Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] NepsterLems  (Read 15078 times)

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Offline Akseli

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NepsterLems
« Reply #75 on: August 09, 2018, 07:41:00 pm »
Another pack I'm revisiting now in new formats, I beta tested NepsterLems in January 2016 and played it to some extent after the initial release if I'm deriving my replay time stamps correctly. Now after loads of backroute fixes I've solved 79/111, replays attached. This is the first time I played Moon levels 7-15, they looked a bit daunting at first but turned out to be a lot nicer in the end. I didn't attempt Black Hole levels, because I have still 12 levels unsolved before that final rating, but I still thought of dropping my solutions at this point so they're at least saved here in the forums before my hard drive dies or something. :b

Levels I suspect backrouting: Planet 16: Dying Dream, Neutron Star 10: Broken Pillars, Neutron Star 16: On the Edge of Death

Not quite sure about even some early Planet levels, I'm interested to hear about my solutions when the time comes.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NepsterLems
« Reply #76 on: August 21, 2018, 02:04:01 pm »
Okay, I revisited just the final level (Black Hole 21) - pretty much exactly one year after my first attempt - after having been told by Nepster that he doesn't consider it a "good level" (anymore? ;) ) and about his philosophy having changed.

I actually think it's pretty genious - there's always even more skills which are locked in the place where they have to be used than one would think :thumbsup: . As far as X-of-everything levels are concerned, this is as good as they're going to get!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

The only thing that makes it "not a good level" is the RIDICULOUS pixel precision required all over it! :devil:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've attached to replays, both centered around the core issue of how to deal with the pillars at the exit. As far as I can tell, I did exactly what IchoTolot did at this place...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I know from my own levels that pixel precision can be unintended, but in the last level of a pack, I doubt it ;) . Since this is the type of pixel precision that can prevent a solution from being successful even when it's conceptually correct, I have to object to IchoTolot's praise of this level as a prime example of "fair" difficulty.
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NepsterLems
« Reply #77 on: August 21, 2018, 03:10:15 pm »
Quote
Since this is the type of pixel precision that can prevent a solution from being successful even when it's conceptually correct, I have to object to IchoTolot's praise of this level as a prime example of "fair" difficulty.

I think you don't understand what I personally define as "fair".

Pixel precision is fair, even if you have to rewind all of the level due to an unprecise mistake. Is it good? Certainly not, we want to prevent these things.
Is a timer unfair that cuts tons of solutions of by 1 second? No, but it's still bad.

I call levels unfair that actively hide stuff from the players eye. Hidden traps, hidden pick-up-skills etc.

Overall my praise to the level partly comes from a developed automated optimisation playstyle. Over the years I got used to automatically find and go for an ~optimal route, purely in terms of reaching the goal. This isn't always the intended one of course and it's only optimal in my current view of the level.
That way I don't mind having to do a bunch of very precise actions, as a bunch of them I do intuitively.
Does it anger me when I have to rewind a lot? Yes and I will criticise it.
Does it anger me when there is an excessive ammount of very precise actions? At some threshhold yes and I will point that out.

Also I learned to use the things at my disposal (skill shadows, save-states) to nullify the precision and rewinding to an ammount. Well placed save-states at critical points in time and making good use of replay insert can help quite a bit.
 
It's also the general layout of the level that made me forgive the faults and I can highly advertise those for your huge levels:
- Mostly contained crowds (only 1 active crowd would be optimal and if there are more active ones let them be close)
- No timer
- No extensive need for multitasking
- You only have to watch 1 area at the same time. --> less scrolling
These traits fit for this level, therefore making me forgive the precision.

In the end I just loved puzzeling my way through this level while doing stuff as optimised as possible.
+ The fact that it's the last boss level of a very difficult pack makes me somewhat more forgiving, but still there is a threshhold for that. ;)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NepsterLems
« Reply #78 on: August 21, 2018, 04:16:29 pm »
Quote
It's also the general layout of the level that made me forgive the faults and I can highly advertise those for your huge levels:
- Mostly contained crowds (only 1 active crowd would be optimal and if there are more active ones let them be close)
- No timer
- No extensive need for multitasking
- You only have to watch 1 area at the same time. --> less scrolling
These traits fit for this level, therefore making me forgive the precision.

Thanks for the advice! ;) All those things happen to be the case for most of my levels from Lemmings World Tour already, though. Of course, the players are always free to bring multitasking on themselves :D , but especially in "The Grand Puzzle", which took a lot of inspirations from "Final Frustration", the crowds are usually easily containable as well. Contrary to late Mayhem levels, it's not that there aren't enough blockers to contain all the different crowds - it's the question of how to free all those blockers in the end again, because everyone has to be saved (or, in case of "The Grand Puzzle", you're only allowed 1 death).

That's also the reason why attempting a level like "Final Frustration" is more fun to me than timing-based levels with deliberately oddly-shaped terrain where crowd control is next to impossible.

Still, the rewinding is mainly a pain in combination with the overall duration of the level. It's not the duration per se, nor is it the fact of having to rewind due to pixel precision, but the combination of both makes things exponentially worse ;) . With every restart, you're sitting there for quite a while holding down the space bar until you arrive back at the time stamp your currently working on. Or you're asking yourself "What's faster at this point - rewinding in 1-second-steps, or starting from the beginning in 10-second-steps?" :D

I already saved several replays manually (since the two I attached were ultimately not successful, i.e. not automatically saved). Replay editing helps, but at one point when I edited out a specific skill and left the rest as it was, a builder still ended up being misplaced.
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Nepster

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NepsterLems
« Reply #79 on: August 21, 2018, 05:20:43 pm »
I actually think it's pretty genious - there's always even more skills which are locked in the place where they have to be used than one would think :thumbsup: . As far as X-of-everything levels are concerned, this is as good as they're going to get!
I am very happy you liked the level. But that doesn't alter the fact, that my own taste changed...

The only thing that makes it "not a good level" is the RIDICULOUS pixel precision required all over it! :devil:
Sorry, but most of the precision is self-inflicted.
1) There is actually not a single place, where lemmings have to step up more than 4 pixels, as long as you don't care about the talisman.
2) There is actually no fall, that requires something close to the maximal fall height.
3) While basher-digger-staircases do help, my own solution uses just two steps like this.
4) Given that the miner-shadows now take blockers into account, placing them to free blockers is fairly easy.
Yes, of course you can do all of that, but removing the possibility of doing this (or at least trying to do) is simply beyond my designing skills in such a 20-of-everything level.

I've attached to replays, both centered around the core issue of how to deal with the pillars at the exit. As far as I can tell, I did exactly what IchoTolot did at this place...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I know from my own levels that pixel precision can be unintended, but in the last level of a pack, I doubt it ;).
Pixel precision is never put there on purpose. It might be, that I simply couldn't avoid it or that I failed miserably to discourage pixel-precise attempts. But I certainly never left it in there, just to make the level harder or to annoy my players - and for this it doesn't make any difference, whether the level is the very first or very last level in the pack.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] NepsterLems
« Reply #80 on: August 21, 2018, 05:52:50 pm »
Thanks for the reply, Nepster! ;)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels