EXTREME DIFFICULT LEVELS! Which Is good or Bad Extreme difficult level?

[MASTER-88]

I am really interested try completed and also make EXTREME Levels myself, but only few times i am create real Extreme levels myself i think my best Extreme levels are Levels Oh yeah More Lemmings Step 5 Levels 9, 15, 16, 18 & 19. Contains 4 main elements
1: Genius plan
2: Sharp timings
3: Very hard figured out
4: Backroute free (Have to say i miss levels 9, 15 & 18 because those backroute cannot perfect patched, but those not was bad one.. I got really succesfully 16 & 19. 19 Decimation is my Lemmings gem. Plan this level take me several years and i failed it over and over.

When played Crane pack. I´ll say Chaos levels 13 Cliffside Hostel Chaos level 26 Are you Kidding me & Chaos level 28 Denial are real EXTREME Levels. All those levels required sharp timings, super genius plan and yeah those are pretty backroute free. Though i did solved Denial & Cliffside Hostel my own ways. But heck those levels take me long. Just weeks, months and hours. Im not still never figured out that Are you Kidding me myself. Only level i´ll just give up when attempt it 7 months.

I am liked play Nota_Steve pack. Any those levels not are close even Extreme difficult, but some those are super cunning ones and its sometimes ashamed me when im not figured out that simple thing and overlook everythings else. Nota_Steve pack is awesome, but its not EXTREME. Its maybe ranked Hard. Still few hardest levels are take me 6 hours. Potholing, pendulums and No Justice. All those levels will ranked difficult hard, but sure not very hard or Extreme

How long solved Extreme level might take? Usually months and maybe you will give up.

Which is good Extreme level which keep you trying and interesting? Even you cannot solved it, but you will still keep attempts and enjoy it?

My personal turn off are very long levels where is very limited skills. Short levels keep me always trying, no matter how hard it is executed.

[IchoTolot]

I did a topic in the past where I tried to outline what makes levels difficult.

Of course difficulty can also be highly subjective and a level that's a major roadblock for one can be quckly solved by another person.

But the main things I want to point out are the following (at least for puzzle-centric content):

A) The usage of unusual skill combinations - or rather tricks.
B) The amount of possible actions that you can make to progress inside the level in a meaingful way. Or as I called it back then: Entropy.

These are usually the things that make a puzzle centric level hard.
If you need to discover a new trick, or have so many possible ways to proceed then things get difficult.

You mentioned: "2: Sharp timings"

I would argue that this something you want to avoid as much as you can in puzzle-centric content. This contributes more to execution-centric content.
Of course you cannot always avoid it and having everything to fall into place at the perfect time can be very satisfying, but this is very difficult to achive without it just getting plain frustraiting to play.
Most likely you just end up with annoying stff like:

- The time limit is barely enough to complete the level (even when using the intended method!) and you need to readjust a few skills / turn up the RR earlier to get these exttra seconds, so you nearly need to make a TAS.
- Tight timings depending on multiple lemmings and you need a long time to get them right even though you clearly see what needs to be done here.

Just very rarely are these implemented in such a way that they feel good without testing patience.
They also get worse the longer the level goes!

The main goal is still to make even the hardest level somewhat fun!

Of course you cannot prevent these completely at some point.

I try to reduce these instances in my levels and when I need them I try to give the extra seconds that won't open backroutes, try to make timings forgiving or ensure things fall into place automatically when the correct way is found.
Still sometimes they cannot be completely avoided.

[MASTER-88]

Have to say when i am played Fiat Lem! This pack is HARD. It is very hard. I am sure i cannot completed it in this year. So its sure goes next year when all is done. Avarge solution take me 45 minutes to solved and harder ones several hours.

Fiat Lem is simple because most levels use just orginal lemmings skills, but those are really vicious. When you think, okay thats done, you will see you forget somethings and have to back to fix it. You have to make many approach and failed level many times. Also have make some testing lemmings editor add skills and look everythings how actual board work. Make bunch new approachs. Save all approach and test those over again. Improve things etc.... Its perfect pack but definitely not noob friendly.

I´ll feel Step 2 Proficio same feel when i work Crane pack Chaos mode.

Unlike most Extreme pack. Fiat Lem is hard even Step 1 and Step 2 is really hard. Crane pack levels started goes really hard end of cunning mode. Challenge mode goes some really easy levels and some really hard ones. Chaos mode is insane here.

BTW
Most noob friendly pack might are Nota_Lem Pack, its contains perfect training difficults, but its goes very tricky at end, some solutions take me quite long to beat. But its not contains much sharp timing things and tricky experience. Its might one best pack if you started play custom lemmings levels to first time. I´ll really liked those levels.

Fiat Lem is just PRO lemmings players pack. I think few my own packs too, especially oh yeah more lemmings which is extremely vicious solutions and sometimes very sharp too.

Fiat Lemmings contains much levels i´ll determine difficult very hard/extreme range. Highly recommend play those levels if you like really high lemmings challenges. Heck i liked this pack, even i am sometimes feel real frustrations here.

Let continue it. I´ll have fun times.   

[Crane]

Glad my pack left an impression on you!  I did what I could to try to make a smooth difficulty curve, complete with easy levels to warm you into the groove, with Cute starting around Fun/Tricky and ending at about mid-Taxing, then Curious goes into Mayhem difficulty, then Cunning starts to really up the difficulty with some unique combinations etc.  Challenge is similar to "Present" in the MegaDrive version of Lemmings in that the difficulty isn't consistent, but it tries to be a self-contained difficulty curve, starting easy and ending very difficult.  And Chaos... well, it warns you with the skull-and-crossbones icon and the warning message after you complete Challenge.  Almost every level requires some true outside-the-box thinking and clever tricks.  I like to think that Chaos 26 and Chaos 28 really inspired a few people.

I admit I do like time limits, but I try not to make them unfair, and I do try to patch backroutes that could be mistaken for the intended solution if they have very sharp timings, since I want to reduce the frustration factor where possible.

[MASTER-88]

Glad my pack left an impression on you!  I did what I could to try to make a smooth difficulty curve, complete with easy levels to warm you into the groove, with Cute starting around Fun/Tricky and ending at about mid-Taxing, then Curious goes into Mayhem difficulty, then Cunning starts to really up the difficulty with some unique combinations etc.  Challenge is similar to "Present" in the MegaDrive version of Lemmings in that the difficulty isn't consistent, but it tries to be a self-contained difficulty curve, starting easy and ending very difficult.  And Chaos... well, it warns you with the skull-and-crossbones icon and the warning message after you complete Challenge.  Almost every level requires some true outside-the-box thinking and clever tricks.  I like to think that Chaos 26 and Chaos 28 really inspired a few people.

I admit I do like time limits, but I try not to make them unfair, and I do try to patch backroutes that could be mistaken for the intended solution if they have very sharp timings, since I want to reduce the frustration factor where possible.

You are inspirated me a lot. And i really liked are your test player. Have to say, im not are completed all your intention solutions. I simply cannot figured out your intention solution for example Sunsoft Swindle. Though i figured many backroutes with this level when i test played it , but not that intention solution. Its still mystery.

You also inspirate me make another amiga pack. Your classic mode keep me always interesting. I did my own 50 levels amiga classic pack 2. This pack is actually not are very tough, but few last are quite EXTREME levels IMO.

Only challenge mode level your pack i never are solved are level 29 Christmach rush. Im not simply figured out it. Its still remain your levels.

I´ll might back play your newest version your pack sometimes. I´ll really curious which is this Sunsoft Swindle? I test played this level many times, but that your final patch, i cannot solved.

[MASTER-88]

Okay Decimation My oh Yeah More lemmings was maybe very potential most harder lemmings levels ever created. Few other got good list.


I think my Retro level Climber Pandemonium is very good choice list most EXTREME Levels ever. If you are bored load packs. Here is single level. Just test it out if you think you are good. But please not complains about it. This level is sharp and cunning both. Requires all your focus and skill limit and its not are fun. You might rage quite many times here.

Climber Pandemonkium & Decimations are two maybe TOP Hardest lemmings levels i am maded myself. Decimation is best example. Only IchoTolot figured it out itself. Climber Pandemonium not are that bad ass, but its still very difficult.