, there are plenty of other ways to disrupt enemy lemmings - knockback explosions for example.

[GuyPerfect]

If you want to avoid long-distance shots, then many of the remaining applications of the archer (blocking, bridgebuilding) are covered by the roper.

One Superlem for each Lemming, amirite?

I just don't think guns have any place in a Lemmings game. [...] there are plenty of other ways to disrupt enemy lemmings - knockback explosions for example.

I don't understand why paintball guns should be banned but it's still okay to be a suicide bomber...

[Clam]

One Superlem for each Lemming, amirite?

I know. Just as long as you're careful with this when designing the levels, I'm sure it'll work out OK. And if not, we'll pick it up during playtesting

I don't understand why paintball guns should be banned but it's still okay to be a suicide bomber...

We could go round in circles all day here. I just don't think that point-and-click to kill an enemy lemming is very creative.

Come to think of it, it might be cool if you had to paintball your own lemmings (if you have no Walkers to make your lemming stop working) - or, even better, a teammate's lemmings in co-op.

[DragonsLover]

Heya! Sorry to be late! :winktounge:

I have myself some video game programming knowledges and I dreamed to make, yet, "another" Lemmings clone with some improvements. So, say, if you need some help, just let me know!

The way I saw my Lemmings game was mostly similar to the first original Lemmings game but with the improvements of the other games in the saga with some "extra". I'll talk about that later. I wanna say my opinion about what you said :

No unlimited blockers :
The Blocker should be considered as a skill with the "possibility" to have some.

More skills :
I'd like to see more skills, but not a lot, and especially not those that performs similar tasks like blockers and attractors, diggers and stompers, bashers and fencers... Will talk much about that later.

Saving lemmings for future levels :

Connecting edges :
I'd like much to have the game like Cheapo Copycat. A nice classical 2D pixelised game where you can scroll around, thus having huge levels.

Blockers having the possibility to stop blocking :
It was already possible in the first Lemmings to dig beneath a blocker to free him, but I guess that having a "Walker" skill or a "Remove skills" tool may be interesting so that, it won't only apply to blockers, but for any skilled Lemmings so that you could stop them to perform their tasks. Example : stopping a Basher, a Builder... Also, you could have this "tool" disabled for some levels.

Less "Hero Lemming" Levels :

Sure! But also, it could be nice just to let "a few" of those sometimes for the "easy" levels. Having different Lemmings working together would be nice, but I just hope it won't become "too hard" to masterize.

Different musics :
I liked the way in L2 to have a music related with the "style" of the level. In case, two similar "style" levels would appear in a row, I guess it could be nice to have around 2 different musics for each "style".

Fan :
I wasn't attracted that much with that so, no thanks.

No blood :
Having the traps to be similar to those of L2 would be nice. There wasn't that much blood in the game.

Pickups :
I think it may be a nice idea to have "pickups" but not only to the specific Lemming that takes it. Say, if you have a "+10 Floaters" box and a Lemming takes it, then you have +10 Floaters in your skill bar so that you could give them to ANY Lemmings on the level. That would be so cool!

Adjustable Release Rate :
That's for sure! Nothing much to say!

Fast Forward and Replay features :
That's for sure! Nothing much to say!

Mixing up themes :
Having different styles and colors is a must have! I disliked to have tribes in L2.

Eliminate "blocks" system :
That's for sure! Nothing much to say!

Unlocking levels :
I guess this could be nice!

Bulletproof steel :
I liked the way it was in L2 and Cheapo Copycat so, yeah, it's a must have in the game.

Using different directions for building/digging skills :
Well... nah, I didn't like that. I'm preferring to have different skills for each different directions. Digger to dig down, Basher to dig horizontally, and so on... and not having a single Dig skill and select the direction you want. However, I'd like to have a Miner that can digs diagonally upward.

Having Arrows and Landmarks for skills : I'm so-so with that...
I liked the Cheapo Copycat way for having an arrow above the selected Lemming to help selecting. I also liked the right-click on a Lemming to force that lemming to perform a task if he's in the melee. I also liked the right-arrow and left-arrow keys to force the direction the Lemming had to do the task.
I didn't play L3 much, but I remembered about the green and red arrows to specify if yes or no, you could do the skill in the direction you want. But, as I said before, I don't like the L3 way of giving skills. As for a cross or an arrow at the place the Lemming will blow after the countdown, it's hard to say... Everything can change while the countdown is running and the Lemming walking. If, say, a Lemming dig a hole or build some steps in front of the Exploder, the emplacement of the arrow will constantly change. It also have to check for objects and different factors. It "can" be possible, but it will then be quite hard to code as there's so much factors that can influence that.

Now, for skills, I like those that can be useful in combinations with other skills. Some are useful on their own and, well, I don't like that much.
First of all, no fan-skill. It's already done so, it's okay!
Second, no "select and aim" skills. I'm sorry, but I'm much into "you click and it's done". Thus, we also remove : Archer, Roper and SuperLem. Sorry, but the Roper is way too powerful. It can acts like a wall, a platform or a diagonal bridge just for one. I'd like to use them separately with the proper skills.
Third, some skills are kinda similar and well, I don't see the point to have tons of similar way to dig or build. Some others are also kinda exaggerated. Let me talk about that :
- Attractor : it works like Blockers. Personally, it's no.
- Bazooka : I'm so-so with that one. In an Army style maybe, but that's all.
- Bomber : if this skill is available, then maybe it's better removing the Exploder skill then... Bomber doesn't kill the Lemming and you can also select the place, but not with the Exploder. What do you think about that? Which one should be used?
- Filler : hmmm, I don't really like to have "liquids" as skills. Platformer does that work better. Personally, I'd remove that one.
- Grenadier : I didn't play L3 much so, what's that?
- Laser Blaster : It's a nice skill! It's like the digger, but upwards. Personally, I'd keep it.
- Magno Booter : I don't know... it's really hard to say. I'm much with Clam Spammer with that one.
- Mortar : same as the Bazooka.
- Paintballer : err... no.
- Skater : having ice wasn't fun, so no.

Personally, the must-have skills should be :
Basher
Blocker
Bomber*
Builder
Climber
Digger
Exploder*
Floater
Jumper
Laser Blaster - This one can be nice for Climbers or removing Blockers
Miner (also upward)
Platformer - This one can be nice for Bashers (to bash through them) and Shimmers.
Runner
Shimmer
Slider
Stacker - This one can be nice for Diggers (to dig through them) and Climbers. Created walls can also act as Blockers.
Swimmer
Walker

All these skills placed together can give a nice gameplay and nice strategies in levels. The others I stated above : Bazooka, Magno Booter, Mortar, and maybe the other few ones I didn't talk much about, could be used as "Special" skills or alternate skills in some levels.

Now, some interesting features I'd like to see :
- Gravity : I guess it could be nice to have different Gravity levels so that it can increases or decreases the safe-fall distance (imagine a level with strong gravity so that Lemmings die by falling 10-only pixels). We could also make the Lemmings fall upward like in Cheapo Copycat so that, if a Lemming falls in the "ceiling", he will die.
- Teleporters : Same like L2 Space Tribe or Cheapo Copycat.
- Different exits : Does someone here played Ducks? I guess it can be nice to save a certain amount of Lemmings in an exit and save some other amount in another one on the same level.
- Switches : How about triggering a switch to create a platform or disabling a trap? It would work like "pickups" but instead, it could trigger something on the level. We could also make them "toggle".
- Water flooding level : Just imagine a level where the water level never stops to increase so that you must hurry to save your friends before they die.
- And so on... there's too many possibilities!

I guess that's all for now, I already wrote a lot! :winktounge:

[GuyPerfect]

I just don't think that point-and-click to kill an enemy lemming is very creative.

The idea occurred to me last night that the Paintballer could just stun the target Lemming without removing him from the game. They weren't exactly lethal in Lemmings Paintball, but they disqualified you from the stage nonetheless.

Unless someone comes up with a better skill that borrows an element from Lemmings Paintball, this one's gonna stay. I want at least one skill from Paintball and Lomax in the mix.

Using different directions for building/digging skills :

I'm leaning towards this direction myself. Some of the most thinking-est levels I've played were "I need to go up, but I only have X up-building tools. How to do it!??!??!?"

[...] no "select and aim" skills. I'm sorry, but I'm much into "you click and it's done".

This falls into the category of saying no to something because it doesn't adhere to tradition. I'm afraid I can't accept that as a reason against these skills.

imagine a level with strong gravity so that Lemmings die by falling 10-only pixels

There are several walls of text in this thread already, so I don't blame you for missing it... This project will not be using a pixel-style terrain-interaction model, but it will be constructed mathematically instead. A standard-definition 10 pixels is quite a bit more distance than a high-definition 10 pixels. I want the graphics to be able to scale up without affecting gameplay.

- Switches : How about triggering a switch to create a platform or disabling a trap?

I take it you haven't played Lemmings Revolution, then? (-:

I haven't put a great deal of thought into environments just yet. Still thinking about general gameplay and the technical aspects.

[Clam]

It was already possible in the first Lemmings to dig beneath a blocker to free him, but I guess that having a "Walker" skill or a "Remove skills" tool may be interesting so that, it won't only apply to blockers, but for any skilled Lemmings so that you could stop them to perform their tasks. Example : stopping a Basher, a Builder... Also, you could have this "tool" disabled for some levels.

Another possibility would be to make a blocker stop blocking by giving him any skill. Make this require a hotkey (eg. shift) so that you don't unblock him by mistake. I don't think blockers should be completely static as they have been previously, when the other skills aren't.

As for a cross or an arrow at the place the Lemming will blow after the countdown, it's hard to say... Everything can change while the countdown is running and the Lemming walking.

I have considered that. You could just update it every second during the countdown, rather than constantly, based on the current layout of the terrain. On the other hand, if you want to know where the lemming will explode (given the present conditions) before you start the countdown, which was my original idea, you would need to update it constantly. Using the L2 bomber instead might be a better idea.

In general, I would like to see some sort of "precognition" system that lets the player see negative outcomes before they happen, and thus avoid them. The alternative is that the player has to restart the level because they misjudged slightly and clicked the lemming at the wrong time. As long as the player is following the right strategy (which they obviously are if they have selected the right skill and highlighted the right lemming - the whole system would be context-sensitive) then they shouldn't be punished in this way. That would be a complete waste of time for the player and cause a great deal of frustration. Another use for this would be to determine whether or not a lemming will splat after a fall.

- Gravity : I guess it could be nice to have different Gravity levels so that it can increases or decreases the safe-fall distance (imagine a level with strong gravity so that Lemmings die by falling 10-only pixels).

I like this. It would allow for some creative level designs. Not sure about antigravity though - that seems a little too bizarre.

- Teleporters : Same like L2 Space Tribe or Cheapo Copycat.

I personally don't like confusing teleportation systems. But what about some of the other L2 features like cannons and trampolines?

The idea occurred to me last night that the Paintballer could just stun the target Lemming without removing him from the game.

I'd be okay with that. Just so long as it does away with the sort of "negative strategy" like what I posted before.

[GuyPerfect]

Not sure about antigravity though - that seems a little too bizarre.

Lemmings Revolution had a feature that inverts gravity for a Lemming when he walks over it. Another one on the ceiling would get him back down. It worked really well, and made you look at how you could interact with the terrain from the other side.

(Click for full version)

[Clam]

Now that I think about it, that does open up some mind-boggling possibilities. Downwards climbers? Upwards sliders? Shimmying on the floor? This could get complicated if you include the magno booter skill though - you'll need to make it clearly visible which way "up" they are.

- Grenadier : I didn't play L3 much so, what's that?

_{(sorry I forgot this before)}
The lemming would throw a grenade, which would bounce around and explode after 8 seconds. This was pretty much a crapshoot, which made it largely useless unless you had a huge target area or a "hint" in the form of a marking on the map (which was usually there when needed in L3).

[GuyPerfect]

I suppose now's as good a time as any to go over map features. Here's a pretty good list, although I may have forgotten a few.

Deformable Terrain
The keystone of any Lemmings level. Earth that is in the way, and can be moved out of the way with digging tools and explosions.

Indestructible Terrain
Similar to the above, but it's there forever and ever.

One-Way Terrain
Deformable terrain that can only be destroyed if dug through in a specific direction.

Water
Effectively deadly terrain. Logic dictates that it must rest within indestructible terrain, lest it be forced to leak out. When a Lemming steps in, it drowns if it can't swim.

Traps
Any number of different hot spots on the map that will destroy a Lemming that steps on its trigger. Usually affects only one Lemming at a time.

Launchers
Any number of transporation features that physically make the Lemming fly off in a given direction. Cannon, etc.

Teleporters
Spacial transportation that move a Lemming from one location to another.

Trampolines
Variable-response features that reflect a Lemming that falls on them.

Actors
Non-Lemming characters that move around the map. Usually dispatch Lemmings on contact, but not necessarily.

Switches
Lever-style switches that are pushed in one way or the other depending on the direction of the Lemming that passes it. Can be used to toggle the states of various other map features:

• Metal doors and platforms appear and disappear
• Pools of water fill up and drain out
• Features that affect individual Lemmings are toggled on and off

Laser Gates
For lack of a better name. A one-time switch that is activated when something passes through it, at which point it disables itself.

Counters
A type of switch that activates when a given number of Lemmings pass through its area of effect, then disables itself.

Gravity Inverters
Inverts the direction of gravity for a single Lemming when he steps on it.

Hasteners
Also for lack of a better name. Temporarily speeds up a Lemming that passes through.

[Clam]

A couple of things I would like to add to this list:

- "Fake" ground that disintegrates when a lemming walks over it
- Chains (not in their current form since they use the fan)
- Springboards and rope slides, which were present in 3D lemmings. These would probably fall into the same category as teleporters.
- Crash mats. These usually accompanied springboards and trampolines in 3D, and would allow lemmings to survive long falls.

[GuyPerfect]

Okay, so that's the list. Now what do we do with it? (-:

[Dullstar]

I think we need lemmings that can survive certain things.

A Lemming that can survive water without a swimmer.
A Lemming that can survive falls without being a floater.
A Lemming that is invulnerable to element-based traps.
A Lemming that is invulnerable to blade-based traps.
A Lemming that is invulnerable to all traps.
A Lemming that fits all of the above criteria.

These lemmings would not be as common of course as the normal ones for obvious reasons. If I recall correctly, I think water lemmings were in Revolution.

Also, lemmings should be able to swim through water, but if they are not a swimmer or water lemming, they would drown after a short distance. That way lemmings could cross really small water gaps.

[The Doctor]

What would I love to see in a new Lemmings game...

The original 8 skills, and no more. Oversaturation killed Lemmings 2. Having ONLY 8 skills meant you had defined constraints, the same for each level. You could go down, across, diagonally, up, or dead in your tracks. What more do you need? Anything else just makes hero Lemmings easier to come by, and the need to think becomes absent.

Quirky themes. Crystal, Hell, Earth, Pink (aka Roman), Yellow (aka Egypt)... They're all rather surreal, except for maybe Yellow. I mean, little men running through the pits of hell and jumping into a giant pig... that's just brilliant. Waltzing around an ice-palace outlined with giant crystals the size of blue whales? Great! ... It fits Lemmings. Changing that prospect causes a failure to maintain an aspect of the spirit of Lemmings.

Lemmings need to die. If there's a need to save them all, then... no. There needs to be bombers, they need to die when they fall from a height, they need to drown, they need to burn. Otherwise, what are we saving them from? ... Just the clock, it seems.

That's all.

Maybe that's holding too close to the original? Well... it is. The original is the best, and say what you like, the sales said it all. The multitude of ports say it all. The fangames which only recreate the original say it all. The forums that are dedicated to all things Lemmings but 99% of the time only touches on the originals or Xmas or Oh No say it all. The fansites on the original say it all.

Don't mess with success. (Or else you get a PS3...)

[GuyPerfect]

One of life's big lessons is that popular opinion has no effect on how the world works. The reason the original Lemmings is more well-known than any of its successors is because it had considerably greater exposure. "Hey, check out this new Lemmings thing!" was followed by "Lemmings 2? Eh, it's just more of the same." The same thing happened with Metroid Prime: while Prime 2 was a considerably better game, more people bought/reviewed/played the first one because it had been a good 8 years since the previous Metroid game, whereas Prime 2 was "more of the same."

That said, as one who has tested each iteration of the Lemmings franchise to see the good and the not-so-good, I for one was disappointed in the Classic tribe from Lemmings 2. I opted to do it last for whatever reason, and was bored out of my mind with the same ol' skills over and over. Good thing it was only ten levels.

[Simon]

What do you want to make exactly? A game for hardcore Lemmings fans - or a game that a broader audience might play?

I read this article linked to from gamedev.net some time ago. The author talks about what he calls "core support": Pick a simple concept and stick with it throughout the game. Everything else in the game should enhance the player experience of that main concept.

Why is a lemming explosion such a nice thing to watch in L1, and why does the rope trap have 39 frames of animation, all while the Exiter animation is rather boring in comparison? Why did the designers add in the awesome nuke button if hitting ESC gets the job done as well? :-)

So whatever you're going to include from L2 or - even more remote - Paintball, try to keep the concept simple. Just as you've said, L1 has cemented what people expect from a Lemmings game. It is manoevering lemmings around hundreds of fun ways to die.

Multiplayer adds to the core perfectly, sacrifice (i.e. kill) some of your lemmings to send your opponents' complete hordes to doom (kill kill kill)!

On the other hand, making a game just for the hardcore fans is fine as well. I love L2 for example, so add in everything from that game and then add even more, I won't ever complain. :-D But then you really have to make it a good tool - with action replay, savestates etc. and the best level editor in the world - to deliver something perfect.

-- Simon

[Tim]

To just make some sort of lemmings sequel is an achievement on its own (whether it gives a positive or negative reception). So, you could go and try out a program that covers a range of lemmings features (single adventure, multiplayer, 3D all in one), or one that only focuses on a direct remake/sequel to the original Lemmings. Personally because I have really only played Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings, I would like to see a sequel to those games with an extra bit of multiplayer in it as well like some ports of the game has, but more of the idea that is in EricLang's proposal (co-operative, or battle mode). And to finish of, a level editor that Simon wants to see in it.

I thought about using a Game Engine to make the final product, but of course it depends on the type of product being made as to which game engine is used. A free engine would probably fit the role of a single adventure game, whereas a paid one would better suit the range of features that everyone here is talking about.

EDIT: I just noticed that Simon has already gotten into one of those engines for a sequel that he has been making. Is it sort of like what Ive been describing?

[GuyPerfect]

What do you want to make exactly? A game for hardcore Lemmings fans - or a game that a broader audience might play?

I'd like to make a game accessible to new players but at the same time satisfying for Lemmings veterans. When I design games, I like to use the perspective of someone who would be selling it later. What kinds of things would you want to consider? Who will be your target audience? In my case, almost universally, one of the project goals is to create a game that everyone can enjoy.

Personally because I have really only played Lemmings and Oh No More Lemmings, I would like to see a sequel to those games with an extra bit of multiplayer in it as well like some ports of the game has, but more of the idea that is in EricLang's proposal (co-operative, or battle mode). And to finish of, a level editor that Simon wants to see in it.

This thread is a bit cluttered and disorganized, but I'd already planned to implement multiplayer, gameplay utilities and a level editor.

I thought about using a Game Engine to make the final product, but of course it depends on the type of product being made as to which game engine is used. A free engine would probably fit the role of a single adventure game, whereas a paid one would better suit the range of features that everyone here is talking about.

I strongly believe in building new projects from the ground up from scratch. Using some arbitrary software package or even code from previous projects promotes laziness more than good practice. After all, every time you work on a project, you get a little better at what you do and learn something new in the process. It only makes sense to use that experience in the creation of the next chapter of your handywork.

To that end, this new Lemmings project--which again is not in development at this time and may not be for a while--would use a brand new, self-made engine tailored specifically to the needs of the project. Half the fun for me is figuring out how to make a vision come alive, so even given the opportunity, I wouldn't use someone else's code just for the end result.

[Simon]

To just make some sort of lemmings sequel is an achievement on its own

Yes, that is true. I now feel bad for saying "you have to [...] to make it perfect." Didn't want to sound demanding - it was just that this topic is called "The Perfect Blend", heh.

In my case, almost universally, one of the project goals is to create a game that everyone can enjoy.

That is good. A game just feels right even for a veteran if it appeals to everyone. I encourage you to keep this idea for any future development. The only thing to watch out for is to not overload the game with features. This can be hard if you'd like to include something from every game, all the brainstorming in this thread would have to be properly filtered first.

I just noticed that Simon has already gotten into one of those engines for a sequel that he has been making. Is it sort of like what Ive been describing?

For L++, I use Allegro and Enet. Allegro is a game library for C(++), it is pretty low-level. It offers routines for graphics, input, timers, sound, etc., but not any physics. Allegro lets one do enough low-level stuff to learn quite a lot about game programming while still being platform independent. An alternative to Allegro would be SDL.

Enet is a simple networking library. It's a bit more comfortable than working with sockets directly, but my client/server logic looks similar to what one would write with bare sockets. So I've again learned something while using it. :-)

I strongly believe in building new projects from the group up from scratch. Using some arbitrary software package or even code from previous projects promotes laziness more than good practice.

This is correct up to a certain level. The most low-level code that still produces graphics will probably be platform specific. I think it's okay to abstract this away a bit.

On the other hand, I wouldn't ever write a Lemmings clone in Gamemaker. It's point-and-click development that does lots of things for you and has a scripting language for the strange stuff. Many developing decisions aren't made by the creator, the tool does it for him. The resulting games won't run on Linux, not even under Wine, and I think older versions' scripting code won't work with newer Gamemaker versions. I have a friend who could rant about this evil tool every day. ;-)

-- Simon

[Tim]

I strongly believe in building new projects from the group up from scratch. Using some arbitrary software package or even code from previous projects promotes laziness more than good practice. After all, every time you work on a project, you get a little better at what you do and learn something new in the process. It only makes sense to use that experience in the creation of the next chapter of your handywork.

To that end, this new Lemmings project--which again is not in development at this time and may not be for a while--would use a brand new, self-made engine tailored specifically to the needs of the project. Half the fun for me is figuring out how to make a vision come alive, so even given the opportunity, I wouldn't use someone else's code just for the end result.

Yes, that is true. I now feel bad for saying "you have to [...] to make it perfect." Didn't want to sound demanding - it was just that this topic is called "The Perfect Blend", heh.

-- Simon

I am sorry, I didnt mean to send a canon flying at this topic as it does talk about making the perfect project from the beginning, I just thought that all games are made with some sort of existing game engine (and therefore would be faster to build and release to the community). However as I can see that its not the case, I should now support the idea, even though I have no idea how I could pitch in, I havent done programing before and am a sitting duck in this case

I know that many major games take years to produce, though since this is all about a fan-created game I would have assumed it would have wanted to get some a bit quicker, but dont worry Im not saying to stop the project. I just want to see what I can do to assist here

[Simon]

I just thought that all games are made with some sort of existing game engine (and therefore would be faster to build and release to the community). However as I can see that its not the case

Maybe it's just a mixup of what everyone thinks upon hearing "game engine".

I wouldn't really call the library Allegro an "engine" because it's basic idea is to be a wrapper for platform specific functions, e.g. it invokes DirectX unter Windows. It's still listed on the Wikipedia page with all game engines, even if I'd call it a library only.

Libraries like these are pretty standard for indie games!

For me, a game engine is rather something that saves you writing a certain separated part of the game (usually game mechanics). If a big game manufacturer wants to make a modern 3D shooter, they will consider using an existing physics engine. If one writes code that moves fancy debris pixels around in an indie game with 2D spaceships shooting each other, we could refer to this rather isolated part of the logic as the particle engine.

-- Simon

[GuyPerfect]

The most low-level code that still produces graphics will probably be platform specific.

Already a step ahead of you. I've designed and implemented a simple API that will create a user window on Microsoft Windows and X Window System as well as create and bind an OpenGL rendering context to it. While the inner workings of the API are platform-dependant, that work is already done and the rest will only require a program to be written once and compiled for Windows, Linux and Mac OS without any modifications whatsoever.

I'll be implementing similar APIs for TCP/IP and audio output.

[Dullstar]

Always nice to hear about new lemmings games! 

[Mindless]

I'll be implementing similar APIs for TCP/IP and audio output.

Sounds like you're reinventing the wheel.  I reinvent the wheel more often than I should, but even I don't write my own platform-irrelevant APIs.  Couldn't you just use SDL/SDL_net instead?

[Dullstar]

Though I have a question.  Why reprogram the whole thing instead of use Lemmix or Lemmedit or something like that?

[GuyPerfect]

Instead of accusing you guys of not paying attention, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and reiterate a few key points:

• The goal of this project is to make a new Lemmings game; not modify an existing one.
• The layout and graphical style are completely different from anything else out there. Modification isn't even an option.
• I do not believe in using other people's code in my projects.
• I do believe that all of a project's code should be what the project needs. Nothing extra.
• The end result is not the only thing I'm after. I want the personal experience of creating this.

[Dullstar]

Instead of accusing you guys of not paying attention, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and reiterate a few key points:

• The goal of this project is to make a new Lemmings game; not modify an existing one.
• The layout and graphical style are completely different from anything else out there. Modification isn't even an option.
• I do not believe in using other people's code in my projects.
• I do believe that all of a project's code should be what the project needs. Nothing extra.
• The end result is not the only thing I'm after. I want the personal experience of creating this.

Good luck with that...  I'm making a much simpler game, and I still get annoyed with the development process sometimes (but it's better than never having the stuff made )

I'd like to see the end result!  Hope it's great!

[GuyPerfect]

I'd like to see the end result!  Hope it's great!

If the project ever gets started, you will!

[GuyPerfect]

Incidentally, I just received word that another fangame project I was to be involved in has been postponed, which means Lemmings gets bumped up a notch and is currently next on my list of prospective projects (after the one I'm working on). Looks like we won't be waiting as long as I thought before deciding if/when to get started on tihs.

[Dullstar]

You mean you haven't started it yet?!

I can give a few tips, but not many.  There is some software that might work to make this easier for you to do.

You could get MMF (which costs money )
Or you could use Construct, which is free!

[GuyPerfect]

I'm happy with the C programming language, but thanks anyway!

[Dullstar]

I've been wanting to learn some actual programming, because I imagine if I knew how, I'd be able to make something much more advanced than what I could make with MMF...

Do you think you could teach me a bit, maybe?

[GuyPerfect]

Eh, it's a bit of an involved field. A proficient programmer not only knows how to instruct a computer to do certain things, but also understands how those things happen on the internal circuitry and knows how to make the necessary considerations accordingly. For the time being, I recommend you find some programming tutorials via your favorite search engine. Once you're comfortable making things that are functional, I can help you dig into the deeper stuff and get really good at it.

BASIC and its variants are by far the easiest to learn if you've never programmed before. C and C++ are nearly universally supported, so if you learn one of them, you'll be able to write programs for virtually any computer. What I suggest is finding an old copy of Microsoft QBASIC and learning some of the fundamentals to programming through that, then move to C to see how most of the world does things. You can dip into C++ if you want, but be advised that there are many features in that language that are geared towards productivity at the loss of performance--which results in programmers not really knowing what the computer does when they tell it to do things--so I tend to avoid it like the plague.

[Dullstar]

Eh, it's a bit of an involved field. A proficient programmer not only knows how to instruct a computer to do certain things, but also understands how those things happen on the internal circuitry and knows how to make the necessary considerations accordingly. For the time being, I recommend you find some programming tutorials via your favorite search engine. Once you're comfortable making things that are functional, I can help you dig into the deeper stuff and get really good at it.

BASIC and its variants are by far the easiest to learn if you've never programmed before. C and C++ are nearly universally supported, so if you learn one of them, you'll be able to write programs for virtually any computer. What I suggest is finding an old copy of Microsoft QBASIC and learning some of the fundamentals to programming through that, then move to C to see how most of the world does things. You can dip into C++ if you want, but be advised that there are many features in that language that are geared towards productivity at the loss of performance--which results in programmers not really knowing what the computer does when they tell it to do things--so I tend to avoid it like the plague.

Well, I'll try and learn either C, or, if I can figure out what it is, the one used in Cave Story, because if I can find a way to look at the Cave Story script, I could change things a bit and see what happens to learn what effects what.

[Dullstar]

What would I love to see in a new Lemmings game...

The original 8 skills, and no more. Oversaturation killed Lemmings 2. Having ONLY 8 skills meant you had defined constraints, the same for each level. You could go down, across, diagonally, up, or dead in your tracks. What more do you need? Anything else just makes hero Lemmings easier to come by, and the need to think becomes absent.

Quirky themes. Crystal, Hell, Earth, Pink (aka Roman), Yellow (aka Egypt)... They're all rather surreal, except for maybe Yellow. I mean, little men running through the pits of hell and jumping into a giant pig... that's just brilliant. Waltzing around an ice-palace outlined with giant crystals the size of blue whales? Great! ... It fits Lemmings. Changing that prospect causes a failure to maintain an aspect of the spirit of Lemmings.

Lemmings need to die. If there's a need to save them all, then... no. There needs to be bombers, they need to die when they fall from a height, they need to drown, they need to burn. Otherwise, what are we saving them from? ... Just the clock, it seems.

That's all.

Maybe that's holding too close to the original? Well... it is. The original is the best, and say what you like, the sales said it all. The multitude of ports say it all. The fangames which only recreate the original say it all. The forums that are dedicated to all things Lemmings but 99% of the time only touches on the originals or Xmas or Oh No say it all. The fansites on the original say it all.

Don't mess with success. (Or else you get a PS3...)

Hey, I didn't say ALL lemmings would be able to do that, I just said there would be certain special (but rare) types that COULD!

[Clam]

Maybe it's a little early to be thinking about fun little extras, but this thought just crossed my mind. What if you could customize your lemmings? LittleBigPlanet has huge scope for customization (I don't have the game, but I've heard a lot about it), and other games do as well to a lesser extent, and I think this character design concept could be transferred very well to Lemmings.

If the game has a strong multiplayer aspect - which I doubt this new project could really do without - then this becomes an even better idea. You'd have a good incentive to play the singleplayer levels, and maybe even make some levels of your own, rather than jumping straight into multiplayer. And of course there'd be rewards for doing well in multiplayer too .

What do you think?

[Dullstar]

I don't know about what the developer thinks, but it's a good idea to me!

[Clam]

I should add that this idea could be extended to trapdoors and exits too. I think it would add a lot of flavor to multiplayer when you (and your opponent) control your own little tribe that you design yourself, rather than the generic green and blue guys.

[GuyPerfect]

From a technical standpoint, the method I've devised is to draw the Lemming animation cells by hand (whoever the super-ultra-talented artist happens to be), scan them into the computer, then trace over them digitally to produce vector graphics. On game load-up, the vector graphics are rendered into texture data, which allows them to be scaled indefinitely in either direction.

In addition to this fun hand-drawn stuff, there will be multiple layers of texturing (probably two or three) for each Lemming, allowing the shirt/hair to change color depending on what the Lemming is doing. The reason for the multiple layers is to enable color changes without preparing an entire set of animation cells (which will be quite plentiful) for every possible combination of colors.

Under these conditions, the potential for customizability is somewhat limited. But since the Lemmings will be 2D models of sorts, I suppose it will be possible to introduce optional "costume pieces" to overlay on top of them when the texture data is rendered.

[Clam]

How big do you plan to make the lemming sprites? I guess the visual effect of custom items is going to depend quite heavily on this.

In addition, I was thinking about some sort of "achievements" system. These are very common in recent games, and would tie in very well with customization (each achievement earned opens up a new costume piece or whatever), as well as (hopefully) being easy to implement.

I wonder also if we could introduce a scoring system for single player levels, to encourage players to find different solutions. This would be tricky though - it has been tried on these forums before, without much success.
(EDIT) Link to the thread where a scoring system was discussed. Personally, I think they tried to make this way too complicated, right from the start.

[GuyPerfect]

How big do you plan to make the lemming sprites? I guess the visual effect of custom items is going to depend quite heavily on this.

In the event you're asking about relative size compared to the screen, I figure the Lemmings 3 scale is a good reference, though they may end up a bit bigger or smaller depending on what looks and feels best. Otherwise, if you're asking about the pixel dimensions of the Lemming sprites, read my previous post and get back to me.

In addition, I was thinking about some sort of "achievements" system. These are very common in recent games, and would tie in very well with customization (each achievement earned opens up a new costume piece or whatever), as well as (hopefully) being easy to implement.

I'd already planned to unlock certain things like custom level elements and background musics. Achievements would be a good way to go about doing this.

I wonder also if we could introduce a scoring system for single player levels, to encourage players to find different solutions. This would be tricky though - it has been tried on these forums before, without much success.
(EDIT) Link to the thread where a scoring system was discussed. Personally, I think they tried to make this way too complicated, right from the start.

I've considered various methods for scoring level completions in single player. My ideas are kinda complicated as well, but they're very functional. This is what I'm considering:

Every level has a number of given Lemmings, a required number of Lemmings to save, and a maximum possible number of Lemmings that can be saved.  During level playtesting before release, the testers can devise a Max% solution for each level to determine what the maximum possible count happens to be.

For example, imagine a level where you get 35 Lemmings and the intended solution involves sacrificing 3 of them. This makes the intended number of saved Lemmings 32, though to give the player some slack to make mistakes or what-not, let's say that the required number of saved Lemmings is 30. However, the playtesters found a solution that sacrifices only one Lemming, which makes the maximum number of saved Lemmings 34.

Three scores are calculated to determine the value of your solution: Completion, Skills and Time. These need to be kept separate, as there is no way to elegantly combine them. Solutions are sorted by order of Completion > Skills > Time. If you save more Lemmings than someone else, your solution is ranked higher. If you save the same number of Lemmings but you used fewer skills, your solution is ranked higher. Lastly, if you both saved the same number of Lemmings with the same number of skills, but you did it faster, your solution is ranked higher.

The Completion score is calculated linearly between the required number of Lemmings and the maximum number of Lemmings; up to 100 points for max saved. Completion = RoundDown((Saved - Required) / (Max - Required) * 100)

The Skills score is calculated by summing all remaining available skills. If you have 2 Builders, 1 Blocker and 3 Runners left at the end, you get 6 points for Skills.

The Time score is simply the amount of time remaining on the clock.

So saving 33 Lemmings in our example (yielding a Completion of 75) with 7 skills left and 4:38 on the clock, you could notate your solution as 75-7-4:38, which would then be inserted into the leader board.

[Dullstar]

About the achievements:  I'm kinda neutral about that.  Would that be a good idea or not?

[GuyPerfect]

I'm thinkin' the Wario Land: Shake It! style of achievements. Imagine every stage having its own set of achievements that apply only to that stage. "Complete the stage without using any Blockers" or "Save all Lemmings" or what-not. The Kirby Air Ride/Super Smash Bros. Brawl style of checklist would go good as well, as a master set of challenges accessible from the main menu that become unlocked as you accomplish them anywhere in the game. "Complete all standard difficulty stages" and the like.

They certainly don't take away from gameplay or even get in the way, so I see no reason not to put them in. They give incentive to replay completed levels, at the very least.

[Clam]

Yeah, sorry, I meant the size relative to the screen (obviously their absolute dimensions can be anything you want).


Re scoring (wall of text coming up - skip to the summary if you're too lazy to read):
I had an idea that instead of basing your score for a level on a single playthrough (and therefore having to weigh up lemmings vs skills vs time, which proved to be near impossible), you could have separate records for lemmings saved, skills remaining, and time remaining, and combine these to give you a score for the level. This would make things simpler for the player (since they don't have to work out what's more valuable on each level), and encourage them to play the levels again and look for different solutions. The "lemmings > skills > time" system makes speedrun-type solutions practically worthless, and I think such solutions should be encouraged even if they save fewer lemmings or use more skills.

Something else that I disagree with, which you just mentioned and which was discussed at length in the linked thread, is the idea of a "max %" score on each level, on which part of the score is based. We still can't be 100% sure what the max % scores are for the original levels - it's possible that someone could find a new bug in the game that lets you save an extra lemming in one level, or something similar. Now, a new game built from scratch is gonna have its own list of bugs and exploits, some of which won't be picked up before release, and so when someone later discovers a new trick, your so-called "max" won't be a max any more. Instead, I suggest we start with the minimum requirement and give bonus points for lemmings saved beyond that.

But wait, won't this inflate the scores for the Fun and Tricky levels where you could sometimes save 50 or 60 more than needed? Not necessarily - you could scale the bonus points based on the difficulty rating of the level. An extra lemming saved in Mayhem is worth much, much more than an extra saved in Fun, and the score should reflect this.

What about the ridiculous amounts of surplus skills and time that some levels had? *cough* Tricky 4 *cough* Well, since we'll be making the levels, we can avoid this problem altogether - I'd suggest that any such levels that we make should go into the easiest rating. If we were to create a system for the original game where you get bonus points for skills and time, we'd have little choice but to make these bonuses zero for Fun and Tricky - anything else would be ludicrous. What we end up with here will depend on how far overboard you want to go with skill/time availability on the easier levels.

In addition to all this, there could be a bonus "challenge" on each level, in the same vein as the ones in the challenge threads on this forum (as well as the old one - you can find a link to that at the start of my challenge thread (see sig) if you're interested). These would require solutions that wouldn't set a %/skills/time record, but are difficult nonetheless, eg. "builders only" or "no builders".


SUMMARY
So, my proposed system would work something like this. I won't put numerical values on it now because we don't have any levels to base it on yet (though I'll have a go at scoring the original levels if you like :undecided:).

- All components of the score for each level would scale with the difficulty rating, with separate scales for each component (you could easily draw up a table for this).

- The majority of your score would be based on passing levels and progressing through the game.

- For each level you have three records (lemmings, skills, time), and you break these records individually - NOT all in one playthrough with one solution.

- Over the whole game, these three categories have a roughly equal amount of bonus points available (or perhaps more for lemmings saved).

- Each level has a challenge (maybe the challenge goals could be revealed after a difficulty rating is cleared) which gives you extra points.

- Instead of using division and other more complicated mathematical functions to calculate the score (these plagued the other thread, and also crept into your post), you end up with a formula based purely on addition and multiplication, so you can display a nice little animation on the level completion screen that shows the score calculation, and the player can follow this easily.

- You get a large bonus (perhaps half of the total of the "level completion" bonuses) for completing a difficulty rating. Keep in mind that you could use Revolution-style level unlocking, and (for example) unlock some Mayhem levels before you complete (or even fully unlock) the Taxing ones.


With all this considered, you should be able to compare players based on:
- their records within a level
- their overall score for each level
- their total score for each rating, and
- their total score for the whole game.

So, to get the highest score, you have to be a well-rounded player, and an expert at ALL parts of the game.

Please tell me if you disagree with any of this, or if you have any ideas on how to improve it.

[GuyPerfect]

I had an idea that instead of basing your score for a level on a single playthrough (and therefore having to weigh up lemmings vs skills vs time, which proved to be near impossible), you could have separate records for lemmings saved, skills remaining, and time remaining, and combine these to give you a score for the level.

Reconsidering things, I agree that each record should be seperate, though I'm still against trying to combine all three values into a single score.

Something else that I disagree with, which you just mentioned and which was discussed at length in the linked thread, is the idea of a "max %" score on each level, on which part of the score is based. We still can't be 100% sure what the max % scores are for the original levels - it's possible that someone could find a new bug in the game that lets you save an extra lemming in one level, or something similar. Now, a new game built from scratch is gonna have its own list of bugs and exploits, some of which won't be picked up before release, and so when someone later discovers a new trick, your so-called "max" won't be a max any more.

The response here is that if you manage to save more than the determined maximum number of Lemmings, the game will prompt you to submit your solution to the devs to see if the level meta data needs to be adjusted or if the game program needs to have a bug fixed. We can do this in the world of internet distribution.

Also, just so you are aware, I'm one of those guys who knows so much about what my programs do that if I declare something "bug-free," it will most likely be bug-free. Many people before you have interperated this sentiment as arrogance, but you have my fullest assurance that I won't release any software if I suspect there's any potential for a bug in it. Exploits, on the other hand, need to be addressed on a case-for-case basis.

In addition to all this, there could be a bonus "challenge" on each level, in the same vein as the ones in the challenge threads on this forum (as well as the old one - you can find a link to that at the start of my challenge thread (see sig) if you're interested). These would require solutions that wouldn't set a %/skills/time record, but are difficult nonetheless, eg. "builders only" or "no builders".

Just one bonus challenge per level? )-:

- Instead of using division and other more complicated mathematical functions to calculate the score (these plagued the other thread, and also crept into your post), you end up with a formula based purely on addition and multiplication, so you can display a nice little animation on the level completion screen that shows the score calculation, and the player can follow this easily.

Nothing wrong with division; it was in fact put into my post intentionally. I was transferring 100% to a Max% formula, and "percent" explicitly defines a process that involves division.

Though looking back on it, I figure that if I want to go for Max% based on player solutions, it'd only be fair to get a maximum Skills score and a maximum Time remaining as well, which certainly are pushing it overboard a bit. I'll reconsider scoring to enumerate Lemmings directly instead of transforming the number saved into some other value.

[Clam]

Reconsidering things, I agree that each record should be seperate, though I'm still against trying to combine all three values into a single score.

Why? I think there is a worthy challenge in speedrunning and economy of skills, even if it saves fewer lemmings than can be achieved normally (provided that it meets the minimum requirement of course ). What I am going for here is a single (large) number that reflects the player's overall level of skill and commitment to the game.

The response here is that if you manage to save more than the determined maximum number of Lemmings, the game will prompt you to submit your solution to the devs to see if the level meta data needs to be adjusted or if the game program needs to have a bug fixed. We can do this in the world of internet distribution.

You could do the same if the game finds that your solution ranks outright 1st.

Just one bonus challenge per level? )-:

OK, that was a little short-sighted. There's plenty of room for flexibility here. Some levels might be no good for challenges (eg. All or Nothing), while some might have two, three or even more challenge-worthy goals. Of course we can release more later if we find them.

Nothing wrong with division; it was in fact put into my post intentionally. I was transferring 100% to a Max% formula, and "percent" explicitly defines a process that involves division.

Oops, I managed to miss that somehow. Though I'm in favor of ditching the percentage system altogether since it can get complicated depending on the lemming count.

[Dullstar]

Achievement Ideas:

SINGLE PLAYER
(Name ideas included, not needed to be included).

Backroutes Galore! - Beat at least ten levels by rescuing more lemmings than possible with the intended solution.

"F" Student - Fail thirty times WITHOUT NUKING THE LEVEL.

"A" Student - Get 100% on thirty levels.

"C" Student - Get exactly the required percentage of lemmings thirty times.

Only Sacrifices When Needed - Save as many (or possibly more with a backroute) lemmings as possible with the intended solution thirty times.

Solution Generator - Beat the same level three different ways.

Ouch, That's Gotta Hurt - Lose thirty times purely because of traps.

No Traps Allowed - Get past fifteen different levels with traps without losing any lemmings to them.

[GuyPerfect]

Now comes the part where I have to make a decision.

The short version of the story consists of my life being uprooted and dropped down on the other side of the continent with only a minor semblance of what it used to be like. Following some rather pricy auto repairs, nomadic lifestyle and a day when I had all of 8 dollars to my name, I've got a well-paying job and a place to pay for with it. While I will still persue whatever personal endeavors, the fact now stands that I'm in a position to start work on one of the more major-style projects I've been wanting to work on. Lemmings comes to mind, of course, but it's not quite that simple of a choice.

See, back around the time I started this thread, I started a similar one on a Metroid community site in regards to a fangame based on that property. The gist of it is that the game would be a brainless online shooter with 2D side-scrolling gameplay and Prime-style 3D graphics featuring many weapons and elements from various Metriod games. Perhaps it can best be summed up as a cross between Metroid Prime Hunters and Soldat, provided you've heard of either.

The unfortunate part of this decision is that I'll only pick one project to work on; leaving the community surrounding the other project in disappointment. The reason I bring it up at all is because I'd like some input on which project you guys think I should work on. While you're likely more interested in the Lemmings project, I never know without asking: so here I ask!

I'm still weighing the pros and cons of each project, but do be aware that I've currently got a slight tilt towards the Metroid project at this time.

[Dullstar]

What?!  They'd both be awesome.  Maybe you could consider making one of them and have someone else do the other.  There's got to be someone who would do it.

You're right.  Tough choice.

[Clam]

:huh2:

So now you show your true colors... you're a cruel person indeed. I HATE shooter games :angry:. Interesting to see the different responses from each community so far though - and I'll be watching the Metroid thread (yes, I found it) with interest.

Obviously, I'd prefer it if you put your experience into a new Lemmings game rather than a shoot 'em up. As you can see, though, there's another major project that could be starting here soon - and looking over these threads again, the two proposals are remarkably similar. It's not even clear if the two are intended to be separate or not. And if they are indeed distinct, then we could end up with two competing lemmings spinoffs - which I doubt would be the best thing for this community. Can someone please explain to me exactly what is going on?

I should mention that I've never been involved in a big online project like this before, so I have no idea what's involved. Chances are, however, that I will contribute in some way (most likely with levels) to whatever Lemmings projects go ahead - around my chaotic study schedule, of course . It's against my nature to commit to anything - I like to just go with the flow.

[Dullstar]

Where's the Metroid thread, anyways?
I'd like to get the details for both so I can decide which is better.

[Clam]

Metroid project thread

I gotta say, his OP there was a bit funnier than the one we got. This line in particular made me :

At this point, I will refrain from mentioning Game Maker in any way. This is my service to society for this year.

[GuyPerfect]

So now you show your true colors...

Green and blue! Honest! My internet career even started on those colors!.. well, a combination thereof, which I called "blue-greenish."

Can someone please explain to me exactly what is going on?

Two people decided it'd be fun to make a new Lemmings game and posted about it.

---

For what it's worth, I'd much rather make a game for this community than Metroid--which is either filled with hardcore sequence breakers or pixel-art-inspired teenagers with no appreciation for the actual work involved in making games--but I quite simply think that a Metroid project would be more fun to make for me and I'd get to employ a larger number of technical curiosities I've had rolling around in my head for literally years. It's a real shame this site isn't Metroid Community and the other one Lemmings Headquarters. (-:

In any case, I'll let you guys (and not the Metroid guys just yet) know that I'm considering doing a sort of rotating development experiment where I would be working on both games. Spend a week or so on one, the other for the next week, etc. The only thing keeping me from doing that at this point is the fact that I can't exactly draw, and I'm not sure I want to outsource the Lemmings animations to someone else.

[GuyPerfect]

Where's the Metroid thread, anyways?

I'm not exactly sure how Clam Spammer got the link he gave, but clicking the "full version" link inside there will give you the full forum mockup with avatars and such.

[Clam]

Where's the Metroid thread, anyways?

I'm not exactly sure how Clam Spammer got the link he gave, but clicking the "full version" link inside there will give you the full forum mockup with avatars and such.

Google'd it, of course. Didn't notice the "full version" link, but having seen that I think I prefer the "lite" version. Anyway, it looks to me like we've got two projects that will both amount to "Lemmings with multiplayer", when we might be better off putting our combined efforts into one. Perhaps I shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly, but I think we (you and Eric in particular) need to discuss this further before we make any major decisions.

[GuyPerfect]

Perhaps I shouldn't jump to conclusions so quickly, but I think we (you and Eric in particular) need to discuss this further before we make any major decisions.

Both this thread and the Metroid one were started with the intent that I would personally be working on a project and that I would personally be the primary audience. People have interprated this as selfishness in the past, and I can understand that. I brought up the ideas at applicable communities because I wanted feedback and always appreciate suggestions, but at the end of the day it's still Guy Perfect doing what Guy Perfect wants to do rather than what the community decides would be best.

Having said that, should a community Lemmings project be undertaken, I'd love to participate.

[Dullstar]

Well, there's something a bit close on the Lemmings Community, so...

Er...  I could do your Metroid one, but the lemmings?  No...  don't...  have...  the...  experience.  I know a lot of what I'd need to make a Metroid fan-game (but don't expect me to draw the graphics!).

Though I'd kind of lean towards the Metroid, too, since...

[Dullstar]

Oh, by the way...  I will be doing my video game section over again on my website, so...  There's already a lemmings board, and I'm going to add a Metroid board soon.

Here's the link.

[Clam]

Both this thread and the Metroid one were started with the intent that I would personally be working on a project and that I would personally be the primary audience. People have interprated this as selfishness in the past, and I can understand that.

Right, I get it. Well, I'll just have to wait and see what happens. I doubt I'll be able to do much to help on either project (besides providing ideas and arguing about stuff) until a functional level editor is made. That's quite a way off yet

[GuyPerfect]

Just thought I'd stop in and mention that I've made my decision, and that I've unsurprisingly decided to go the Metroid route. Part of this is due to interactions at Metroid Headquarters regarding the departure of Miles07, who is on a two-year missions trip, and the fact that the community hasn't had any focus lately and needs something to pull their collective interest together. The other part is like Clam Spammer mentioned: we don't need two competing Lemmings projects; and to be quite honest, my idea of fun is not sitting down for years on end drawing up thousands of animation cels before being able to use them in programming. Lemmings is still a dream that I'd like to realize someday, but right now I simply don't have the resources and/or patience for it.

My server finally has a good router between it and the internet once again, so I'll be posting a blog every step along the way during development of the Metroid game. This decision was made during interactions with the aforementioned Miles07, who wanted to tell the world what's involved in making a game, since most people only focus on their own custom pixelated versions of Samus. But now that he's logged out for two years, he can't continue his work and I agreed to show the world what I'll be doing behind the scenes to commemorate his efforts.

The blog, called The Perfect Kiosk, is already set up at http://www.perfectkiosk.net/. Do keep in mind that the "www." is required. If you leave it off, my server will make fun of you.

In other news, I'm still a Lemmings fanatic, so I'm not going anywhere! I'll gladly participate in others' projects, just not in the capacity of lead programmer. I can offer lotsa programming tips and tricks, but obviously my main focus will be on another project.

[Dullstar]

Just release it to the public, okayz?  And remember, there's even some of us on Lemmings Community who like Metroid a bit better.  I'd like to see it!

Let's keep the ideas flowing on this thread just in case anyone might adopt this project.

[Clam]

Whoa, that was quick. Can't say I'm surprised though. The guys over there look like they're ready to move onto something new, and are grateful for the opportunity. The lack of input from some of the veterans here (a group which I don't yet consider myself to be among) is quite telling. Or maybe everyone's been too busy to post for the last month - that can't possibly be the case, can it :huh:

Well, I guess this means when you do come back to Lemmings, you'll be even better at this game design stuff. We'll be better off in the long run . When the Multiplayer Lemmings project gets underway, I'm sure any advice you have will be most welcome.

Good luck

[Dullstar]

You guessed the evil plan!

[Mindless]

The lack of input from some of the veterans here (a group which I don't yet consider myself to be among) is quite telling. Or maybe everyone's been too busy to post for the last month - that can't possibly be the case, can it :huh:

I think the veterans have all become lurkers or have lost interest as the community hopped from server to server.

[Clam]

Is this our cue to start another one of those "Wow, this forum is kinda dead" threads? The numbers say it all - page views are down 80%. And this place was booming not so long ago... forum downtime is costly indeed.

At least there is still one lemmings project in the pipeline... last I heard, anyways.

[Dullstar]

Some people just don't check their email, do they...

[Dullstar]

Sorry to double post, but I was just thinking about my idea for a fangame project, and...
uh, shouldn't this go in the Level development board?  I'll check to see what most others are doing...

[The Doctor]

Ah well, general agreement with past post by Clam Spammer, the community seems to be elsewhere. The constant forum changes are of course to blame, but can not be helped. Shuff happens, we just gotta fuffen' deal with it. :-)

A brand new Lemmings game with all the gameplay of every Lemmings game ever made in history, clones inclusive, would be fun. At the moment, however, it occurs to me that ... well ... quite a few of the level pack submissions on the LFA are either MUCH too hard or poorly designed. So until such a time as we have that legendary amalgam of Lemmings 2, Lemmings 3, Pingus, and Super Mario Bros, I appeal to everyone to work on a side project to improve their design skills.

Create levels that would suit Fun/Tame difficulty, then add decorations, and make sure they make sense. So far the worst levels I've seen have lava floating in mid air, random giant crystals in strange places for no reason at all, the tops of the exits miles away from the actual exit area, and flags in bizarre locations.

If any of you know what level packs I'm referring to, you'll know exactly what I mean.

It occurs to me, and this goes equally well in importance with Dullstar, that globally our level designing skills could be improved. They're either Mayhem/Havoc difficulty, or look like something a Lemming upchucked.

Don't take offence to this if you think you're a level making pro, you probably are, and are not who I'm referring to. Keep up the good work.

[Clam]

it occurs to me that ... well ... quite a few of the level pack submissions on the LFA are either MUCH too hard or poorly designed.

My levels (and those of a few other designers) are tailored to an audience that knows the game inside and out. Anything less than insane difficulty just doesn't present a challenge to some people

I appeal to everyone to work on a side project to improve their design skills.

Waaaaay ahead of ya. I must admit, making a Lemmings Chronicles tribe opened my eyes to the value of aesthetic design. For some reason, Chronicles designs look awful if you don't put in some effort to make them look decent - much more so than original Lemmings levels. If you don't fill the space available, it just looks wrong. Must be the blue background... it stands out much more than black

Don't take offence to this if you think you're a level making pro, you probably are, and are not who I'm referring to.

I don't know who else you might be referring to - the people who made most of those "floating lava" levels disappeared a long time ago. Heck, some didn't join the forum at all... (If you're out there, *please* come back and read this)


And by the way - despite what some of this post may suggest, I agree with you.

[Dullstar]

That would be great for my fangame.  We could always use some help with the insane levels.

[The Doctor]

Hehe, DullStar. I hope that project comes to fruition. Haven't seen a complete pack in a long while.

ClamSpammer, I agree, your levels are tailored to an audience who wouldn't even find Lemmings 2 hard. But of course, in a brand new game, there'd have to be some sort of learner levels. Sure they can be boring but they need to exist. By the way, I love your levels, and I even did PSP versions of 'em so I could play 'em on the road. Kinda defeated the purpose, since I mapped them myself, but who cares. Lol.

[Clam]

:shocked: Wow... I'm glad someone appreciates my work. Thank you


About "Fun" levels - most of these in the original game were just copies of harder levels, but with more skills (usually 20 of each) and time. Tutorial levels for the skills (and possibly other game elements too) would certainly be a good thing, but beyond that, I don't see a need for any more than 10 or so Fun/Tame levels. Yes, they need to be there, but maybe we don't need quite as many as the original games had. Especially if we implement "revolution-style" unlocking, we want to start ramping up the difficulty before too long.

[The Doctor]

Except that if the game was really good, we wouldn't have to just restrict it to our community.

[Dullstar]

Hehe, DullStar. I hope that project comes to fruition. Haven't seen a complete pack in a long while.

It's a highly volunteer project (publicly submitted levels, modifications to the game interface to make it the same game with more features), so it's more likely to follow through than this or the Multiplayer Online Lemmings Project or whatever it was.

By the way, this may require opinions for deciding what levels to include and what to exclude.  Also, I recommend, since we plan on changing some aspects of the game, we could make it so the tutorial levels are a separated from the main levels in their own section.  I HATE tutorial levels.  And as for example of opinions on levels, there's one that I will only let out if people really want it.  It's called Chaos:  Gravity's Reign, and it was meant to be hard.  However, it came out too hard, I think, because the timing was extreme (you had to know the keyboard shortcuts for picking skills or you'd lose lemmings).  It probably won't be included in the final game for obvious reasons (for anyone who plays it, at least).

[Clam]

It's a highly volunteer project (publicly submitted levels, modifications to the game interface to make it the same game with more features), so it's more likely to follow through than this or the Multiplayer Online Lemmings Project or whatever it was.

We still don't know if that's going ahead or not. Eric hasn't signed in since we last posted in that thread.

By the way, this may require opinions for deciding what levels to include and what to exclude.  Also, I recommend, since we plan on changing some aspects of the game, we could make it so the tutorial levels are a separated from the main levels in their own section.  I HATE tutorial levels.

I dunno... If we don't make players do the tutorials, they might skip them get stuck because they missed something important. If we do make them do the tutorials, they might get bored before they open up the "real" levels. The first few levels in the original Lemmings game weren't really thorough tutorials - they were just easy levels that focused on one or two skills at a time. Maybe we could do something similar, or have a system where each level builds on the previous ones. For example, you could have a builder level and a basher level available at the start, and when you complete one, you unlock a level that uses both (as per the Revolution system).

Following on from this, we could arrange the levels on the level select screen (there's a screenshot of this a few pages back) so that they are grouped together according to the types of skills you need to use to complete the level - you could have climber and floater levels at the top, builder levels in the middle, and digger levels at the bottom. Do you like this idea, or would you prefer that the order was random in this regard? (Of course the difficulty would increase from left to right.)

[Dullstar]

It's a highly volunteer project (publicly submitted levels, modifications to the game interface to make it the same game with more features), so it's more likely to follow through than this or the Multiplayer Online Lemmings Project or whatever it was.

We still don't know if that's going ahead or not. Eric hasn't signed in since we last posted in that thread.

By the way, this may require opinions for deciding what levels to include and what to exclude.  Also, I recommend, since we plan on changing some aspects of the game, we could make it so the tutorial levels are a separated from the main levels in their own section.  I HATE tutorial levels.

I dunno... If we don't make players do the tutorials, they might skip them get stuck because they missed something important. If we do make them do the tutorials, they might get bored before they open up the "real" levels. The first few levels in the original Lemmings game weren't really thorough tutorials - they were just easy levels that focused on one or two skills at a time. Maybe we could do something similar, or have a system where each level builds on the previous ones. For example, you could have a builder level and a basher level available at the start, and when you complete one, you unlock a level that uses both (as per the Revolution system).

Following on from this, we could arrange the levels on the level select screen (there's a screenshot of this a few pages back) so that they are grouped together according to the types of skills you need to use to complete the level - you could have climber and floater levels at the top, builder levels in the middle, and digger levels at the bottom. Do you like this idea, or would you prefer that the order was random in this regard? (Of course the difficulty would increase from left to right.)

Contact Eric, or find someone else.
We could include a readme that says that if you don't understand something, they can play the tutorial levels.  Your idea, however is good.

[Clam]

If people won't play the tutorials, they're not likely to look at the readme either

[Dullstar]

Good point...
Let's move this discussion to the actual thread for it, though...