Lemforum backroute fixes, Lix 0.10.x

[Proxima]

Edit Simon: I've renamed this topic
from Lemforum pack changes, 0.9.x
to Lemforum backroute fixes, 0.10.x.

See also: Lemforum outtakes/replacements, 0.10.x.

Proxima's first post here, and everything throughout 2018 to 2021 in the early parts of this topic, is for 0.9.x.


Daunting 29 "Duality": moved decorative terrain above exit to prevent a backroute.

[Simon]

Merge Flying Batteries: Will do for 0.9.1.

Merge old maps: Wow, thanks for the effort! I will add numbers of players. These maps already have overtime, the editor merely doesn't display it when number of players is 1. I'll leave the overtime values as they are. Will merge them into 0.9.1.


Multiplayer maps go into 0.9.1. I added player numbers and shortened some overtimes. I haven't built a Play Bridge 4p.

Duality will go into 0.9.1.

-- Simon

[Simon]

Everything before this post is in 0.9.1.


Path to Mahiman has a short route with precise jumping -- see attachment. Keep or redesign?

Re-sort Runaround? I feel it's the hardest in Quirky. Took Wafflem about 15 minutes even with chat help from who didn't play the level yet. Everything else in Quirky was faster and took almost no help.

-- Simon

[Forestidia86]

Path to Mahiman has a short route with precise jumping -- see attachment. Keep or redesign?

My observations concerning this are:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

It seems rather tricky to get to the idea to do this jump that way. In this context it seems trial and error to get to know from where to jump if you don't have utter knowledge of the physics.
But:
There are not that much possibilities from where to jump there and with framestepping they are all in your control. If you know how to do it it is actually not that hard to pull off.

A danger could be that someone tries this without framestepping and gets stuck retrying because the direct jump from the edge fails only by a bit.
The general trickiness is to realize that you have to do an indirect jump, so it's a more advanced and complex use of the bouncing physics (, which is not necessarily bad).
But to try such things you usually already have more advanced knowledge I think.

I can't assess to what decision that finally amounts since I don't have experience in such things.

Edit: Not to doublepost: I generally think that it's ok for a maze level to have a short hidden route next to (the) longer more visible one(s).

[Proxima]

Fix for "Path to Mahiman" attached.

Ordering change: Q38 The Runaround -> C10; Exit Stage Right -> C4; Rainbow Road -> Q38.

[Simon]

Proxima's Mahiman will go into 0.9.2, along with the proposed reordering for Runaround.

I can't assess to what decision that finally amounts since I don't have experience in such things.

There is a lot of taste and personal opinion with these alternate routes. Can keep them or can remove them.

In the end, Proxima decides because he's pack maintainer. Ideally, we propose concrete ideas to help with the decisions.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Fix for "Eye of the Needle". I've narrowed the "chimney" the climbers go up at the start to make it less precise, jumpers -> 0 and runners -> 1 to remove recent backroutes.

[Simon]

Please post a replay for Eye of the Needle. I'd like to release today.

-- Simon

[Forestidia86]

In case of utter urgence I have posted a solving replay here. But I really don't know if it's intended.

Edit: Was backroute; got fixed in the post below.

[Proxima]

This is quite a drastic change, but it may be the best way of doing it. I've put steel all along the top of the long platform in the middle.

[Simon]

Thanks, will use EyeNeedle from reply #14 in 0.9.4. I've added your covering replay to the replay database.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Edit: Was backroute; got fixed in the post below.

To be fair, your solution was so crazy and ingenious that I considered letting it stand as an alternative

[Proxima]

Compression Method 2: SI reduced to 8 to alleviate long wait. Second hatch added so the low SI doesn't make the first part more fiddly.

Replay attached.

[Simon]

Taken for 0.9.6.

-- Simon

[Forestidia86]

I don't want to take that away from Proxima, but since I made them:
Two proposals for a fix to "Path to Mahiman" with solving replays.

There should be maybe a look if they really do what they are supposed to do and if they don't introduce obvious backroutes.

The replays are basically the replay to the old level, maybe there should be a look if it is intended.

[Proxima]

I can't accept a fix that completely cuts off part of the maze. (Also, you got some of the pieces the wrong way round, so there were two blue pixels adjacent to each other ) The attached fix should do the job (and the old replay should still work).

[Simon]

Will include Proxima's fix in 0.9.7. It solves with the replay for <= 0.9.5 in the proof collection. Nonetheless, thanks, Forestidia, for taking initialitive in proposing fixes.

Also, this is test post for Mindless's IRC bot announcements.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Fix to Snowjump, with replay. This is a bit harder now so I'm thinking of bumping it up, along with Snowball Battle. Tentative reordering:

Q30 Snowball Battle -> C18
Q37 Snowjump -> C8
C4 Exit, Stage Right -> Q37
C8 Leap of Faith -> Q30
C18 Once You Pop, You Can't Stop! -> C4

[Simon]

I'll merge the fix to Snowjump.

With the reordering, I will wait until Proxima is happy with it in 1-2 weeks.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

The above reorderings are fine, and in addition, I want to reorder:

C14 A Soulful Bounding Leap -> D9
D9 Backslash -> D4
D4 A Towering Proposition -> C14

Also, fix for This Lix is Your Lix attached.

[Forestidia86]

D4 A Towering Proposition -> C14

I found this level actually quite tricky. What is with "Alternative Route Required"? This is one of two levels in the pack so far that I really found overranked.

[Proxima]

Yeesh, that level I never found the intended solution, and instead found a weird route using the trick of

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

dropping the crowd and using the knockback from an exploder to avoid them splatting.

[Simon]

Merged fix (add sawblade) for ThisLix.

I found this level [Towering Proposition] actually quite tricky. What is with "Alternative Route Required"? This is one of two levels in the pack so far that I really found overranked.

Yeesh, that level I never found the intended solution, and instead found a weird route using the trick of [...]

This doesn't answer the question whether ToweringProp or AltRouteReq moves. What level will move?

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Actually, after discussion in Wafflem's recent stream I'm considering downranking Stairs Bro instead of either of the above. What do you (Forestidia) think about that?

[Forestidia86]

Actually, after discussion in Wafflem's recent stream I'm considering downranking Stairs Bro instead of either of the above. What do you (Forestidia) think about that?

I personally got stuck in the Stairs level but that was only because I thought too complicated. The solution itself is not that bad so I think it is ok to downrank that level but maybe a higher Cunning number.

[Simon]

I agree to downranking StairsBro to late Cunning, as Forestitida suggests, and to move ToweringProp back to Daunting.

Furthermore, This Is a Stickup seems harder than early Daunting. I would move that to later Daunting. Has anybody else had so many problems with this level, too?

Based on all of Proxima's orderings above in the thread, I propose these changes.

-- Simon

[Forestidia86]

Furthermore, This Is a Stickup seems harder than early Daunting. I would move that to later Daunting. Has anybody else had so many problems with this level, too?

From the IRC:
[18:45] <Forestidia> Yeah, "This Is a Stickup" is a nasty level. One of the last I solved of that rank.

How I solved it, it was very finicky and I needed quite some time to find a working approach.

[Proxima]

Suggested changes are fine, but in addition:

D24 Round Trip -> D2
D2 Tribute to Benny Hill -> D13 (moving 14-23 up one place)

[Simon]

Reorderings up to here are implemented in 0.9.12. Thanks!

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Lovely 3 "Building Block Maze": increased SI to 50. Building takes time, so all lix still spawn before the route is complete. Slower spawn makes it easier to click on a lix facing the right direction, and if the player builds a < bridge towards the right exit, fewer will splat in the interval when the bridge is high enough but not yet connected, so the player does not feel under pressure (assuming they have understood how save requirement works by this stage).

We removed miners from L2 as they are not helpful there. Should we remove miners and diggers from L3 and L4 as well? Player might be confused when digger does nothing if assigned on the steel in L4. Digger is properly introduced in L8 "Climb to Freedom!", miner in L11 "Beneath the Lab". However, miner must be kept in L9 "Goblin City" for the 100% solution, and all skills should be present in L7 "Blocked by a Snowball" for the pattern.

[Simon]

Included in 0.9.13!

-- Simon

[Proxima]

This one wasn't too hard to fix.

[Simon]

I've earmarked the 2018-03-28 Waltzes for the next merge, especially since Forestidia found the intended route. I don't have much to show myself for the next version, therefore I had not yet planned a date. But I'll promise a next release on 2018-04-07 the lastest.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Backroute fix for Vicious/Down Among the Dead Lix. Removed one tile from the short platform directly above the exit.

[Simon]

Earmarked for next release. The old proofs still cover this DownAmong.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Another slight fix. Lowered some platforms so Forest's 3 bombers from the top-right no longer works.

[Simon]

This ("another slight fix") fails under the proof collection. I'll happily merge it once you give me a solving replay!

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Replay recorded on the new version.

[Simon]

Solves, thanks. Earmarked this DownAmong for next release.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Okay, one more slight change. I've lowered the long platform above the exit a little. My previous replay should still solve.

[Simon]

DownAmong from 2018-04-15 solves with existing replays, thanks. Earmarked for next release.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

From the Other Side: Enlarged the gap containing the fire object. Replay also attached.

[Simon]

Forestidia found this backroute in Get Hype (first attachment).

I fixed the backroute: Level file is 2nd attachment, image of this level is 3rd attachment. Existing replay in the replay collection still covers this. Forestidia then found the intended solution.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The backroute turns every lix in the first tree with an exploder.

The 3 trees have different treetops. This is necessary to fix an almost-backroute where the lixes get bunkered in the rightmost tree.

The intended route digs in the first tree to turn the last lix. This must remain possible. Forestidia's br1 turns everybody in this tree. This must be prevented. It's very delicate to allow one and not the other.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Fix for Two Towers / Continuum Hypothesis.

[Simon]

Fixes for CH earmarked for next release.

I'd like to reorder:
Feel the Pressure: Hopeless -> Daunting.
This is a Stickup: Daunting -> Vicious.
Evacuate the Sinking Ship: Vicious -> earlier Hopeless.

-- Simon

[Simon]

Concrete proposal for the rerankings of previous post:

• Feel the Pressure: Hopeless 13 -> insert as Daunting 9, before Merge Sort.
  
• This is a Stickup: Daunting 33 -> Vicious 15.
  
• Evacuate the Sinking Ship: Vicious 15 -> insert as Hopeless 7, before Crown Jewel Heist.
  

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Replay for Feel the Pressure attached. Intended/acceptable/backroute? I remember solving the Lemmix original without too much trouble (this level came from the very first forum contest), but the Lix version has a tighter save requirement and fixed spawn interval. It feels like mostly luck that the Lix emerge tightly grouped enough that only two die to the traps, so I wonder if I missed an intended trick to group them more tightly.

If my solution is acceptable, then yes, it's okay to move to early Daunting.

[Dullstar]

I haven't checked it in the latest version, but I didn't see anything in the changelogs since the last version I have suggesting it's been changed, so...

Lix Potion Number Nine in Lovely doesn't require any actions to solve (0.9.17)! Is this intentional?

Assuming it's not, it should be possible to fix it by increasing the required save count from 40 to 41, or by adding one additional trap.

[Proxima]

In old Lix, the SI was higher on that level so you had to realise that you could set the SI to 4 and just wait. When Simon got rid of variable SI, we discussed the level and he argued for changing the initial SI to 4 to leave this solution in. It's still surprisingly easy to overlook.

[Proxima]

Simon proposed to me that we adopt "Oblique Strategy" from mobius's set into the lemforum pack. After having solved the level, I like it and agree with the suggestion.

I suggest removing Daunting 19 "This is Too Much Stepping Stones" (which is honestly rather trivial) and inserting Oblique Strategy at the same place.

I'd like to replace the fennec hatches with sandstone hatches, since I prefer to use matching terrain, hatches and exit where possible.

Now that the "misc" folder exists, it would be a good idea to collect removed levels from lemforum and add them to one or more subfolders in misc, so that they don't disappear altogether.

One option is to have a subfolder for removed levels, like mobius's "Project Capybara" collection (we could even adopt that name?) Another possibility is to group levels by author, although some authors have only one or two levels to collect.

[Forestidia86]

I liked Oblique Strategy and think it should be part of the main pack as well. The question is if it is rather Vicious than Daunting.

I think it's good to have a folder for the culled levels, too. I've covered some of these levels in the current physics.

[Simon]

My hunch is to rank Oblique Strategy into Vicious, with late Daunting as second choice. But I haven't solved Oblique Strategy independently: While solving, I was discussing ideas with Forestidia, she had solved it herself already. Thus, I can't assess it neutrally.

I'm fine to cut either Stickup (nasty to execute) or Too Much Stepping Stones (looks very bland). I'd rank Oblique Strategy higher than Too Much Stepping Stones.

Proxima, only for completeness: What is your feeling about Dream the Impossible Dream? Forestidia told me that there are unfixable backroutes in it. Would Dream be a candidate for cutting too, or is it better -- even with the backroute -- than Stickup or Too Much Stepping Stones?

-- Simon

[mobius]

I found this solution to Elixir which saves 1 jumper skill. I am uncertain to the intended solution cause geoo modified the level later after I originally made it. I remember years ago being stumped and watching the replay and sort of being blown away.

edit: oh yeah I could just watch the replay right now.... I sort of don't want to; in case this is a backroute; I want to solve it myself.
Couldn't resist and I looked
So in

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

geoo's solution its very similar but he used the extra jumper *in place* of the climber so he has 1 climber left over.

I'm curious if anyone thinks one solution is harder to find than the other.

[Forestidia86]

I'm not sure if the save one jumper solution is much harder to find than the geoo one.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The save one jumper solution uses in some sense one trick more, the other one has therefore timing.

Elixir has quite a few variants of solutions but they all are in some sense similiar. So it depends on what the key mechanic is supposed to be to decide if all are acceptable variants.

[mobius]

I'm not sure if the save one jumper solution is much harder to find than the geoo one.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The save one jumper solution uses in some sense one trick more, the other one has therefore timing.

Elixir has quite a few variants of solutions but they all are in some sense similiar. So it depends on what the key mechanic is supposed to be to decide if all are acceptable variants.

really? Can you elaborate on those other variants?

[Forestidia86]

We discussed this some time ago in another thread. You asked about other solutions (than Proxima's) and in the course of the discussion I posted 4 solutions. (Post one with two solutions, Post two with two further solutions)
Possible that there is overlap with geoo's, Proxima's and what you posted but don't know anymore.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You can even exploit the flinging of the exploder to save a floater.

[mobius]

oh thanks! Sorry; totally forgot about all those replays.

It doesn't matter to me btw; the level seems good as is.

[Forestidia86]

Is Another Funeral underranked? I think it is fine in Cunning but could be Daunting, too. Maybe change with Round Trip?

[Simon]

Reason to uprank Another Funeral: I haven't solved Another Funeral after spending a total of 5 hours across several days. I've solved the next 5 levels. I'll see where I'll get stuck the next time.

I feel that Another Funeral (late Cunning) should uprank by 20-80 levels. But Forestidia thinks that Another Funeral should uprank to early Daunting at most, e.g., swapping with Round Trip, that would be upranking by 5 levels.

-- Simon

[Simon]

Solved Another Funeral with the intended route. Excellent puzzle, thanks to mobius for stumping me for a year!

I still believe that it should uprank by at least 20 levels. The early half of Daunting seems easier than Another Funeral. Possibly it should uprank by 40 to 60, but I'd have to revisit Vicious to compare.

Reasons, spoiling (click to show/hide)

The timings look at first like they won't work.

Many exciting ideas fall short only late during play. I had several wrong routes; given either an extra jumper, or an extra builder, or an extra digger would have easily salvaged the wrong routes.

The final guiding light for me was to question assumptions about where to use the 2 bashers. That's not an obvious skill to second-guess: You never run out of bashers, but wrong routes will always run out of something else.

-- Simon

[mobius]

thanks Simon for the many comments and the stream that got me thinking about this again.
Simon commented on difficulty of some levels; I'm fine with moving any of my levels as you see fit. I'm not good at judging the difficulty of my own.

I found the following levels substantially harder then their surrounding levels:

-Can't Reach it don't need it
-Land of Rainbows and unicorns

I thought 3.1.1.1.1 was quite a bit easier than it's position.

----------
-Lixes in Motion: I'm surprised this is placed this late in the game. Seems easier than this.

I found others but most of them are pretty subjective and since I haven't solved a lot of other levels around there either it's not great to judge before solving them.

----------

-Conundrum: If you're okay with changing titles; I think "Get Behind me, Satan" is a more memorable one for this level.

------------

Replacing levels: I can't find the thread right now where Simon mentioned I offer my level "Oblique Strategy" to replace a level. In any case; changing my mind about that maybe since this one uses a trick that another level in here uses pretty obliquely, no pun intended.

These two levels by Pieuw; The Last Laugh and Erbalunga and "Division of Labor"; both of these were based on levels by Pieuw who I only was getting to know at the time and in hindsight I picked some of his least best levels to showcase here. He has *much* more impressive levels to choose from than these... I'll gladly make some replacements for these. Division of Labor is only loosely based on his level, I've altered it significantly, not sure I'm all that happy with it.

Babylon Fading:
Strongly in favor of replace this level, it has little to nothing unique about it or anything I'm very impressed with. It ended up being a filler level in my own pack.

EDIT: - this level too; 6 gaps, five builders-- isn't all that great imo, kind of obvious what needs to happen, even for a beginner level, I might see if I have a better replacement.

Soulful Bounding Leap:
same as above, but I don't feel as strongly. I'm pretty sure I can come up with something better than this.

Passing Engagement;

The Great Escape: another

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

builder trick

, maybe I can find something more outstanding. [this was by tseug that I remade]

I will look at my own levels and a few lying around or Pieuw's and others that we put in Revenge of the Lemmings for instance and if any of these can get removed I'll try to find a level of similar difficulty. There are a handful of levels I've played in the past couple of years that blew me away and I think really deserve to be showcased here.

[Simon]

Conundrum: Will rename to Get Behind Me, Satan (with this exact capitalization) for the next release. Will keep it at its place, Vicious 2. I'm well-used to the name Conundrum for it, but it was a generic name indeed.

Lixes in Motion: Hmm, I don't find this so easy, I think it's properly ranked in mid-Daunting. What do others think?

Happy to cut Last Laugh. We need a replacement level then. I'm happy to put in anything you supply, and we can reorder accordingly.

Soulful Bounding Leap: I like this, and it's surprisingly hard. I wasn't able to re-solve it. I'd keep it, it's a candidate for slight uprank even. Forestidia found it hard, too.

3.1.1.1 I haven't solved yet, can't give feedback yet. At least it looks reasonably easy, yes.

geoo's Derailed and BOGOF #2 need upranking.

-- Simon

[Forestidia86]

Regarding "The Last Laugh"... going into a spoiler tag since I don't know whether Simon has solved it:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I don't know what the original version of the level was like, but considering the Lix version on its own merits: the trick of using the jumper-climber to keep a lix busy is a nice linchpin that doesn't appear elsewhere, and is very well-hidden on this level, making it satisfying to solve. I would definitely argue for keeping it even if this solution is nothing like what was originally intended.

fair enough. If people really like this level that much, then leave it as is. I am a bit doubtful of this; Simon played the level on stream the other day

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[and was on totally the wrong track, but seemed confident he could make it work; it was very fiddly, I don't like those kind of things in my levels.

but that may change when he solves it. IDK. I could make some alterations I suppose if that was appropriate but I don't feel like doing that in this case. Let's get some more input before making a final decision. I'll probably end up not doing anything with the level then.

I like The Last Laugh, too.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

But the other exit is reachable, see attachment in this post

[mobius]

I'll think about fixing The Last Laugh

this is from that other thread;

I have solved: Oh No, Not Again.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

My solution is very tight. I had the main idea relatively early but couldn't implement it until now. Could be a backroute though.

Edit Simon: I attached my solution too, this arose after massive counselling by Forestidia and is probably similar to hers.

Just thought I should point out that the original version (even with some modification to make it easier was the most hated level from feedback of ROTL. Several people gave the exact comment Foristidia does here and some even offered great disdain for the level. Obviously this version has differences but just putting that out there.

[Proxima]

You could fix The Last Laugh by moving the entire SE block, including the exit, 16 pixels right (all the way into the corner).

[mobius]

The Last Laugh; I made that fix. Also removed a basher.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hopefully the other exit looks possible but not *too* possible.

I don't like the idea of people spending a ton of frustrating time getting very very close to a solution that's not right.

Also update for Cornerstone.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

spoiler: the extra bashers can be used to stall and ease the timing. That could be intentional.

Some responses to Forestidia's replays:

Concerning "Stuff in the Way" (click to show/hide)

This is about managing the destructive as well as constructive skills and is in the end a timing issue. Saw the main problem rather fast, finding a solution for it lasted some time.

was that a yay or nay?

Your solution is close but misses one of the key elements of the solution. TBH; imo this level's solution is all about a tight time limit and precision and as such, not sure it really fits in the pack anymore. Don't know how to remove this backroute either.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

[adding a trap at the spot where she goes doesn't fix it]

------

reguarding: Five for Fighting... I'm debating altering this to enforce the solution to it's sister level, but that will make it harder(?) thus needing to be moved/upranked(?). RoundTheWheel liked this one a lot. (the harder version that is.)
<Forestidia commented on this level too but I lost the comment.>

------------
Theresa falls up the stairs: this level was plagued with backroutes.  @Simon have you solved it yet? Would you or anyone mind testing it sometime, I just have a feeling backroutes may remain. I have another level idea in mind which uses the same trick but looks quite a bit different, if the need be.

[Simon]

I haven't solved Theresa yet. Who else has?

Earmarked your Cornerstone and Last Laugh for Lix 0.10.2. Thanks!

-- Simon

[mobius]

Weeble solved Theresa intended. I guess I won't worry too much about it.

Some questions/suggestions regarding some random levels:
feel free to disagree, these are only minor adjustments based on feedback/watching replays and stuff.

-does "Hard to Port" feel tedious? 30 climbers is kind of a lot. I could try making everything a bit smaller and reduce lix count to cut back the tedium???

-I hadn't noticed the changes to "Path to Mahiman" until now, really nice!  It's much better puzzle now. Suggestion: change title to "The Lixyrinth" (Lemmyrinth was the original title, I don't know why I wanted to change that honestly. Another one of those dumb decisions I made...

-Regarding Gr8 Escape: Weeble had quite a time playing this level, maybe we should keep this one?
My thinking for removal was; Gr8 Escape is a challenging level no doubt. But I am bit surprised people have a real hard time with it nowawadays. Really

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

there's one baisc trick and once you see that/if you know it the levels not bad at all.

Where as I think Shvegait's level is of similar nature but less "trick" and more some logical pathing necessary.

-Narbacular Drop; added an unnecessary runner to ease timing, would this add a backroute? I doubt it; decoration embellished a bit. No change to the solution.

-tiny backroute fix for Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix, found by weeble I think

[Simon]

Earmarked Tinker Tailor and Narbacular Drop for 0.10.2. Thanks for re-covering the backroute fix!

Hard to Port: If we want to ease execution, my first hunch is to reduce lix and widen the spawn interval. But a second interesting idea might be to lengthen the starting platform: When only 3 lix fit on it, you'll have to return every 3 spawns to assign climbers, whereas when ~8 lix fit on it, you can assign 7 climbers while paused, then return to the main work for a longer while.

Path to Mahiman: Yes, wonderful puzzle. The renaming feels ad-hoc, let's sleep over it. If you'd still like to rename it in a few days, we can do it. Probably won't make it into 0.10.2 anymore then, but I'm open to do it afterwards.

-- Simon

[Simon]

mobius replied to my previous post with:

Hard to Port
Path to Mahiman

The more I think about it the less I feel like doing so I'll likely *not* go ahead on this and some of my other suggestions. I'll just try to cover the most glaring issues.

All right, sounds good with me.

Let's keep this topic for backroute fixes only. I've split the considerations for full level outtakes/replacements off into Lemforum outtakes/replacements, 0.10.x .

-- Simon

[mobius]

nice. I was actually going to suggest we make a new topic to keep it more organized.

And instead of just dumping levels in the topic I will actually try to find an appropriate replacement for whatever level I suggest for removal.

[mobius]

fix for Five for Fighting,
Forestidia's comment was this seemed easy for its position, maybe now it will feel right. This was, in fact, my original intention for the level but at the time it was backrouted and I didn't feel like or didn't see a way to fix it. As she pointed out I have since done so with my NeoLemmix version, see if this holds up.

I have more comments to go through at some point but I don't expect there to be many more requests or changes.

[Simon]

Thanks! geoo's Five for Fighting replay from 2017 fails for your fix. Please re-cover your fixed version with the intended route.

I'm getting 0.10.2 ready to publish. If I don't get your cover in time,

I've just published 0.10.2. Your backroute fix will simply go into 0.10.3 as soon as it's covered. Given all the busywork around lemforum, that won't be a long delay.

-- Simon

[mobius]

sorry for forgetting to upload the replay with it.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

runners are not needed but there to make timing easier. Hopefully this doesn't allow backroutes.

some comments after watching Raymond's replay:

He solved Soulful Bounding Leap kind of weirdly but I don't mind this. I can't even remember exactly what the intended solution was but it's fine. I'm more concerned if it felt fiddly or annoying. And the fact that when he was trying to jump on top of the blocker; it looked like it should've worked several times when it didn't. Don't really understand that. [this isn't a problem with this level per say, but how jumpers or blockers work???]

regarding some other levels like Slipping which has come up a bunch lately; I'm okay with multiple solutions here; still looks good to me.

[Simon]

Thanks, yes, your replay solves it. I've earmarked Five for Fighting for 0.10.3.

Soulful Bounding Leap can lead to precision with jumping onto blockers. See the attached replay for a solution that uses only 1 out of the 4 jumpers. It feels like a backroute. The jumper/blocker physics of course are up for discussion, I have no good offer even for what should theoretically happen.

-- Simon

[mobius]

Thanks, yes, your replay solves it. I've earmarked Five for Fighting for 0.10.3.

Soulful Bounding Leap can lead to precision with jumping onto blockers. See the attached replay for a solution that uses only 1 out of the 4 jumpers. It feels like a backroute. The jumper/blocker physics of course are up for discussion, I have no good offer even for what should theoretically happen.

-- Simon

the thing is; I never had a specific solution in mind when making that level; only the layout. IMO it's okay with multiple solutions, in any case I don't feel like fixing it.

Ramon also solved a few other levels, like Duality slightly differently but I'm okay with all of them.

<dumb rant, dang ramond was streaming earlier today and I missed it!!>

[Proxima]

Some fixes after Ramond's and Simon's streams.

[Simon]

Thanks!

The old proof replay for Down Among the Dead Lix doesn't cover your fix. As soon as we have a proof for that, I'll earmark your fixes for 0.10.4. Put Your Lix on Ice is also technically unproven now, but I can easily cover that myself.

Tonight at 18:00 UTC (4 hours after this post), I'll attempt to solve these backroute fixes on livestream. We can use my replays as proof if you deem it acceptable, or you can submit your own proof. Edit Simon: Outcome was: Down Among, I still had a backroute.

-- Simon

[geoo]

Fix for All Aboard the Pain Train.

[mobius]

lol Ramond "backrouted" The Last Laugh yet again.

edit: I realized that simply changing the bomber to non-fling imploder would work but idk... his solution is honestly kind of creative, I'd still be okay with leaving it in.

I'm wondering now actually, with increasing certainty that this is another part of the reason I decided to trash the level way back when, not because I didn't like it for the reasons I mentioned below but because of backrouting issues. In any case; I don't feel like fixing it anymore.

[Simon]

Proxima: Please re-cover Down Among the Dead Lix, I don't have a proof for your 2022-12-22 version. But even better: First fix the backroute from my stream, then re-cover.

geoo: Reminder that Pain Train from 2022-12-22 has the backroute with landing on the bottom-right corner of the steel, on the inside.

I doubt that I can finish 0.10.4 during the weekend. You'll all have >= 1 week for these things. Reason: I'd like to submit at least one Lix level to Icho's contest, and I haven't built anything apart from loose drawings on paper. Thus, this upcoming weekend, I'll have to build levels first, and work on the engine second. All good with me, the work on Lix continues to be pure bliss, as it has been since end of November.

I've just made Stickup less precise: It's now easier to close the gap beneath the laser using a platfomer. The steel is closer to the middle of the level. This removes a need for frame-perfect precision ("digger at 118"). geoo's proof replay doesn't need the moved steel and still covers my change here.

-- Simon

[Simon]

Proxima: For Down Among the Dead Lix, can you submit the backroute fix & proof replay until Sunday (tomorrow), so I can release Lix 0.10.4 after the multiplayer session on Sunday evening? Otherwise, I'll put your fix from 2022-12-22-morning into 0.10.4, which doesn't fix my reapplied backroute from 2022-12-22-evening, but it's still the newest version and maybe it fixes something from Ramond. Further fixes will then go into 0.10.5, which should ship in a few weeks. With all the work that's getting done, we can release frequently.

geoo has submitted (via github, not here) a fix and a proof for Pain Train, I've built a level contest entry, and I have a releaseable insert mode option. Insert mode isn't perfect yet, but it's enough to warrant a release of 0.10.4, and 0.10.4 should come ASAP because of all the backroute fixes that we already have.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Down Among the Dead Lix: Easy fix, just moved that small platform even further to the right, also shrunk it since that looks better now.

The Hotel in Hell: Not a fan of how this fix looks, but it should be functional, and partly covering up the trap wasn't a good look in the first place.
[EDIT: Replaced the trap with the 10-ton trap, which maybe combines with the laser a bit better?]

[Simon]

Thanks! Earmarked these fixes for 0.10.4. I've added your PM'd replay to Down Among to the proof collection, and now 0.10.4 is fully covered.


The Hotel in Hell: Hmm, I'm not too fond of my 10-ton weight's old pixel art. It's the first attached picture.

I'd would recommend to keep the squisher trap. That will also match the style of the other squishers in the level. I have a proposed fix. I've attached a screenshot of the fix (and I've also attached the level for completeness). Should we use this proposal for 0.10.4? The replay collection proves this fix solvable.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

That's a good idea, thank you.

[Simon]

Thanks for the quick reply! Then I'll use the horizontal laser with the squisher, and it's already covered by your 2016 replay. Excellent, then all loose ends are tied together for 0.10.4.

Lix 0.10.4 will release tomorrow.

-- Simon

[mobius]

my simple fix for Tinker Tailor Soldier Lix was too simple; Raymond backrouted it even worse. Attached a (hopefully) better fix, and replay.

[mobius]

and another fix for Theresa falls up the stairs. At one earlier version this second entrance existed and it was removed to fix another backroute, but I *think* that was before the protrusion in the wall existed, so maybe this will be okay???

[chaos_defrost]

Watching Ramon's playthough, earmarking backroute fixes for Wait Why is There a Tree and (oddly), Chasm.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Chasm's intended route is exactly as Ramon played it. I found something that skips the cuber on the bottom, which is part of how I wrote this level. I think the fix isn't too tough (Ramon's route should work while my backroute shoudn't) and that this won't change the level difficulty relative to other levels in the pack.

[Simon]

Earmarked Theresa for 0.10.5. Thanks for fixing and covering it!

mobius: Tinker Tailor still has the same backroute even with your fix from 2023-01-17. Find my replay attached.

Proposals for chaos_defrost (click to show/hide)

I propose these two backroute fixes for your Chasm and WhyTree.

For WhyTree, you described exactly what you wanted. I've put the 3rd rim as high as possible: You can reach it with a single builder from the top of the red bricks, and the builder's last slab connects exactly to the rim's bottom from below. I'll include this WhyTree fix unless you object explicitly.

For Chasm, it's a feeble guess, I won't include it unless you tell me that it's okay.

-- Simon

[chaos_defrost]

Those both look good, thanks! The changes to both remove the found backroutes while keeping in the intended ones.

[Simon]

Earmarked the steel-less Tinker Tailor from 2016-07-29 20:35:22 for Lix 0.10.5. This re-opens a small backroute by Wibble (I forgot details, there is a forum thread elsewhere) which mobius considers less of a problem than Ramond's backroute.

Earmarked both of my fixes for Chasm and Wait Why Is There a Tree for Lix 0.10.5. Thanks for the feedback!

-- Simon

[Simon]

For 0.10.5, I propose this backroute fix for Division of Labor. It's a single triangle added in the background, see screenshot.

This prevents a lucky right-facing basher from cancelling directly before the basher reaches the diagonal shaft. Now, the basher will see enough pixels that the basher decides to continue. The diagonal shaft will still open from bashing and then kill left-facing walkers.

Edit: Earmarking this fix for 0.10.5. I didn't get feedback, but it seems sensible to me. The terrain looks nice and the fix prevents my backroute. If you don't want it, let me know, and I'll remove it in 0.10.6 or beyond.

-- Simon

[mobius]

I agree with Ramond that behavior looks very odd.

Either one of two things should be true:
1) the basher keeps going until he falls into the gap and (presumably a] stops bashing, or b] continues to bash at a lower level OR
2) she shouldn't be able to bash that in the first place

-----------

I'll try to take a closer look at the level in question. There's nothing I have to add; the fix looks fine to me.

----
Changed my mind and I've fixed The Last Laugh

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

OK can anybody get to the other exit now? ? ?

same replay should work

[Simon]

Thanks, earmarked Divison of Labor and The Last Laugh for 0.10.5. Indeed, everything is covered with existing replays.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

C20 Come on Down to My Place: remove 1 bomber and 1 blocker

[Simon]

Earmarked Come on Down to My Place with imploders 2-> 1 and blockers 3->2 for 0.10.6. All right.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

Hopeless changes:

The Continuum Hypothesis: Walkers, imploders, blockers all 2 -> 1. Solving replay is attached.

Eye of the Needle: removed comments; this level is discussed in its own topic

[Simon]

The Continuum Hypothesis: Walkers, imploders, blockers all 2 -> 1.

Earmarked for 0.10.18, and I've added your replay to the proof collection. Thanks!

-- Simon