[RetroLemmini] ROTL III: Lemmings Assemble - A new community collaboration pack!

[WillLem]

I had an idea today whilst playing through Revenge of the Lemmings and just wanted to make a note of it here.

A new community collaboration pack called Lemmings Assemble. That's as far as I've got with it. I'll add more later pending discusson with Eric on Discord.

[hrb264]

I'd love to get involved:)

[Mobiethian]

I would like to make some levels for this, too! Would be fun. I'm getting better at making more difficult levels. Count me in!

[kaywhyn]

Interesting idea. I'll consider contributing some levels, though I likely won't contribute much, especially as have my Lemmings Memories pack currently in-development

I had an idea today whilst playing through Revenge of the Lemmings and just wanted to make a note of it here.

Speaking of RotL, I'm currently sorting out and tidying up eric's SuperLemmini conversion of the pack. In particular, there were a lot of duplicate music tracks and hence were removed in order to reduce the file size of the music pack. Also, as I was going through the levels to make sure I had the correct music playing on them to match with RotL v2.0 for Very Old Formats NL, I found some incorrect level stats. Will probably post an updated version soon in the Lemmini Level Packs Archive topic

I would like to make some levels for this, too! Would be fun. I'm getting better at making more difficult levels. Count me in!

For RetroLemmini, not NL

[WillLem]

Speaking of RotL, I'm currently sorting out and tidying up eric's SuperLemmini conversion of the pack.

Ah OK, cool. Well, I've been thinking that maybe the RetroLemmini version of ROTL could be split into 3 packs. There are currently 270 levels across 10 ratings, which just seems excessive tbh. We could easily split this into 2 packs of 120 each (ROTL I and II, each with 4 ratings of 30 levels), and then have 30 levels left over to start Lemmings Assemble (which would essentially then be "ROTL III"). We'd then ave a ROTL trilogy, which seems a much better way to maintain these packs going forward.

If your intention is to maintain the SuperLemmini version only, then of course you don't need to do anything regarding the proposed RetroLemmini version. But, it might be good to have your involvement with this as well.

I'd love to get involved:)

Awesome! Well, feel free to keep creating levels and we'll definitely include some for sure.

I would like to make some levels for this, too! Would be fun. I'm getting better at making more difficult levels. Count me in!

For RetroLemmini, not NL

The more the merrier!

This goes for everyone: if you mainly create for NL but want to get involved with this project, that's fine. The SLX Editor can easily convert your levels to .rlv format for use in RetroLemmini, so you don't have to do anything differently than normal. Just create some levels in whatever Editor is best for you and we'll take it from there.

[Mobiethian]

For RetroLemmini, not NL

I want to learn it is what I had in mind.

[Proxima]

Ah OK, cool. Well, I've been thinking that maybe the RetroLemmini version of ROTL could be split into 3 packs. There are currently 270 levels across 10 ratings, which just seems excessive tbh. We could easily split this into 2 packs of 120 each (ROTL I and II, each with 4 ratings of 30 levels), and then have 30 levels left over to start Lemmings Assemble (which would essentially then be "ROTL III"). We'd then have a ROTL trilogy, which seems a much better way to maintain these packs going forward.

I don't want to dampen your enthusiasm (and I'm really looking forward to making some levels for this once it gets going), but there are a few things I want to say.

RotL is a great community achievement and a fun, high-quality pack in its current state, no doubt about that. But it has remained unfinished for over 12 years because the work involved in maintaining it has been more than any one person was able and willing to take on. (I'm guilty there as well, as I offered to work on a new NL version after mobius retired from the position. I still haven't even finished solving all the levels!)

So the first question is: are you offering to take over as pack maintainer for RotL in addition to putting together and maintaining the new pack? (There is, of course, no reason why these have to be the same person.)

If so, how do you see the role? Since you talk about splitting RotL into two packs as well as creating a new collaboration, do you intend to come up with the selection and ordering yourself or through community discussion? Should new versions be made for RetroLemmini, SuperLemmini and NL so that it's playable in the new selection/ordering on all engines, or is that not important? What will you do when level solutions are impacted by game mechanics differences between the engines?

I must point out that, while RotL started on Lemmini, it's now over 10 years since it migrated to NL and has been primarily a NL pack, with other versions not so much maintained as just existing for historical reasons. It sounds like you want to move it back to (now Retro)Lemmini primarily; is that the case? If so, can you explain why you believe that should be done?

I'm really glad the pack has had a resurgence of interest, and I think this is a great time for us to put our heads together and decide on the direction it should take going forwards. I know I don't have a good track record here, but I am still happy to help with producing the next version in any way I can.

[kaywhyn]

Ah OK, cool. Well, I've been thinking that maybe the RetroLemmini version of ROTL could be split into 3 packs. There are currently 270 levels across 10 ratings, which just seems excessive tbh. We could easily split this into 2 packs of 120 each (ROTL I and II, each with 4 ratings of 30 levels), and then have 30 levels left over to start Lemmings Assemble (which would essentially then be "ROTL III"). We'd then ave a ROTL trilogy, which seems a much better way to maintain these packs going forward.

Indeed, it really confuses me why there's an Extra rank in eric's SuperLemmini Revenge of the Lemmings. As this is simply a conversion of the Lemmini RotL pack, IMO the 6 main ranks are sufficient. I don't see the point of the Extra rank whatsoever and think that it can simply be removed. From a quick glance of the Extra rank, those seem to be levels from Revenge of the Lemmings v2.0, aka, the Very Old Formats NL version of the pack. I really don't see the point of mixing the Lemmini levels with the v1.43n-F NL RotL levels when the latter already exists as a separate RotL pack anyway There's about 76 levels in just that rank alone! Can definitely remove the fluff and bloat to reduce the pack file size, especially when combining it with the music pack.

Similarly, as eric's Revenge of the Lemmings Rearranged is a conversion of RotL v2.0, aka, the pack in this topic, the 19 levels that are in the first Extra rank of Revenge of the Lemmings Rearranged can simply go into the main ranks themselves. They are secret levels in the Very Old Formats NL version of the pack, but since SuperLemmini doesn't have them, I think they can just go into the main ranks. Yes, it will cause the ranks to have different amounts of levels instead of them all having 30 like it is currently, but I don't think that's a big deal, considering the v2.0 has differing amounts of levels in the ranks when including the secret levels in each of the ranks

The other two Extra ranks, once again, I don't see the point in them, as they're levels that are already in the Lemmini version of RotL. RotL v2.0 for Very Old Formats NL is a completely separate level pack from the RotL Lemmini version and hence I don't see the point of mixing in the Lemmini levels that aren't found in the former with it by putting them in both the second and third Extra ranks as eric has done. Sure, this time it's only about 40 or so extra levels, but if there's an opportunity to remove unnecessary files in them, that should be done.
 

If your intention is to maintain the SuperLemmini version only, then of course you don't need to do anything regarding the proposed RetroLemmini version. But, it might be good to have your involvement with this as well.

Yea, I'll certainly be more than happy to help you and eric out with anything that needs doing for the RetroLemmini version of RotL. I'm generally called for for my level solving skills, so I can certainly help out on that front to ensure all levels can be solved, especially the higher ranked ones, but anything else I'll try and assist in any way possible, if and whenever I'm able to.

I'm going to make it clear that I'm not and won't be maintaining eric's SuperLemmini conversions of RotL. I'll leave that up to him if he wants to do so. I'm simply assisting by tidying up and removing all the excess fluff and bloat files that don't need to be there in the pack download in order to reduce the pack size. As previously mentioned, a lot of the music tracks are duplicates. After removing the duplicates, the number of .ogg tracks has been reduced from 48 to just 12! The rest are .mod files which don't contribute as much to the file size as the .ogg music tracks. Not only that, the number of music tracks has been greatly reduced from well over 100 to just about 66 or so!

In any case, I think once I post an update for the SuperLemmini RotL packs, they can pretty much be considered done. Unless there are problems that are spotted and in need of fixing, of course.

I want to learn it is what I had in mind.

Keep in mind the pack is just an idea floating around for now and that it may or may not happen

[WillLem]

I want to learn it is what I had in mind.

Please do go ahead, it'll be great to have your involvement!

So the first question is: are you offering to take over as pack maintainer for RotL in addition to putting together and maintaining the new pack? (There is, of course, no reason why these have to be the same person.)

I suppose so, but if others want to get involved and help out that would be much appreciated. I already have more than enough going on lemmings-wise as it is. I'm very happy for someone else to take on the role of maintainer, and will likely ask for someone to volunteer if nobody does; my assumption of that role for now is just to get the project up and moving.

do you intend to come up with the selection and ordering yourself or through community discussion?

Community discussion probably, with time limits so that the initial sorting part of the project doesn't go on forever and cause people to lose interest. So, if a decision hasn't been made by an agreed date or if consensus can't be reached, it's pack maintainer's call.

I'd probably want to do it as quickly and simply as possible, and make the first two instalments (ROTL I and ROTL II) essentially set-and-forget packs that we agree are complete and don't mess with further. I'd be relying on others' input with this for sure!

Should new versions be made for RetroLemmini, SuperLemmini and NL so that it's playable in the new selection/ordering on all engines, or is that not important?

No, I don't think that's necessary; this can be seen as more or less its own project. It certainly won't be back-ported to SuperLemmini (not by me, anyway). Meanwhile, if NL users want the pack to be ported to NL, I personally see no reason not to, but it's not part of the initial plan and is a bridge to be crossed later (if at all).

What will you do when level solutions are impacted by game mechanics differences between the engines?

Either fix or replace the level, I imagine. As yet, I don't think there have been any level-breaking changes between original Lemmini and RetroLemmini. Replay-breaking changes, sure, but the levels themselves all hold up (AFAIK).

It sounds like you want to move it back to (now Retro)Lemmini primarily; is that the case? If so, can you explain why you believe that should be done?

Mainly because RetroLemmini is an experience closer to playing the original game than any of the other engines, and it seems like a more appropriate platform for OG-style levels. But also, because it would simply be good to have more custom content for RetroLemmini. I've worked hard on updating the engine, making it more user-friendly, and adapting the NL Editor for use with it, so a collab pack with community involvement would be the icing on the cake at this point.

I am still happy to help with producing the next version in any way I can.

Awesome! The more voices and involvement we have, the better

[ericderkovits]

As per Willem's request on discord.

Revenge of the lemmings rearranged was ordered like mobius's NL 3.0 version of the pack except for the extra2 and extra3 ranks. also I don't mind if you (Willlem) split the main ranks in half to make Revenge of the lemmings and Return of the Lemmings. the extra1 extra2 and extra3 rank levels can perhaps be put into the lemmings assemble one. also mobius had an outtakes pack with plenty of other unused levels with some good ones. Almost all of them use the OG styles. Those in the outtakes pack of course need to be converted to Retrolemmini. perthaps you (Willem) can choose the ones that are good.

 Willem can do what he wants with The Lemmings Rearranged pack to divide it into the 3 new packs: Revenge of the lemmings, Return of the lemmings and Lemmings Assemble.

[WillLem]

As per Willem's request on discord.

i.e. Eric sent this message to me as a PM but I thought it made sense to make it part of the general discussion.

Revenge of the lemmings rearranged was ordered like mobius's NL 3.0 version of the pack except for the extra2 and extra3 ranks ... the extra1 extra2 and extra3 rank levels can perhaps be put into the lemmings assemble one.

Exactly, this is the general idea. Any levels which aren't featured in the latest NL version could potentially form part of the new collab pack, particularly if they're levels by currently-active members.

also mobius had an outtakes pack with plenty of other unused levels with some good ones. Almost all of them use the OG styles ... perthaps you (Willem*) can choose the ones that are good.

Again, this is exactly the kind of thing we want: additional levels by currently-active members. @mobius, do you have these levels handy to post here to this topic (don't worry about format, we can convert if necessary)?

*We can decide as a group which levels should make the final cut, I think Eric is just making it clear here that his original message was addressed to me.

Willem can do what he wants with The Lemmings Rearranged pack to divide it into the 3 new packs: Revenge of the lemmings, Return of the lemmings and Lemmings Assemble.

Glad to have your approval with this, particularly since you have been looking after the SuperLemmini version. I should make it clear that I respect the history of ROTL as a community pack and won't do anything without approval from other Forum members who feel invested in the project's development up to this point.

If you do feel invested and (like Proxima) want to have a say in this, NOW is the time! There's no need to rush anything, of course, but there's also no need to wait months or years to make progress with it.


Next steps.

Perhaps the first thing to do is to draft the first two packs in the trilogy.

Pack I - Revenge of the Lemmings <--- this one
Pack II - Return of the Lemmings <--- and this one
Pack III - Lemmings Assemble

These should entirely comprise levels from the current SuperLemmini/NL versions of ROTL but split into 2 packs of 120 levels each. Others will likely have a better idea of general chronology of the levels than I do, and a better grasp of the pack's history, so input is needed here for sure. Ideally, the first pack would be the oldest levels, and the second pack the newest levels. Anything left over can be considered for inclusion in pack III.

We need an initial something to work from, so if nobody has posted anything by the end of next week (Friday 3rd April) I'll put together a frst draft (which will definitely need to be re-worked by someone with more knowledge of ROTL than me!)

In the meantime, I'll keep playing through the existing levels and try to solve as many as I possibly can!

[WillLem]

Quick thought: I see the sense in these packs being a Forum-wide thing, and being the same in NeoLemmix.

Development for the NeoLemmix version is already very far along, would anybody want to re-arrange the NL versions of the ROTL packs as suggested in this post (i.e. packs with 120 levels across 4 groups of 30)?

Maybe it's too early to be asking this. The thought has occurred to me though, particularly following Proxima's question regarding this.

[mobius]

I'd be down to contribute towards this, though likely not much. I'm getting a new job in about a week and I'm going to be extremely busy from then onward (most likely). But I already have a folder of levels, some finished, some not that could possibly work here.

I do have a week off presently that I will have some time to re-familiarize myself with ROTL and maybe offer some feedback and thoughts on ROTL in general. I do have some idea of the age of most of the levels.

my #1 recommendation would be: set a goal for WAY fewer levels than ROTL had/has. Trust me that was too much work Like around 100 or fewer levels would probably be best. I'd also recommend starting something totally new that has little or nothing to do with ROTL [other than being like a sequel as it seems you already may have in mind].
ROTL really started to continue/finish what was started prior to 2009; and consolidate really old levels that stood by themselves when everyone like Pieuw was making big packs and that was becoming popular. My addition of newer levels seems a bad idea in hindsight.

Honestly I wasn't even aware that Eric or anyone else made these other recent conversions. I don't have any opinions on those; that's up to them.

Which brings up another point: when dealing with ROTL you're dealing with levels by people who aren't here to answer "is this a backroute or not" etc. So that just adds another layer of difficulty. I know for a fact for instance; that the celebrated Duality that's in the current states of all versions of ROTL isn't "accurate" (though its still a very good level imo) because I managed to get a replay from him from geoo. (but only for his 6th pack!) Yawg hasn't been active here in years. So again; it would be far better and easier today to make a pack based on people that are here and can address questions and issues with there levels in real time.

Also it would be nice to utilize the new skills and features of modern games [which the old levels obviously don't have].


To add to what Proxima said: part of why I got frustrated with the project was that besides the end result being too large lots of people came in saying they wanted to contribute but in the end I did most of the work; because nobody else was really willing/able to do much (except a few people, namely Akseli who brought most of the levels to my attention in the first place), and there were generally only a few people coming forward with opinions that disagreed, so they ended up at an impasse. And I was kind of just left to make the decision. ROTL has plenty of flaws, but I'm overall happy with the result. But it wouldn't bother me at all if it was greatly altered. I had plans to do what (wafflem and I) we did for ISteve's and Clam's pack with other older levels; like Yawg's and Ben Bryant's, but I never got time to do all that. If someone ever did that it would make those levels in the big pack redundant (which is why in the latest version I removed ISteve and Clam's levels). WeirdyBeardy also made his own pack consolidating all of his levels a year or so ago didn't he? But that's just one suggestion. Anyways, like I already said; since there;s a lot of new people and ROTL has old levels that are now well known, I'd recommend starting something totally new and separate from that.

edit: I forgot that actually I already started to do this with Ben Bryant's levels but its not finished.