[?][SUG][PL] Use "saved/required" instead of "negative saved" or "saved" count.

[Guigui]

Sorry if this has already been suggested, I could not fin it.

As a third alternative to show the number of lemmings already saved compared to the required number, why not use a "saved/required" syntax in the skill panel ?

So for instance in Just Dig if you have already saved 3 lemmings, the panel would show "3/10".

The negative saved count in vanilla NL is nice, but still kind of weird to use a negative number. And the alternative offered in CE forces players to mouse over the saved count to see the required count. With "saved/required" you see all infos at once.

[WillLem]

As a third alternative to show the number of lemmings already saved compared to the required number, why not use a "saved/required" syntax in the skill panel ?

Simply: space is at a premium on the skill panel.

It has been suggested before, and I've explored the possibilities significantly.

Levels can have hundreds of lemmings, and even in levels with 99 or fewer lemmings, "nn/nn" takes up 5 characters on the panel. At present, the skill panel allows a total of 38 characters, and they are currently assigned as follows:

Chars 01 - 12: Lemming action. We need to be able to fit (at least) "PLATFORMER n" here, which is all 12 characters.
Chars 13 - 14: Replay icon, space.
Chars 15 - 20: Hatch icon, space, 3 chars for number of lems in hatch, space.
Chars 21 - 26: LemsOut icon, space, 3 chars for number of lemmings active in the level, space.
Chars 27 - 32: Exit icon, space, 3 chars for number of lemmings saved, space.
Chars 33 - 38: Time icon, space, 4 chars for time limit (n-nn).

Our options are these:

1) Truncate the skill actions to some amount of characters, and take what we need from the 'Lemming action' area. The athlete info only needs 7 characters, and it could be acceptable to display "PLATF n" instead of "PLATFORMER n", for instance. That would buy us 5 characters.

2) Remove the space between each icon and its corresponding values. That buys us 4 characters, and just about covers the cost of "nnn/nnn" (which would need to be supported even if we set the position of the digits dynamically).

3) Don't display 'lemmings active', or incorporate 'lemmings active' into 'lemmings in hatch', displaying "iii/nnn" where i is the number of lems in the hatch, and n is the number of lems active in the level. This could work, but there is also potential for confusion, especially since n can update without i updating (for example, if the RR is slow and a lem is lost). Nonetheless, removal of 'lemmings active' as a separate display buys us an extra 6 characters, which is significant.

4) Extend the width of the skill panel. This was done in SuperLemmix, bringing the total available skills up to 14 and adding a Rewind button (whilst also removing the half-buttons for framestepping, direction select, etc). It could buy us a significant number of characters, and we could add some more buttons (or increase the number of available skills). This would increase the minimum window width for NeoLemmix CE though, and would require a decent amount of community support to go ahead.

5) Make the skill panel hi-res only. This effectively doubles the number of available characters to a whopping 76, albeit in smaller font (see the display in RetroLemmini for how this might look). Plenty to display whatever we wish, but very difficult to get people to agree to.

I'm not totally against any of the above options, but nor do I think any of them are better than what we have now (i.e. a well-spaced panel that makes the best of what's available and does ultimately display all the most significant information).

If someone can come up with a better suggestion, or voice support for any the ideas presented here, displaying "saved/needed" is by no means off the table.

[Guigui]

Thanks for the explanations, and sorry for making you write them all over again !

Now that I played a little more and think about it, the "already saved" number is not that important while playing. The "remaining to be saved" is much more important. This is certainly why the negative saved count had been used in the first place.

In this sense, having the "already saved" displayed on screen may be nice, but not to the point of having to rework the whole skill panel. This is also why I was kinda disappointed by the new display offered where you only see this "already saved" and have to mouse over to see the "remaining to be saved" which is the true needed info.

Out of the possibilities you listed, I can only see 2) viable, but now I'm not even sure this would be worth implementing. Finally the negative count was not that bad, except that this negative number is still weird. Why not just putting the required number as a positive number next to the flag, and decrease it as player saves some.

Also a thing that disturbs my brain is that the "in hatch" number is displayed before the "total" number. The other way around would make more sense to me. So all in all, my little opinion would be to display like this :

Lem_icon (space) total number -- hatch_icon (space) remaining in hatch number -- flag_icon (space) positive remaining to be saved

This is almost the same as in vanilla NL, except total and in hatch are switched, and the required saved does not have the minus sign.

[WillLem]

Why not just putting the required number as a positive number next to the flag, and decrease it as player saves some.

What about once it reaches 0 and lems are still entering the hatch?

This is one of the problems with the negative saved display actually: once it reaches 0, the positive number thereafter becomes somewhat meaningless. If it reads "7", for example, what that actually means is "the save requirement + 7".

One thing that could make sense is this:

Display the positive "to be saved" number whilst the requirement has not been met. Count down as lems are saved.
Once 0 is reached, switch to displaying the total saved (change colour as well). Count up as lems are saved.

The negative display could do a similar thing, although it would actually be exactly the same but with a "-" symbol, so could probably just be retired altogether.

Also a thing that disturbs my brain is that the "in hatch" number is displayed before the "total" number. The other way around would make more sense to me.

Why?

Hatch count is the total lems to begin with, before any have spawned. If we read left to right, then, this number should absolutely be at the start of the display, should it not?

[Dominator_101]

What about once it reaches 0 and lems are still entering the hatch?

This is one of the problems with the negative saved display actually: once it reaches 0, the positive number thereafter becomes somewhat meaningless. If it reads "7", for example, what that actually means is "the save requirement + 7".

One option for this would be to display extra saves as '+X'. This could work with both negative and non negative req count really, but for the case of using a positive req counting down adding '+' in front after saving enough helps differentiate it. A plus in and of itself also kinda denotes 'extra' a lot of times, so it's indicating they're bonus as well. And it doesn't take up any more space than the minus already does.

[Guigui]

I do agree with Dominator_101 here : display required only with positive red number. Turn it blue or green once it reaches 0, then display "+"extra_saved before it if it goes over the requirement.

As for the order of the displays I dont really know how to explain. It would just make more sense to me to have a decreasing sequence at the beginning, like for instance :

Total=100  --  Still_in_hatch=80 -- To_be_saved=98

This may be just me, and is not important at all actually.

[Simon]

A reason behind putting {saved minus required} and {lems alive} next to each other: You compare these counts to see how many you can lose. {Lemmings in hatch} is unrelated, and should go to the side.

Don't use red for the completely normal state (level not yet won) that you see 95 % of the time.

The negative count has always been questionable UI; we did it because it saved space and because it uncluttered the panel. It makes sense in theory, too: It's a debt. saved/required was nicer, but it needed 4 numbers. History: Clam proposed in 2015 to show the save requirement during play.

It's conceivable to write {lemmings in hatch} onto the hatch instead of into the panel. Reason: When you need this number, you're looking near the hatch anyway. Unsure.

The NL panel comes from the archaic design of Lemmings 1's panel, which hid the save requirement. NL panel's main value is nostalgia.

-- Simon