[SLX] Timebombers

[Will]

I thought the main point of the fork was to play any level 100% classically

Yes, but there needs to be a way to implement the classic behaviour with a minimum of fuss. I believe that making all of the problematic situations impossible from a level creation point of view is the best way to go, all things considered.

and it can be quite frustrating if you don't know if you haven't figured out a solution or if it's impossible.

Well, that's the point - making those impossible situations impossible to create means that those levels couldn't exist on the engine in the first place. So, there will be 0% chance of a player becoming frustrated because an impossible situation has been presented in their chosen bomber mode; it simply couldn't happen. In the absence of a better idea for fixing everything, this seems to be the best the way forward for now.

the skill shadow will show where the lemming will be in 5 seconds in timed mode.

Having given this some thought, timed bombers shouldn't have a skill shadow at all. It completely defeats the purpose of them being timed and is against the spirit of the proposed "classic" mode, for which timed bombers would be a standout feature.

If you hold down a hotkey and click a lemming in the first 5 seconds of it's existence it will bomb it instantly in timed bomber mode

Again, I've pretty much decided this won't be the case. Not allowing untimed bombers in the first 5 seconds is a far cleaner solution to all of the associated problems. We don't need the hotkey, or my proposed "hot bomber" state (which is admittedly an even messier solution). Far better to keep things simple where possible.

EDIT: Besides, if it's later agreed that the modes should be switchable in-game, this feature can always be added retroactively.

If you clone a bomber, hold down a hotkey to make the clone a bomber

The more I think about it I'm generally against hotkeys being needed for any sort of skill assignment. I'd rather remove the cloner skill altogether than make this sort of mess. Whilst it was me who originally floated the idea, admittedly, I did so for the purposes of discussion; a number of problematic situations have been presented, each of which seem to require hotkeys, menu-diving or other UI headaches in order to crowbar the timed bomber feature back into an engine which has clearly outgrown it. For me, the purposes of this discussion was to try and find the "solution of least resistance".

Thankfully, a relatively simple idea has come up which eliminates this need for hotkeys and other UI mess (which goes against the spirit of "classic" lemmings gameplay anyway). For now, I'll be going ahead with that unless an even better idea is suggested in the meantime.

Try to think up some solution to make NeoLemmix and SuperLemmix 100% compatible with this issue
(Pictured)

Not implementing a mode-switching hotkey solves this problem.


Just to re-iterate, breaking existing NeoLemmix levels is not a problem for me if this project does go ahead. NeoLemmix, Lix and SuperLemmini(Too) all feature levels which can't possibly be played on the other engines, either for physics reasons or game feature differences. I'd be absolutely fine with SuperLemmix being its own thing and thus having levels which aren't cross-compatible. If nothing else, it paves the way for it to take even bolder steps in the future (that is, if it ever exists!).

Therefore, existing-level-preservation will categorically not be a concern for me personally whilst I'm working on this (and that goes for my own levels as well!). Just thought I better make that clear at this point


I also thought I better mention that, if this project doesn't attract much support and if the ideas being discussed prove to be too far beyond my capabilities, I'll have to abandon it anyway. Let's keep it real at this point - SuperLemmix is just an idea, and I currently have no idea how to do any of this!

Anyway, let's keep positive. I can certainly have a go at some of this and see how far I get. I've updated the OP with the ideas as they currently stand; the decisions aren't entirely final by any means, but provide a way forward.

[Will]

- Timed bombers will come back as a separate skill in their own right called the "Timebomber"; after consideration of all the different factors surrounding their re-introduction into the engine, this is the one which causes the least problems.
- In the case of a cloned Timebomber, the clone's countdown timer will start from the same point at which the original lem was cloned, as with all other cloned skills.
- Timebombers will not have a skill shadow, as this defeats the object of them existing (which is to bring a bit of execution-based play back into the game).

Where I'm up to with this:

Amiga timer graphic added, code tweaked to account for change in width from 4px to 6px.

I'm looking for the old timed bomber code in the NeoLemmix source, haven't found it yet. Will post again here when I have done.

Hmm. Can't seem to find it anywhere. I wonder if existing countdown code can be used to create a new state, "countdowner", which could then potentially be applied before any skill assignment.


I've decided that Timed bombers should be a separate skill, independent of Untimed bombers. After thinking of all the potential mess with cloner compatibility, replay cross-compatibility and "point of assignment into replay" stuff, it's just more headache than it's worth. Timed bombers being a separate skill is a much more exciting possibility since it means both types of bomber can be used in the same level, and also it solidifies that SuperLemmix is about bringing back some of the OG's execution difficulty.

[Will]

have you considered having both timed and untimed bombers as skills, and thus ending this rift?

Thanks for the suggestions! And yes, I'll be incorporating them both as separate skills. Seems the easiest solution overall

[Simon]

valiant attempt to cater to everyone.

Timed bombers should be a separate skill
cloner compatibility, replay cross-compatibility and "point of assignment into replay" stuff, it's just more headache than it's worth.

Timed bombers will not have a skill shadow

Then you're inflicting timed bombers on everybody whenever a level designer likes them. Doesn't sound like catering to everybody?

You could convert the timed bombers into untimed on the fly based on user option, and those converted bombers become ineligible assignment during first 5 seconds of lemming existence. Will probably run into design problems with the cloner. There seems to be no easy way out.

-- Simon

[Will]

You could convert the timed bombers into untimed on the fly based on user option

After a lot of consideration, I've decided that this is just simply too messy for me to try and handle as an inexperienced designer working mostly without direct help. I could try and mimic what Charles did with SuperLemmini, but there are a number of problems with having both types of Bomber available even in that engine, which is much simpler than NeoLemmix.

and those converted bombers become ineligible assignment during first 5 seconds of lemming existence

Yeah, again, I did consider this but decided it would just overcomplicate things unnecessarily. I'd rather keep things as simple as possible, especially since I'm very much at the start of my journey as a programmer.

Will probably run into design problems with the cloner. There seems to be no easy way out.

Yes, the Cloner is what swung my decision in the end. There is no clean way to get around the various issue that the Cloner presents.

For me, it comes down to either lose the Cloner or have both types of Bomber. I definitely prefer the latter.

So, they'll be implemented as a new skill called the Timebomber. It doesn't make sense to give them a shadow because this defeats the purpose. Yes, it allows level designers to force this skill type on the player, but I'm OK with that for these reasons:

1) For a while now, we've had many many "puzzle-oriented" levels, which get tiresome after a while. Timebombers are part of a number of features in this engine which will promote more execution-focused levels and gameplay, balancing things out a bit.

2) In theory, yes, the engine could get swamped with Timebomber levels and we'd have the opposite problem to the one presented by NeoLemmix. But, in practice, I think that it's more iiikely that there'll be a mixture of both types of level.

3) Lest we forget, it will be possible to have both types of Bomber in a single level. This could make for some interesting levels!

4) The DMA levels can be restored to their intended mode of play for all players.

...

I realise that this seems to constitute something of a contradiction, but I prefer to think of it as the other side of the same coin. It is, after all, the absence of Timed Bombers from NeoLemmix that prompted this fork in the first place.

The irony of all this is that I haven't done a single thing towards implementing them yet; I've so far been focusing more on all the other stuff on the list. I think that I need to get as much experience as I can before I attempt to implement what is effectively a new skill from scratch.

[mobius]

timed bombers could be interesting to come back, I'd appreciate keeping skill shadows (At least as an option) though, would still support it even without them.

Grenader, spearer and those skills are really exciting though

[Will]

timed bombers could be interesting to come back, I'd appreciate keeping skill shadows (At least as an option) though, would still support it even without them.

Glad to hear it, and thanks for the support!

The thing about Skill Shadows though, is that they would be completely pointless on a Timebomber; it would show exactly where it will detonate, thus making it effectively an Untimed Bomber with a delayed assignment. The whole point of Timebombers is to re-introduce some of the more execution-based gameplay, which Skill Shadows are very much the antithesis of.


I do see why Dullstar and Simon are right to at least suggest that I focus on making this engine more one thing and less the other, but ultimately I do want NeoLemmix players to be able to also get a good experience with SuperLemmix. Since all of these features exist, it makes no sense to strip them out altogether. The idea here is that they'll be reframed and more aggressively optionalised in order to promote the older style of play, not outright enforce it.

Most of my early years playing Lemmings were spent learning how to get those Builder and Bomber assignments just right purely by eyeballing, and it was as satisfying to pull off as it was to solve the puzzle. All I'm saying with SuperLemmix is, let's bring a bit of that back.

[Will]

Added a poll.

[Will]

Any more votes on this one?

Note that the question is really "do we want Timebombers as well as untimed Bombers?" (i.e. not "instead of.")

[Will]

OK, so it seem clear that this very much divides Lemmings players into those that want the Timebomber, and those that don't (and in both cases, no matter what!)

Seems to me then that the "please everybody" thing to do probably would be to implement it as a user-side option. However, this would mean a lot of potential UI headache and messy implementation for a feature which many might end up just ignoring and ultimately never using. If I'm going to put the work in to bring the skill back, I want it to be a prominent feature of SuperLemmix. Its implementation should be clean, clear and enjoyable for those that fully support the feature.

I'm therefore going to go ahead and make the Timebomber a separate skill, and let the chips fall where they may in terms of who chooses to make and play levels in SuperLemmix. Hopefully, some of those who chose "No!" will give Timebomber levels a try and enjoy them for what they are, whilst those who chose "Yes!" have re-gained a classic Lemmings feature, and lost nothing.

So - just to make it clear - Untimed Bombers will remain part of SuperLemmix, and will simply be called "Bombers". "Timebombers" will be the classic Bomber skill with the 5-second timer.

Now comes the hard part, actually coding the damn thing!

[Will]

And we have the Timebomber!



The panel icon isn't done yet; just using the OhNoer animation for now until I can figure out how to load an image into that part of the code. Other than that, it's fully tested and working! It can also interact with other skills as well (i.e. other skills are assignmable during countdown).

Finished the panel icon! As soon as I've finished making a few other tweaks here and there, I'll do a proper release with all 24 skills included.

[Will]

Tested with the Cloner this morning. Works a treat, and opens up new level possibilities: